Analyzing Character Reactions[Some SoD Spoilers]

[RndmNumGen]

Alright, well I was reading through Start of Darkness again, and I noticed something at the end of the book when Xykon tells "Don't confuse me not caring with not knowing". That made me think back to when Right-Eye first left, and when Xykon was asking Redcloak about why he was yelling 'Brother!" and then sort of left it with that? Does that mean that Xykon knew that Right-Eye left, but didn't really care?

If so, why did Xykon coerce Right-Eye into joining back up later? Was it because Right-Eye challenged Xykon, which he didn't lick and wanted to get back to him? When Right-Eye's family was killed, did Xykon do that on purpose just to torment him for that?

----

Second minor semi-related point, but was the reason Miko was so determined the Order of the Stick was evil because Roy rejected her? Thinking with emotions instead of logic?

[Larkspur]

Does that mean that Xykon knew that Right-Eye left, but didn't really care?

I'd say it could go either way, but it doesn't really matter, because:


why did Xykon coerce Right-Eye into joining back up later?

The answer to this question is unrelated. Xykon coerced Right-Eye to join up because he needed troops. Had Redcloak been in some other goblin village, Xykon would have impressed them instead. It's Redcloak he needed and Redcloak he went looking for, not Right-Eye; Right-Eye was just unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Right-Eye never really hurt Xykon; he never contributed much to the cause and he disappeared at a time when Xykon didn't need manpower anyway. I doubt Xykon felt slighted enough by his departure to bear a grudge. Likewise standing by and letting his family die- he would have done that to anyone.

Part of Xykon's whole "not caring" schtick is not really caring about his enemies. He's not even interested in vengeance on Roy, who destroyed his body and cost Team Evil a gate. Right-Eye is comparatively innocent. Xykon is mad (unknowingly) at the MitD because even totally reasonable people get irate when their kills are stolen, and he was kind of pissy with Lirian for indirectly causing his lichification, but in general he's not a vengeful guy.


Second minor semi-related point, but was the reason Miko was so determined the Order of the Stick was evil because Roy rejected her? Thinking with emotions instead of logic?

Well, the bigger problem was probably Belkar, but that certainly didn't help. Remember, Miko is the distilled embodiment of all that is right and virtuous, so by rejecting her, Roy was explicitly rejecting Good.

[Kurald Galain]

Second minor semi-related point, but was the reason Miko was so determined the Order of the Stick was evil because Roy rejected her? Thinking with emotions instead of logic?

It is as they say: Hell hath exactly as much fury...

[NerfTW]

Second minor semi-related point, but was the reason Miko was so determined the Order of the Stick was evil because Roy rejected her? Thinking with emotions instead of logic?

No. Miko did not display anything remotely relating to attraction to Roy, simply a "maybe someday" brush off. She thought the Order was evil because they ran around with Belkar, was originally told they were evil by Shojo, knows Belkar murdered a guard and then was seen out of prison conspiring with Shojo about fooling the paladins, and because Xykon showed up alive when they claimed he was dead.

Not to mention Roy originally showing up as evil when she cast detect evil. The crown was a good explanation, but with everything else, she probably began to doubt the crown story.

[RndmNumGen]

Huh. I suppose it could have just been that Xykon needed troops then... I sort of supposed there was something else to it, though. Originally, Xykon was only retrieving Redcloak, and only made the orges round up the other goblins after Right-Eye stood up to him... but then again, he might have done that anyway.

As far as Miko goes, I was wondering for two reasons: The first being that she did express interest in perusing such a relationship right before Roy rejected her, and then later, always was saying stuff such as "Roy and his Order of the Stick" being evil and escaping without justice, not "Belkar and the rest of that order". I dunno, it just seemed that the way she worded it, she held a grudge against Roy personally.

[Marnath]

As far as Miko goes, I was wondering for two reasons: The first being that she did express interest in perusing such a relationship right before Roy rejected her, and then later, always was saying stuff such as "Roy and his Order of the Stick" being evil and escaping without justice, not "Belkar and the rest of that order". I dunno, it just seemed that the way she worded it, she held a grudge against Roy personally.

Probably because he's the leader, and by most laws everything is the leader's fault.

[Ancalagon]

Does that mean that Xykon knew that Right-Eye left, but didn't really care?

I think yes. Right-Eye had no meaning at all to him. None. He was just some other goblin.


If so, why did Xykon coerce Right-Eye into joining back up later? Was it because Right-Eye challenged Xykon, which he didn't lick and wanted to get back to him?

I think for three reasons:
A) To make Redcloak feel miserable and to have a lever over Redcloak, should he need it.
B) Because Right-Eye was there and because Xykon could. It was basically an evil act. To get a bit less simple than that: Xykon recruited all goblins around, why should he make an exception for Right-Eye.
C) Literally as Xykon said: He dislikes Happy Endings and thus had to destroy all happiness he could find.


When Right-Eye's family was killed, did Xykon do that on purpose just to torment him for that?

Nah. I think he did not care. Not at all. He just wanted to see something die. You did notice people of all kinds around Xykon tend to die? ;)



Second minor semi-related point, but was the reason Miko was so determined the Order of the Stick was evil because Roy rejected her? Thinking with emotions instead of logic?

Oh no, not another Miko debate... *sigh* Anyway... I think Miko was better than that. She was annoying, misguided and everything, but I doubt this was a motive.
Roy's unnecessary harsh rejection DID cause some damage, though. Let's not fool ourselves here that Roy was an utter jerk in that situation and that things might have went different if they would not ventured into a relationship but stayed on a personal level of respect. Miko lost all respect she had for Roy and that surely wasn't a good thing.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Related to “Don’t confuse not caring with not knowing:”

Don’t confuse putting off with not caring.

It’s possible Xykon did care just a little about Right-Eye leaving, but he just had higher priorities.

But I don’t think Xykon really did care about Right-Eye beyond him being potential leverage over Redcloak.

[Zevox]

I'd say most of what has been posted thus far is pretty on-target.


Part of Xykon's whole "not caring" schtick is not really caring about his enemies. He's not even interested in vengeance on Roy, who destroyed his body and cost Team Evil a gate. Right-Eye is comparatively innocent. Xykon is mad (unknowingly) at the MitD because even totally reasonable people get irate when their kills are stolen, and he was kind of pissy with Lirian for indirectly causing his lichification, but in general he's not a vengeful guy.
This in particular. That part of the quote we're reacting to here says outright that Xykon doesn't care about things is something worth keeping in mind. Xykon's priorities are basically just his own amusement and completion of The Plan, because of what he thinks it will bring him. If it doesn't directly and significantly interfere with those, he's not going to care. Heck, even some things that merely temporarily set him back on those don't really phase him, as seen with Roy - he can't even remember his name even though he managed to destroy his body and cost him one of the Gates. He's a very laid-back type of guy in general, mostly because he's so damn powerful that he can afford to be.

Someone really needs to hit a nerve with him to make him vengeful. The only times he's really gotten that irate that we've seen is with Redcloak and Right-Eye after finding out he couldn't taste cofee as a Lich, at V and O-Chul after they made him lose his phylactery, and just in general after those two vanished into thin air. And even the latter two of those will probably vanish with time, they just really pissed him off at the time they happened.

Zevox

[Larkspur]

Xykon's priorities are basically just his own amusement and completion of The Plan

And even with the latter he's just doing it for the lulz.

People who are serious about ruling the world come up with their own Plan; they don't wait for some random goblin to stumble into their lap.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not to mention Roy originally showing up as evil when she cast detect evil. The crown was a good explanation, but with everything else, she probably began to doubt the crown story.
Eh, I think she still believed it. It came from Durkon, whom she trusted up until the end of the trial.

I think what really set Miko off (even more than their association with Belkar) was Roy's entire speech regarding how much she sucks. After all, she did think she was "special" and being told the opposite is bound to make her crazy.

However, it is worth noting that when she mentions he could've had a chance had he went about things differently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html), it is one of the few times we see her happy. However, it is definitely not what made her hate the OOTS.

[Zevox]

And even with the latter he's just doing it for the lulz.

People who are serious about ruling the world come up with their own Plan; they don't wait for some random goblin to stumble into their lap.
Well, more because he decided he wanted a "legacy," actually. Though perhaps now that he's immortal that's changed to a just "for the lulz" motivation.

Zevox

[Detrinex]

Eh, I think she still believed it. It came from Durkon, whom she trusted up until the end of the trial.

I think what really set Miko off (even more than their association with Belkar) was Roy's entire speech regarding how much she sucks. After all, she did think she was "special" and being told the opposite is bound to make her crazy.

However, it is worth noting that when she mentions he could've had a chance had he went about things differently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html), it is one of the few times we see her happy. However, it is definitely not what made her hate the OOTS.

It pretty much began with Elan screwing up with the gate, the OotS trying to fight her, the inn getting blown up because of their various gaffes, Roy's being detected falsely as evil, Belkar being obviously evil, and then a misunderstanding with Shojo that ultimately ended in Xykon and Redcloak successfully escaping from, oddly enough, the very person that Miko swore to serve under and protect the gate sealed by Soon's companions.

[jidasfire]

Apropos of nothing except characterization gleaned from Start of Darkness, I didn't get the impression that Xykon either forgot about Fyron or killed five people by that name in a week. That would make sense based on the facade Xykon presents to the world, which is that he's a simple-minded silly villain. But I think he remembered the situation full well, and only pretended not to in order to take away Roy's dramatic moment. It fits with his general MO of psychological humiliation and torture in addition to overwhelming force.

[factotum]

Actually, I can easily believe Xykon genuinely forgot about killing Fyron. He seems to remember stuff he cares about, and stuff that might be important to him, but killing Fyron wasn't either--he just did it to get a cool-looking non-magical crown!

[Nimrod's Son]

The answer to this question is unrelated. Xykon coerced Right-Eye to join up because he needed troops. Had Redcloak been in some other goblin village, Xykon would have impressed them instead. It's Redcloak he needed and Redcloak he went looking for
Much as I agree that Xykon didn't care about Right-Eye, and much as I don't go in for speculation, I can't shake the feeling that Xykon cared enough about Redcloak (for whatever reason) that he would note his relationship with Right-Eye. Specifically, that when Right-Eye left he half-expected Redcloak to go looking for him, and planned for that eventuality with a mind on precisely what happened at the end of SoD.

No proof for it whatsoever, of course, but I still think Xykon's "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing" is too often tossed around as a convenient example of his "badassness" but not often enough of an actual threat he poses in the future...


Heck, even some things that merely temporarily set him back on those don't really phase him, as seen with Roy - he can't even remember his name even though he managed to destroy his body and cost him one of the Gates.
Again, I can well believe that Xykon knows full well what's going on here - he just enjoys the reaction he's getting by pretending he can't remember.

Put simply, I'd be very surprised if Xykon doesn't have at least one more big moment of "HA! I knew more than you thought I knew!" before the story's done.

So naturally, I'm suspicious. :smallsmile:

[Ancalagon]

he just did it to get a cool-looking non-magical crown!

I think the crown is more to him. Not much, but he clearly recognised it when Roy brought it to him.
He probably really does not care about Fyron, why should he know his name? Xykon probably only knows "Crown taken from Mage in Cliffport like... hum... long ago".

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Again, I can well believe that Xykon knows full well what's going on here - he just enjoys the reaction he's getting by pretending he can't remember.
Except Xykon doesn’t seem to remember, even when in private company.

[Larkspur]

when Right-Eye left he half-expected Redcloak to go looking for him, and planned for that eventuality with a mind on precisely what happened at the end of SoD.

But of course Redcloak didn't go looking for Right-Eye, not until his obligations to Xykon were discharged. If Xykon was concerned about that, it would be based on a misreading of Redcloak's character- his loyalty to the Plan comes first, but even more than that, he's got two fairly compelling reasons not to go after Right-Eye. 1) For a revolutionary cleric Redcloak is oddly willing to let Right-Eye make his own choices. When they argue it's always Right-Eye telling Redcloak what to do; Redcloak never tries to convert Right-Eye. 2) Given that they're going to argue anyway, he'd rather not have Right-Eye around. We see the ultimate manifestation of this at the end of SoD, when Redcloak deliberately allows him to die rather than deal with him, but it was presumably true earlier as well.

Given how he handled him at the end of SoD, I'm guessing Xykon knows Redcloak well enough not to worry about nonexistent threats. (He's also weirdly reluctant to use other people as hostages against Redcloak- he's only done it once, in the coffee meltdown, but it would have been a much more effective punishment for say, losing the phylactery. Even Tsukiko knows to do it, so I can't believe Xykon doesn't realize he can.)

[jidasfire]

Given how he handled him at the end of SoD, I'm guessing Xykon knows Redcloak well enough not to worry about nonexistent threats. (He's also weirdly reluctant to use other people as hostages against Redcloak- he's only done it once, in the coffee meltdown, but it would have been a much more effective punishment for say, losing the phylactery. Even Tsukiko knows to do it, so I can't believe Xykon doesn't realize he can.)

That's a rather good point about the hostages thing. If I had to guess what it's about, it's the fact that Xykon wants Redcloak to think, at least most of the time, that he is an ally rather than a hostage himself. If Xykon has to constantly play hardball against Redcloak, the goblin may start to see the two of them as enemies rather than allies, and since Redcloak is a pretty good critical thinker for a religious and political fanatic, Xykon might soon find himself dealing with a rebellion. Better, then, to chip away at Redcloak in little matters, and punish him using his own guilt rather than brute force. And if he does need to use brute force, best to do it through a subordinate like Tsukiko, whom Redcloak is predisposed to hate anyway. For now, Xykon still needs Redcloak. He knows the secrets of the Gates, he's powerful, and he's quite loyal to the cause. It's easier to keep him around than replace him with someone weaker and less predictable. Of course, that doesn't mean Xykon won't have the occasional bit of fun with him, or rein him in when he gets uppity, but for his own convenience, he's seen where the limits are, and he stays just below them.

[Nilan8888]

Roy's unnecessary harsh rejection DID cause some damage, though. Let's not fool ourselves here that Roy was an utter jerk in that situation and that things might have went different if they would not ventured into a relationship but stayed on a personal level of respect. Miko lost all respect she had for Roy and that surely wasn't a good thing.

I have another take on that.

I think Miko and Roy were clearly never going to be together. Even though Miko takes note of Roy's 'enlightened' attitude -- which was an improvement because Roy had been interested in Miko for the wrong reasons -- I have my doubts that what she is saying is truly on the level. Yes, what she says is reasonable: but words are cheap -- it's one thing to say it and another thing to live it. No matter if Roy was approaching her differently, she isn't mentioning there how even if Roy has changed from his recent experiences... Miko herself hasn't changed at all.

I think Roy's rejection did have an effect. It wasn't because of any TRUE affection or even subconscious attraction. It was becuase of 2 things:

1. She was being denied something she felt she still had every right to be offered
2. Fear of the element of truth in what Roy said

Roy was in the wrong somewhat for his harsh words becuase he really should have been saying this all along and he sort of dropped all his resentment on her in one shot. Had he been less amicable to her beforehand, this wouldn't have been such a shock to the system.

But Miko isn't to be coddled. If she wasn't well aware that this sort of thing could happen by not being a little more accomodating, she should have been. She spent her time alientating the order rather than trying to get along.

So yes -- I do think Roy's rejection had a subconscious effect going forward, but not for romantic reasons.

[Zevox]

Again, I can well believe that Xykon knows full well what's going on here - he just enjoys the reaction he's getting by pretending he can't remember.
If he were just doing that around Roy I might say that's a possibility, but I'm pretty sure I recall an instance where he acted that way around Redcloak as well, and he can't very well expect to get much reaction out of Redcloak by pretending not to remember Roy (and he didn't). Having trouble finding it just now, but hey, there's hundreds of comics to sort through.

And in any event, the fact remains that he doesn't seem particularly to care about Roy or vengeance for the setback he gave him. He was even offering to let him go during their last encounter so Roy could come back later when he was stronger and they could have a proper hero vs villain battle.

Zevox

[factotum]

If he were just doing that around Roy I might say that's a possibility, but I'm pretty sure I recall an instance where he acted that way around Redcloak as well

Strip #371, perchance? He forgot Roy's name in front of both Redcloak and Miko in that one, neither of whom were likely to care much about it.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Strip #371, perchance? He forgot Roy's name in front of both Redcloak and Miko in that one, neither of whom were likely to care much about it.

Yeah, that’s a good example. But wasn’t there also a time he misremembered the name when he was just talking to himself?

[hamishspence]

Here- when talking to himself- he doesn't seem to remember Roy's name:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html

[RndmNumGen]

1. She was being denied something she felt she still had every right to be offered


Hmm... yeah, that's similar to the point I was trying to make. Not exactly the same, but similar. After all, Miko is the perfect ideal of all that is Good and just; for someone to not want her, they must be Evil.

[Zevox]

Strip #371, perchance? He forgot Roy's name in front of both Redcloak and Miko in that one, neither of whom were likely to care much about it.
Yup, that's the one. "Oh, right. Bluepommel and his buddies" was the line I recalled, but the context in which he said it, other than that it was a response to Redcloak, eluded me.


Here- when talking to himself- he doesn't seem to remember Roy's name:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html
Even better. That pretty much proves he actually doesn't remember him, since he has no reason to keep up an act when no one would hear him.

Zevox

[B. Dandelion]

In War and XPs Rich makes mention of Roy being the guy who "spurned her [Miko] romantically" and seeing Shojo conspire with him was part of the reason she was so quick to re-evaluate her loyalties, so I wouldn't rule it out as a factor in Miko's anti-OOTS attitude. Or at least the intended interpretation of her attitude. I wasn't exactly thrilled by the suggestion, personally, but yeah.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Here- when talking to himself- he doesn't seem to remember Roy's name:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html
Ah, thanks! I knew it was somewhere around there. Just couldn’t find it. :smallbiggrin:

[Nimrod's Son]

Even better. That pretty much proves he actually doesn't remember him, since he has no reason to keep up an act when no one would hear him.
Yeah, that does pretty much seal it. I had a feeling yesterday that there was a strip like that, but couldn't for the life of me remember which one. Ah, I concede that he probably doesn't remember him.

I still rather like the idea that he half-planned for the eventuality of Right-Eye though (I don't for one minute think he masterfully orchestrated the whole thing, but it wouldn't surprise me if he kept a closer eye than he was letting on and waited for circumstances to fall in his favour), and I still think it's a bad idea to take his claims of ignorance at face value.