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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5]Monk/Druid Gestalt: How many attacks with wild shape + pounce?



LansXero
2010-08-10, 12:14 PM
Hello, Im discussing with another player about his choice of going Gestalt for Monk/Druid. He says that at level 10, if he wild-shapes into a deynonichus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm), he than can charge for 2d4(bite)+8d6(claws+talons)+6d8(Monk Unarmed Strike)+5,5 STR damage; that the Str modifier of his new form is his monk modifier + the dino modifier "because its gestalt", and that he has taken Improved Natural Attack three times and Multi-attack while being a PHB race. Is any or all of this possible?

Adumbration
2010-08-10, 01:39 PM
Hello, Im discussing with another player about his choice of going Gestalt for Monk/Druid. He says that at level 10, if he wild-shapes into a deynonichus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm),

Possible so far - that is, if you have specifically permitted Gestalt in your game. Nothing wrong with wildshaping into that dinosaur - it only has 4 HD.


he than can charge for 2d4(bite)+8d6(claws+talons)+6d8(Monk Unarmed Strike)+5,5 STR damage;
If I'm not completely wrong, his attack routine should be something like...

Monk unarmed strike +(X-2)/+(X-2)/(X-7) for monk unarmed damage + Str modifier
Talons +X for 1d8+(Half Str modifier)
2 foreclaws +(X-2) for 1d3+(Half Str modifier)
Bite +(X-2) for 2d4+(Half Str modifier)

So yes, he can pounce for a lot of damage - but this is Gestalt, so it's kinda supposed to be powerful. Give your monsters some DR if you're concerned.


that the Str modifier of his new form is his monk modifier + the dino modifier "because its gestalt"

No. I don't think so.


, and that he has taken Improved Natural Attack three times and Multi-attack while being a PHB race. Is any or all of this possible?

Possible, if he has used all his feats on it. This also modifies the above damage dies, if he has chosen them as targets for his INA feat, but you can check here if he has modified them correctly. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize)

Hope that helps.

LansXero
2010-08-10, 01:42 PM
Thank you, I didnt knew if just being able to turn into a creature qualified you for feats like Multiattack and Imp. Natural Attack.

About the STR bonus: Wouldnt it be just the listed bonus for a MM dino then? My take is that the wildshape total score replaces the total score of his normal form; his is that his rolled stats remain, and he gains the "racial adjustments" of a dino (as if he were becoming a dino PJ)

Mongoose87
2010-08-10, 01:46 PM
He doesn't gain the racial adjustments. If he was permanently changed into the dinosaur, he would, but not for Wild Shape.

Siosilvar
2010-08-10, 01:52 PM
If I'm not completely wrong, his attack routine should be something like...

Monk unarmed strike +(X-2)/+(X-2)/(X-7) for monk unarmed damage + Str modifier
Talons +X for 1d8+(Half Str modifier)
2 foreclaws +(X-2) for 1d3+(Half Str modifier)
Bite +(X-2) for 2d4+(Half Str modifier)

His unarmed strike would be a primary attack if he uses it. The talons would also take a -2 penalty, as ALL of the natural weapons count as secondary. If he didn't have Multiattack, they would all take a -5 penalty.


Improved Natural Attack can be chosen once per type of natural weapon; an unarmed strike does qualify as a natural weapon, and you do not need to have the natural weapon when you take the feat (though it doesn't apply until you get that natural weapon).


While wildshaping, the Strength (and Dexterity, and Constitution) score of your new form replaces your old Strength (and Dex/Con) score completely.

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 01:53 PM
I'd look into D&D wiki and allow him to use the Zen Claw (i think) feat which lets you treat natural weapons as Monk weapons, thus flurryable. Not sure if you can Pounce then FoB

LansXero
2010-08-10, 02:01 PM
Allright, thank you for the input. As a thought exercise, at the same level, which non-casting straight class could deal more damage? And how? Im thinking maybe a charge-focused barbarian?

Eloel
2010-08-10, 02:03 PM
I'd look into D&D wiki and allow him to use the Zen Claw (i think) feat which lets you treat natural weapons as Monk weapons, thus flurryable. Not sure if you can Pounce then FoB

Pounce allows full attack. FoB+bunch of natural weapons = Full Attack. Nothing wrong there.


that the Str modifier of his new form is his monk modifier + the dino modifier "because its gestalt"
A Druid 10//Monk 10 shouldn't gain ANYTHING a Druid 10/Monk 10 doesn't.


Allright, thank you for the input. As a thought exercise, at the same level, which non-casting straight class could deal more damage? And how? Im thinking maybe a charge-focused barbarian?
Hulking Hurler. That gains BAB due to Barbarian on the other side. Ouch.

LansXero
2010-08-10, 02:15 PM
Hulking Hurler. That gains BAB due to Barbarian on the other side. Ouch.

Heh I forgot to say, non-gestalt.

Eldariel
2010-08-10, 02:17 PM
Hulking Hurler. That gains BAB due to Barbarian on the other side. Ouch.

War Hulk is the one that benefits of the BAB. Hurler is just busted.

Eloel
2010-08-10, 02:28 PM
Heh I forgot to say, non-gestalt.

Barbarian + Frenzied Berserker + Bear Warrior -> Ow Ow Ow.


In gestalt, Anthromorphic Bear Druid//Werebear/Barbarian/Bear Warrior

Wildshape -> Alternate Form -> Bear Form

Can probable strangle you with bear hands. Can you bear the bears?

(I missed a minimum of 2 bear-y abilities, though I don't know what. Care to find 'em?)

JaronK
2010-08-10, 02:50 PM
Allright, thank you for the input. As a thought exercise, at the same level, which non-casting straight class could deal more damage? And how? Im thinking maybe a charge-focused barbarian?

Yeah, charging Barbarian does it easily. Even just Orc Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Full BAB classes X will do it. Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Battle Jump + Headlong Rush + Valorous weapon = X4 damage on the charge, 4:1 Power Attack Returns, no penalty, at level 10. So you get +160 damage per attack from Power Attack alone when charging with three attacks (Whirling Frenzy gives an extra one). Add in strength X4, weapon damage X4, and so on and you're going to deal far more damage. Also, higher BAB and a greater focus on strength, so you should deal a good bit more damage.

If you prefer, a lance based concept would deal X5 damage (add Spirited Charge, lose Battle Jump).

JaronK

Eloel
2010-08-10, 02:54 PM
Then there's the 1d2 Crusader & Aptitude Lightning Macer.
Former is infinite damage.
Latter is a % chance at infinite # of attacks.

Urpriest
2010-08-10, 04:27 PM
Pounce allows full attack. FoB+bunch of natural weapons = Full Attack. Nothing wrong there.


If Natural Attacks aren't monk weapons, then you can't use Flurry of Blows with them. FoB is only usable if all of the attacks in your full attack are monk weapons or unarmed strikes.

Mongoose87
2010-08-10, 08:46 PM
If Natural Attacks aren't monk weapons, then you can't use Flurry of Blows with them. FoB is only usable if all of the attacks in your full attack are monk weapons or unarmed strikes.

The naturals are secondary attacks, he's flurrying with his unarmed attacks.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-10, 09:11 PM
If Natural Attacks aren't monk weapons, then you can't use Flurry of Blows with them. FoB is only usable if all of the attacks in your full attack are monk weapons or unarmed strikes.

By default, a character can attack first with iteratives, then with naturals. a red dragon with monk levels would do 4 or 5 iteratives, then the claws, the bite and the tail at -5 each (-2 with multiattack)

Urpriest
2010-08-11, 01:04 AM
Flurry affects all attacks in the round. A Monk can't choose to Flurry with certain attacks and not with others any more than a character with Power Attack can choose to apply Power Attack to certain attacks in a round and not others. A Monk can't use any weapon other than a monk weapon or unarmed strike in a flurry of blows, and every attack in that full attack takes the -2 penalty and is thus part of the flurry of blows. Thus, no extra flurry attack if you include secondary natural attacks in your full attack.