Lowest level build to solo tomb of horrors?

[Gavinfoxx]

So I'm curious... what's the lowest level build with normal wealth by level, that has the resources, if played intelligently and cautiously, to solo the tomb of horrors, as it is written here? How would that build be statted up, and what items would it have, and what are some strategies the character should have when dealing with UNKNOWN threats of the tomb (assume the player and character don't know the secrets or tricks to the tomb, beyond what skill checks, divination, and deduction can tell them)?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a

NOTE: Please use cheese free (tm) builds! For example, anything that uses any kind of loop to put numerical values extremely high is considered cheese for the purpose of this idea! Basically, the idea is to use the LEAST amount of resources possible to make a character that can do well in this challenge. Anything that uses any kind of loop is considered to use a LARGE amount of resources!

[candycorn]

Hm... Well, Pun Pun is level 1, so that would probably qualify.

[Gavinfoxx]

Thank you for reminding me to ask for CHEESE FREE (TM) builds!

[The Glyphstone]

You'll need to clarify CHEESE - by definition, any character capable of soloing the Tome of Horrors is going to be cheesy.

A trapbuster wizard with Summon Elemental's going to be a solid contender.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ya, I tried to clarify it some...

[Eloel]

A diplomacy focused bard/warlock/factotum/exemplar should be able to hit DC90 at around L7.

Make everyone fanatic, grab a divine rank (or 0), go walk through the ToH as a demigod.

Demigod vs Demilich, Demigod wins.


Edit: Expanding on the above:

Commoner 1. Buy ladders, sell poles. Get to 8.1m gold. Buy a Tiara of Diplomacy +90. Go to town.

[herrhauptmann]

A diplomacy focused bard/warlock/factotum/exemplar should be able to hit DC90 at around L7.

How?? How can you pump it that high?

[Gavinfoxx]

Does this sound suspiciously like a loop to you?

Buy a 10 foot ladder
Cut in half
Sell two 10 foot poles
Buy two 10 foot ladders
Cut in half
Sell four 10 foot poles

hmmm....

And remember, MOST of the problems in this tomb are trap based, not interaction with actual living things based!

Also, where is the rule that says if you have enough fanatics you get demigod status? LOTS of dictators and 2 piece tyrants have fanatics in Greyhawk setting, and they certainly aren't all demigods!

[Morph Bark]

Fred the Diplomancer got higher at one level lower.

Though Diplomacy may qualify as "cheese" by its definition in 3.5...

[Gavinfoxx]

How does being a diplomancer help you solve the problems in the tomb? I don't see it!

[Eloel]

How does being a diplomancer help you solve the problems in the tomb? I don't see it!

It doesn't solve them inside. It gets you worshippers. Enough worshippers, and you gain a divine rank. 1 Divine Rank = More Divine Ranks due to the funny boosts to everything, and how you can diplo with the gods.
Enough Divine Ranks = You can 'wish' the tome out of existance.

Also, at Divine Rank 1


Familiar

A deity of rank 1 or higher with levels as a sorcerer or a wizard has the ability to treat any creature of a given kind as a familiar, as long as that creature is within a distance of one mile per divine rank of the deity. This special familiar ability only applies to one creature at a time, but the deity can switch between one creature and another instantaneously, as long as the second creature is within range. This special familiar ability does not replace the deity’s ability to have a normal familiar, which could be any kind of eligible creature.

Acererak the Pet.

[Gavinfoxx]

What rule describes the number of fanatic followers needed to get divine rank? And isn't using low divine rank to get higher divine rank, uhm, a loop?

[hamishspence]

Problem is, Deities & Demigods doesn't explain how many worshippers will upgrade a mortal to a deity- it's possible that worship alone may not be enough to grant divine ranks.

[Eloel]

What rule describes the number of fanatic followers needed to get divine rank? And isn't using low divine rank to get higher divine rank, uhm, a loop?

Stepping with right foot, then with left, then with right again, is a loop.

Ideally, the soloer should be unable to walk?

[Gavinfoxx]

Stepping isnt a loop that puts numerical values extremely high. Using followers to get divine rank and divine rank to get higher divine rank and so on and so forth is a loop that increases numerical values. Reread the first post.

[Eloel]

Stepping isnt a loop that puts numerical values extremely high. Using followers to get divine rank and divine rank to get higher divine rank and so on and so forth is a loop that increases numerical values. Reread the first post.

'Distance from start of the ToH' is a numerical value. Meh, I'm done here.

[Gavinfoxx]

...okay... anyone else, was what I asked for really that hard to understand??

[Gorgondantess]

Level 7 wizard, grab the summon elemental reserve feat. Then you've just gotta out-batman the demilich (and really, by level 7, you should have all the tools you need to take over the world).
Better yet, level 9 wizard, get a level 7 wizard cohort to do the summoning for you.
Best yet, level 8 thrallherd, grab leadership, level 7 & 6 wizard cohort, both of them grab leadership for level 5 & 4 wizard cohorts.

[mangosta71]

Any class, level 6, Leadership feat. Cohort = Punpun. Though I suppose the cheese cohort probably also breaks the spirit of the rules...

[The Glyphstone]

No, but the very nature of a challenge will draw people intent on subverting it and finding 'loopholes'. It's just human nature, really.

I think the Trapbuster Wizard is the best candidate. He detects all the traps in the Tomb by means of scouting ahead with a limitless supply of elementals (Summon Elemental reserve feat), then demolishing them with the Acid Splatter reserve feat. The Minor Shapeshift reserve feat keeps him supplid with temporary HP for actual fights.

Works at level 7, I believe.

[EternalMelon]

...okay... anyone else, was what I asked for really that hard to understand??

Im sorry, but the princess answer is in another castle forum.

[imperialspectre]

The highest Spot and Listen modifiers in Tomb of Horrors are both +18 (the Mummy Lord, who can be entirely avoided). The gargoyle has only +12, as does the lich. The demilich construct has no skills and blindsight as its only detection. I conclude that a 4th-level Dark Whisper Gnome Beguiler (ECL 5), with a permanent Reduce Person spell, can reasonably solo the entire Tomb provided that she does not attempt to engage any creatures in combat. We'll call her Violet.

Assuming 28 point buy, the key elements of the build are:

16 in Dex and 17 in Int, with level-up point in Int. With racial and size bonuses, that's 20 Dex and 18 Int.

Hide, Move Silently, and Search are maxed. Violet has a racial bonus of +12 to Hide and +10 to Move Silently, and a size bonus of +8 to Hide. Feats are Darkstalker and Stealthy, giving a total of +33 Hide and +23 Move Silently. In an emergency, Violet can cast silence on herself; with Hide in Plain Sight as an (Ex) ability, this virtually guarantees her escape on her move action immediately afterward.

With maximum ranks in Search, Violet has a +11 Search modifier. Since she has trapfinding and doesn't have to worry about spell durations running out, she can simply take 20 on every square she walks over and every item she touches. The resulting 31 detects every trap in the module, so Violet is safe.

[Yorrin]

I'm sure their are more efficient ways, but an Earth Dreamer (RoS) can bypass the entire thing by walking right up to the final room via Earth Glide + Earth Sight + Tremorsense.

With some early entry finagling it's viable as early as level 11, and you get there without wasting any resource that isn't at-will, with 6th levels spells to unleash (at least, depending on what flavors of cheese you deem acceptable).

[Gavinfoxx]

I conclude that a 4th-level Dark Whisper Gnome Beguiler (ECL 5), with a permanent Reduce Person spell, can reasonably solo the entire Tomb provided that she does not attempt to engage any creatures in combat. We'll call her Violet.

Well! Thank you! It does indeed look like we may have a winner -- an ECL 5 character! AWESOME!

That was the sort of entry I was looking for, guys...

[BobVosh]

Darn violet is a much more efficient version of what I was going to make.

[OMG PONIES]

Let me preface this with a disclaimer that I've never been through the tomb (first time is underway in a PbP on these here boards), so I'm going on second-hand information.

Great work, imperialspectre! I, too, immediately thought of a dark whisper gnome. They're deliciously stealthy without giving up too much (some STR here, some CHA there, and 1 paltry little level). However, I have some questions about your build:


Your Hide check is a minimum 34, while the Mummy Lord's Spot check is a maximum 38. If my math's right, that means he can still see you 6.25% of the time. It's a small amount, but still.
Your Move Silently check is a minimum of 24, while the Mummy Lord's listen check is a maximum of 38. If my math's right, he can hear you 52.5% of the time. Granted, you have silence, but that's only 1/day.
Granted, it is easier if you can avoid the mummy lord. Then, you are undetectable by sight, but what about sound? I think Darkstalker lets you pick Hide or Move Silently, but only against special senses. Against a +12 Listen, there's still a 20.25% chance you'll be heard. Again, you have silence, but only 1/day
Can permanent reduce person be dispelled? Also, if we are assuming the use of gold to purchase that, why not potions of Camoflauge or psionic tattoos of chameleon?
Also, though Violet can detect all traps in the module, what can she do about them? Are all traps in the Tomb avoidable, or do they sometimes have to be disarmed?


My main question, though, is why you decided to go with a beguiler. Was it for the trapfinding and expanded skill list? If so, I think (if I'm not mistaken) that a Dark Whisper Gnome Factotum 3 could use the same tactics as Violet, but a level lower.

Here's the character as I see her. To be cutesy, let's call her Indigo, and say the two are sisters.

Indigo (aka "Indy"), Dark Whisper Gnome Factotum 3 (ECL 4) is detailed below:


1. ATTRIBUTES
Assuming 28 point buy
{table=head]ABILITY|BASE|RACIAL|AGE|TOTAL|MOD
STR|11|-2|-1|8|-1
DEX|15|+2|-1|16|+3
CON|12|+2|-1|13|+1
INT|17|+0|+1|18|+4
WIS|8|+0|+1|9|-1
CHA|8|-2|+1|7|-2[/table]

2. SUMMARY
Factotum excels in this role because of three things: Reduce Person as a spell-like ability via Arcane Dilettante, Cunning Knowledge, and the Brains over Brawn ability. Combining this class with a character that's already as stealthy as a dark whisper gnome means you can avoid everything not just better, but sooner too, at ECL 4.

3. SKILLS
The skills are broken down below, and assume Indigo (Indy?) is under the effect of Reduce Person:

{table=head]SKILL|RANKS|ABILITY|BRAINS|SIZE|RACIAL|COMPETENCE| TEMPLATE|FEAT|TOTAL
Disable Device|6|4|4|0|0|0|0|0|14
Hide|6|4|4|8|4|4|8|2|40
Listen|3|-1|0|0|2|0|0|0|4
Move Silently|6|4|4|0|4|4|6|2|30
Open Lock|6|4|4|0|0|0|0|0|14
Search|6|4|4|0|0|0|0|0|14
Spot|3|-1|0|0|2|0|0|0|4[/table]

Yes, apparently, this means that Indy cannot see or hear herself when she's doing her sneaky thing. Funny thing, the rules. The above assumes no (actual--see feats section) items, but masterwork tools for each would provide a nice +2. There are more expensive items available, but that's not what we're about. We're talking about a factotum, dagnabbit, the MacGuyver of the D&D world. If we need bonuses, we don't pull out some dinky tool. We inspire ourselves via cunning knowledge and get a +3 bonus. Granted, having both would just be the icing on the cake.

Indy also has the silence spell-like ability, usable 1/day. She would take the Extra Silence feat, but I'm unsure if it would let you use the ability 3/day (not being penalized for having a negative CHA modifier), or 3-2=1/day, which would just be silly. Hey, speaking of feats...

4. FEATS:

Level 1: Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws)
Flaw: Tactile Trapsmith
Flaw: Stealthy
Level 3: Darkstalker

Yes, I have included the use of flaws in this build, but they're not required. If your DM allows them, pick two--I'd prefer Noncombatant and Murky-Eyed, for the cheesy minimum penalty of it, or Noncombatant and Frail, for something more in line with the character. Tactile Trapsmith allows Indy to use her DEX for Disable Device and Search (thus allowing her to also add her INT via Brains over Brawn). However, if you drop it from the build she can still take 20 on all searches for a result of 30. Also, while Stealthy (or Extra Silence, see above) add a little to the build, they aren't required by any means. Even without Stealthy, Indy still has a minimum Hide check while reduced of 39, just enough to evade the Mummy Lord's detection.

5. CLOSING THOUGHTS:
There you have it, an ECL 4 character who cannot be detected by anything in the Tomb of Horrors. Granted, it's not exactly permanent, as Indy can only cast the spell 3 times per encounter. And yes, avoiding said encounters is the point of this type of build. However, I believe that it's still viable, as Indy can find one weak creature, hide near it until it falls asleep, then coup de grace it. I don't know if this counts as an encounter, but it's one way to regain inspiration. Alternatively, I don't know if any DM would consider a rule about short rests like in 4E, because then you'd just be able to recharge after a little sitdown. Finally, I don't know if disarming a trap is considered an encounter, allowing you to recharge inspiration. Even without any inspiration, Brains over Brawn and the Kruthik Claws soulmeld ensure that Indy will still be outhiding her sister a level sooner, with a +34 Hide check. This could always be boosted to +35 by taking the illiterate trait, and the nearsighted trait can boost Search by another +1, but these have been left out due to concerns about DMs not allowing material from Unearthed Arcana (see flaws, above).

As an alternate idea, Indy could use her arcane dilettante power to cast Tenser's Floating Disc. It can hold pently of weight, so just hop on, Hide in Plain Sight, and PRESTO! You're a basically invisible gnome flying through the tomb of horrors alone. I think this would avoid a lot of the traps, but you can still search if you're paranoid. And you should be...because this is the tomb.

[Innis Cabal]

Level 7 wizard, grab the summon elemental reserve feat. Then you've just gotta out-batman the demilich (and really, by level 7, you should have all the tools you need to take over the world).
Better yet, level 9 wizard, get a level 7 wizard cohort to do the summoning for you.
Best yet, level 8 thrallherd, grab leadership, level 7 & 6 wizard cohort, both of them grab leadership for level 5 & 4 wizard cohorts.

Thrallherd can't have two cohots IIRC

[Kurald Galain]

With maximum ranks in Search, Violet has a +11 Search modifier. Since she has trapfinding and doesn't have to worry about spell durations running out, she can simply take 20 on every square she walks over and every item she touches. The resulting 31 detects every trap in the module, so Violet is safe.

Two things... first, taking twenty on every single square means that carrying enough food is going to be an issue. And second, doesn't soloing the TOH involve defeating a friggin' demilich at the end?

[Tyndmyr]

If I only need to get to the final room, and leave, without killing the demilich, I can do that at level one. He'll need a pick, a shovel, and a 10ft pole. It'll take a while, but it'll work.

Frankly, most of the traps are bypassed by playstyle/player skill. Character skill is not enough to avoid them all. The fights are minimal, and except for the final one, easily bypassable.

[The Glyphstone]

Thrallherd can't have two cohots IIRC

Level 10 Thrallherd can. It's their capstone, Twofold Master. Unfortunately, that's at ECL15.

[imperialspectre]

Let me preface this with a disclaimer that I've never been through the tomb (first time is underway in a PbP on these here boards), so I'm going on second-hand information.

I actually ran the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors for a couple of my friends the week after Gary Gygax died. It was our tribute to him. So I'm fairly familiar with the module.


However, I have some questions about your build:


Your Hide check is a minimum 34, while the Mummy Lord's Spot check is a maximum 38. If my math's right, that means he can still see you 6.25% of the time. It's a small amount, but still.
Your Move Silently check is a minimum of 24, while the Mummy Lord's listen check is a maximum of 38. If my math's right, he can hear you 52.5% of the time. Granted, you have silence, but that's only 1/day.
Granted, it is easier if you can avoid the mummy lord. Then, you are undetectable by sight, but what about sound? I think Darkstalker lets you pick Hide or Move Silently, but only against special senses. Against a +12 Listen, there's still a 20.25% chance you'll be heard. Again, you have silence, but only 1/day
Can permanent reduce person be dispelled? Also, if we are assuming the use of gold to purchase that, why not potions of Camoflauge or psionic tattoos of chameleon?
Also, though Violet can detect all traps in the module, what can she do about them? Are all traps in the Tomb avoidable, or do they sometimes have to be disarmed?


Questions are always welcome, in the spirit of optimization. Answers are also spoilered below.

1. Your statistical analysis is accurate. However, the probability of triggering the Mummy Lord encounter is very low given careful play, because the Mummy Lord only exists if the player characters are stupid.

Therefore, the relatively low probability that detection happens is within acceptable parameters.

2. Silence is on the Beguiler's spell list as a 2nd-level spell, so it's castable 4 times per day with the current stats.

3. Permanent reduce person "can" be dispelled, but dispel magic does not appear on the spells prepared of the "false acererak," nor is it triggered by any other encounters I can recall. The risk is therefore irrelevant.

I assumed no consumables basically because they take too much work to set up. I get bored easily.

4. I can't recall any unavoidable traps. Most of the traps just punish you for being stupid (leaping into the gaping maw of a statue, etc).



My main question, though, is why you decided to go with a beguiler. Was it for the trapfinding and expanded skill list? If so, I think (if I'm not mistaken) that a Dark Whisper Gnome Factotum 3 could use the same tactics as Violet, but a level lower.

I actually considered Factotum. There are two main reasons I rejected it.

1. Beguiler's large spell list offers a number of options that give emergency tactical defenses. More importantly, silence becomes available 4 times per day if no other 2nd-level spells are used.

2. I'm afraid that you've misread Factotum's actual restrictions on Arcane Dilettante. Specifically, you can only ever use a single spell once without having an 8-hour rest.

The increased spellcasting options seemed fairly critical for having backup options. Since 2nd-level Beguiler casting doesn't come until 4th level, I conclude that the best option for building a Dark Whisper Gnome is the Beguiler build.


Two things... first, taking twenty on every single square means that carrying enough food is going to be an issue. And second, doesn't soloing the TOH involve defeating a friggin' demilich at the end?

Assuming even a marginally efficient path, we're not going to have to take 20 on every single square. At any rate, a Ring of Sustenance just barely fits within our ECL 5 budget, if I recall correctly. :smalltongue:

The demilich has no Spot or Listen score, and blindsight does not detect creatues with the Darkstalker feat. Therefore, walking into the final room and grabbing everything Violet can carry appears to be a "defeat" for the demilich.

[AdamSmasher]

What a LOT of people are forgetting is that taking a 20 on Search is suicide. Taking 20 automatically assumes failure. That means if you take 20 searching something that's trapped, you WILL set off the trap unless your search skill is so high that there's no danger in rolling a 1. Taking 10 or rolling randomly until you GET a 20 is the only safe way to do it, and if you roll too low you set the thing off.


EDIT: I'm thinking of Disable Device, it seems.

[WarKitty]

What a LOT of people are forgetting is that taking a 20 on Search is suicide. Taking 20 automatically assumes failure. That means if you take 20 searching something that's trapped, you WILL set off the trap. Taking 10 or rolling randomly until you GET a 20 is the only safe way to do it, and if you roll too low you set the thing off.

Failing on searching for a trap doesn't mean you set it off though. It just means you don't find it. And skill checks don't critically fail on a 1.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, is this a module where taking 20 on a search WOULD imply failure? Ya, taking 20 on disable device -- that's true for sure! But search? I could see it going either way...

[WarKitty]

Well, is this a module where taking 20 on a search WOULD imply failure? Ya, taking 20 on disable device -- that's true for sure! But search? I could see it going either way...

That's actually a good point...even if taking 20 on search is allowed all the time, taking 20 on disable device would generally set it off. So our hypothetical gnome would need to be able to either take 10 or survive the trap.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, they'd need one of the special "take 10 under duress, even if there is a chance of failure" options...


But here's a question -- can't most of the traps be bypassed in some way WITHOUT disable device? IE, associated knowledge checks, knowing they are there and not interacting with them, etc.?

[Tyndmyr]

Essentially all of them, yes. Or at least, set off in some way(generally involving a 10ft pole) that won't hit the user. I can't think of any exceptions, and I DMed it recently.

Avoidance and paranoia is the key. It's a dungeon that preys on the careless.

[kestrel404]

Well, I've always preferred the following solution to ToH style 'killer dungeons'.

Step 1: Create a Large size Psychic Warrior with Powerful Build and only +2 LA. Half-Ogre Half-Giant is a good bet.
Step 2: Get to level 9. Buy off LA. You are now ECL 9. You powers should include Expansion, and your feats should include Extend Power and Overchannel.
Step 3: Buy a Huge Adamantine Shovel.
Step 4: Grow to Gargantuan size. Your shovel will now be Colossal. Extend the power and spend the extra for minutes instead of rounds of duration. Repeat as necessary, and rest when you run out of PP.
Step 5: Dig up the dungeon. You should be able to manage a 5x5 square of dungeon on every shovel full - so one square of dungeon per round. Just toss these over your shoulder.
Step 6: Sift through the literal ruins you create this way for loot. You'll lose out on breakables like potions, but all the gold and jewels will still be there.

Note: If you're attacked by something, dump your current shovel full of dungeon on it. That should be 20d6 'falling' damage, easy. Keep doing that until it dies. In the case of magical traps, remember that you're only touching things with a 20' pole from 15' reach.

Won't work for EVERY situation, but played intelligently he should have a decent chance of soloing the dungeon. May need a couple of extra shovels to beat the ToH.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I've always preferred the following solution to ToH style 'killer dungeons'.

Step 1: Create a Large size Psychic Warrior with Powerful Build and only +2 LA. Half-Ogre Half-Giant is a good bet.
Step 2: Get to level 9. Buy off LA. You are now ECL 9. You powers should include Expansion, and your feats should include Extend Power and Overchannel.
Step 3: Buy a Huge Adamantine Shovel.
Step 4: Grow to Gargantuan size. Your shovel will now be Colossal. Extend the power and spend the extra for minutes instead of rounds of duration. Repeat as necessary, and rest when you run out of PP.
Step 5: Dig up the dungeon. You should be able to manage a 5x5 square of dungeon on every shovel full - so one square of dungeon per round. Just toss these over your shoulder.
Step 6: Sift through the literal ruins you create this way for loot. You'll lose out on breakables like potions, but all the gold and jewels will still be there.

Note: If you're attacked by something, dump your current shovel full of dungeon on it. That should be 20d6 'falling' damage, easy. Keep doing that until it dies. In the case of magical traps, remember that you're only touching things with a 20' pole from 15' reach.

Won't work for EVERY situation, but played intelligently he should have a decent chance of soloing the dungeon. May need a couple of extra shovels to beat the ToH.

Kestrel, I think you get the reward for "most hilarious way to solo tomb of horrors"!

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't the Tome infested by ethereal fiends that repair the tomb overnight or something?

[Crasical]

Won't work for EVERY situation, but played intelligently he should have a decent chance of soloing the dungeon. May need a couple of extra shovels to beat the ToH.

I like the phrase 'Shovelful of dungeon'. Win just on that account.

[OMG PONIES]

It now seems my party and I have been playing Factotums wrong...eek.

[WinWin]

Stealth kill Acerarak
Obtain the rod and the crown. Place crown on Acerarak. Touch rod to crown/Acerarak

Requires legend lore/anylise dweamor or some other method of determining the interactions of these cursed items. Also requires surprise. Grappling a Demi-lich/construct may be easy, but is inavisable

[Tyrmatt]

I like the phrase 'Shovelful of dungeon'. Win just on that account.

That's going up there with Fistful of Boomstick in my quotes respository.

Also, now can't stop thinking of CHEESE to stand for "Complete Hell Evoked, Every Single Encounter"

[Crasical]

Stealth kill Acerarak
Obtain the rod and the crown. Place crown on Acerarak. Touch rod to crown/Acerarak

Requires legend lore/anylise dweamor or some other method of determining the interactions of these cursed items. Also requires surprise. Grappling a Demi-lich/construct may be easy, but is inavisable

I've heard an apocryphal story that Acerarak was killed that way in one of the original tournament games of DnD (And they had Mr. Gygax rule that it worked!), but the way I recall it they had two players, one to put the crown on and one to tap the crown with the rod. Soloing the dungeon means by definition you don't have a partner to do the rod-tapping.

[Fouredged Sword]

Tie the rod to the crown, then put the crown on the target? They are touching and on the lich.

I haven't read the modual, so I am just throwing that out there.

[Tyndmyr]

Not going to work.

[WinWin]

I did say you need surprise...

One round to put the crown on, then a touch attack against a fine target. It can go horribly wrong very quickly though. Maybe a summoned minion could help make it work.

[woodenbandman]

Level 1. Any character.

Of course, you have to be playing first edition, but it's possible.

[Yeturs]

Unfortunatly for the stealth kill, the crown cannot leave the room

Under gold crown sidebar

"effect: if worn, the wearer is immediately telepathically visited with the information that the crown cannot be removed unless the scepter is touched too it-see specifics under the gold and silver scepter description. The wearer can also see wothin the throne room as if in normal daylight. Also, the wearer is immune to the levitation effect of the pillars.

However, the crown cannot leave the chamber. If it is teleported out, it immediately returns with it's wearer (if still worn). The wearer cannot physically walk out of the chamber and must remove the crown to do so."

I think that was added after the original acererak kill using the crown.

But the scepter can be removed, if that helps :P

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah. I reccomend adding some limitations on where the scepter can go, though.

I've seen players throw it into the demon's mouth before proceeding any further into the dungeon. This poses slight problems for progressing.

[OldFart]

Note: If you're attacked by something, dump your current shovel full of dungeon on it. That should be 20d6 'falling' damage, easy. Keep doing that until it dies. In the case of magical traps, remember that you're only touching things with a 20' pole from 15' reach.

Won't work for EVERY situation, but played intelligently he should have a decent chance of soloing the dungeon. May need a couple of extra shovels to beat the ToH.This is an awesome build, but I'm afraid it can't solo anything. It has to adventure with Mr. Furious, the Blue Raja, the Bowler, the Spleen, and Invisible Boy.

[Temassasin]

lvl one and drive a herd of cattle ahead of you

[Darrin]

I've heard an apocryphal story that Acerarak was killed that way in one of the original tournament games of DnD (And they had Mr. Gygax rule that it worked!), but the way I recall it they had two players, one to put the crown on and one to tap the crown with the rod. Soloing the dungeon means by definition you don't have a partner to do the rod-tapping.

This story appears in the introduction to "Return to the Tomb of Horrors" (2nd edition box set). I think... Rob Kuntz...? was running it at a convention. (Kuntz was the first player to "beat" the Tomb with his PC Robilar). I believe Kuntz allowed this tactic to work, and when he conferred with Gygax later to see if he made the right call, Gygax thought it was brilliant and said the players should be rewarded for their creativity.

When I ran ToH as a one-shot on Halloween a few years back, my players discovered the same tactic. I was absolutely dumbfounded... in fact, I thought Gygax may have even worked in the crown/scepter combo as the "solution" to the tomb. Then I ran across the story in Return to ToH, and apparently it was "accidental genius" rather than "planned genius". But it was nice to know that Gygax would have supported my call to let it work.

[Tyndmyr]

So I'm curious... what's the lowest level build with normal wealth by level, that has the resources, if played intelligently and cautiously, to solo the tomb of horrors, as it is written here?

It's come up before. I recall one build that used sufficient size ehancements to wield an adamantine shovel big enough to remove an entire 5ft cube of dungeon at once. Amazing how well that works.

I should clarify on the Scepter/crown combo. While it worked once, it was then fixed in the module. If you'll read carefully in the later printings, including the 3.5 one, you'll note that you can't carry them both to that room.

[kestrel404]

It's come up before. I recall one build that used sufficient size ehancements to wield an adamantine shovel big enough to remove an entire 5ft cube of dungeon at once. Amazing how well that works.

Yes, one of my favorite ideas, and it was in this thread. This is a necro.

[Tyndmyr]

Damn. I thought it was new. Oh well, that's what I get for not reading from the beginning.

[GideonRiddle]

Assuming that you can get to him all that Acerak needs is a bag around him for you to win.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, a demi-lich in a bag is a handy thing to have, too.

[Darrin]

I should clarify on the Scepter/crown combo. While it worked once, it was then fixed in the module. If you'll read carefully in the later printings, including the 3.5 one, you'll note that you can't carry them both to that room.

More likely, it's probably to force whoever put on the crown to deal with the scepter or find some other way to take it off, otherwise they'll just shrug and not bother trying to remove it. I'm not sure whoever updated ToH to 3.5 knew about the combo. Since the Demilich update in ELH makes it immune to disintegrate, preventing the crown from being used on Acererak isn't all that necessary.

When I ran it, the players were using 3.5/D20 PCs, and I was using sort of an amalgam of 1st edition/3.5, and more-or-less handling rules discrepancies on-the-fly by the seat of my pants. When they started messing with the crown, I treated it as Gygax intended, a no-save disintegrate followed by a "Which character would you like to bring in next?" When they started mucking around with the demilich, the rules kinda went out the window when the medium-sized giant robot stabbed it with a lightsaber (I decided the refraction caused a 5' radius burst of lightsaber damage). After the ewok jedi (a "twin" of the first ewok that jumped into the Sphere of Annihilation) managed to shrug off trap the soul by blowing all his Force points, they came up with the crown/scepter combo. Since I'd already established it as a no-save disintegrate, the demilich was toast.

[vhfforever]

lvl one and drive a herd of cattle ahead of you

My former groups solution to one of the Drow villages we encountered on the way through Night Below involved a Scroll with Mount, Enlarge Animal, Barkskin, Berserk, and Spook.

Heh...those Drow never saw the War Elephants coming.

[Swooper]

How incredibly impressive. This thread has been necromancied twice. :xykon: Time to lock it maybe, you know, to prevent its next due incarnation in 2013?

[Endarire]

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