PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Players using templates?



Saya
2010-08-10, 03:17 PM
I decided to start DMing my first 3.5 game (starting level 6) awhile ago, and although I did say that I am limiting the game to core, UA and the complete series only, I have mentioned that within reason, I will allow things from other source books (ie: A player asked for the alt class feature that allows rogues to sneak attack things for half damage that normally can't be SA as long as they flank), and one player comes up to me and asks if he can use the half fey template. I'm not really sure how to rule on this one, on the one hand, I can see a lot of munchkin/cheese that can arise from allowing the template, which while as a DM I can easily counter (enemies occasionally have the item required to break his DR/low ceiling areas/constructs), I don't want it to feel like I'm picking on his character, what should I do?

Oh, and Half Fey template, for those without the books, can be found here:
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-10, 03:19 PM
So if he wants to gimp his character by having four class levels when everyone else has 6 class levels, go ahead and let him. Just warn him against it, as it will make him WEAKER. If he wants to be a trickster, he should just play a beguiler 6.

Xefas
2010-08-10, 03:25 PM
I say allow it. It's not that huge of a bonus. Not to mention, if you don't want to seem like you're picking on them, then don't seem like you're picking on them.

I don't know the circumstances of your campaign, but there are perfectly logical reasons for people they run into having Cold Iron, Constructs, or living in areas with low ceilings.

For instance, if the party is Evil, they may run into Demonhunters, who would also be armed to the teeth with Cold Iron. If the party is Good...they may also run into Demonhunters, because every alignment hates demons.

Does there really need to be a justification for ceilings? You go inside, you can't fly very well. If the player complains about this, you have other problems.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind the spell-like abilities are based off of Racial Hit Dice (which most player races don't have), not character or class levels.

Also...butterfly wings. That seems almost like a punishment.

Ashram
2010-08-10, 03:56 PM
Templates really only get silly when you allow players to buy off their level adjustment, which I assume you may or may not do since you're allowing Unearthed Arcana. It all depends on what you want the power level of your group to be.

Endarire
2010-08-10, 04:38 PM
Consider what a template is really worth. WotC overprices most templates and LA races to punish those who wish to break the stereotype.

Half-fey in this case feels like it's worth +1 or +2 LA. Class levels are the most condensed sources of power, and losing a level or 2 worth of class features, skill points, saves, BAB, and HP had better be a trade up.

Saya
2010-08-10, 05:18 PM
Hm... what's the correct NPC reaction for seeing someone with butterfly wings anyway? .-.

Also, if someone has the actual book itself where this is listed, can someone tell me whether or not the wings is a on/off thing?

Xefas
2010-08-10, 05:58 PM
Hm... what's the correct NPC reaction for seeing someone with butterfly wings anyway? .-.

Also, if someone has the actual book itself where this is listed, can someone tell me whether or not the wings is a on/off thing?

Oh, its not on/off. Your mum was a fairy, so you were born with giant butterfly wings growing out of your shoulderblades. They don't go away (though you could try using something like Alter Self to disguise them).

They also have the added quirk of not being able to Gargoyles-style wrap around you like Dragon/Fiend/Celestial wings and be hidden under a cloak without a substantially larger amount of suspension of disbelief.

I imagine the average town, filled with medieval dirt-farming peasants who still use their ditches as lavatories and think leeches are the miraculous cure-all would probably pitch-fork mob the pure half-fey for consorting with the otherworldly-what-can't-be-trusted-a'hyuck-*spit*.

On the other hand, Druids, Rangers, and other men of the wild would probably...well, no, actually, Fey are renowned for being tricksters that you should never trust under any circumstances. Even the more learned people will probably treat them with (at best) friendly distrust.

Saya
2010-08-10, 06:23 PM
Hm... looked at the template again and realized for the most part npc reaction would not matter as he has charm person at will...

tyckspoon
2010-08-10, 06:36 PM
Attemping to Charm everybody you meet is a really good way to get in trouble.. sooner or later the spell wears off, and some people will make the save, and then you've got an ever-growing chain of people who know you cast a spell at them, manipulated or tried to manipulate their minds, and who remember you really well (because, well, butterfly wings. And if you charmed them successfully, for a little while you were bestest friends.) At some point you will do this to entirely the wrong target and the entire thing will crash on your head.

That said, the worst part about Half Fey from a balance perspective is granting a Good maneuverability Fly speed at a relatively cheap LA cost. But you're playing at a level where Flight starts to become quite easy to attain anyway- your players will likely have a means to fly over or around any single obstacle they feel like, and in a few more levels at least some of them will have ways to fly whenever and wherever they feel like it as well. So I wouldn't worry about it too much; thinking of ways to help your adventures survive having one guy flying all the time will just be good practice for when the whole party is doing it.

Xefas
2010-08-10, 06:51 PM
Hm... looked at the template again and realized for the most part npc reaction would not matter as he has charm person at will...

Charm Person at will is very nice, but it's not quite as instant a problem solver as a Mass Charm Person would be. At most, they can charm someone once every 6 seconds. Spell-like abilities still provoke attacks of opportunity and still has a saving throw based on their effective spell level (in this case, 1).

It's an immensely useful ability, especially because it has no verbal or somatic components (being a spell-like ability), meaning no one is going to know that you're casting it unless they have Spellcraft ranks. But it doesn't insta-solve any social situation.

awa
2010-08-10, 07:05 PM
the damage reduction is not spectacular i would not give people cold iron unless it would be logical for them to have it. Hes going to have less hit points to make up for that damage reduction (less hit dice and lower con) so his added durability is not as big a deal.
most fey are good aligned so an attractive he probably shouldn't take to much flack for his fey like appearance at least no more than a half orc and possible less then that what with the bonus to charisma compared to the half orcs penalty.

It seems to me a warlock would have most of these abilities by near this level.

All in all the half fey should fit in nicely in a mid optimized game (at high optimization giving up caster levels is always a mistake) the character might be slightly stronger at low level but it wont last very long.

Darrin
2010-08-10, 10:55 PM
I decided to start DMing my first 3.5 game (starting level 6) awhile ago, and although I did say that I am limiting the game to core, UA and the complete series only, I have mentioned that within reason, I will allow things from other source books (ie: A player asked for the alt class feature that allows rogues to sneak attack things for half damage that normally can't be SA as long as they flank), and one player comes up to me and asks if he can use the half fey template.

Half-fey is one of the stronger LA +2 templates. The level adjustment would make him fairly powerful at first, but severely slow down how quickly he levels up, and even with LA buyoff, he'd fall behind the other players as they level up.

Rather than get into the mechanics of level adjustment, though, I'd suggest using template class levels from this Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). Essentially, the PC can "buy" two class levels as if they were a mini-PrC. There's a trade-off in that he doesn't get HP, skill points, etc. You can add certain conditions to it to slow down his progress or delay it until he's at a more appropriate power level. For example, he has to locate a certain artifact, or fulfill a certain quest for a high-level fey, in order to "earn" his way into the template class.

After that, if the PC was still much more powerful than the other members of the party, I'd probably start throwing wacky stuff at him like Unseelie Fey antagonists that hunt him down and make his life miserable with Fey Court Politics, unremovable curses, unavoidable petty requests, etc.

Aroka
2010-08-10, 11:29 PM
They also have the added quirk of not being able to Gargoyles-style wrap around you like Dragon/Fiend/Celestial wings and be hidden under a cloak without a substantially larger amount of suspension of disbelief.

A bigger suspension of disbelief than the idea that butterfly wings could let someone human-sized fly to begin with?

Maybe they look like butterfly wings and fold down like moth wings?

Xefas
2010-08-10, 11:44 PM
A bigger suspension of disbelief than the idea that butterfly wings could let someone human-sized fly to begin with?

Yes, actually. Only because I've been suspending my disbelief for the majority of my life about Dragons and such being able to fly with disproportionately small or weakly constructed wings. I'm practiced at it. Hiding them, however...now that'd be new and strange.


Maybe they look like butterfly wings and fold down like moth wings?

You do make an excellent point, however. I could imagine that.

W3bDragon
2010-08-10, 11:50 PM
I have mentioned that within reason, I will allow things from other source books

I'd hate to sound harsh, but that's the problem right there. In many games I've played in, once the DM sets the boundaries of what's available, the first question out of a player's mouth is: "Can I take that cool (and banned) feat from that cool (and banned) book?"

In your specific case, I'd recommend that you give your player the template since you allowed the rogue the ACF, but with a few cautions about the issues other posters have mentioned.

As general advice, I'd recommend that when you set boundaries (ones that are agreed upon by the players), stick with them. Otherwise your players will simply keep looking through the books that you don't want to use, because they know you'll allow exceptions, and continually find "cool" stuff they want to play. That's not player maliciousness, its just the way it is.

If you want only a couple of things from other books, for example the rogue ACF mentioned or Dungeoncrasher for fighters for example, then make those options available as a house rule, while still keeping the books they're in off-bounds, if that's your intention.

FYI, I used to do the same thing, allowing stuff within reason that is, and it caused me a lot of trouble keeping the balance between the PCs without looking like I'm playing favorites.

Chaelos
2010-08-11, 01:12 AM
Also, keep in mind the spell-like abilities are based off of Racial Hit Dice (which most player races don't have), not character or class levels.

Incorrect. It's character-level based (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) in this case, which is still a good design choice. I would absolutely allow the Half-Fey; it's one of the best balanced templates around, in my opinion.

I also wouldn't beat up on the player for having the template, but the group I play with tends to re-flavor these things rather significantly.

Xefas
2010-08-11, 01:31 AM
Incorrect. It's character-level based (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) in this case, which is still a good design choice. I would absolutely allow the Half-Fey; it's one of the best balanced templates around, in my opinion.

I also wouldn't beat up on the player for having the template, but the group I play with tends to re-flavor these things rather significantly.

Oh, really? Huh, that actually makes the template a bit more interesting and useful. I always thought that stuff like Half-Fiend, Half-Fey, etc that granted spell-likes granted them based on racial HD, and I was just house-ruling them to work off character-level.

I don't suppose this was an errata of some kind, or have I just been wrong this whole time?

Chaelos
2010-08-11, 01:46 AM
Unless the entries explicitly say "Racial Hit Dice" they refer to how many total Hit Dice the character actually has. Note, for instance, that in the Half-Fiend description, the character gains skill points based on its racial Hit Dice, but the spell-like abilities are unlocked just based on its Hit Dice overall. This is not intended to gimp the character by forcing it to take (next-to-worthless) racial Hit Dice, but rather to distribute benefits evenly over 20 levels (rather than give the character all the powerful SLA's up front).

Olo Demonsbane
2010-08-11, 02:17 AM
Oh, really? Huh, that actually makes the template a bit more interesting and useful. I always thought that stuff like Half-Fiend, Half-Fey, etc that granted spell-likes granted them based on racial HD, and I was just house-ruling them to work off character-level.

I don't suppose this was an errata of some kind, or have I just been wrong this whole time?

Maybe you were thinking of Feral? It is based off of Racial HD.


Also, definitely allow Half Fey. It's a great template; not too powerful, not too weak, good roleplaying opportunities, easy to shut down if it becomes too powerful, easy to boost up if it becomes too weak.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-11, 05:51 PM
Welcome to the boards.

The answer is 3 steps:

Breathe.
Don't worry about "cheese" from templates.
Explain that he will be weaker for practically every LA2 template in existance before allowing it.