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teslas
2010-08-10, 04:27 PM
Assume you are going to take Fighter to 20
Assume you are Human.
Assume you have the stats required for every feat, apart from super-high dex for TWF.
Assume you start play at low levels, and it may be a long, long while before you're 15+.
Assume you will be given one, possibly even two, additional bonus feats.

Unearthed Arcana Flaws and Taints are disallowed.
Eberron/Forgotten Realms content disallowed.

Basically any other WotC content is allowed.

Your goal is not to be some sort of uber-optimized character, but definitely one that can be useful.

The build will be centered around a sword and board style character that should "tank", although feats that enhance other aspects, such as ranged attacks, could be very welcome.

You will have the option to carry around a golf bag of utensils, weapons, and other tools--and you will.

You will not be able to multi-class or gain a prestige class until after level 10, even then it will be from a strict list--so assume this isn't an option unless the class is very similar to a fighter or a non-mounted knight.

You are going to be in a game LOOSELY based off of Final Fantasy 1. Your party will have four people in it, with each person having to be of a different "type". The bonus feat(s) is(are) to compensate for your somewhat limited ability to select a class.

Stereotypical party:
Divine Healer
Arcane Mage
Roguey Thief
Fightery Fighter <--- This is you!

edits: Dodge Houserule and Disallowances

Dodge Feat:
+1 Dodge AC. This is constant and always in effect while you retain your DEX mod to AC.
Can lose this benefit to gain +2 Dodge AC to one, individual target.

teslas
2010-08-10, 04:29 PM
My build, focusing on being the unoptimized man who stands in front of things:

I personally find the Leap Attack from PH2 to be sort of lame, especially during early levels. It will most likely be ruled to be additive, not the straight double damage some people argue. If this is the case, it will probably be taken.

Additional Level 1 Feat: ???
H1: Dodge
F1: Weapon Focus
1: Improved Buckler Defense
Do not lose shield bonus when attacking
F2: Power Attack
3: Improved Toughness
F4: Weapon Spec.
F6: Heavy Armor Optimization
6: Shield Specialization
F8: Melee Weapon Mastery
9: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
F10: Greater Weapon Focus
F12: Greater Weapon Specialization
12: Shield Ward
Gain Shield Bonus to touch AC and
resisting bull rush, overrun,
grapple attempts, disarm, and trip
F14: ???
15: ???
F16: ???
F18: Weapon Supremacy
18: ???
F20: ???

Considerations for additional feats:
Iron Will

Equipment that will be bought and upgraded as affordable:
Greatsword
Buckler
Plate Mail (mithral)
Ring of Deflection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Appropriate Stat+ Items
Cloak of Resistance

Yorrin
2010-08-10, 04:30 PM
Are obscure 3.0 feats allowed? Because that changes quite a bit of what I might suggest...

EDIT: I might as well also ask about Flaws and Taint...

teslas
2010-08-10, 04:38 PM
Blatently broken or poorly translatable 3.0 feats will be disallowed for sure.

Otherwise they are probably possible. The DM is pretty fair and willing to put a little work into bringing more sources into the game, especially if the content fits a character's theme.

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 04:55 PM
First of all, wielding a shield sucks. Therefore, step 1...aquire a +1 Animated Shield so you can keep on THFing.

H Weapon Focus: Greatclub
1 Power Attack
F1 Improved Bullrush
F2 Combat Reflexes
3 Cleave
F4 Combat Expertese
6 Shocktrooper
F6 Three Mountains Strike
F8 Dodge
9 Karmic Strike
F10 Leap Attack
12 Robilar's Gambit
F12 Shield Specialization
F14 Imp Shield Bash
15 Shield Slam
F16 Weapon Spec: Greatclub
18 Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning
F18 Crushing Blow
F20 Shield Ward

Basic premise, Three Mountains Strike means if you hit a foe twice in a round they have to make a save vs nausiated. A nausiated person can only take a move or standard action. When someone attacks you, you get 2x AoOs against them, one for Robilar's Gambit in response to the attack, one for Karmic Strike in response to the hit. If they hit you, they take 2x blows to the head with the Greatclub, which triggers Three Mountains Strike. Since they've already taken 1 attack, they can't make any more, effectively shutting off foes ability to full attack you. Crushing Blow makes your hard hits harder, and MWM Bludgeoning affects your Shield Bashes as well. You can Leap Attack/Shocktrooper a Shield Slam, so the foe you blast (assuming they survive) can't attack you back, and if his friends try to, see above Karmic Strike + Robilar's + Three Mountains combo.

Its so offensive its defensive. It uses a shield. What more do you want from me?

EDIT: If you want to use a shield from day 1, change all instances of Greatclub to Morningstar. Its 1handed, so you can use it with a shield at low levels, then 2hand it when you get an Animated shield. Average damage goes down by 1 point, which shouldn't really be a factor, and having access to both type P and type B damage is often useful (except vs zombies).

Yorrin
2010-08-10, 04:57 PM
And I see you edited the first post to answer the rest of my questions. Well then, let's go with something like:

Human: Throwback (3.0 feat, from Bastards and Bloodlines)
1: Old Blood (also 3.0 from B&B, pick any creature type that is normally large or larger)
F1: Power Attack
F2: Dungeoncrasher Variant
3: Large (again, 3.0 B&B)
F4: Improved Bull Rush
6: Combat Expertise
F6: Dungeoncrasher Variant
F8: Improved Trip
9: Knockback
F10: Shock Trooper
12: Improved Sunder
F12:Combat Brute
F14: Cleave
15: Hidden Talent (probably go with Expansion)
F16: Heavy Armor Optimization
18: Deflective Armor
F18: Great Cleave
F20: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization

It's a tripper/dungeoncrasher build with a nice AC and Great Cleave. Pick up reach weapon if possible. Spiked Chain is nice, and you might want to switch out Throwback for that.

Person_Man
2010-08-10, 05:00 PM
You might want to check out my melee combo guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026). It's basically a list of useful feats and how to put them together. Anywho, here's my stock Fighter advice:

Fighter is actually quite a respectable choice up to ECL 12ish if you know what you're doing. The keys are alternate class features (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113.html) and careful feat selection (see combos above).

At level 1, Fighters get the Tower Shield for free. This in itself is useful. Races of Stone also lets you trade it away for Exotic Shield Proficiency, which has several uses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6848292). I suggest using it for a Gnome Battle Cloak, which is essentially a shield you wear on your back, which is essentially a free Animated shield. Or you can take the Extreme Shield if you want +3 AC without a To-Hit penalty (but don't care about making shield bash attacks). If you want a mounted build (which is one of your best core-ish options) then I suggest a Riding Shield.

At levels 2 and 6, Dungonscape lets you trade away feats for the Dungeoncrasher ability, which gives you massive damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object. As others have opined, the easiest way to abuse this is through the Knockback feat. Check out Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) and the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248). If you want to be less abusive and/or don't want to be a Goliath, then I suggest you be a Raptorian or Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) for free flight (though it doesn't kick in until ECL 12). This lets you move above enemies, so that you can Bull Rush them into the floor. You can also get free Bull Rush attempts from the Shield of the Severed Hand (Complete Divine pg 102 or MIC) and/or Brutal Surge weapons (MIC). It's also worth mentioning that Dungeoncrasher damage is so high that even a single mundane Bull Rush per turn can kill most enemies.

At 2nd level or higher you can give up a Fighter bonus feat to gain the Resolute ability (Complete Champion). It allows you to immediately shift 1/2 your BAB to your Will Save. Hugely useful at mid to high levels, as Will Saves are often Save or Lose. Once you get to level 10 or higher I would definitely pick this one up, unless you can find some other form of mental protection.

A nifty web ad on (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) gives you various buffs to your ability to Demoralize. The most important kicks in at 11th level, which lets you Demoralize as a Swift Action. This can be a powerful tool (http://boards-test-dev.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167), especially when combined with the Imperious Command feat (Drow of the Underdark) which makes Demoralized enemies Cower (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cowering).


Other useful feat options:

Abominable Form: Living creatures with fewer hit dice then you that can see you must Save or be Shaken for a number of rounds equal to your Con modifier. Also grants +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidate. Requires Willing Deformity. Elder Evils pg 11.

Acheron Flurry: You can spend a Standard Action to restrict your enemy to a single Move or Standard action on his next turn. No To-Hit roll, no Save, it just happens. There are various little restrictions on this, but it’s a great way to prevent a boss enemy from making a full attack or Summoning while your friends pummel him. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike and 15 Wis and Dex. Planar Handbook pg 37.

Ancestral Relic: Pick one item (usually a weapon). You can sacrifice treasure to improve that item, bypassing the need to sell stuff at the standard 50% mark down, and then find someone to improve it. Assuming your DM plays using standard wealth by level and doesn’t short change you because he knows you have this feat, this is a great choice for long running campaigns. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 39.

Arcane Schooling: You’re treated as having one level of one arcane class for the purpose of activating spell trigger items (like Wands). Hello buff spells, good bye UMD! Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33.

Battle Jump: Double damage on a charge if you drop from above your enemy (or make a very high Jump check). Unapproachable East pg 42.

Bloodsoaked Intimidate: When you kill an enemy, you can make an Intimidation check as a Swift Action. Combine with Imperious Command. Requires Snatch Trophy. Champions of Ruin pg 17.

Brutal Strike: Once per round if you Power Attack an enemy with a bludgeoning weapon, they must Save or be Sickened for 1 round. PHBII pg 76.

Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability: +4 Will Saves, +8 to resist bull rush/trips/grapple/etc, and Fast Healing 4. PHBII pg 87.

Deepspawn: You gain two tentacle attacks. Requires Aberration Blood. Lords of Madness pg 179.

Deformity (Madness): You take a -4 penalty to your Wisdom, but gain immunity to mind-affecting effects. Once per minute you can add 1/2 your character level to any Will Save. Elder Evils pg 13.

Dire Flail Smash: If you hit an enemy with both ends of your dire flail, they must Save (Str based DC!) or be Dazed for 1 round. Annoying prereqs, but nothing is immune to Daze. Requires Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (Dire Flail). Champions of Ruin pg 16.

Double Hit: When you make an AoO, you can make an attack with your main and off hand weapon. Miniatures Handbook pg 25.

Dreadful Wrath: Gives you a Frightful Presence. Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 38.

Dragon Trainer: You can use Handle Animal to train dragons. Races of the Dragon pg 98.

Evasive Reflexes: You can take a 5 ft step instead of an AoO. When combined with a reach weapon and anything that generates additional AoO (Hold the Line, Karmic Strike, Robilar’s Gambit, etc) you can often foil most Charges and Full Attacks against you. Tome of Battle pg 30.

Fearless Destiny: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. Races of Destiny pg 152.

Hold the Line: Free AoO when your enemy charges you. Works particularly well with Knockback. Complete Warrior pg 100.

Inhuman Reach: Increases your natural reach. Requires Aberration Blood. Lords of Madness pg 180.

Insane Defiance: As an Immediate Action when you are targeted by a Mind Affecting spell or spell like ability, you can take a point of Wis damage to redirect it to another target. Elder Evils pg 13.

Karmic Strike: Free AoO whenever an enemy hits you. The down side of this feat is that it lowers your AC and requires the sucky Combat Expertise and Dodge feats. But if you’re using a Trip build, it’s probably a good idea. Complete Warrior pg 102.

Mage Slayer: Casters cannot cast defensively when you threaten them. When combined with a reach weapon and armor spikes (so that they can’t just take a 5 ft step out of your threatened area) or Inhuman Reach or Deformity (Tall) or Thicket of Blades, this feat is extremely useful for disrupting spells and spell-like abilities. The only down side is that this feat decreases your caster level by 4, which means it’s a no go for many half-caster builds (Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade, etc). Comp Arcane pg 81.

Magic Device Attunement: If you successfully make a UMD check to use an item, you don’t have to make another one when using that item for the next 24 hours. You can only attune one item at a time. Very helpful for Cha based tanks who don’t have a lot of Skill points to spare. Complete Mage pg 44.

Martial Stance: You gain one Tome of Battle stance. Stances are effectively an all day buff, and there are a ton of useful options. Requires one martial maneuver (a level of a ToB class or the Martial Study feat). Tome of Battle pg. 31.

Martial Study: You gain one Tome of Battle maneuver. Again, there are a ton of excellent options. Tome of Battle pg. 31.

Pierce Magical Concealment: Allows you to ignore the miss chance from any spell or spell-like ability. I’ve found that this is pretty much a requirement for any melee build if you want a chance of hitting BBEG at high levels. Although like Mage Slayer, it further lowers your caster level. You can combine this feat with any Blink effect to impose a 50% miss chance on your enemies and deny them their Dex bonus, without suffering the 20% miss chance. (A great trick for Sneak Attack builds as well). Requires Mage Slayer and Blind Fight. Complete Arcane pg 81.

Robilar’s Gambit: Enemies get a bonus to hit you, but all melee attacks provoke an AoO. PHBII pg 82.

Saddleback: You can Take 10 on Ride checks and use Ride in place of Reflex Saves once per round for you and your mount. Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 43.

Scorpion’s Grasp: Free Grapple check when you hit an enemy. Grapple is a great way to boost damage for unarmed builds, and lock down a single enemy. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. Sandstorm pg 52.

Shield Slam: When you charge an enemy and attack with your Shield, you get a free Trip attack and your enemy must Save or be Dazed for 1 round. A good low level tank combo. But unless your DM is generous in how he reads the feat, it can’t be used with Pounce or two handed Power Attack, so it loses it’s usefulness by ECL 11+. Requires Shield Bash and Shield Charge. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Shield Ward: +1 to your shield bonus, and your shield bonus applies to touch attacks and checks to resist Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, and Trip attempts. Touch attacks are a huge weakness against casters, and this feat can fix that. Requires Shield Specialization. PHBII 82.

Shock Trooper: Let’s you shift your Power Attack penalty to AC, and it gives you some very useful Bull Rush maneuvers as well. This feat is pretty much standard for any build with Leap Attack. Be warned though – dumping your AC can quickly lead to death. So be sure to work battlefield control (reach weapon + Stand Still or Knockback or something similar) into your build BEFORE you take Shock Trooper. Complete Warrior pg 112.

Steadfast Determination: You can use your Con mod instead of your Wis mod for your Will Save, and you no longer auto fail a Fort Save on a roll of 1. Will Saves are one of the biggest weak points of most tanks, and this feat solves that problem. Requires Endurance. PHBII

Three Mountains Style: If you hit an enemy twice in the same round with your mace/morningstar/greatclub, they must Save or be Nauseated for 1 round. Although the prereqs are annoying (Improved Bull Rush, Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus), only Weapon Focus is a bad feat choice, and Nauseated is a potent effect. Complete Warrior pg 114.

Tomb Tainted Soul: You are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive. Now your allies can dump Uttercold or Enervated spells in the middle of combat to heal you and harm (non-undead) enemies. Libris Mortis pg 31.

Tunnel Fighter: When you hit your enemy from higher ground (like when you’re mounted, or climb/fly above the enemy), your enemy must make a Balance check or be knocked Prone or give up his next Move action. When in a tunnel, you can block line of site, so your enemies can’t target your allies standing behind you. (Useful if you spend a lot of time in dungeons). Requires that you be a Dwarf or Gnome. Dungeonscape pg 46.

Willing Deformity + Deformity (Tall): +3 to Intimidate and +5 feet to your natural reach. Heroes of Horror pg 121.

teslas
2010-08-10, 05:23 PM
Unfortunately, dungeon crasher just isn't an option.

Yorrin:

That's probably too many 3.0 feats to ask to allow. I'm not sure what "Large" is but he's very likely to shoot down anything that makes me be considered anything but Medium, as would I as the DM in this situation.

Person Man:

I appreciate all of the absolutely quality work you've done, but a link to your thread would have been very sufficient. Also, as I had stated before, a lot of what you've pasted has been disallowed.

I had forgotten about the Resolute ACF in Complete Champion. That is definitely a must.

ericgrau
2010-08-10, 05:25 PM
Yeah, an animated shield is better at high levels, though silly conceptually IMO. At low levels you'll want to wield one. A rapier will give more damage than a longsword in the long run thanks to crits (and the drawback against crit immune foes is almost nothing), and works fine for both strength damage and wielding two handed later on b/c it is not actually a light weapon. If you start two-handed, ditto for falchion. Yeah, you'll lose another 1.5 damage for sticking with the rapier late game due to your feats, but that's the minor trade-off for low level functionality while planning for the future. Compared to a longsword at low levels you only lose half a point of damage. Option B is a two handed reach weapon, which provides some tactical defense instead, perhaps with some trip, and could be used from levels 1-20. But that doesn't seem to be your Final Fantasy I style.

Tanking is not a function of a fighter 20. He does not draw aggro. You'll need to add feats to draw aggro and probably get some reach, or stick to the original purpose of defense: protecting YOU. Unlike final fantasy I, fighters still die. That means you still pump both offense and defense. You pump defense purely because it tends to be much cheaper than offense and buys you more time to deal damage without dying or running. You pump offense because that is your real goal, but it likewise can only go so far because it's so expensive and most of your offense comes automatically from class levels. It's just hard to add to from there.

Here's a nice vanilla SAB fighter build for you in case you can't use the masses of text others have posted: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20

If allowed and if you don't mind the flavor, you can switch to THF + animated shield at high levels. The feats you have seem fine, or whatever others suggested that will fly with your DM.

Eldariel
2010-08-10, 05:31 PM
I'd still two-hand. Then I'd get an Animated Shield once possible, or if I were stubborn about it, burn a feat on Improved Buckler Defense to just get the best of both worlds. Two-Handed Fighting has too big advantages to ignore.

If I were to learn to Tank, I'd thus focus on gaining as many ways to control my enemies as possible. The build would thus look something like tis:

Zhentarim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Fighter (I assume Dex is high enough to use lighter armors anyways)
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2: Dungeoncrasher
3: Power Attack, Skill Focus: Intimidate (Zhentarim)
4: Resolute ACF [CChampion]
6: Improved Bull Rush, Dungeoncrasher (improved)
8: Combat Reflexes
9: Imperious Command
10: Shock Trooper
12: Robilar's Gambit, Martial Study: Foehammer
14: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
15: Mage Slayer
16: Overpowering Attack
18: Stand Still, Leap Attack
20: Pierce Magical Protection

This, of course, gives you most importantly the tools to do a Tank's job:
- Between your Bull Rush, Trip, Combat Reflexes & Imperious Command-empowered Zhentarim Demoralization, you have a huge array of means to control various opponents' position on the battlefield and their possible actions. Thanks to your class features and feats, you can also deal damage while Bull Rushing or Tripping thus allowing both actions to also contribute towards victory in the fight.
- Between Resolute, Dungeoncrasher & your skills, you are decently durable on the battlefield and are going to be hard to kill, especially with decent Con and defensive gear. You should wield a reach weapon though to protect yourself from melee opponents without reach.
- Your skillpoints from Thug make you slightly better-equipped to deal with any non-combat challenges than your standard Fighter. I assume your Int is also at least decent. Skilled City-Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) opens up few more skills as class skills.
- As you have no weapon-specific feats, you are quite versatile with regards to which weapons you use. Though unfortunately, there was no room for Rapid Shot (nor will you probably be able to keep your Dexterity up as you boost your Str and there's definitely no room for Knowledge Devotion and Education if you want to maintain your skill-aspect). You could try and fit Quick Draw and Brutal Throw in there if you want a usable ranged aspect, but again, the room is pretty tight.

ericgrau
2010-08-10, 05:37 PM
I'd still two-hand. Then I'd get an Animated Shield once possible, or if I were stubborn about it, burn a feat on Improved Buckler Defense to just get the best of both worlds. Two-Handed Fighting has too big advantages to ignore.
"Once possible" is level 9 or 10. That's a long time to be without one. Unless his DM lets million damage ubercharger stuff like shock-trooper fly, he'll be at a disadvantage as his damage-before-dropping-or-fleeing will decrease without a shield. The small price to pay is 1.5 damage per hit lost at high levels when he'll be at 25-40 damage per hit even before he switches to THF. If his DM won't even allow a large size, how do you expect shock trooper to get through? Via the same publishing oversight that caused a mere 1/3 of a feat to appear in 75% of suggested fighter builds? I mean who even mentions the other 2/3 of shock trooper?

teslas
2010-08-10, 05:49 PM
I'm personally against an animated shield as a common item in a game. While my DM would allow it, he probably feels the same way as I do. If I did get an animated shield, I'd probably be standing in an anti-magic field for the entirety of the campaign, with my shield as animated as the rock its laying next to on the floor.

I definitely want the THF aspects as many of you have addressed, which is why I went with a buckler and its corresponding feats.

Because this is a FF1-esque game, I'm sure the lack of my ability to draw aggro will be aided by:

1: We'll be in hallways a lot
2: A lot of enemies are low-INT, attacking whoever is closest
3: Simple battlefield positioning


Keld Denar:

That build looks pretty damn fun. I might consider it or something very like it if not in this game, one very soon.

Eldariel
2010-08-10, 05:52 PM
"Once possible" is level 9 or 10. That's a long time to be without one. Unless his DM lets million damage ubercharger stuff like shock-trooper fly, he'll be at a disadvantage as his damage-before-dropping-or-fleeing will decrease without a shield. The small price to pay is 1.5 damage per hit lost at high levels when he'll be at 25-40 damage per hit even before he switches to THF. If his DM won't even allow a large size, how do you expect shock trooper to get through?

*shrug* Shock Trooper is fairly innocous alone. It's a "problem" (as in, more-than-expected damage, but in no way more powerful than what the truly broken classes can accomplish) with Pounce and Charge Multipliers. Alone, what it does is allow a Fighter to deal ~full damage first round of combat, something Fighter badly needs anyways. It may be a crude patch, but it's still a patch to Fighter's inability to efficiently deal damage after moving. Besides, Shock Trooper is rather key with Dungeoncrasher; the two synergise tremendously, especially with Improved Trip in the mix too. As such, I wouldn't expect it to see banhammer.

And in your math, you again forget that THF gets you reach, which reduces melee damage inflicted tremendously (as Enlarged you can trip people preventing them from ever making attacks in the first place, and more importantly protect your allies), and more importantly, allows you to tank which is what he's wanting to do. What good is a Fighter if he can't protect his teammates? It's a Fighter's job to ensure the enemies engage him and he can't do that if the Orcs can charge past him; he needs to be able to stop that, and having the 20' range as an Enlarged Fighter is quite worthwhile. I posit an S&B Fighter without EWP to gain a one-handed reach weapon cannot do a Fighter's job due to how game rules handle combat turns, and thus isn't a worthwhile party member. In a solo game, it's quite fine (though you still take a lot of extra attacks from the melee opponents due to your inability to prevent them from getting in range) but in a party it's just not kosher.


Also, actually, Jotunbrud is an excellent call. If you must wield a shield, trade for an Extreme Shield and pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kusari-Gama. That'll allow you to control area even while wielding a shield. It means you'll do quite little damage (only 1xStr to damage and no chance to use Power Attack) but still, you can be the Fighter and be very problematic for enemies.

Also, I strongly, strongly recommend Zhentarim Fighter if at all possible; it removes many of the dead levels Fighter suffers of and allows you to actually be as intimidating as you'd imagine for a towering man clad in 20 kilos of steel. It's free content too!

Also, if you want a golfbag of weapons and tools, Weapon Focus-line is just bad; it only applies to one weapon strongly discouraging the "master of all"-style a golfbagful of weapons would suggest. Tho if going one-handed exotic, it can be a decent addition to your composite output (tho you'll still do most of the damage with weapon abilities).

EDIT: Going two-handed? Well, feel free to remove Dungeoncrasher from my build along with the Shock Trooper-line and just focus on Tripping, Intimidating and hacking at things.

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 06:01 PM
I'd probably be standing in an anti-magic field for the entirety of the campaign, with my shield as animated as the rock its laying next to on the floor.
No offense, but that sounds dumb. Thats gonna hurt everyone else at the table just so you can't have your little toy. You're wizard and cleric can't cast, your bard can't use most of his abilities (the SU ones), the druid can't Wildshape (its SU), and nobody gets any magic weapons or items. Sounds like a pretty lame time to me. The point of the game is to play, not to take everyone's toys away. You may not like animated shields, but they are hardly overpowered. You want overpowered, take the fighter, have him take Toughness 16 times and then Polymorph him into a Hydra. There, THAT'S overpowered.


Keld Denar:

That build looks pretty damn fun. I might consider it or something very like it if not in this game, one very soon.

Glad you like it. It wasn't exactly difficult or origional. Just slapped a bunch of crap together. In all honestly, melee classes should be diptastic with a huge splattering of base and prestige classes. Casters are adaptable because they have a wide diversity of class features, called spells. Melee are adaptable because they only really care about BAB, and BAB from Fighter levels is just as good as BAB from Barbarian levels which is just as good as BAB from Pious Templar levels which is just as good as BAB from Occult Slayer levels. You figure out the abilities you want, and you plan and dip accordingly. Thats the blessing and curse of melee classes, one thing casters can't take away from them (sure, they can have PrCs, but they seldom splash other base classes except for gishes and crappy theurges). Straight Fighter20 is not only featureless, but boring and dramatically lacking in cool toys. I'd rather take 5 levels of Occult Slayer and get Mindblank so I don't become some punk wizard's tool, something not easily accessable through feats (other than Deformity: Madness). I'd rather get Mettle from a dip in Pious Templar, allowing me to shrug off more magical effects than normal. I'd rather get cool abilities to augement my rage like those from Bear Warrior or Frenzied Berzerker. I'd rather do anything than straight Fighter20.

Draz74
2010-08-10, 06:02 PM
Sword-and-board (sans Animated Shield or similar) becomes quite nice with enough feats, and if you can figure out a good way besides Power Attack to pick up weapon damage (that's the hard part).

The key feats are Improved Shield Bash {PHB}, Agile Shield Fighter and Shield Ward {PHB2}, and Martial Study (shield block) {Tome of Battle}. The latter in particular is often ignored, but once per encounter it will let you really be a "tank" -- see that your ally got hit by something nasty, then add +6 or so to their AC against the attack retroactively.

Dungeoncrasher, too, should be pretty decent at most levels even if you don't fully trick it out with all of the Shock Trooper/Knockback stuff. Again, you can improve it with Martial Study (charging minotaur). However, as you might be able to guess at this point, you're going to want to take Martial Study more than three times, and you can't.

A few more Martial Studies that I would covet as a Fighter:

- Pouncing Charge (can only be taken at L18+).
- Iron Heart Surge (duh)
- White Raven Tactics (duh)
- Mountain Hammer
- Moment of Perfect Mind
- Insightful Strike
- Mighty Throw
- Disarming Strike

Yeah. Definitely a pick-and-choose situation.

Also, if you're going to Fighter 20 anyway, you could consider the Weapon Focus feat tree, since Weapon Supremacy {PHB2} is pretty cool. The prerequisites are bad enough that it's still not a no-brainer choice.

teslas
2010-08-10, 06:14 PM
No offense, but that sounds dumb. Thats gonna hurt everyone else at the table just so you can't have your little toy. You're wizard and cleric can't cast, your bard can't use most of his abilities (the SU ones), the druid can't Wildshape (its SU), and nobody gets any magic weapons or items. Sounds like a pretty lame time to me. The point of the game is to play, not to take everyone's toys away. You may not like animated shields, but they are hardly overpowered. You want overpowered, take the fighter, have him take Toughness 16 times and then Polymorph him into a Hydra. There, THAT'S overpowered.

The AM-field comment was mostly a joke. I just wanted to convey my opinion for a mere +enhancement cost, one is able to get their offhand back as well as ALL other functionality of a shield. This leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.

There have been enough talks about the virtues and anti-virtues of animated shields already though.

edit:
And I agree with you about how boring it should be with straight fighter 20, but it's something I've never done before. The fact that I have enough feats to do whatever I want with them is entertaining in its own right. Finally, in the mentioned setting of this campaign, I am sure I'll enjoy almost any build. I don't really have the need to be the biggest, baddest person at the table, or even that I'm not the weakest.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-10, 06:24 PM
Best 1h weapons...

Longsword, of course

Warhammer is good for bludgeoning, but not very much better than the Morningstar (simple), which has bludgeoning and piercing

Saber is better than a longsword, because it is slashing OR piercing, and +1 to attack if used while mounted

Scimitar is better than a rapier for non finesse folks, since it is better two handed as well

Trident is a good, 1handed, throwable, vs charge weapon

Seriously, two handed martial weapons are just better than 1 handed martial weapons in general! The Duom has reach 10' and threaten adjacent, that's great! Shields arent all that great...

And if this is final fantasy... why aren't you playing a dragoon?

teslas
2010-08-10, 06:50 PM
And if this is final fantasy... why aren't you playing a dragoon?

Final Fantasy 1, dog. No Dragoons.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-10, 07:11 PM
Final Fantasy 1, dog. No Dragoons.

Ah earliest I played was... four I think. Maybe V? Of course iii/vi, but everyone's played THAT one...

Thiyr
2010-08-10, 09:31 PM
And I see you edited the first post to answer the rest of my questions. Well then, let's go with something like:

Human: Throwback (3.0 feat, from Bastards and Bloodlines)
1: Old Blood (also 3.0 from B&B, pick any creature type that is normally large or larger)
F1: Power Attack
F2: Dungeoncrasher Variant
3: Large (again, 3.0 B&B)
F4: Improved Bull Rush
6: Combat Expertise
F6: Dungeoncrasher Variant
F8: Improved Trip
9: Knockback
F10: Shock Trooper
12: Improved Sunder
F12:Combat Brute
F14: Cleave
15: Hidden Talent (probably go with Expansion)
F16: Heavy Armor Optimization
18: Deflective Armor
F18: Great Cleave
F20: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization

It's a tripper/dungeoncrasher build with a nice AC and Great Cleave. Pick up reach weapon if possible. Spiked Chain is nice, and you might want to switch out Throwback for that.

Doesn't help that the only Bastards and Bloodlines that I've seen is a 3rd party book.

As for posting a build idea:

1: Improved Shield Bash
Human: Weapon Focus morning star
F1: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush
F4: Shield Charge (CWar)
6: Pushback (Mini)
F8: Cleave
9: Shield Slam (CWar)
F10: Three Mountains (CWar)
12: Shock Trooper (CWar
F12: Combat Expertise
F14: Improved Trip
15: Knock-down
F16:
18:
F18:
F20:

Not quite certain what to do with the last few feats, honestly. 2nd and 6th levels are dungeoncrasher. First round, charging shield bash. This activates shield charge (for a free trip attempt), shield slam (to daze them for a round, dc based on strength), pushback (to get a free special bullrush attempt, which can push an enemy back 5 feet either back or diagonally, and then follow them to the square they left), which would also trigger the first ability from shock trooper (meaning you could potentially push them back five and left or right ten squares.). If the trip from shield charge failed, odds are, you've qualified for knock down as well, for another attempt. If either work, you get a free attack from improved trip.

Following rounds, full attack away. Three Mountains keeps them nauseated, and knock down keeps them knocked down, meaning they can stand up, nothing more. Get them to a wall, and they're taking dungeon crasher damage every hit as well. Put aptitude on the shield so that you can apply Three Mountains to it as well, and perhaps squeeze in agile shield fighter to get further attacks in. Get pounce or swift action movement in, and you could potentially break formations pretty well as well.

Escheton
2010-08-10, 10:42 PM
lvl 1 Combat expertise, Improved Trip, Combat reflexes. (at lvl 1 the +4 to hit and loss of a move action and AoO is huge)
lvl 2 Curling wave strike.(at lvl 2 you start encountering slightly larger groups or stronger duo's)
lvl 3 Knockdown. (because you will start encountering foes with higher str or better size bonuses and you won't try tripping. Now it's free on attacks.)
lvl 4 Exotic weapon prof: harpoon (because you need combat control outside the 15ft you own)
lvl 6 Point blank shot, rapid shot (using least crystals to draw harpoons as free actions)(3 harpoons per round means multiple foes are movement hampered, or lose a turn. Or...1 foe is hozed if in an open area)
lvl 8 Power attack (the point where you have some items and decent bab to make actual use of the feat now that your attackbonus is decent even with a nerf.
lvl 9 Cleave (because knockdown and cleave are just sweet together)
lvl 10 Improved crit (well, duh)
lvl 12 Great cleave (to deal with the 3,879 Orcs), penetrating shot (+1 exploding longbow?)
lvl 14 Robilars gambit (you hit me, I hit you, you fall down, I hit your friend, he falls down, continue till one keeps standing)
lvl 15 Defensive sweep (works best when on difficult terrain, and at this lvl combat usually is)
lvl 16 Overwhelming assault (this and defensive sweep work best when using methods of stunning your foe or making otherwise sure he simply cannot take actions, something the party cleric or mage should be able to do easily)
lvl 18 Improved bull rush, Quick recovery (because no save stun effects are otherwise killer)
lvl 20 Shock trooper (now that you actually have the bab and pimped armor to use it to its fullest advantage)

Think that about covers it for a clean efficient well rounded build.
That mainly uses a guisarme. No sword and board unless tunnelfighting please.
No flaws or extra feats used. If you like too add tunnelfighting utility feel free to use those feats for sword and board improvement.

Ernir
2010-08-11, 09:15 PM
Hmmm. If I were to build a Fighter, and know I had to take the class all the way to 20... you better get (almost) everything you need through feats. So this would be on my shopping list:

1. A way to deal damage. It's what Fighters are expected to do. Something like Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper, or a Dungeoncrasher combo whould be enough for me.

2. A way to inflict horrible status conditions. Dazed, Stunned, Nauseated, and Cowering are the conditions I want my opponents to have the most. Luckily, they are all accessible via feats. Dire Flail Smash, Shape Soulmeld: Incarnate Weapon + Open Chakra (Arms), Three Mountains Style, Imperious Command. If these weren't so prerequisite-heavy, I'd be wanting two or three different ones on every Fighter...

3. Battlefield control, A.K.A. a way to make the monsters not charge the squishies. Tripping, Stand Still, Martial Study + Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades. Boosting your reach helps, so stuff like EWP: Spiked Chain, Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach comes into play too.

4. Mobility and/or ranged abilities, because not being able to attack is embarrassing when attacking is all you really know how to do. Archery feats if you want, but I'd prefer solving it with magic items and taking a flying race. Maybe Travel Devotion.

5. Defenses. So you're not automatically the Wizard's toy. Things like Steadfast Determination, Willing Deformity + Deformity: Madness, Quick Recovery.

Edelweiss
2010-09-10, 10:53 PM
Well I think Zhentarim is a strictly Forgotten Realms organization so I didn't take that stuff, and strictly speaking I think champion's of valor is a FR book too :smallfrown: which is where resolute is from. I made a build that I've been wanting to play for a while that mostly fits what you wanted but I have'nt played straight fighter.

1: Exotic weapon proficiency : Dwarven Warpike
fighter: Shield and pike style
human: combat expertise
fighter 2: Improved trip
3: knockdown
fighter 4: combat reflexes
6: Deft opportunist
fighter 6: Heavy armor optimization
fighter 8: power attack
9: endurance (heh :/ )
fighter 10: greater heavy armor optimization
12: steadfast determination
fighter 12: martial study... pick one
fighter 14: robilar's gambit
15: martial stance, thicket of blades
fighter 16: mage slayer
18: pierce magical protection
fighter 18: defensive sweep
fighter 20: quick recovery

shield and pike style ( it's from a dragon magazine but I don't recall which one) lets you use a light shield with a piercing polearm and might be closer to maintaining your sword and board idea even though it's a THF build. This build is also going to probably focus on AoO to do most of its work as the only real offensive feats are power attack and your martial study. I chose the dwarven warpike because it is piercing or slashing and I needed pircing for the whole build to actually work, but it can be readied vs. a charge if you ever feel the need to do that >_> and it's a trip weapon :D has nice damage at 2d6 and in general I like it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-10, 11:35 PM
Human with no FR feats (Jotunbrud) means you'll need Enlarge Person + Permanency to get Knock-Back, which is pretty necessary if you're using the Dungeoncrasher ACF. I'll assume the party's arcane caster can do that for him at 9th level. Zhentarim Soldier is an absolute must-have if it's available, but no setting specific material will probably disqualify it. It can easily be reflavored to suit any bully-type background rather than members of a specific organization, and adding it will only improve the build. I'll also assume he'll eventually get an animated shield, and that he'll be able to grab two levels of Exotic Weapon Master at his 11th and 12th character levels:

Human: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Tigerskull Club (Frostburn)
1: Combat Expertise
F1: Improved Trip
F2: Dungeoncrasher
3: Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)
F4: Power Attack
6: Item Familiar (Tigerskull Club)
F6: Dungeoncrasher
F8: Improved Bull Rush
9: Knock-Back
F10: Weapon Focus: Tigerskull Club
EWM1: Uncanny Blow
12: Leap Attack
EWM2: Trip Attack
F12: Combat Reflexes
15: Weapon Specialization: Tigerskull Club
F14: Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing
18: Greater Weapon Focus: Tigerskull Club
F16: Greater Weapon Specialization: Tigerskull Club
F18: Weapon Supremacy: Tigerskull Club

Every hit has a chance of knocking an opponent prone starting at 3rd level. At 9th level every hit also gives you a free Bull Rush attempt, though you don't have to move with the opponent. If you knock them back into a wall or solid surface they take a huge amount of damage from Dungeoncrasher. Opponents have to spend a move action to get up and another move action to get back into melee, so every attack you make wastes your target's entire turn. Once you get an animated shield you can use your weapon two-handed and get double your strength bonus to damage.

As your Item Familiar you'll get to upgrade your weapon yourself as though you had the proper item creation feats and all the prerequisites, including spellcasting and caster level. It counts as an intelligent item which means its treated as a construct, so it cannot be dispelled or disjoined and continues to function in an AMF and dead magic areas. You can't Slight of Hand or Sunder a creature, so your weapon cannot be a target of either of those as well. You can even give it a special purpose and dedicated power of your own choosing, as long as you can afford the item creation cost.

One Step Two
2010-09-11, 12:03 AM
Wow thats alot of feats. Here's my addition:

Human: Exotic Weapon Proficency (Greathammer) (MM IV page 101)
1st: Improved Inaitive
F1: Power Attack
F2: Cleave
3rd: Improved Bullrush
F4th: Great Cleave
6th: Combat Brute
F6: Shock Trooper
F8: Leap attack

I'm just going to pause here, these feats are pure damage dealing. The Greathammer is a beautiful scary weapon, 1d12 damage with a 19-20 x4 Crit Range, get Impact enchanted on it for that ever so dilectable 17-20 Crit range that normally only bladed weapons enjoy.

Use bonus feats to get buckler specialisations, dodge and the like, but for damage, you should be just dandy.

Also, in the Drow of the Underdark Book, there's an ACF called Hit-and-Run Fighter, it's meant for drow, but if your DM is open to it, you trade out your heavy armour and tower shield proficencies, to get +2 to initiative, and add dex to damage

Edelweiss
2010-09-11, 08:04 AM
I think you need to add improved sunder in there to get combat brute. But yeah that build looks good, I wonder why people don't look at combat brute much because it is a pretty cool way to hurt things with momentum swing.

Cespenar
2010-09-11, 11:08 AM
Less optimized than the others, but:

L1: Power Attack
Human: Combat Expertise
Fighter 1: Improved Trip
Fighter 2: Improved Shield Bash
L3: Shield Charge
Fighter 4: Improved Bull Rush
L6: Shield Slam
Fighter 6: Shock Trooper

Fill the rest with whatever you want. Heedless Shield Charge your opponent, they fail their save, they're dazed. Plus, you get a free trip attempt, and a free attack if your trip succeeds.

SurlySeraph
2010-09-11, 11:24 AM
The AM-field comment was mostly a joke. I just wanted to convey my opinion for a mere +enhancement cost, one is able to get their offhand back as well as ALL other functionality of a shield. This leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.

If you want a functional shield and two-handed weapons without an Animated shield, you can use a heavily enchanted buckler and the feat Improved Buckler Defense, perhaps adding Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, etc. if you have feats to burn. Strictly worse than an animated tower shield, but if that's what you want...

Flickerdart
2010-09-11, 12:43 PM
Sword and board is for squares. Just carry a shield, and take Improved Shield Bash. Boom, it's now a weapon and a shield. Spike it, enchant the spikes and now you've got a magic weapon. Enchant it with Throwing and Returning and now you're Captain America.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-11, 01:01 PM
Human: Combat Reflexes
1: Evasive Reflexes
F1: Power Attack
F2: Intimidating Strike
3: Goad
F4: Combat Expertise
6: Improved Bull Rush
F6: Brutal Strike
F8: Shield Specialization (Heavy)
9: Shock Trooper
F10: Shield Ward
12: Dodge
F12: Heavy Armor Optimization
F14: Deflective Armor
15: Overwhelming Assault
F16: Melee Evasion
18: Combat Panache
F18: Improved Shield Bash
F20: Active Shield Defense

Human: Combat Reflexes
1: Evasive Reflexes
F1: Dodge
F2: Vexing Flanker
3: Mobility
F4: Adaptable Flanker
6: Spring Attack
F6: Intimidating Strike
F8: Combat Focus
9: Skill Knowledge (Tumble)
F10: Acrobatic Strike
12: Combat Awareness
F12: Bounding Assault
F14: Combat Acrobat
15: Combat Defense
F16: Combat Stability
18: Combat Vigor
F18: Rapid Blitz
F20: Combat Strike