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View Full Version : 4th Ed: MORE @ wills



Avid_Fan
2010-08-10, 06:30 PM
Not sure if someone has already posted this idea. I was thinking of a way to give players more powers without becoming unbalanced (in theory).

Give players access to all of the @ wills in their class at first level. Then at each even level they get 2 ... training points to spend on their @ will powers. There would have to be max ranks (like 3rd edition skills) in an @ will power that is half level. So characters could spend their 2 training points in the same 2 powers, in which case you'd have 2 @ wills that you add half level to hit as normal. OR you could spread it out over a few more powers.

Humans would get 3 points to spend each even level to maintain their racial benfit.

I thouht of this mainly because I like a variety of powers and would like to introduce more powers to players without unbalancing the system.

Apalala
2010-08-10, 10:42 PM
Sounds okay, except for those few at-wills that don't rely on an attack roll, like the new Magic Missile. The at-wills would gradually get overshadowed by encounter and daily powers if their accuracy tanked, but I can see it coming in handy at the lower levels.

BumblingDM
2010-08-11, 10:46 PM
The 4th ed magic missle requires an attack roll IIRC

Boci
2010-08-12, 05:16 AM
The 4th ed magic missle requires an attack roll IIRC

Most recent errate changes that.

Yakk
2010-08-12, 01:44 PM
So you boost the choices per-turn of low level characters through the roof, introduce a trap (if you spread your points around too far, you end up with crappy accuracy on all of them), clutter up high level characters with at-wills that are worse than useless (because the DM is less likely to let a player stunt an at-will at a reasonable accuracy that the player already has at a low accuracy), and ...

what do you get out of it again?

Boci
2010-08-13, 06:15 AM
So you boost the choices per-turn of low level characters through the roof, introduce a trap (if you spread your points around too far, you end up with crappy accuracy on all of them), clutter up high level characters with at-wills that are worse than useless (because the DM is less likely to let a player stunt an at-will at a reasonable accuracy that the player already has at a low accuracy), and ...

what do you get out of it again?

I'm giessing its aimed at lower levels where the chances are halfway through the fight everyone is left with their at wills. Personally I'd just give each class three at wills, humans can have 4.

Yakk
2010-08-13, 09:15 AM
Meh -- at level 1, monsters melt. A level 1 rogue can average half the HP of a level 1 monster, even including misses, using at-wills.

(20 dex, Piercing Strike, Dagger, Backstabber and Expertise(Light Blade). With CA, +12 to hit and 16.5(25 on crit) damage. Misses only on a 1 for 16.1 average damage per round).

And that isn't anomolous, nor even optimal, even if it is higher than most:

18 str Ranger, Bastard Swords, Weapon Focus. With CA +9 to hit against average AC of 15, hitting on a 6+. .65/.1 HQ hit/crit, 1.4 hits and 0.1 crits per round. HQ is 3.5(6), Bastard Sword is 6.5(11), for 13.075 damage per round on average.

18 wis Avenger, Fullblade, Power attack doing a basic attack. With CA +7 to hit against average AC of 15, hitting on an 8+. Damage is 13.5(25.5) per hit. .1 crits .78 hits per round, for 13 DPR.

18 dex/16 wis monk using some generic d10 at-will. Expertise/Weapon focus. +7 vs Reflex of 13 with CA, hitting on an 6+. .05 crits .7 hits for 15.5(24) for 12.05 DPR (note that the monks bread-and-butter is going to be a close burst 1 attack. If you can get 2 targets in the radius, your DPR to the primary target goes up by 1, as you have 2 chances to get the flurry off).

Even non-strikers can do brutal things at level 1: an one hand weapon talent 18 str/16 con fighter using a waraxe with brash strike is +11 vs AC with CA doing 13.5(19) damage, hitting on a 4+ (.8 hits .05 crits) for 11.75 damage per round on average.

My point, other than throwing numbers around? Be really clear what you are aiming for.

Combat at low levels is already brutally short, if players are playing quickly and smart with characters built to kill things. You don't tend to wander off into at-will spam because the monsters are dead on round 3.

The above solution only grants full strength extra at-wills at level 1 -- the access to extra at-wills ends up being a trap shortly after that point, and by level 10 if you are buying up more than the standard number your character will be noticeably worse than those who don't.

And, in my experience, the "at-will spam" gets worst around level 10, when you are sitting at the end of heroic with a tight magic item budget, access only to heroic tier feats (and generally picking marginal ones for your 6th or 7th choice), no access to paragon path features or powers, and generally being pretty anemic damage-wise.

Boci
2010-08-13, 03:35 PM
And, in my experience, the "at-will spam" gets worst around level 10, when you are sitting at the end of heroic with a tight magic item budget, access only to heroic tier feats (and generally picking marginal ones for your 6th or 7th choice), no access to paragon path features or powers, and generally being pretty anemic damage-wise.

By lower levels I meant 6-9.

Yakk
2010-08-13, 09:23 PM
By level 6, if you buy up 3 at-wills you are at -1 to hit with all of them.

And by the description above (which can be fixed) you never recover that -1 to hit. It just gets worse.

A simpler method is simply add in a feat that gives you an additional at-will power. This keeps characters simple, and scales with character level.

Boci
2010-08-13, 09:32 PM
By level 6, if you buy up 3 at-wills you are at -1 to hit with all of them.

And by the description above (which can be fixed) you never recover that -1 to hit. It just gets worse.

A simpler method is simply add in a feat that gives you an additional at-will power. This keeps characters simple, and scales with character level.

Why spend a feat? Just give it to them for free.