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Aran Banks
2010-08-11, 12:25 PM
So... I was looking for a way to make all races equivalent. I have one now, and I wanted to run it be GITP before packaging it and making it pretty:

Errata:
You can only take the (+2 stat, -2 stat) minor ability once when crafting a race. Just like you can only take the "+1 to all saves" ability once.
When it says "skill points", it means "skill points per level, and 4 at level 1".

HUMANS: Common + 1
Med
Major: 1 Feat
Minor: 3 skill points


ELVES: Common + Elven
Med
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: +2 Spot/Listen, no sleep (4 hour trance), detect secret doors
LLV


DWARVES: Common + Dwarven
Med
Major: +2 Con
Minor: +2 v. spells, stonecunning (including appraise bull****), dwarven build (+2 v. poison and +4 v. bullrush and trip)
DV


ORCS: Common + Orcish
Med
Major: +2 Str
Minor: (+2 Str, -2 Int), Orcish metabolish (+2 v. poison & disease, immunity to ingested poisons), +2 Athletics/Survival
DV


HALFLINGS: Common + Halfling
Sml
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: +1 to all saves, +2 Athletics/Move Silently, something


GNOMES: Common + Gnomish
Sml
Major: Basic access to either the shadow (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_%283.5e_Sphere%29) or deception (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48858) sphere (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Spheres_and_Feats#Fiendish_Spheres).
Minor: (+2 Con, -2 Str), illusion affinity (+2 v. illusions, +1 when using illusions), +2 Listen/Craft
LLV


HOBGOBLINS: Common + Goblin
Med
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: (+2 Con, -2 Cha/Per), +4 Move Silently, something
DV


GOBLINS: Common + Goblin
Sml
Major: Mounted Combat feat (when not a half-breed, +2 to Ride as well)
Minor: +2 Ride/Move Silently, +10 ft speed, (+2 Dex, -2 Str)
DV


PLANEBORN: Common + 1 plane language (Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Modron, Giant Frog, auran, aquan, ignan, terran)
Med
Major: +2 to any stat
Minor: (+2 to stat, -2 to stat), lvl 1 SLA 1/day, +2 to two skills... honestly, this one varies wildly.
DV


DEATHBORN: Common + 1
Med
Major: +2 to any stat
Minor: no sleep (4 hours inactivity), 25% chance to ignore crits & precision damage, no eating necessary
DV


DRAGONBORN:
Med
Major: +2 Con
Minor: Dunno...

HALF-BREEDS

There are a few ways to make half-breeds. As a DM, you get to choose.

A) Mix and match. You get 1 Major ability, 3 minor abilities (for the humans, that's 1 extra skill point each), and 1 extra type of sight (DV, LLV, whatever). Have fun.

B) You can be a half-breed: Pick the major and 1 minor ability from a single race list, and then 2 minor abilities and the visual trait from another race list. You can also be a quarter-breed: Pick 1 ability for each race list, and give the visual trait from a race with a minor ability. Quarter-breeds are basically the same as (A), so half-breeds are recommended.

C) Use pregenerated races. Who knows, maybe your DM believes that LLV is a dominant trait and that secret-door-searching is recessive. There will be pregenerated half-breeds soon.

OH! FORGOT TO MENTION SOMETHING! Half-breeds of the Planeborn are called Planetouched X (Planetouched elf, planetouched dwarf, etc), and half-breeds of Deathborn are Deathtouched just as Dragonborn half-breeds are Dragontouched. Did you see wat I did thar?


PREGENERATED HALF-BREEDS

HALF-ELF (Human/Elf): Common + Elven
Med
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: no sleep (4 hour trance), 2 skill points
LLV


HALF-DWARF (Human/Dwarf): Common + Dwarven
Med
Major: +2 Con
Minor: +2 v. spells, 2 skill points
DV


HALF-ORC (Human/Orc): Common + Orcish
Med
Major: +2 Str
Minor: Orcish metabolish, 2 skill points
DV


QUARTERLING/HALF-HALFLING/STRONGHEART HALFING (Human/Halfing): Common + Halfling
Sml
Major: 1 feat
Minor: 1 skill point, +2 athletics/move silently, something


HALF-GNOME (Human/Gnome): Common + Gnomish
Sml
Major: Basic access to the Shadow or Deception Sphere
Minor: 2 skill points, illusion affinity
LLV


HALF-HOB (Human/Hobgoblin): Common + Goblin
Med
Major: 1 feat
Minor: 1 skill points, +4 Move Silently, (+2 Con, -2 Cha/Per)
DV


HALF-GOBLIN (Human/Goblin): Common + Goblin
Sml
Major: 1 feat
Minor: +2 Ride/Move Silently, +10 ft. speed, 1 skill point
DV


PLANETOUCHED HUMAN (Human/Planeborn): Common + [1 language of the Planes]
Med
Major: 1 feat
Minor: (+2 stat, -2 stat), 1 skill point, lvl 1 SLA 1/day
DV


DEATHTOUCHED HUMAN (Human/Deathborn): Common + 1
Med
Major: +2 stat
Minor: no sleep (4 hours inactivity), 2 skill points
DV


DRAGONTOUCHED HUMAN (Dragon/Dragonborn): Common + Draconic
Med
Major: +2 Con
Minor: ...dunno...


PREGENERATED ELF VARIANTS

HIGH ELF: Common + Elvish
Med
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: +2 Spot/Listen, no sleep (4 hour trance), detect secret doors
LLV


DARK ELF (DROW): Common + Undercommon
Med
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: (+60' DV, Light Sensitivity), no sleep (4 hour trance), deeper darkness and faerie fire once per day
DV


AQUATIC ELVES: Common + Aquan
Med
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: Aquatic (breathe water, 40 ft swim speed, drown in air), no sleep (4 hour trance), +2 Spot/Listen
LLV x2


GRAY ELVES: Common + Elvish
Med
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: (+2 Int, -2 Str), no sleep (4 hour trance), detect secret doors
LLV


WILD AND WOOD ELVES: Common + Elvish
Med
Major: +2 Dex
Minor: (+2 Str, -2 Int), +2 Spot/Listen, no sleep (4 hour trance)
LLV


SUN ELVES: Common + Elvish
Med
Major: +2 Int
Minor: +2 Spot/Listen, detect secret doors, no sleep (4 hour trance)
LLV


STAR ELVES: Common + Elvish
Med
Major: Otherwordly Touch (look it up. p11 here (http://kiingdead.meatguild.org/3.5%20all/D&D%203.5%20-%20Forgotten%20Realms%20-%20Unapproachable%20East.pdf)),
Minor: (+2 Cha/Wil, -2 Con), no sleep (4 hour trance), detect secret doors
LLV

NOTE: Star Elves are Outsider (Elf, Extraplanar)


In accordance with this, I also have a feat.

Greater Potential
Prerequisite: Level 3 or higher.
Benefit: Increase one of your ability score by +2.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different ability score.

Zeta Kai
2010-08-11, 03:54 PM
Greater Potential
Prerequisite: Level 3 or higher.
Benefit: Increase one of your ability score by +2.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different ability score.

I can't speak for your races (mostly because I didn't read them), but that feat is Broken with a capital B. It is far & away too powerful, & it breaks the very economy of feat prerequisites. Ability score boosts are just not a thing that feats should do, & the stacking thing is especially egregious.

Aran Banks
2010-08-12, 03:26 PM
I disagree.
A +2 Dex gives you:
+1 AC, +1 Reflex, +1 Init. That sort of difference is noticed 1/20 rolls. I believe Frank Trollman put it something like this: "That sort of a difference is barely enough to distinguish the character who rolled well from the character who rolled poorly."
The +1 to initiative is about all anyone cares about.

+2 Str gives you:
+1 to hit, +1 damage. Same argument as above. The +1 to hit is the most important... and at high levels it matters less and less.

+2 Con gives you:
+1 HP/HD. +1 Fortitude. Woooo... I mean, the HP is nice, but it's not going to change much. +5 HP at level 5 is about as useful as +1 HP at level 1, since damage scales.

+2 Wis gives you:
+1 to perception checks, +1 Will, a possible casting bonus. +1 to casting DC's is the biggest problem here (bonus spells... yeah, whatever). Still, the DC boost is only 1. Same argument as above.

+2 Int gives you:
1 more skill point/level, another bonus language, +1 Search, a possible casting bonus. See the wisdom entry.

+2 Cha gives you:
A possible casting bonus... and if you care, +1 social interaction checks.

Yeah, so +1 to a stat doesn't bother me at all. Especially since you only get it once.

---------------------------------

Also, I dislike that whole "Feats shouldn't do this" argument. The idea behind this is that you're improving as a character. Saying that this shouldn't exist, and basing your assumptions off of feats like Natural Spell is very contradictory.

---------------------------------

Finally, the fact that you didn't even bother the read the races, and went right ahead to the part that you thought was broken is a little insulting. But whatever.

Zaydos
2010-08-12, 03:38 PM
Compare those benefits to feats though.

+1 to hit with one weapon is Weapon Focus, not the best feat but in Core only very useful. Also it is +1 to combat maneuver checks, and +1.5 damage with a 2-handed weapon. There's a reason melee combatants will put 18 in Str if possible and why 18s are valued so high in point buy.

+1 hp/level is the Improved Toughness feat, a decent feat that people will use. +1 to Fort saves is just a nice little icing on the cake.

+1 to spell save DC, stacking with Greater Spell Focus is a bad idea. Spell Focus is already a pretty good feat and all it does is +1 to spell save DC for 1 school of magic. 1 extra skill point/level is better than most feats, and the extra spells are as good as if not better than another feat. It's better than 3 feats (2 good ones at that) to get +2 to Int.

So yes Feat that grants +2 to ability score is too good. You might could argue the +2 Str or Dex one just to be nice to melee, but +2 to mental ability scores get too strong fast. Maybe if you limited the point to which it could raise the stat (i.e. before the feat is applied it must be no higher than 14 or something like that), or make it a purely racial ability. Also note the reason people take racial paragon classes from UA is to get the +2 to an ability score at Lv 3. Yes it is that good.

As for going straight to the broken part, that is part of critiquing. You identify the glaring errors first and once those are fixed you look at the minor mistakes.

If you want something on the races: 1) state that they get all the minor abilities at the top; 2) 3 skill points is less than +2 to a skill; 3) write out Low-Light Vision and Darkvision in parenthesis the first time you abbreviate them.

Also your half-breed system is fairly easy to abuse. For example half-hobgoblin/half-goblin gets +4 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Str, -2 Cha, +10-ft land speed and Darkvision, then I specialize in Shadow Hand and use Shadow Blade. My Str penalty doesn't matter anymore, and Charisma is a dump stat anyway. I have +10-ft speed and +2 to hit and damage as well as +1 hp/level. Compare to a human that has a bonus feat and 3 skill points (a major nerf btw).Much worse is actually the planetouched for example a planetouched dwarf: +2 to 2 stats of choice (Int and Con), -2 Cha (again a dump stat), +2 on saves versus magic, another useful dwarf ability, and Darkvision. This is much stronger than plain dwarf even in your version. Actually planetouched X will in general be always stronger than the base creature.

Aran Banks
2010-08-12, 03:55 PM
Combat Focus is a very bad feat. Fighter-level. Tier 5. It's incredibly weak. +1.5 damage isn't much more useful than +1, and that "+1 to combat maneuvers" really doesn't change anything. I mean, if you're losing the benefits of your magic sword, you might as well get +1 on grapple, trip, and disarm.

Improved Toughness is a feat that squishy people who can't defend themselves use. +1 HP/level and +1 Fort is slightly better than a moderate feat.

Spell Focus is a feat that everybody wants to get if they're using SoDs. However, it doesn't confer a ridiculous combat advantage, like the vast majority of opinion insinuates. Now, +2 to the DC of a spell is good... but since it's OK because it's worth two feats. At level 3, you've either burned all of your feats, or all but 1.

So no, a feat that grants +2 to an ability score is not too good. You might argue the existing WotC feats, but most of what you bring up goes no farther than Tier 3 (spell focus and its brother. The rest are quite weaker). I don't see why you'd want to raise a stat to 14 or higher--this is made so that you can make your 18 a 20.

As for going straight for the broken part... you'd think he'd at least say "your races are OK" or something. Had he read them and deigned not to comment, I'd be fine. The fact that he didn't even look at them is what annoys me.

Concerning races:
1) So the minor abilities are good? 2) A skill point is weaker than +2 to a skill (+2 to two skills, actually) at low levels. At high levels, though, the benefits of skill points vastly outweigh those of racial bonuses. Do you have a counter-argument to this?

Zaydos
2010-08-12, 04:03 PM
Is it +3 Skill points a level? Because max-ranks matter. Skill points matter because you can max out skills. Maxing out 5 skills is better at Lv 20 than maxing out 4 skills and having +2 to 2 of them. Maxing out 4 skills and having +2 to 2 of them is much better than maxing out 4 skills and having 1 rank each in 3 others; actually you can get the same bonus to your 4 important skills as if you had maxed them out (because of the +2 to 2 of them) and put those 4 ranks you saved into other skills thus giving you a net of +1 skill point if that's what you really wanted, although generally maxing 1 skill is better than dabbling in others.

As for the Int one, you failed to account for the extra 1st level spell, or skill points. And +3 to Save DCs at Lv 3 means that Color Spray has a DC of 19 (or Glitterdust has DC of 20; these assume you use Planetouched X to get 20 Int base) and you can end most encounters with one casting of either of those, especially with an extra use from the feat as well. At later levels metamagic feats can become more useful if you want to play a blaster mage and use Arcane Thesis to do insane amounts of damage, but these just make your save or dies that much more irresistible. Every +1 matters, a lot.

Aran Banks
2010-08-12, 04:12 PM
+3 skill points per level. Yes. And at wuxia levels, only the major racial benefit will matter. I'm talking levels 1-2: racial bonus favored, 4-7: skill points favored. That's really it.

For the Int one, if I'm adding an extra 1st-level spell for this +2 from a feat, my character a) didn't put 18 into their casting stat and/or didn't pick a race with a bonus to their casting stat. Why on earth they woud do that, I don't know, and b) is level 3. An extra level 1 spell isn't ridiculously overpowering. It's useful.

The extra skill point means I have +3 to a skill. Woop. And +3 to save DCs? I'm getting +1 here... Ohhhh, you're saying that if I add this feat to a race that's already got 20 to it's casting stat, then... sorry, how is that +3 again?

Every +1 is VALUED highly, but doesn't make a profound in-game difference. Instead of stunning 10/20 times, you now stun 11/20 times. I'm not seeing how that's super fantastic awesome.

Temotei
2010-08-12, 04:16 PM
For the Int one, if I'm adding an extra 1st-level spell for this +2 from a feat, my character a) didn't put 18 into their casting stat and/or didn't pick a race with a bonus to their casting stat. Why on earth they woud do that, I don't know, and b) is level 3. An extra level 1 spell isn't ridiculously overpowering. It's useful.

He neglected to mention that bonus spells don't just work with 1st-level spells, though. You could get a 4th-level spell slot, along with skill points, an increase to your spellcasting DCs (all of them), some bonuses to skills, and, if you're lucky, perhaps a bonus to some class feature.

If you want to use the feat, fine, but it's not balanced.

Aran Banks
2010-08-12, 04:24 PM
Actually, you can get a 4th-level spot by putting 18 in your stat. You get a 5th-level slot if you play your caster well (18 + 2 racial bonus), so this feat should classically be granting you a 6th-level spell slot... of course, it doesn't even happen there, because at level 4 and 8, you increased your casting number. So you're actually using this feat to give yourself a 7th-level slot. But by the time you're getting that, you're also getting lesser planar binding, which means you get +5 to all stats from smacking Efreeti around.

You'll also have 2 extra first, second, and third level spells (24 stat)... but, again, useful. Not overpowered. The only time I'd be edgy is when you have a stat of 22 at level 3, and you're gaining 2 bonus spells instead of only 1. But that doesn't bother me too much.

EDIT: Please don't pull that kind of "I'm above you" talk.

'If you want to hate the feat, fine, but it's balanced.'

cooperflood
2010-08-12, 04:30 PM
Major Abilities:


Sphere access is easily the most powerful ability given.
Feat access is clearly the second most powerful ability. Possibly could even be better than sphere access depending on what feats are available.
Getting +2 to an attribute really pales in comparision to both of these abilities.


Minor Abilities:


1 Skill Point vs +2 to two skills isn't balanced. I would always take the skill bonus. 1 skill point is the weakest of the minor abilities.
Why are Darkvision and Lowlight Vision throwaway/add on abilites. Shouldn't they count as at-least minor abilities.
From a balance perspective +2 to a stat and (+2, -2) are essentially the same thing, particularly when I get to choose the stats. So calling one a minor and the other a major is kind of silly.


Conclusion:

If I were using your Mix and Match method. I would grab Sphere access, +2 to any two skills, +2 to my primary ability, -2 to my dump stat, darkvision, and +2 vs Saves. This wouldn't be a game breaking character by anymeans, but it would most certainly be better than some of the stated options.

Aran Banks
2010-08-12, 04:38 PM
I find that +2 to a stat is about as good as a feat, if you're min/maxing. +2 to a random physical or mental stat is pretty bad, but +2 to one of your chosing is fine... I also find this ironic, since there are so many people on here complaining about how +2 stat is way too strong for a feat.

The sphere access was all that really bothered me. I was thinking about giving some cantrip 1/day and then sphere access 2 levels late... or maybe it couldn't combine with class-based sphere accessing (No level 3 Conduits with unlimited lightning bolt and shocking ray.) What say you?

---

+1 skill point is fine. At low levels, that racial bonus wins out, but +2 is a lot smaller than +8 at level 5.

Darkvision/LLV: a) making them minor abilities decreases the amount of racial fluff I can give each race, since almost all of them have some kind of sight, b) 60' DV and x2 LLV just doesn't matter all that much to me. I mean, a party with all DV means no one has to carry the torch. Which really doesn't change much. And LLV is soooo weak that it can't be reasonably traded for anything.

Your minmax:
Sphere problem addressed above. Halp would be nice. I'm OK with +2 to 2 skills, and the +2/-2 for minmaxxing. The +1 to all saves (not +2. I assume that's a typo) was another thing that bothered me. Do you think that's too much?

cooperflood
2010-08-12, 05:33 PM
I really don't think sphere's as a class ability is servicably for a 0 LA race, but at minimum it can't be combined with any other sphere access and should be delayed.

I meant Saves +2 vs Magic which is really is +2 to saves 95% of the time.

Is it one skill point or one skill point per level? One skill point per level is a solid useful ability. One skill point on the other hand is worse than a +1 unnamed bonus. The bonus at-least helps min-max some of your skills. 1 skill point on the other hand you won't even notice at 1st level.

In an all Darkvision party everybody wears Rings of Darkhidden. Surely you can see the utility? I agree Low-light vision is pretty meh, but it seems like your just punishing those races that don't get it, like Halflings. I wouldn't eliminate it, I would just give every race 4 minor abilities.

If I were building races using your methodology I would do something like this:

Human:
Major: Bonus Feat
Minor: 1 Skill Point Per Level (cost two minor abilities), +2 to any one stat, Proficency in any one weapon including exotic.

Dragoborn:
Major: Breathweapon: 15ft Cone (Electric, Fire, or Cold) (1d6+1/2 Level Damage) Reflex Save 10+1/2 Character Level +CON, 1d4 recharge time
Minor: +2 CON, +2 Athletics/Acrobatics, Superior Lowlight Vision, Energy Resistance (same as breathweapon)(5+1/4 Character Level)

Dwarf:
Major: Stonesense (Stonecunning, Stone Shape 1/day)
Minor: Darkvision 60ft, +2 Saves vs Magic, +2 CON, Dwarven Build

Gnome:
Major: Illusionist (Illusion Affinenity, Major Image 1/day)
Minor: +2 Listen/Craft, Lowlight Vision, Speak with Animals (burrowing only)(at-will), Ghost Sound (at-will)

Halfling:
Major: Natural Rogue (+1d6 Sneak Attack, Opponents Flat-Footed during Surprise Rounds)
Minor: +1 Saves, +2 Dex, +1 Attack/Damage Thrown Weapons, +2 Athletics/Move Silently

Elf:
Major: Natural Arcanist (+2 Spell Penetration, Any one 1st or 2nd Wizard Level spell 1/day and add this spell to your spells known (any spell list including clerics, ranger, sorcerers)
Minor: Lowlight Vision/Secret Doors, Weapon Specialist (Proficent with Rapier, Longsword, Longbow if already procicent +1 Attack/Damage), Trance, +2 Listen/Spot

Morph Bark
2010-08-12, 06:45 PM
I believe Frank Trollman put it something like this:

See, that's the point where many might get an itch to scratch and look uncomfortable, since Frank and K tried to balance DnD around Tier 1 rather than Tier 3 that most people prefer. In Tier 1 a feat that gives a +2 to an ability score might perhaps be balanced according to some (just take note there already are Epic feats that give only a +1), but below Tier 1 people aren't playing rocket tag and it is considered overpowered.

Zeta Kai
2010-08-12, 07:40 PM
I disagree.

Fine, disagree all you want. It doesn't make you right.

A permanent +2 to any one ability score is unbalanced, pure & simple. And comparing it to Natural Spell, one of the most widely-cited examples of a feat that is Too Damn Good does not help your argument.

You're right that a +1 bonus to a few things isn't very special, especially considering that feats are a limited resource. But compare to the epic feats: Great Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatStrength), Great Dexterity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatDexterity), et al. They increase your score by 1 point. Not 2, ONE. Sure, it stacks, but they are epic. And that is the only time that WotC deigned to make such an option available in feat form.

Sure, you could argue that WotC wouldn't know Balance if it slapped the company in the face. But no third-party made a feat like this (to my knowledge), & homebrewers aren't clamoring to "fix" that "oversight" either. I think that implies that there is something of an unspoken consensus that this is just too powerful. Maybe in a high-powered game where everyone is Tier 2 or below, & cheese is expected, but not in world where the Monk is an allowable option.

And you could say that those +1's don't add up to much. But the ability to boost ANY score gives you too many options, like Leadership or Natural Spell. D&D 3E is rife with opportunities for rules-abuse, & adding another one is just asking for trouble. And some options are just better than others, & almost all of those options are way better than other feats, like Zaydos pointed out. You are basically, in one feat, outdoing Dodge, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus, etc. Also, while it is only half as good as a skill-boosting feat, like Alertness, it also applies to every skill with the same ability score, so its diverse applications go farther than any of them. It's not that the +1 bonus is so great, it's that it is applicable in so many different places (attack, damage, AC, skills, spells, as well as qualifiers for PrCs & even other feats; basically every number in the game) that makes it broken.

Also, the level prerequisite is not only arbitrary, but it negates the Conan Defense, which supposes that a character got that feat because they've been working on their Strength/Constitution/Whatever all their lives, like the ol' Barbarian did to get those muscles. So there's not even a decent justification fluff-wise. All this feat does is greatly benefit characters that have feats to spare, which might be a much-needed boon for fighters, but is excessive for wizards, humans, & human wizards.

So, yeah. It's broken. No argument. Use it if you want, but I've explained extensively why I never would.


Finally, the fact that you didn't even bother the read the races, and went right ahead to the part that you thought was broken is a little insulting. But whatever.


As for going straight for the broken part... you'd think he'd at least say "your races are OK" or something. Had he read them and deigned not to comment, I'd be fine. The fact that he didn't even look at them is what annoys me.

I'm gonna let you in on a secret, one that you obviously don't know: I can say whatever I want, within the confines of the forum rules. I'm not bound to comment on your material at all, & certainly not about every little creation of yours. I can pick & choose what I say & how I say it, & even choose to say nothing at all. And you taking my lack of commentary as an insult or some sort of personal affront is your problem, not mine. I'm here to comment, offer criticism, give advice, & generally mine the world a little better each day. If you misinterpret my silence in such a manner, then all those other people not commenting on your work are insulting you all the more.

And, frankly, I just didn't like your races, nor do I think that they were worthy of comment. They're just bare minimal crunch, without anything to make them interesting. A race needs some fluff to make them interesting, even if it's just a few short sentences. Those aren't races, they are stereo instructions. If I were playing chess, I'd wanna know how each piece moves, so minimalist mechanics would be desirable. But a race is something different; this isn't chess, this is a ROLEplaying game, which characters & stories & fluff worth writing.

Tolkien didn't describe Elves as +2/-2 balanced-bonus mathematical constructs; they were a people, a living, breathing, singing, talking people. If you wanna see how a race should be presented (IMO), check out the Oaves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2216051#post2216051) in my signature. You might like 'em, you might hate 'em, but they are detailed in just about every aspect of their lives, & most of that has nothing to do with their naked stats. I just finished writing an article about Humans for my upcoming campaign setting project; the article was 17 pages long, & the stats took up only half of the first page. That's how you write up a race. Less work is fine, I suppose, but what you presented wasn't worth discussing.

Milskidasith
2010-08-12, 08:04 PM
Sidenote: Humans minor abilities (three skill points total, I.E. a point in int) are horrible, while the minor abilities for +2 to something and -2 to something is nutty.

Just looking at it, here's my mixed breed character.

Humsperhoborn

1 bonus feat

+4 con, +2 to any stat, -2 str, -2 cha, -2 any stat. Basically an amazing race for any character besides a charisma focused one or a melee combatant, and with the floating +2 to negate the disadvantage either way, only charisma and str focused characters wouldn't find this attractive.

Aran Banks
2010-08-12, 08:14 PM
@cooperflood: I don't know about you, but the people I play with don't use rings of darkhidden. I don't even know what it is--showing it's lack of application. Of course, I might be living in a cave. Is it from the MiC?

Your point about the saves is valid. However, it's a given dwarf ability. Should I pitch it and get something else?

I also dislike not getting a sphere for basic access. What I want is a scaling set of SLAs for the gnome, and spheres do that fantastically. The major ability of a character should be obvious throughout the whole game, IMO.

Alright, errata'd.

I forgot to mention that you can only take the (+2 stat, -2 stat) minor ability once. Just like you can only get +1 to saves once.

And it's 1 skill point/level.

EDIT:

Zeta-Kai time:

Alright, I'm going to mostly ignore your fluff argument and your "I can bully you as much as I want within the forum rules" argument since it's absolutely irrelevant. If you want fluff, go ahead and make some fluff. The reason I don't waste my time with it is because everybody's got a different campaign setting and fluff takes about 5 minutes to write.

So let's do this in order:
Oh, the Epic feat argument. Haven't heard this before. Did you know there's an [Epic] feat that doubles the range of your darkvision? Can you IMAGINE how overpowered that is? And, like I said, I don't want to hear the "WotC didn't mean for this to happen." They also didn't mean for Elemental Plane of Flesh to happen, but nobody's ragging on you for that.

Next paragraph is about how it's really strong and awful and stuff. I skimmed it, saw no information, and ignored it.

You say that those +1s are important and talk about how it helps really strong feats that don't need help... then you say it beats a bunch of other feats and cite a bunch of weak ones (Dodge especially... I mean, seriously. And the skill-boosting feats? Do you know how completely useless those are? There's a reason I'm giving them out as minor abilities, y'know..). Then you say it's broken because it goes everywhere. Well, I already addressed the places that are important, and said why I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Then you say it denies flavor.

And follow that up with a statement that says it's broken. "No argument." Your extensive explanations have proved nothing to me, aside from the fact that you think I'm an idiot.

EDITEDIT: And I missed M-Bark! Sorry, guy:


See, that's the point where many might get an itch to scratch and look uncomfortable, since Frank and K tried to balance DnD around Tier 1 rather than Tier 3 that most people prefer.

That quote was what I pulled up. It has absolutely nothing to do with the goal for race creation... unless you believe that Tier 3 players find +1 bonuses for be very strong. Which I would disagree with.