breaking 3.5 with the PHB/DMG only

[alisbin]

So, the time will come (possibly very shortly) that me and 2 friends
need to roll up new characters. Our DM has been some discomfort with
non-core rule books, which to him means the PHB (maybe the DMG
prestige classes if we’re lucky) so we’ve decided to show him that our
current characters are significantly less badass then potentially
could be. He hasn’t done a ton of 3.5 (Or 3.0 For that matter) so his
view of each of the classes is a little old school. So here is our
challenge to the playground: please help us build the following 3
characters

1: Bard (primary face and buffing, secondary healing)
2: Cleric OR Druid (we need a capable healer, but obviously if we’re
gonna break stuff thats secondary, caster/warrior/healer would be
ideal :) )
3: Wizard OR Sorc (mailwoman style with intimidate)

Now, here are the limitations/situation:

*32 Point buy
*All the builds need to start at 5th level and max out between 10-12.
*3.5 PHB/DMG only, we’re making a point here.
*No magic items, or expectation that we’ll get any (even via crafting,
XP is very dear and gold is extremely scarce), our current party of 6
(5th and 6th level) has 1 +1 magic weapon, 1 +1 set of magic armor, 1
stat boost item (+1 to intelligence), about 4 misc magic items (all
extremely weak) and 6 thousand gold between all of us.
*Must not rely any loose rules interpretations, cheese is utterly fine.
*As long as its not sour, RAI and RAW both have to be sound and hold
up to possibly very intense scrutiny.
*Three Fighters already in the party (1 TWF, 1 2H, 1 S/B), all of whom are... not cautious.

[Knaight]

I'm assuming the MM is allowed, so go with a druid. As for wizards, just stick to the classic "batman wizard" spells.

[TooManyBadgers]

Planar Binding and its relatives make for all sorts of funtimes. For ideas on making it work, see here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker&post_num=12#338474306).
The Formian Taskmaster and Nightmare alone will tear most games in half at level 9.

Before then, Enchantments are easy to abuse, especially if your DM isn't familiar enough with the system to know the counters to mind control. Fly and Levitate can negate a great number of encounters (without allowing a save, which can easily be fudged for the sake of creating challenging encounters). At level 9, Polymorph, Minor Creation, Magic Jar, Lesser Planar Binding, Scry and Contact Other Plane pretty much let you do anything you want.



Druids are more overtly broken in Core at those levels than Clerics. Take Natural Spell, Augment Summoning and pretty much anything else and you'll have some ridiculous tanking power and versatility.



For the Bard, I guess just pump the hell out of your social skills and Fascinate DC's. Spam Suggestion. The goal should be to prevent combat from starting in the first place.

[Keld Denar]

*Polymorph Polymorph Polymorph*

Summons the spirit of game breaking power into the world.

Wizard and Drood are easy, as most of their game breaking toys come straight out of the PHB. Cleric and Bard, however, get a lot of love from various sourcebooks, bringing their mid-level breakability down pretty low.

Still, Polymorphing into a Hydra should be about all you need to break a core only game.

[The Glyphstone]

As mentioned, if you want to demonstrate that Core is broken, going about it from the same "old-school' attitude that your DM has is counter-productive. Wizards and Sorcerers get their OP-ness from battlefield control, Polymorph effects, and save-or-suck spells. Clerics get their OP-ness from self-buffing and being better fighters than the Fighter. Druids get their OP-ness from being Druids, and thus entire walking parties.

[true_shinken]

Just optimize Diplomacy. That should be enough.

...that said, breaking your own game out of spite is not cool.

[Flickerdart]

Check the Awaken loop in my signature. Then, level drain away the HD and use Restoration to get that XP back and replace it with proper levels.

[Eldariel]

There's the utterly broken spells:
- Planar Binding-line (inc. Gate)
- Polymorph-line (inc. Shapechange)
- Simulacrum

Then there's the utterly broken items:
- Candle of Invocation
- Dust of Sneezing and Choking

And an utterly broken feat:
- Leadership

Finally, an utterly broken skill:
- Diplomacy


That's probably beyond too-good and breaks things. Shapechange has Infinite Con-loop with Shambling Mound and Lightning damage, it offers a huge number of spells as Su-abilities and so on. Gate offers all spells under the "instant service"-clause as SLAs, and Planar Bindings with working on the Cha-check get you free service of any outsider within the HD range (Nightmare > Glabrezu > Pit Fiend are all available on Lesser > Normal > Greater) for days/level.

Then there's Awaken-loop and two-casting Polymorph Any Object (bought if necessary) to start with obnoxiously high physical stats and int; playing an Outsider-race gets you access to Planetar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) and Horned Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon), among others. And as per the PAO guidelines, it apparently ignores the HD clause of earlier Polymorphs (the fact that the subject has to have HD equal to the target creature); one of the examples is Lizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizard.htm) to Manticore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/manticore.htm). In other words, feel free to buy those as soon as your WBL affords two castings (or one if you happen to have high enough score).


But that crap is all broken and I suggest against using it. Just play good, solid characters (that is, casters using the good spells with Druid/Cleric warriors along with bound crap and such) and point out that nothing out-of-core is really better than what you already have.

[Doug Lampert]

*No magic items, or expectation that we’ll get any (even via crafting,
XP is very dear and gold is extremely scarce),

Huh?!? If you think the crafting XP costs are a disadvantage to crafting you haven't been paying attention to where the cheeze is. And gold being scarce is WHY YOU CRAFT!

Let's say you make 25,000 GP worth of stuff, a significant upgrade in power. Then you've spent a whole 1,000 XP, to get an extra 12,500 in items.

Let's suppose that "massive" XP cost actually drops you behind a level when the rest of your party hits level 10. Uh No! You're down a level!

You now get roughly 35% more XP then the rest of your party. At that level the rest of them should earn about 3,000 XP per session, so you collect over 4,000 XP and end up AHEAD OF THE PARTY because you were behind for one whole session.

So then you spend the extra XP on more items so they can catch up.

Seriously. Crafting it one of the best deals in core. Make stuff for the fighters at 75% of nominal, they'll be greatful, you'll be insanely rich and FAR more powerful than the piddling little XP cost (if any) could ever make you.

DougL

[Keld Denar]

XP Is A River theology only works if the DM actually understands and uses the XP rules as written. The current DM I have in RL doesn't. He just goes based on average party level. Thus, if you miss XP, its gone forever. I've DMed games before that don't use XP, I just assign level-ups when I feel its approprate. Crafting XP is harvested from items, and is only good for crafting new items.

So yea, in theory, it works. In reality, it often doesn't. I'll let you point at the DM and tell him he's "doing it wrong" and see how far that gets you.

[Peregrine]

It has been pointed out, though not in so many words, that there are two levels you might be aiming for here: Phenomenal cosmic power Stinky cheese
Playing a diplomancer bard, a batman wizard, and a-- well, a druid, will get you the first of these. This is the level where you outshine the rest of the party, clinching entire encounters on your own. (Although in the batman wizard's case, you do so by making the encounter rather easy and letting the fighters mop up.)

Polymorph, planar binding, candles of invocation, all these core things can easily get you to the second level. I recommend not going for this... yet.

You're trying to prove a point; fair enough. Level 1 will leave you with characters who can still make a fun game for everyone; they're just able to outshine them if they feel like it. At level 2, you may as well end the game; if feelings get hurt, it can get worse. Save level 2 for if and when the DM really lays down a challenge.

You: *pull out the diplomancer, the batman, and the druid*
DM: That's nice, but it's not really all-powerful badassness, now is it?
You: *pull out the stinky cheese*
DM: ...oh.
You: Ha ha, that was fun, now let's forget that and get back to playing properly, yeah?

[Tyndmyr]

Wish loops? See also chain gating. Mention of infinite wishes/solars should make any DM cry.

Make a wizard who through buff spells, mirror image, etc, never actually casts an offensive spell, and can punch the party fighter to death. Polymorph is fun here.

Even with DMs who don't understand xp rules(played under them myself), the xp cost for moderate crafting is still fairly trivial. At a minimum, scrolls cost so little xp as to be basically free. Mundane crafting is still free gold. Crafting is best chosen in low magic environments, as the relative value of the product is greater. Chuckle at the fighter's +1 sword, as you are entirely bedecked in inexpensive but powerful magic items.

Diplomancy. For fun, use ridiculously blatant lies. Make sure to be honest and point out to your DM that a blatant lie invokes a -20 penalty. Of course, this won't matter. "You are a potato" is a favorite bluff.

[Telonius]

Okay, old-school DM... I'd start out with assuming that he'll use the standard "screw with the spellcasters" method of throwing lots of encounters at them. At lower levels, this is actually a fairly dangerous thing. You don't have access to a lot of Divination shenanigans, and planar travel/Rope Trick is probably out as well. When you're building the characters, make sure that you leave yourself some room for effectiveness when the juice runs out. Invest a bit in mundane and alchemical items.

[Tyndmyr]

I actually like that response. It leads to a fun challenge. It's much better than saying "no" all the time.

That problem is solvable in the following means.

1. Scrolls. Low level scrolls have a ridiculously low xp cost.

2. Wands. A wand of grease or the like is fairly inexpensive, and usable for a long time. Much better over the long term.

3. Heavy Crossbow. 1d10 dmg is perfectly fine in low level fights. Sure, the reload time sucks, but it's still one round of offense every fight that doesn't drain your spell slots.

4. More spells per day. Specialize, be a sorc, or pimp your casting stat.

5. Carry a melee weapon. Thus, you threaten, and can make AoOs. Spiked gauntlets, for example. If elvish, you can either replace this with a longsword, or replace your crossbow with a longbow.

6. Pearls of Power. Higher levels of these cost a ton, but low level? Not so much. Yay, extra casting every single day afterward until the end of time.

7. Any "at-will" ability. Hand of the mage, etc. Even if it isn't DPS, it gives you more options, and keeps your spell slots open for other stuff.

8. Hirelings. Available extremely inexpensively from your local DMG. They can fulfill useful tasks like lugging gear, checking for traps, opening doors, taking up the spaces around you to prevent attack, threatening with melee weapons, reloading your crossbows, and so forth.

[Kurald Galain]

So yea, in theory, it works. In reality, it often doesn't. I'll let you point at the DM and tell him he's "doing it wrong" and see how far that gets you.

I would argue that a DM who is forbidding "XP Is A River" is doing it right, actually. It may be technically RAW, but it really strikes me as a loophole.

[Doug Lampert]

XP Is A River theology only works if the DM actually understands and uses the XP rules as written. The current DM I have in RL doesn't. He just goes based on average party level. Thus, if you miss XP, its gone forever. I've DMed games before that don't use XP, I just assign level-ups when I feel its approprate. Crafting XP is harvested from items, and is only good for crafting new items.

So yea, in theory, it works. In reality, it often doesn't. I'll let you point at the DM and tell him he's "doing it wrong" and see how far that gets you.

Who cares? In that case when you're up several levels in effective power due to extra gear you're down one whole caster level about 1/3rd of the time do to XP you don't get back.


Even with DMs who don't understand xp rules(played under them myself), the xp cost for moderate crafting is still fairly trivial. At a minimum, scrolls cost so little xp as to be basically free. Mundane crafting is still free gold. Crafting is best chosen in low magic environments, as the relative value of the product is greater. Chuckle at the fighter's +1 sword, as you are entirely bedecked in inexpensive but powerful magic items.

Bingo! Crafting was STILL a great deal in early 3.0 when average party level was the rule.


I would argue that a DM who is forbidding "XP Is A River" is doing it right, actually. It may be technically RAW, but it really strikes me as a loophole.

It's not just technically the RAW. It's utterly clear that it's also RAI. The rule WAS average party level, and they changed it to MAKE XP into a river.

That was the only purpose of the change. And they added it in an expansion and then made it the official rule in 3.5 BECAUSE they wanted the rule to be that casters catch up.

Because plainly a caster with double the expected wealth by level (of gear customized to be of maximum use) and surrounded by 3 non-casters with slightly more than expected wealth by level is FAR too weak if he's a whole level behind expected level once every 3 sessions or so!

But it's not a loophole. XP is a river is the INTENT of the rule. It's working as intended when it works that way. A non-deceptive, clearly writen rule working the way its supposed to and as was intended to by the writers isn't a loophole by any reasonable interperetation.