PDA

View Full Version : Question of etics and being realistic



Balor01
2010-08-12, 03:42 AM
Say there is a temple of Pelor in this city, inhabited by a few clerics of Pelor and a few paladins. One day, a wizard drops by, saying he is the representative of merchants guild, dealing in black onyx (major component for raising the undead) and slave trade and his guild wants to sell this stuff in the city. Paladins oppose such ideas of course, but batman teaches them a lesson, leaving a charred pit, where temple was and a bunch of corpses. Then the merchants drop in.
Now, mechanics-wise paladins are lvl 6-12, while batman is lvl 20. No sane person would oppose him, but there is still a question of being a paladin of LG allignment.

So, what should a paladin do in this case in your opoinion? (except trying to smite the batman and getting burnt to cinders :smallbiggrin: )

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 03:55 AM
Find a bigger batman.

Possibly this may require doing large favours- fighting something that is highly resistant to magic, but less resistant to melee, for him, so he's willing to help the paladins.

cheezewizz2000
2010-08-12, 04:03 AM
Part of being a paladin is knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. If he knows of some method to stop the Wizard that doesn't involve a toe-to-toe straight-up fight that he cannot win, then he should dedicate his life to building a party of like-minded individuals of dissparate, but complimentary, talents to hunt down said MacGuffin. If he doesn't know of such a thing, but does know of someone who might, see above. He he doesn't know of such a thing and doesn't know of someone who does, then he should see my first suggestion, but look for a guy in the know.

If. IF he knows for sure that he is the ONLY thing standing between the Wizard and the safety of the world, then and ONLY then, should he stand resolute and defend the safety of the people with his last breath. If there is a glimmer of hope that he can do it without dying horribly then he should persue those methods. If the bastions of good did nothing but face insurmountable odds with no hope of success, there would be no bastions of good left.

Rokurai
2010-08-12, 04:09 AM
Get an epic campaign quest chain to find the Annulus artifact that creates a huge anti-magic field(for psionics as well) then at the end of the artifact retrieval, use it, and skewer the batman with your sword while he tries to escape. The problem here is that since the batman is, at the moment, powerless, you would have to show him mercy...

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 04:12 AM
If you've managed to arrange for him to be tried, and sentenced, by a legitimate authority, in his absence, and been designated as executioner- it is possible to kill him without it being an evil act- since execution is not in itself evil.

Killing a helpless enemy without it being a legitimate execution, is iffy though.

Origomar
2010-08-12, 04:25 AM
Get an epic campaign quest chain to find the Annulus artifact that creates a huge anti-magic field(for psionics as well) then at the end of the artifact retrieval, use it, and skewer the batman with your sword while he tries to escape. The problem here is that since the batman is, at the moment, powerless, you would have to show him mercy...

see thats why you need a party rogue.

Balor01
2010-08-12, 04:29 AM
@Rokurai
Contingency: when in AMF, teleport to my mansion. Then return in invisible dragon form (polymorph) and bombard targets with small houses.

Another batman may actually be the solution.

Kaww
2010-08-12, 04:35 AM
LG is not lawful stupid. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single LG char with more than 2HD.

Psyx
2010-08-12, 04:53 AM
That's not 'trading' that's blackmail - trade with us or we destroy you.
The temple needs to buy a little time and marshal some frightening resources. 'Message' spells to the high temple (you can bet that they have a few epic clerics kicking around) and all those political contacts that they've made over the years.

So what does the local government have to say about this? [L stands for 'lawful'].

A town/nation that has a church of a good god in their kingdom is basically being held for ransom. A mage is threatening to level parts of the city. Can you say 'collateral damage?' - People are going to get hurt. It starts with the church (who are known to be good and to be a bastion of opposition against evil), but where does it stop? The palace itself? The population aren't going to like it either, because they KNOW that those paladins help protect them, and those priests possibly married them or cured their cousin of the plague last year.

Edicts against the criminal are likely to be raised. For certain if the paladins petition the ruler (which they will, because resorting to the law should be at the top of their 'to do' list), and if the ruler isn't a cabbage. And then what does batman do?

Basically, batman is making an enemy of an entire country here. Batman clearly isn't very clever. Batman's 'evil plan' is stupid-evil, unless he is actually willing to go to war over this.

And he's already tipped his hand: He's got onyx and slaves, and an organisation behind him. Dismantle that organisation. Remove the slave supply.

It doesn't have to be fair play, either. The paladins might do a lot of political work in rousing the population and petitioning nobility to raise resistance, but you can bet that the local thieves guild don't like people strong-arming in on their business, and lording it up. They'll happily supply information via indirect means to the nobility and paladins, and probably won't be adverse to murdering a few of the mage's lackies, either.
This 'merchant's guild' - is it the legitimate merchant's guild of the town? If not, then the real merchants are going to support the paladins, and have a lot of cash to spend on the issue. If it ism then it can kiss goodbye to it's official status. The ruler would be only too happy to tear it down and put something else in place, and you can bet a lot of other people are going to support that. I foresee warehouses getting burned down in the night.

This is clearly a case of a mage who somehow got to level 20 by only solving the problem right in front of him with ire and brimstone, rather than by considering the wider picture. Welcome to the big world! Welcome to waking up in your tower to find a ring of trebuchets and 20th level clerics from the high-temple of Pelor setting siege(with an epic dimension lock on your tower, of course). welcome to bringing the wrath of an entire kingdom and church down on you. Here's your 4d6.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 05:54 AM
So, what should a paladin do in this case in your opoinion? (except trying to smite the batman and getting burnt to cinders :smallbiggrin: )

If you mean other paladins aligned with the destroyed temple, then yeah, everyone's got it right: begin a quest to take out the wizard by whatever means will work (including finding another Batman). And may I reiterate my belief that a paladin is perfectly justified in killing an enemy of this sort, even if he is temporarily made helpless by anti-magic, or hold person, or whatever?

If you mean the paladins in the temple, they probably did the right thing, opposing him and getting fried. Any who weren't killed before realising the danger would probably attempt to organise an orderly retreat, of all temple personnel and any citizens who wished to follow. And then if when the wizard goes to stop them, then they die fighting a rearguard action.


Contingency: when in AMF, teleport to my mansion.

I'm not sure you quite understand how anti-magic works...

Boci
2010-08-12, 05:58 AM
I'm not sure you quite understand how anti-magic works...

I'm not sure you understand how a shrunken lead hat works.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 06:02 AM
I'm not sure you understand how a shrunken lead hat works.

I--

Wait. What?

huttj509
2010-08-12, 06:11 AM
I--

Wait. What?

Something along the lines of having a large lead cone barrier to shield you from AMF, cast shrink item, and wear it as a hat. When an AMF hits you, it grows, providing you with a tepee that blocks line of sight/effect/etc. and you teleport out.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-08-12, 06:32 AM
If I was running this game, I'd have the paladins and Pelorians go questing for some greater power - either from outside (some nice, high level wizard to help them out) or from within (the greatest CoDzilla Pelorian who ever lived).


Something along the lines of having a large lead cone barrier to shield you from AMF, cast shrink item, and wear it as a hat. When an AMF hits you, it grows, providing you with a tepee that blocks line of sight/effect/etc. and you teleport out.

*steals*

Though you have to worry about the effects of a ton of lead being briefly supported by your neck...

Bibliomancer
2010-08-12, 06:38 AM
*steals*

Though you have to worry about the effects of a ton of lead being briefly supported by your neck...

Technically, you don't, since the switch occurs simultaneously (D&D assumes that an object is entirely in the field or not in it at all) and besides, you could just use a contingent levitate spell on the lead.

Balor01
2010-08-12, 06:45 AM
Tnx for al the answers, most of my questions were nicely answered. Just to explain some things: Wizard is a member of extremely powerfull merchant-city which also houses a mageguild, consisting of several dozen high-lvl wizards. Most are N, NE, LE.

As for local government of "Invaded" city, they just rolled over and vent with it, due to all burnt-to-ashes thing. As for what to do: I was thinking the first goal for opposition should be getting some mind blank and nondetection. Then, getting some powerfull clerics and .. well, gods on their side. It is very likely that a few dozens of wizards are ready to band up behind this guy who is "expanding their mercantile interests".

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 06:55 AM
Something along the lines of having a large lead cone barrier to shield you from AMF, cast shrink item, and wear it as a hat. When an AMF hits you, it grows, providing you with a tepee that blocks line of sight/effect/etc. and you teleport out.

Well. Okay then. That one's new to me.

It's also cheese and I'm trying to figure out how to prevent it -- not that I expect my players to try such a thing, but, as a good practice for a DM to be in...

Hmm. It's an emanation, so yeah, the lead cone/hat works. It doesn't need to be lead at all, in fact. Anything that provides you with total cover (i.e. any solid object whatsoever) will work.

Okay, one, I'd say the contingency never triggers. While you're in an antimagic field, it can't work. The moment you block the antimagic field, its triggering condition doesn't apply.

You could set it up so that it triggers the moment you get out of an antimagic field. That'd probably work. But it's more likely to go off unexpectedly.

And if I needed to deny it because of some cheese other than contingency, then: "The outside is in the antimagic field, but the inside is protected by it. The stress of the inside being under shrink item while the outside isn't cracks the object and exposes you to the field." Or better yet, talk it over (read: just say no) with my players beforehand.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-12, 06:59 AM
Depends on the kind of paladin.

If you're Miko, you charge the evil bad guy head-first, defeat one of his lackeys, then get thrown in a Forcecage and used for his Xanatos gambit.

If you're Thanh, you set up an elaborate resistance scheme to slowly overthrow the evildoes.

Needless to say the latter is quite a bit more effective.

Boci
2010-08-12, 07:01 AM
Well. Okay then. That one's new to me.

It's also cheese and I'm trying to figure out how to prevent it -- not that I expect my players to try such a thing, but, as a good practice for a DM to be in...

Hmm. It's an emanation, so yeah, the lead cone/hat works. It doesn't need to be lead at all, in fact. Anything that provides you with total cover (i.e. any solid object whatsoever) will work.

Okay, one, I'd say the contingency never triggers. While you're in an antimagic field, it can't work. The moment you block the antimagic field, its triggering condition doesn't apply.

You could set it up so that it triggers the moment you get out of an antimagic field. That'd probably work. But it's more likely to go off unexpectedly.

And if I needed to deny it because of some cheese other than contingency, then: "The outside is in the antimagic field, but the inside is protected by it. The stress of the inside being under shrink item while the outside isn't cracks the object and exposes you to the field." Or better yet, talk it over (read: just say no) with my players beforehand.

With the lead hat you do not need contingency. You just cast it on your turn. Its lead because that also has the added bonus of blocking detection spells, so you may as well kill two birds with one stone and carry an oblect that could be used as an improvised protection from certain divinations.
Also for high level wizards there is always invoke magic from LoM. My aparanoid wizard did not ban evocation just for that spell.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 07:06 AM
Nothing says lead blocks the field's emanation, though. Shrunk lead hats won't save you from them. Contingency should, though, since being an immediate effect lets it trigger just before the field breaks things down (talk about limit tending to zero here).

Boci
2010-08-12, 07:08 AM
Nothing says lead blocks the field's emanation, though.

It does if it provides total cover.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 07:10 AM
Then an oversized cloak can beat the antimagic field.

Stompy
2010-08-12, 07:11 AM
There are many questions here. The first two I have are: "Why is a level 20 batman doing the merchant's bidding?" and "Why does the temple of Pelor dictate trade in this city?"

but answering the OP question:


So, what should a paladin do in this case in your opoinion? (except trying to smite the batman and getting burnt to cinders :smallbiggrin: )
Honestly, unless he looks like someone supremely powerful, I would attempt to arrest him under Pelor Canon law #2543, no slavery allowed. I'm sorry if this means that the city and I die but I'm acting on the info I had.

If I knew he was Batman, I would surprise-charge-smite-sunder his spellbook. (knowing full well he probably has foresight up) If no spellbook exists, suprise-charge-smite-sunder his extradimensional space.

In both cases, should the worst happen (which it will 175% of the time when dealing with Batman), I no longer play a 6-12th level paladin. Oh darn. :smalltongue: We all know from these boards that a paladin can't go 1 week without breaking his code of conduct anyway.

Boci
2010-08-12, 07:13 AM
Then an oversized cloak can beat the antimagic field.

Doubt it. Cloaks aren't as solid as metal (albeit one of the softer ones), and when the hat exspands it ceases to be an item of clothing.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 07:17 AM
Doubt it. Cloaks aren't as solid as metal (albeit one of the softer ones), and when the hat exspands it ceases to be an item of clothing. Hardly a problem. Make one of well-prepared rubber and it'll be an insulant just as much as that layer of metal as long as there isn't excessive force applied to it. Kinda like a giant condom. I'm sure someone will find a way to Gate in a horde of angels from within the rubbercloak in case of antimagic fields.

Boci
2010-08-12, 07:21 AM
Hardly a problem. Make one of well-prepared rubber and it'll be an insulant just as much as that layer of metal as long as there isn't excessive force applied to it. Kinda like a giant condom. I'm sure someone will find a way to Gate in a horde of angels from within the rubbercloak in case of antimagic fields.

That could constitute total cover, but the shrunken lead head is probably more definate.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 07:23 AM
That could constitute total cover, but the shrunken lead head is probably more definate.

<shrug> when it comes to that, i give up. There's no point trying to outhink a wizard when people have years of experience worth to build theoretical counters to Everything that Exists and Your Girlfriend Too.

Stompy
2010-08-12, 07:24 AM
That could constitute total cover, but the shrunken lead head is probably more definate.

Definitely. Although I would laugh if you could sneak polymer engineering into a DM's campaign world.

...do these merchants sell these lead hats because I want one now.

Psyx
2010-08-12, 07:28 AM
It's also likely that a lot of wizards aren't going to like it. Not only for alignment reasons.

This is going to be public knowledge. And if you - a citizen- find out that wizards can lean on you, threaten you and murder you in broad daylight, what are you going to think of wizards?
You're going to be afraid. But people don't stay afraid and compliant for long.
You and your mates are probably going to lynch the first low-level wizard that you see. Less powerful wizards are not going to like being feared. They aren't going to like people refusing to serve them in the tavern because the tavern owner's daughter died of plague that couldn't be cured because a wizard killed all the healers.


I don't see that the government would in any way roll over. The mage and the guild have just shown that they are willing to harm the city (killing those defenders and all those handy healers), use violence in broad daylight, and utterly defy local authority.

Local authorities don't stay in power by letting it be seen that people can break laws and completely upset the political balance and get away with it. They are dependant on people respecting the law to stay in power. nobody is more interested in social stability than the people who run the system.
They might be acting like it's ok, but the reality of the situation would be that the nobility are desperately trying to figure out a way to deal with this guild before it turns its eyes to the wealth of the nobles.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 07:28 AM
Definitely. Although I would laugh if you could sneak polymer engineering into a DM's campaign world.

...do these merchants sell these lead hats because I want one now.

Rubber was known and used since more or less 1500 BC, and its raw material can be found in nature(yay latex).
Fabricate spells, int 20+ and "i'm a goddamn wizard who can freaking ask those slightly less powerful beings(gods) for advice".

Boci
2010-08-12, 07:31 AM
<shrug> when it comes to that, i give up. There's no point trying to outhink a wizard when people have years of experience worth to build theoretical counters to Everything that Exists and Your Girlfriend Too.

I think the lead hat was probably thought up to counter the people who annoyingly thought that mentioning an anti magic field somehow disproved that wizards are tier 1 classes. The way some people talked about them you'd think they were as a common as dirt. Besides, a DM who can only challange a powerful wizard by throwing anti magic field at them needs some fresh ideas.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 07:35 AM
I think the lead hat was probably thought up to counter the people who annoyingly thought that mentioning an anti magic field somehow disproved that wizards are tier 1 classes. The way some people talked about them you'd think they were as a common as dirt. Besides, a DM who can only challange a powerful wizard by throwing anti magic field at them needs some fresh ideas.

It's just more of the same. Someone thought of more ways to counter whatever the DMs can throw. It's the creativity of players + DMs against the creativity of DMs, over a long timespan. Anything short of "dude, shut the hell up and stop being a ****" won't stop a wizard that is allowed anything. I mean, go check the ideas out there. Some of them are so ridiculously convoluted you have to wonder why people even bother to consider "RAW" more important than "RAI" while playing.

Psyx
2010-08-12, 07:38 AM
Because some people live very petty lives, and often don't realise that it's more important for people to actually like you and to have fun than to 'win' at an unwinnable game?

Boci
2010-08-12, 07:39 AM
It's just more of the same. Someone thought of more ways to counter whatever the DMs can throw. It's the creativity of players + DMs against the creativity of DMs, over a long timespan. Anything short of "dude, shut the hell up and stop being a ****" won't stop a wizard that is allowed anything. I mean, go check the ideas out there. Some of them are so ridiculously convoluted you have to wonder why people even bother to consider "RAW" more important than "RAI" while playing.

But if a wizard is problematic, taking away all their power is bad. Quickened dispell magic, mage slayer are better ways to try and challange a wizard than just saying "no more spells". Or talk to the player, as you mentioned.
The fact that every situation can be countered by a wizard speaks a lot to the casters power, but they are not sponetousnous and thus will not always be able to cast just the right spell.
The shrunken lead hat however is nice trick that prevents a wizard from loosing all their class features.

panaikhan
2010-08-12, 07:58 AM
Against the Lead hat...

You make a magical item (a marble) that casts 'Anti-Magic Field' when it strikes a solid surface.

You throw the marble at the wizard's feet. The anti-magic spell eminates from the wizard's square, so is inside the hat.

Psyx
2010-08-12, 08:31 AM
If a PC is seriously walking around with a lead wizard hat on just in case they got hit with an AMF, then I'd hit them with an AMF.

Because I suspect that this idea doesn't actually work very well.

See: Lead isn't very strong. At all. And it's heavy. For the lead hat to actually stay in shape as a lead hat it's going to need to be fairly thick. So the hat is going to need to be heavy, which means that the wizard is going to be walking around with several kilos tied to his head with a strap.

And look dumb.
And get lots of headaches.
And eventually get lead poisoning, I suspect. Although you could paint it blue and puts some stars on it, I guess.

But that aside, when scaled up to normal size, our hat is going to have to support it's own weight. And lead is heavy. And soft. I suspect that when you drop several tons of lead cone from 6 feet up onto the floor it will probably deafen anyone inside. And I suspect that it'll collapse as soon as it his the deck from its own weight, dropping several tons of lead on the wizards head.

Or we could make it so that it'll definitely hold its own weight. So make it -say- 6 inches thick. So scaled down to hat-size again, we'd need it to go from being about 7 feet high to about 7 inches. 1:12 scale, making our hat half an inch thick....

Hmmm...[goes away to do maths]

Boci
2010-08-12, 08:36 AM
If a PC is seriously walking around with a lead wizard hat on just in case they got hit with an AMF, then I'd hit them with an AMF.

Because I suspect that this idea doesn't actually work very well.

See: Lead isn't very strong. At all. And it's heavy. For the lead hat to actually stay in shape as a lead hat it's going to need to be fairly thick. So the hat is going to need to be heavy, which means that the wizard is going to be walking around with several kilos tied to his head with a strap.

And look dumb.
And get lots of headaches.
And eventually get lead poisoning, I suspect. Although you could paint it blue and puts some stars on it, I guess.

But that aside, when scaled up to normal size, our hat is going to have to support it's own weight. And lead is heavy. And soft. I suspect that when you drop several tons of lead cone from 6 feet up onto the floor it will probably deafen anyone inside. And I suspect that it'll collapse as soon as it his the deck from its own weight, dropping several tons of lead on the wizards head.

Or we could make it so that it'll definitely hold its own weight. So make it -say- 6 inches thick. So scaled down to hat-size again, we'd need it to go from being about 7 feet high to about 7 inches. 1:12 scale, making our hat half an inch thick....

Hmmm...[goes away to do maths]

It doesn't need to support its weight, it rests on the ground. If a player writes down "shrunken lead hat" on his character sheet but doesn't tell the DM why until he actually enters an AMF, then fair enough, have rock falls. But if he asks if its okay and you do not shoot it down, your can't really suddenly say "Oh, actually, you die"

Psyx
2010-08-12, 08:56 AM
It does need to support its own weight, because it needs enough structural integrity not to collapse under its own weight. Buildings don't hold themselves up by magic. and there's a reason that we don't build church spires out of lead: It's rubbish for it.

The hat has to somehow go from being small to large. So what part of it is that centred on? It's not going to conveniently have its base coincide with the floor. Perhaps sharing the same centre of mass would be most 'right'. In that case, it's going to have to either drop several feet, or be so large that the centre of mass is already 6'6" above the floor.

Anyway... a bit of maths and the back of a <s>fa</s> sorry: cigarette packet later, and a half-inch thick lead hat sized for me and only 21ish cm tall weighs.... 16lb. Eat encumbrance penalty, mage!

Yes; I am bored at work today.

Cutting back to your point: If a player tried to pull this out of the hat without warning on me, I wouldn't feel bad about 'lead hat falls, you die' at all because the player would have been cheating to be wearing such an item without any penalty, and would have been cheating to suddenly have in his possession a large, custom built and expensive item that appears on no equipment list, without my knowledge. And would have been cheating to have done the required maths without at least a nod towards some Architecture and Engineering knowledge. I have no compunction against killing off cheating PCs, nor ones who deliberately hide information from me so they can 'one up' me in patiently ridiculous manners.

And a player asking if it was ok to have such a hat would be told 'no' in no uncertain terms, for all the reasons stated above.

Boci
2010-08-12, 08:59 AM
And a player asking if it was ok to have such a hat would be told 'no' in no uncertain terms, for all the reasons stated above.

You could just use another material if lead is not going to work.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 09:00 AM
Okay, first let me address the whole lead hat thing in an on-topic manner. Let's assume the NPC Batman wizard does this in case the Pelorians and allies (who, for the sake of argument, we might as well assume are the PCs) use AMF against him. It'll only work once (at most); the wizard will run away, and next time they'll be ready to take out the hat before dropping the AMF on him. And/or they're waiting at his stronghold for when he teleports. Or, first time around, they open with the AMF, and if they get lucky by winning initiative (both sides, or neither, having access to moment of prescience and/or foresight), they sunder it before the wizard gets away.

Next?


See: Lead isn't very strong. At all. And it's heavy. For the lead hat to actually stay in shape as a lead hat it's going to need to be fairly thick. So the hat is going to need to be heavy, which means that the wizard is going to be walking around with several kilos tied to his head with a strap.

Alas, shrink item can give the object a "clothlike" composition while shrunk. So that's actually workable.

Once it returns to its regular size, though...


It doesn't need to support its weight, it rests on the ground.

It still needs to support its weight, or collapse. A house rests on the ground, but if its roof isn't properly supported, it's coming down.

You know what? Maybe I wouldn't disallow it. So, you've given yourself total cover from the AMF. That's nice. Now what? Teleport away? Yeah, the party's gonna love that. (And for NPC Batman, determined opposition will have your stronghold staked out.) Call a bunch of allies? Your ability to cast broken spell B (gate) doesn't mean that tactic A (total cover hat) is itself broken.

PS On the subject of total cover, anything you wear doesn't give it. Even a tower shield, which can give total cover, doesn't give it against spells. Well, explicitly not against touch spells, and me, I'd rule it doesn't count against emanations accordingly.

Boci
2010-08-12, 09:04 AM
It still needs to support its weight, or collapse. A house rests on the ground, but if its roof isn't properly supported, it's coming down.

But a house is rarely cone shaped. I meant "Being a cone should make supporting itself easier. However I may be wrong, I'm not an expert.


You know what? Maybe I wouldn't disallow it. So, you've given yourself total cover from the AMF. That's nice. Now what?

Ideally I guess swift invisibility then DD.

Kish
2010-08-12, 09:21 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicfield.htm

I don't see anything about "doesn't affect someone who has Total Cover standing in the middle of the field." It's an emanation, not a burst. (Setting aside the fact that the description of Total Cover blocking bursts states that a burst "doesn't go around corners," which somehow sounds like it means something vaguely different from "doesn't go right through a cloak.")

So, fine. This wizard has a silly lead hat and a contingency which is set to teleport him away when he's hit by an antimagic field. Assuming the lead Cone of Silence doesn't kill the wizard itself (...which it probably does...), the paladin's only dilemma is how to get through the cone and hack the wizard's head off before the antimagic field wears off.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 09:23 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicfield.htm

I don't see anything about "doesn't affect someone who has Total Cover standing in the middle of the field." It's an emanation, not a burst.

Which is good, 'cause that would be really silly.

I thought it was silly too, but it's true.


A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). ... An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions#area

Kish
2010-08-12, 09:28 AM
Ah, okay then. However. It still says what that means is that a burst spell won't go around corners. Where's the corner to go around here? Any reading of the rules that leads to "My entire body is covered by my ninja outfit, therefore I have total cover against everything!" belongs in the Silly RAW thread, and certainly doesn't belong anywhere else.

(Suggestion for the OP: If you want a discussion of how a paladin should act if forced to choose between attacking an evil powerful enough to kill him/her easily or permitting said evil to continue doing evil things in front of him/her, you might want to rephrase your initial post to avoid such calls to powergaming debates as "batman." :smalltongue:)

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 09:30 AM
Ah, okay then. However. It still says what that means is that a burst spell won't go around corners. Where's the corner to go around here?
"Around corners" is just an example. If anything provides cover, it protects against burst/emanation. It's visually identical to how shadows are cast.

Kish
2010-08-12, 09:35 AM
"Around corners" is just an example.


A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners).

Do you recognize the difference between "for example" and "in other words"?

If anything provides cover, it protects against burst/emanation. It's visually identical to how shadows are cast.
Okay, you want invulnerable people in ninja outfits, you go ahead and argue that.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 09:35 AM
Okay, you want invulnerable people in ninja outfits, you go ahead and argue that.

Hush, I am in the team that considers that incredibly silly, in case you didn't read it.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 09:36 AM
Ah, okay then. However. It still says what that means is that a burst spell won't go around corners. Where's the corner to go around here? Any reading of the rules that leads to "My entire body is covered by my ninja outfit, therefore I have total cover against everything!" belongs in the Silly RAW thread, and certainly doesn't belong anywhere else.

Stuff you wear doesn't provide cover. A great big lead tent does. (A great big lead screen does too, just like a tower shield, and it more clearly has "corners" to go around, but there's no guarantee it will expand facing the right way. :smalltongue:)


(Suggestion for the OP: If you want a discussion of how a paladin should act if forced to choose between attacking an evil powerful enough to kill him/her easily or permitting said evil to continue doing evil things in front of him/her, you might want to rephrase your initial post to avoid such calls to powergaming debates as "batman." :smalltongue:)

Yeah, I've been trying to keep my posts at least vaguely related to the topic. :smallwink: I think powergamey stuff does have a place though; "How can a paladin overcome an evil wizard who plays by Batman logic?"

Kish
2010-08-12, 09:41 AM
Stuff you wear doesn't provide cover. A great big lead tent does.

Sure. Now I await, with bated breath, explanations of how the wizard's going to survive his hat turning into a tent made of lead. :smalltongue:

(And if he actually somehow--how many ranks in Knowledge: Engineering does he have?--rigged something that would turn his hat into a functional lead tent which encloses him rather than crushing him, he's like the half-ogre here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html): he put a tremendous amount of effort and resources into one particular cheesy trick.)

Psyx
2010-08-12, 09:41 AM
Out of sheer boredom, the lead cone would weigh a little under 12 tons when 'expanded', with a material value at today's prices of $26,000.
If that hadn't been ok'ed by me as a GM, I'd rip their character sheet in two under their nose. It's called 'cheating'.

I suspect that even if it didn't collapse, if the mage was standing in a swamp or on a wooden floor, he'd still wind up dead.



A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin

So if you focused it on the mage himself or the ground at his feet, the hat would do no good anyway, trapping the mage inside a 12 ton hat, in a magic field, while everyone else is outside of it. I would have -lead hat or not- centred the effect on the floor where the mage was, so we now have a dead mage. Again: If someone wants to play a smart-alec mage with an answer for everything, then I'm going to cheerfully hoist them with their own petard.



Alas, shrink item can give the object a "clothlike" composition while shrunk.

Ok: A cloth-like hat that still weighs 16lb. Comfy...




You could just use another material if lead is not going to work.

No backsies!

If the player has been such an RAW-rules lawyer as to go to this kind of extent to avoid an AMF and didn't sit down with a calculator first (and some ranks in architecture and engineering again.. or they are cheating), then they've got the words 'lead hat' on their character sheet.

Now: RAW that's a lead hat. Live by RAW, die by RAW... and a big lead hat crushing you to a pulp.

Boci
2010-08-12, 09:45 AM
Ok: A cloth-like hat that still weighs 16lb. Comfy...

If it stops me from loosing all my class features in an AMF...


No backsies!

If the player has been such an RAW-rules lawyer as to go to this kind of extent to avoid an AMF and didn't sit down with a calculator first (and some ranks in architecture and engineering again.. or they are cheating), then they've got the words 'lead hat' on their character sheet.

Now: RAW that's a lead hat. Live by RAW, die by RAW... and a big lead hat crushing you to a pulp.

Sorry, that argument holds absolutly no water, given that I have not written lead hat on my character sheet, and you not my DM. Are you really telling me that if a PC raised the option of a lead hat you would then not allow them to change their minds and get a cloth hat instead?

senrath
2010-08-12, 09:48 AM
So if you focused it on the mage himself or the ground at his feet, the hat would do no good anyway, trapping the mage inside a 12 ton hat, in a magic field, while everyone else is outside of it.


Well, if you have a custom magic item that works like that, then sure. Otherwise, barring some feats I'm not aware of, an AMF is centered around the caster.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 09:50 AM
Out of sheer boredom, the lead cone would weigh a little under 12 tons when 'expanded', with a material value at today's prices of $26,000.
If that hadn't been ok'ed by me as a GM, I'd rip their character sheet in two under their nose. It's called 'cheating'.

I suspect that even if it didn't collapse, if the mage was standing in a swamp or on a wooden floor, he'd still wind up dead.

Psyx, you're my hero. :smallbiggrin:


So if you focused it on the mage himself or the ground at his feet, the hat would do no good anyway, trapping the mage inside a 12 ton hat, in a magic field, while everyone else is outside of it. I would have -lead hat or not- centred the effect on the floor where the mage was, so we now have a dead mage. Again: If someone wants to play a smart-alec mage with an answer for everything, then I'm going to cheerfully hoist them with their own petard.

Unfortunately the spell antimagic field is a "10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you". Aside from custom magic items (which if we're the DM smacking down a lead-hat PC, is fine, but let's stick with the assumption that Batman is an NPC whom the PCs are out to beat), can anyone suggest a way to shove the AMF right under the wizard's feet? (...trick him into casting AMF himself?)


Ok: A cloth-like hat that still weighs 16lb. Comfy...

That... is a very good point. You can make it cloth-like. It still weighs the same (1/4000th of the original weight). Awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Stompy
2010-08-12, 09:50 AM
Out of sheer boredom, the lead cone would weigh a little under 12 tons when 'expanded', with a material value at today's prices of $26,000.
If that hadn't been ok'ed by me as a GM, I'd rip their character sheet in two under their nose. It's called 'cheating'.

1 pound of gold = 50 gp = ~$16000 (in second day of April, give or take)


No backsies!

If the player has been such an RAW-rules lawyer as to go to this kind of extent to avoid an AMF and didn't sit down with a calculator first (and some ranks in architecture and engineering again.. or they are cheating), then they've got the words 'lead hat' on their character sheet.

Now: RAW that's a lead hat. Live by RAW, die by RAW... and a big lead hat crushing you to a pulp.

And remake the character with more RAW. :smalleek:

EDIT: You're going to make me engineer this out in real life. :smallsmile:

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 09:50 AM
Well, if you have a custom magic item that works like that, then sure. Otherwise, barring some feats I'm not aware of, an AMF is centered around the caster.

Now I have to make an arcane archer.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 09:57 AM
Now I have to make an arcane archer.

That answers that question.

In fact this scenario is sounding more awesome by the minute.

"Wronged by a man too powerful to touch, a paladin of Pelor sets out to assemble a team that can take him down. Her allies: a mystical elven archer who can put an antimagic arrow between your eyes at five hundred paces. An asthmatic, geriatric cleric of Boccob who also happens to have 9th-level spells. And a barbarian named Gob who likes to hit things."

Boci
2010-08-12, 10:01 AM
Now I have to make an arcane archer.

Arrows are destroyed if they hit, so I'm not sure that tricks works.



No backsies!

If the player has been such an RAW-rules lawyer as to go to this kind of extent to avoid an AMF and didn't sit down with a calculator first (and some ranks in architecture and engineering again.. or they are cheating), then they've got the words 'lead hat' on their character sheet.

Now: RAW that's a lead hat. Live by RAW, die by RAW... and a big lead hat crushing you to a pulp.

Why are you assuming the player will be a jerk about it?

HamHam
2010-08-12, 10:03 AM
As to the "clothes provide cover!" stuff, the amount of material needed to count as cover is, IIRC, defined expressly somewhere.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 10:03 AM
Arrows are destroyed if they hit, so I'm not sure that tricks works.



Why are you assuming the player will be a jerk about it?

"The spell is centered where the arrow lands". The arrow isn't expected to remain intact at all.

Boci
2010-08-12, 10:07 AM
"The spell is centered where the arrow lands". The arrow isn't expected to remain intact at all.

Okay, now all you need is the ability to cast AMF as an arcane archers. But as this thread is showing, the shrunken hat is a good trick but its not one of those "You can't touch me" tricks.

Kish
2010-08-12, 10:07 AM
Why are you assuming the player will be a jerk about it?
...Because attempting to torture "my lead hat makes me immune to antimagic fields" out of RAW is being a jerk.

HamHam
2010-08-12, 10:10 AM
...Because attempting to torture "my lead hat makes me immune to antimagic fields" out of RAW is being a jerk.

I don't see how. It's a pretty basic trick that doesn't even require abusing RAW technicalities or anything.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-12, 10:29 AM
Just a note on the hat being self-supporting;

If I recall correctly, step 1 is to create the lead tent full-sized, so by default you should assume that it is self supporting if it's made it to hat size. If we're talking about a wizard paranoid enough to be wearing a lead tent on his head, I think it's safe to assume he's tested it to make sure it can survive the process without collapsing.

If I were the wizard, I'd explicitely test it with a volunteer first (Be that a basic mannequin, a skeletal minion or a prisoner doesn't really matter).

High Int, after all. You're not going to put several tons of lead on your head without making sure it won't kill you. So it boils down to whether the DM says that the trick is allowed to work, or whether he dislikes the trick. :smallsmile:

Tinydwarfman
2010-08-12, 10:52 AM
And really, I don't know where this obsession with lead has come from. There are much lighter and stronger metals available for the job. Even wood would do trick.

Stompy
2010-08-12, 11:08 AM
And really, I don't know where this obsession with lead has come from. There are much lighter and stronger metals available for the job. Even wood would do trick.

Because it is used in radiational shielding? I do agree with you though.

potatocubed
2010-08-12, 11:40 AM
The lead thing is so you can use it as an improvised scrying and detect barrier as well.

I'd let the trick slide, but only because as GM I tend to make use of enemy spellcasters with dispel magic and equivalents. There's nothing like having the party wizard sealed in a lead cone mid-battle.

Psyx
2010-08-12, 11:54 AM
Sorry, that argument holds absolutly no water, given that I have not written lead hat on my character sheet, and you not my DM. Are you really telling me that if a PC raised the option of a lead hat you would then not allow them to change their minds and get a cloth hat instead?


Considering that my comment explicitly stated that the player HAD got 'lead hat' on the sheet, your counter-comment is rather a non sequitur.

If a player has 'shrunken lead hat' on their character sheet and then realises - on being hit with an AMF field and some maths - that it doesn't work and probably kills them, and wants a cloth one instead... tough. Unless they want to set a president for me reverting every monster choice that doesn't work:

"I fire a scotching ray"
"I have ray deflection... it bounces and kills you"
"I don't do that then, I cast Lightning Bolt"



can anyone suggest a way to shove the AMF right under the wizard's feet?

Bodycheck him?

Or meet him in the inn to negotiate. Upstairs in a private room. With a knot-hole in the wooden planking. Then cast it from underneath. Sorted. No arcane archer required...


1 pound of gold = 50 gp = ~$16000

How about we look at purchasing power?

Cheese, hunk of 1 sp 1/2 lb.
1/2lb of cheese = $5, say.
10 sp = 1 gp = $50
50gp = $2,500

We could get some horribly divergent amounts, because the price chart is so whack.

Bottle of fine wine = 10gp = $200, so then 1gp = $20
Untrained hireling = 1sp/day = $40, so then 1gp = $400

See?

Again out of boredom: In real world terms, if - using your 1lb = 50gp -we converted every ounce of gold ever mined into gp; there would be 169,840,000,000 gp in the world.




Because it is used in radiational shielding? I do agree with you though.

Because it was what was cited, presumably in this situation by the player trying to convince the GM that they had a get-out clause.



EDIT: You're going to make me engineer this out in real life

Please do; I'm interested. I don't know the structural strength of lead, so I guessed. Likewise, I used fa cigarette-packet maths for the hat sizes (and measured my own head...). You'd need sufficient angle not to squash your head, and to clear the shoulders - I neglected to consider that and simply took a guess. I also was rough in working out how much higher the 6" thickness would make the cone.

Maybe Mythbusters....?



Why are you assuming the player will be a jerk about it?

Because they blatantly are.

'You can't hit me with an AMF because I have a lead hat (*cough player conveniently utterly ignores all practicalities*) which will protect me despite of all common sense application. By the way, it's on my character sheet, and I never told you about it, despite the fact that it was a fairly noteworthy investment of resources, and has resulted in me having 16lb headwear on 16 hours a day for the last campaign year, just so I could spring it on you as a surprise.'


I don't see how. It's a pretty basic trick that doesn't even require abusing RAW technicalities or anything.

It abuses all common sense. And physics. Trying to argue RAW over physics and common sense is being a jerk. Walking around with 16lb of mass balanced on your head and not taking any kind of penalty or nod towards practicality for when you get hit by a 9th level spell is being a jerk.



the shrunken hat is a good trick

No, it's not. It's really not.

Abies
2010-08-12, 11:55 AM
I stopped reading after the first page because the answer had already been provided. Find a Pelorian-aligned Batman. Get the lvl 20+ Priests of Pelor involved, etc...

If that fails, and the Evile Batman actually succeds in defeating multiple epic/near epic servants of Pelor, then he probably has a God angry at him. Problem solved.

tyckspoon
2010-08-12, 12:08 PM
It abuses all common sense. And physics. Trying to argue RAW over physics and common sense is being a jerk. Walking around with 16lb of mass balanced on your head and not taking any kind of penalty or nod towards practicality for when you get hit by a 9th level spell is being a jerk.

No, it's not. It's really not.

If you're not hung up on lead for whatever reason, you can do wood or darkwood or mithral or any of the other abnormally light and strong materials that populate fantasy worlds.

If you're playing RAW, you don't even need to bother, because the wizard just shrugs and teleports out or pegs you in the face with a Deathorb anyway. AMF has some very big holes when you read it for what it actually does instead of what most players assume it does (notable exceptions: it does not counter or dispel attempted spellcastings, and instantaneous Conjurations work. While apparently meant as a reminder that it won't remove things that have their own non-magical existence once cast, what it *means* is that you can still cast a Dimension Door or an Orb of Flame.)

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 12:11 PM
Strictly, isn't it only once the conjured material has been produced, that an AMF won't affect it?

I got the impression that you can't cast orbs while in the field, but you can cast them outside the field, and hurl them in.

"Prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines" does seem to suggest that you can't actually cast a spell inside the field.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 12:15 PM
If you're not hung up on lead for whatever reason, you can do wood or darkwood or mithral or any of the other abnormally light and strong materials that populate fantasy worlds.

If you're playing RAW, you don't even need to bother, because the wizard just shrugs and teleports out or pegs you in the face with a Deathorb anyway. AMF has some very big holes when you read it for what it actually does instead of what most players assume it does (notable exceptions: it does not counter or dispel attempted spellcastings, and instantaneous Conjurations work. While apparently meant as a reminder that it won't remove things that have their own non-magical existence once cast, what it *means* is that you can still cast a Dimension Door or an Orb of Flame.)
You are fudging the conjurations thing:

The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.
"The effects" of a teleport is the movement, you still can't cast the spell inside, but you can teleport into the field. A Summoned Archon(Summon spells) disappears upon entering the field, but a Called Archon (Gate) won't. An Orb of Acid can be thrown into the field, but not cast within it.

HamHam
2010-08-12, 12:16 PM
Because they blatantly are.

'You can't hit me with an AMF because I have a lead hat (*cough player conveniently utterly ignores all practicalities*) which will protect me despite of all common sense application. By the way, it's on my character sheet, and I never told you about it, despite the fact that it was a fairly noteworthy investment of resources, and has resulted in me having 16lb headwear on 16 hours a day for the last campaign year, just so I could spring it on you as a surprise.'

You are assuming far too many things that were never present in the original question.


It abuses all common sense. And physics. Trying to argue RAW over physics and common sense is being a jerk. Walking around with 16lb of mass balanced on your head and not taking any kind of penalty or nod towards practicality for when you get hit by a 9th level spell is being a jerk.

By my calculations, assuming a 2m by 2m by 3m box with sides 2cm thick, the resulting shrunken item will weigh about 1.5 kg.

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 12:18 PM
Here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html

the dragon dismisses the spell, before teleporting. If it could teleport with the field up, wouldn't it have done so?

Of course, OoTS occasionally fudges the rules. Still, it does make sense.

tyckspoon
2010-08-12, 12:21 PM
, you still can't cast the spell inside

Prove it. That's the first exception I mentioned: The AMF does nothing to stop you from casting a spell inside it. AMF's text is really quite specific about that. Magic is suppressed, not dispelled (and by extension counterspelled, which is a specific kind of dispelling.) Casting a spell in the AMF is just usually pointless because of the suppression, but the second exemption- instant Conjurations- means there are some select spells that work regardless.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 12:23 PM
Prove it. That's the first exception I mentioned: The AMF does nothing to stop you from casting a spell inside it. AMF's text is really quite specific about that. Magic is suppressed, not dispelled (and by extension counterspelled, which is a specific kind of dispelling.) Casting a spell in the AMF is just usually pointless because of the suppression, but the second exemption- instant Conjurations- means there are some select spells that work regardless.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
Casting from inside doesn't work at all. You wave your hands and look silly and that's the end of it. It's not dispelling anything because nothing is cast in the first place.

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 12:26 PM
Yup:

The only reason the effects of of instantaneous conjurations still function is:


(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Emmerask
2010-08-12, 12:28 PM
Prove it. That's the first exception I mentioned: The AMF does nothing to stop you from casting a spell inside it. AMF's text is really quite specific about that. Magic is suppressed, not dispelled (and by extension counterspelled, which is a specific kind of dispelling.) Casting a spell in the AMF is just usually pointless because of the suppression, but the second exemption- instant Conjurations- means there are some select spells that work regardless.

nope, they work only if you are outside the amf casting them inside it not if you are inside and casting them :smallwink:
Ie for the casting you need magic after the casting is done it is no longer magical and thus not effected by the amf.

HamHam
2010-08-12, 12:29 PM
What's funny is that this apparently means that an orb of pure force is a non-magical object.

Emmerask
2010-08-12, 12:30 PM
Yeah its kind of stupid indeed :smallsmile:
Or that an orb of fire somehow deals 10d6 dmg when fire only deals 1d6 (no matter how big the fire is)

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 12:32 PM
The fire of the Elemental Plane of Fire does a bit more fire damage, as does exposure to lava.

I think of such conjuration spells as reaching to the relevant plane, and pulling out some "elemental material".

Snake-Aes
2010-08-12, 12:34 PM
To go into even sillier grounds, assume the spell is indeed cast but autosupressed inside the field. Now casting a teleportation inside it burns the spell and you don't get teleported anyway. Cute, isn't it? Does give some power back to long conjurations, but anything on round/level grounds will be still uselessly cast.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 12:43 PM
Walking around with 16lb of mass balanced on your head and not taking any kind of penalty or nod towards practicality for when you get hit by a 9th level spell is being a jerk.

Well, obviously if you're balancing 16 lb. on your head, nodding towards anything is a bad idea. :smalltongue:

Knaight
2010-08-12, 12:44 PM
It abuses all common sense. And physics. Trying to argue RAW over physics and common sense is being a jerk. Walking around with 16lb of mass balanced on your head and not taking any kind of penalty or nod towards practicality for when you get hit by a 9th level spell is being a jerk.




No, it's not. It's really not.

Of course it abuses physics, it involves the spell shrink object, which is the go to spell for messing with inertia, conservation of mass and energy, and pretty much every other physical law. The hat trick is a reasonable defense, that requires significant preparation (if using the easier, iron version you still need wall of iron and fabricate or similar), and it only works once, then needs replacement. Furthermore it is really, really easy to counter once it is a known factor. Drop AMF, follow with a quickened orb of acid or similar, and there is now a giant hole in it preventing total shielding. At which point you can either keep firing orbs, or bring in archers.

If it is just listed on the character sheet and never mentioned it is rather impolite, but if the effort to create it is put in, its just a last ditch defense that costs three spells per one dropped.

Gnaeus
2010-08-12, 12:56 PM
The argument about the hat is pointless. The hat is an arena trick. If the AMF works, at best it kills a Simulacrum. More likely, when the AMF goes off, the wizard turns into a Dominated commoner with a hat of disguise who points out that the wizard knew about the stupid paladin/Arcane Archer/AMF plan a week ago via divination magic and now he is sitting in his citadel on another plane torturing 5 innocent children to death as punishment for the paladin's arrogance.

The epic casting clerics at the high temple are the only way to win.

Emmerask
2010-08-12, 12:56 PM
Sure I would allow it, with some additions:
max dex bonus 2, 10% arcane spell failure, -10ft base land speed, fly becomes one step worse hm I think thats quite fair for having 7,5Kg of stuff balanced on your head :smallwink:

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 01:11 PM
...the wizard knew about the stupid paladin/Arcane Archer/AMF plan a week ago via divination magic and now he is sitting in his citadel on another plane torturing 5 innocent children to death as punishment for the paladin's arrogance.

The epic casting clerics at the high temple are the only way to win.

...if your DM is a jerk. :smalltongue: Seriously, I feel that this whole thought experiment is only of any value if we consider it as a party going up against an NPC wizard who plays according to forum philosophies and is therefore genuinely hard to beat.

Hard, that is, but not impossible. And not requiring the PCs to sit it out and watch high-level NPCs solve the problem.

For a start, the wizard should have some inkling of the PCs' forthcoming plans through divinations, yes. But the DM should throw the players a bone, here; the wizard only gets vague answers, perhaps because he's gone and messed with the wrong people, the servants of the gods, and so his best divinations are being denied.

So sure, he learns that the PCs are planning to drop an AMF on him. (Even without divinations, that's a sensible guess.) So he prepares by putting on the shrink item hat -- not knowing that the paladin has picked up an arcane archer who can stick the centre of the AMF right into the wizard's square, if not into his chest.

And sure, he prepares a heavily trapped fortress of solitude in a personal demiplane. Pelor slips the PCs a note with directions on navigating the Astral Plane to get to the demiplane, and then the rogue gets busy doing exactly what her class was designed to do.

Stompy
2010-08-12, 01:36 PM
So, what should a paladin do in this case in your opoinion? (except trying to smite the batman and getting burnt to cinders :smallbiggrin: )

I've got a better answer to this: Cheese my diplomacy through the roof, and get Batman to not want to kill me or my congregation.

If Batman is a PC, whine to the DM.

EDIT:
The argument about the hat is pointless. The hat is an arena trick.

Agreed. A lvl 20 batman wizard should have other means around an AMF (who is casting this btw?).

If I were Batman, I would put the paladin in a fall-fall situation.

Gnaeus
2010-08-12, 02:06 PM
...if your DM is a jerk. :smalltongue: Seriously, I feel that this whole thought experiment is only of any value if we consider it as a party going up against an NPC wizard who plays according to forum philosophies and is therefore genuinely hard to beat.

If the DM lets the PC's win, they aren't really fighting a level 20 wizard. A level 20 wizard is smarter than all of us put together. A mid level paladin only beats a level 20 wizard by DM fiat. The jerk move was introducing the level 20 wizard as the antagonist in the first place, not in playing him intelligently. The arcane archer will never get a chance to put an arrow in a level 20 wizard, only in someone who LOOKS like a level 20 wizard. Then a balor will appear and wipe the map with the heroes.

Anything else is like saying that a mid-level paladin can beat a greater deity. If he just happens to run across the deity when the deity is in a coma, with a +500 artifact sword of greater deity slaying next to the body.

Emmerask
2010-08-12, 03:07 PM
Nah, this particular wizard is not very smart at all if everything he can come up with is I have slave buy them or I blast you :smallwink:

Psyx
2010-08-12, 04:37 PM
By my calculations, assuming a 2m by 2m by 3m box with sides 2cm thick, the resulting shrunken item will weigh about 1.5 kg.

2cm of lead is not going to hold itself up, I'm afraid.


What's funny is that this apparently means that an orb of pure force is a non-magical object.

That's how I'd always read it, too. You can chuck non-magical magical spheres of force at people!


A level 20 wizard is smarter than all of us put together.

But not wiser...


If it is just listed on the character sheet and never mentioned it is rather impolite

It's cheating to my mind, but YMMV. Anyone buying an item they just made up of that weight and not asking the GM is flat-out playing the wrong game, to my mind.


Of course... the cone only works on level-ish ground, too.

Mystic Muse
2010-08-12, 04:38 PM
But not wiser.

Unless you're the DM, you can't know that.

Boci
2010-08-12, 05:04 PM
2cm of lead is not going to hold itself up, I'm afraid.

It doesn't have to be made out of lead though.

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-12, 05:25 PM
The whole 'made of lead' thing does seem to introduce a lot of complications and points for argument for the sake of an oddly inconvenient type of scrying shield. Really, this is a thing that even Maxwell Smart would think twice before requesting the use of.

If we instead say that it is made out of a much more reasonable material such as a light but strong wood, all those self-supporting questions and the massive weight go right out the window. Something like that would weigh considerably less than your average dresser and be just as much cover for the purposes of blocking an emanation as a closed wooden door.

And if you really, really wanted the whole lead thing, I think that a thin lead sheeting in between the layers of a double-layer wooden cone made out of some light wood, would serve the purpose of blocking most scrying, without making the thing ridiculously heavy in either its shrunken or full-sized forms.

However, as others have noted, a dispel magic, which is something people commonly toss at a wizard in a fight, would make this more of a hindrance to its user than to her enemies. Sure, it protects against an antimagic field...it also puts you under a cone that at the least requires probably a full-round action to lift off the ground in order to come out from under it, and this is going to happen a lot more often than finding yourself in an antimagic field.

HamHam
2010-08-12, 06:30 PM
The whole 'made of lead' thing does seem to introduce a lot of complications and points for argument for the sake of an oddly inconvenient type of scrying shield. Really, this is a thing that even Maxwell Smart would think twice before requesting the use of.

If we instead say that it is made out of a much more reasonable material such as a light but strong wood, all those self-supporting questions and the massive weight go right out the window. Something like that would weigh considerably less than your average dresser and be just as much cover for the purposes of blocking an emanation as a closed wooden door.

And if you really, really wanted the whole lead thing, I think that a thin lead sheeting in between the layers of a double-layer wooden cone made out of some light wood, would serve the purpose of blocking most scrying, without making the thing ridiculously heavy in either its shrunken or full-sized forms.

However, as others have noted, a dispel magic, which is something people commonly toss at a wizard in a fight, would make this more of a hindrance to its user than to her enemies. Sure, it protects against an antimagic field...it also puts you under a cone that at the least requires probably a full-round action to lift off the ground in order to come out from under it, and this is going to happen a lot more often than finding yourself in an antimagic field.

Teleport. Dimension Door.

Kantolin
2010-08-12, 07:14 PM
No sane person would oppose him

That is an important and extremely reasonable statement. There are a half dozen reasons why a group of functionally nobodies could possibly stop a high level wizard, or generally catch him with his pants down, due to this.

He obviously cares about the Paladins: He blew them up, utilizing enough force that he (reasonably) assumes the remaining Paladins cannot be of any threat to him.

Now, to make sure of this, he'd have quite a few defenses in place. Maybe persist the spell spell resistance (he's level 20, any remaining clerics are nowhere nearby, they probably can't solve this) and Ironguard (Now he's immune to weapons, the Paladins probably can't solve this), and... and sure, go nuts little Billy with your stick.

Said wizard can now occupy his time dealing with the people he's selling the slaves and undead /to/, or whatever the reason is for.

This is especially true if the Paladins wait, say, a year or so before attempting anything. Sure, he might be on guard for immediate reprecussions, but then he can go do other things. Maybe deal with the twelve Djinn who are giving him some trouble. Maybe secure a new source of onyx and stuff.

And remember - the standard good response to a major evil threat is to go send ~four characters at it that can defeat it usually using up one quarter of their resources. This could be because tons of outsiders from various planes have all decided to aid in the killing of the wizard at once, this could be due to other wizards/clerics helping, this could be because of artifacts and macguffins, this could be because of deific help, this could be absolute dumb luck, and all of that is reasonable for a level 20 boss.

And seriously: A slightly tippyversed level 20 wizard, for whatever reason, notices a team that includes a Paladin, Arcane Archer, and Rogue gathering up and slaying monsters. If he goes to blow them up, then he's going to spend a lot of time blowing up irrelevant people and not much time doing anything else, until there aren't any more people (After all, there are tons of stories of people solving extra-planar problems, so there'd have to be nobody who wants to or is capable of opposing him /anywhere/), and that's less feasible.

Now, if that group goes over there and in fact fails to succeed, then there becomes sudden reason to start preparing about (a) attacks in general for a bit, and (b) that specific tactic. After being pegged in the chest with an antimagic field and ending up trapped in an antimagic cone that was immediately sundered, I'd probably find some solution about that particular irritation. But that's after the fact. :P

Jack_Simth
2010-08-12, 08:11 PM
Let's see... how many ways are there to get an AMF under the hat?

1) Holes in the floor, cast from beneath (mentioned)
2) Arcane Archer (as mentioned)
3) Master Specialist PrC (Complete... Mage or Arcane, I forget which): Abjuration - lets you apply such things as touch-range spells.
4) Be really, really small, and in the Wizard's square when the spell is cast (so when the hat expands... the caster of the AMF is also underneath - Ring of Spell Storing on a Raven familiar, perhaps).
5) Antimagic Ray (Spell Compendium)
6) Destroy/remove the hat first (mentioned)

Anyone have others?

Really... once known, the hat is a relatively easily countered trick. And is more of a hindrance than a help in normal play.

As for what to do?
Well, after the Wizard has ruthlessly slaughtered a temple of Pelor... if he's an NPC, you can have a diplomancer convince him to do otherwise, AND make amends. Or he's a villain, so you set up a quest to handle him. If he's a PC, you've got a problem: There's either a VERY big discrepancy in party levels, or the DM is not making challenging encounters. If you're the DM, running actions, you follow up the Batman Wizard with a Batman Cleric or another Batman Wizard, aligned with the destroyed temple in some manner.

There's other means... the Wizard may be untouchable... but the merchants running his empire are less so. If nobody buys materials (or those who do find themselves without customers of their own, and quickly out of business - basic economic pressure, most people's method, but especially true of the local rulers - can't have people getting away with blowing up a particularly useful chunk of their city), the merchants go away. If the merchants turn up dead, they go away (assassin's guild - may be hired by someone sympathetic to the destroyed church, they might just be doing so to get that rogue element out of 'their' city). If the stock vanishes out of the merchant's pens in the night, the merchants quickly stop coming (Thieves' Guild - same basic motivations as the Assasin's guild, plus the Thieves' Guild can resell elsewhere). And so on. This Wizard must either essentially give up what he came to do, or spend a rather large chunk of resources going after all these people.

Kantolin
2010-08-12, 08:25 PM
There's also the 'what is the wizard's contingency?' game, as I think about it.

If the wizard's contingency is 'When my lead hat opens up, levitate on it' or something related to an antimagic field defense, then you can just have the Paladin charge him on a pegasus. Doesn't even necessarily require any planning either - level 20 wizards have 20d4+(con*20) - you can pretty easily do that much damage without actually trying.

If the wizard's contingency is 'When someone would attack me, dimension door the heck out of there', then you go with the antimagic field or dispel magic. Antimagic field and dispel magic. Maybe an antimagic field and something to bust up any objects that may happen. Maybe both.

I mean, if a wizard's paranoid to the point where he can't be stopped, he's probably simultaneously not actually /doing/ anything of relevance except being defended. This one has interests and has stepped out into the relative open to accomplish them, and commenced with a direct devastation solution when he would've otherwise been deterred.

Tinydwarfman
2010-08-12, 10:19 PM
There's also the 'what is the wizard's contingency?' game, as I think about it.

If the wizard's contingency is 'When my lead hat opens up, levitate on it' or something related to an antimagic field defense, then you can just have the Paladin charge him on a pegasus. Doesn't even necessarily require any planning either - level 20 wizards have 20d4+(con*20) - you can pretty easily do that much damage without actually trying.

If the wizard's contingency is 'When someone would attack me, dimension door the heck out of there', then you go with the antimagic field or dispel magic. Antimagic field and dispel magic. Maybe an antimagic field and something to bust up any objects that may happen. Maybe both.

I mean, if a wizard's paranoid to the point where he can't be stopped, he's probably simultaneously not actually /doing/ anything of relevance except being defended. This one has interests and has stepped out into the relative open to accomplish them, and commenced with a direct devastation solution when he would've otherwise been deterred.

A few things:
1. What contingency? The tinfoil hat trick requires no contingencies. Only the 3rd level spell Shrink Item.

2. We might as well start playing 20 questions then, because a 20th level wizard can have 20 contingencies.

3. One can easily have an array of formidable defenses strong enough to stop and low-mid level paladins and still go adventuring all the time.

Kantolin
2010-08-13, 12:37 AM
A few things:
1. What contingency? The tinfoil hat trick requires no contingencies. Only the 3rd level spell Shrink Item.

''When my lead hat opens up, levitate on it' and 'When someone would attack me, dimension door the heck out of there'. The former (or similar) was listed in the topic, the latter is a relatively common one I see listed around. I then also both listed which contingencies I was talking about in the post you quoted.

2. We might as well start playing 20 questions then, because a 20th level wizard can have 20 contingencies. [/quote]

Unless there's more shenanigans I don't know about, which is admittedly probable:


You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

But even if so, then sure! That'll just make it harder to succeed (by quite a bit), but it's still possible. Would take a rather epic adventure.

I'm not saying a low level series of Paladins is very likely to beat a wizard, just that it can be done. The wizard will, in particular, have his attention in quite a few places which make it particularly likely for the little guy to win, and Good is really good at having its little guys winning. Frequently using slightly more than a quarter of their total resources.


3. One can easily have an array of formidable defenses strong enough to stop and low-mid level paladins and still go adventuring all the time.

Possibly, but not when they've been gearing up to solve you personally with shenanigans like antimagic field arrows.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 12:44 AM
If the DM lets the PC's win, they aren't really fighting a level 20 wizard. A level 20 wizard is smarter than all of us put together. A mid level paladin only beats a level 20 wizard by DM fiat. The jerk move was introducing the level 20 wizard as the antagonist in the first place, not in playing him intelligently.

By this same reasoning, no game should ever involve players going up against gods. The gods will find out about it ahead of time and smack them down before they can possibly be a threat.

Funnily enough, god-slaying games come up fairly often, and the ways of getting around divine omniscience are many and varied. If the DM wants to pit the PCs against a realistically played 20th-level batman wizard, what's so wrong with that? I don't care how smart you are, you're not unbeatable.

I'd link to the appropriate OotS strip here (Eugene declaring, with zero irony, that magic is all-powerful and has no weaknesses, after Roy accuses him of thinking exactly like that), but it's a book-only strip. :smallsmile:


The arcane archer will never get a chance to put an arrow in a level 20 wizard, only in someone who LOOKS like a level 20 wizard.

Why? Why is it so impossible to believe that another character, gods forbid a character who's not a 20th-level wizard-with-full-casting-PrCs, can do anything to hurt a 20th-level wizard? "Universal immunity" is not a class feature. Neither is "instant godhood". Yes, a high-level wizard has phenomenal cosmic power, but they have their limits. The PCs just need to overcome them. (And that's made a lot easier if the DM plays the NPCs by the same sensible rules that he/she should be applying to the PCs, banning broken spells and the like.)


Anything else is like saying that a mid-level paladin can beat a greater deity. If he just happens to run across the deity when the deity is in a coma, with a +500 artifact sword of greater deity slaying next to the body.

20th-level wizard != greater deity, except perhaps in their own minds. :smalltongue: And that's a perfectly legitimate way to beat a god, if you leave out the "just happens" part. PCs who want to take out a god should do their homework and find out when they're vulnerable and what can hurt them. Same with the wizard, except he's more limited.

EDIT:

Unless there's more shenanigans I don't know about, which is admittedly probable:

Tinydwarfman probably meant the Craft Contingent Spell feat, quite possibly one of the more broken feats out there.

Milskidasith
2010-08-13, 12:59 AM
A note to people suggesting dispel magic hurts the hat: It's an item. Dispel Magic cast on the wizard does nothing, and Area dispels don't work on items, IIRC. You'd have to target the hat, which, although admittedly clever (CL check to make the wizard waste an action next round, if you really can't think of a better way to hit him), is generally not that useful unless you are chain dispelling him.

Psyx
2010-08-13, 05:36 AM
Unless you're the DM, you can't know that.

I'm pretty sure a 20th level wizzy doesn't have a Wisdom greater than the combined amount of everyone who uses this board... Int, probably... but not Wisdom!

I think we've already noticed that Batman makes mistakes, because levelling a temple of Pelor in order to sell them some stuff is inherently UTTERLY STUPID. If he makes mistakes, he can die. In this hypothetical discussion, the lead hat that smugly popped into existence has already killed the guy. You can't keep saying 'ah...oh, he thought of that, it was actually mithril' and calling on external resources every time it doesn't go the way the wizard wanted it to. Because eventually we'll be back-pedalled to 'he didn't go into the temple of Pelor and demand anything, because it's a dumb plan'.

Being intelligent doesn't mean you can come up with every single possible contingency, any more than a grand-master in chess can't think ten moves in advance. Furthermore; intelligence is not common sense. I know lots of smart people who are incapable of planning a train journey; let alone world conquest.


I think that the quickened acid attack to the cone would do the job nicely, barring a teleporting contingency. Then he's trapped in a cone, and in an AMF.


If we instead say that it is made out of a much more reasonable material such as a light but strong wood, all those self-supporting questions and the massive weight go right out the window.

Don't de-value my maths darnit :smallbiggrin:

And then the paladin who is acting in initiative order before the wizard can knock it over, hack a chunk out of it, and it ceases to function as intended.
Any decent follow-up attack prior to his next initiative is going to get rid of the hat'o'protection.



By my calculations, assuming a 2m by 2m by 3m box with sides 2cm thick, the resulting shrunken item will weigh about 1.5 kg.

I think you maths is wrong. Quite drastically for a 1/12 shrink, so that it fits on a head.

(4(wh)+w^2)td is what you need to do.

Where:
w=width of sides
h=height
t=thickness of material
d=density of substance

Jack_Simth
2010-08-13, 07:11 AM
A few things:
1. What contingency? The tinfoil hat trick requires no contingencies. Only the 3rd level spell Shrink Item.

The contingency on the hat being to keep it from crushing the mage...


2. We might as well start playing 20 questions then, because a 20th level wizard can have 20 contingencies.
Sorta. If all sources are permitted, then yes, Craft Contingent Spell will let him have 20 contingencies (plus one for Contingency itself). In a Core game, though, he's got, at most, one.

3. One can easily have an array of formidable defenses strong enough to stop and low-mid level paladins and still go adventuring all the time.
You can! But Paladins are not inherently suicidal. Once it's determined that the Paladins can't directly hurt the Wizard, they'll be looking at indirect methods - eroding his power base (it's really difficult to be everywhere at once), pooling resources and posting large bounties for other adventurers, convincing the local lords to face up to the threat (which won't be hard - you don't blow up a temple in the middle of someone's city without making the rulers nervous that you'll simply take whatever you want by force), and so on. Adventurers face things close to their own level. As a PC Wizard-20, you'll generally be facing CR 18-23 challenges (some of which will be Wizards). As an NPC Villian Wizard-20, you'll generally be facing groups of 3-6 class leveled ECL 17-22 challenges (and one of them will almost always be a Wizard).

A note to people suggesting dispel magic hurts the hat: It's an item. Dispel Magic cast on the wizard does nothing, and Area dispels don't work on items, IIRC. You'd have to target the hat, which, although admittedly clever (CL check to make the wizard waste an action next round, if you really can't think of a better way to hit him), is generally not that useful unless you are chain dispelling him.
Ahem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm):
For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures.
The hat is a mundane item with a spell cast on it. Quite subject to an area dispel (well, Greater Dispel or Disjunction, anyway - regular Dispel Magic is going to have a hard time of it with the +10 bonus vs. DC 31 or higher....)

Psyx
2010-08-13, 08:05 AM
The contingency on the hat being to keep it from crushing the mage...


Interesting point: The contingency is cast from outside line of effect from the AMF, onto the hat. But the hat is inside the AMF. Why would the levitate work?

And even suppose it does, a hole punched in the hat would then 'spill' the AMF into the hatzone, which most certainly would kill off the spell.

Gnaeus
2010-08-13, 08:33 AM
By this same reasoning, no game should ever involve Paladins going up against gods. The gods will find out about it ahead of time and smack them down before they can possibly be a threat.

Your statement is now correct.


If the DM wants to pit the PCs against a realistically played 20th-level batman wizard, what's so wrong with that? I don't care how smart you are, you're not unbeatable.

Nothing is wrong with that. Unfortunately, the wizard who cannot be hurt by paladins IS the realistically played 20th-level batman wizard. The term batman wizard means a wizard who prepares a huge array of abilities against different kinds of threats. At 20th level, that character is unbeatable by mid level muggles.



Why? Why is it so impossible to believe that another character, gods forbid a character who's not a 20th-level wizard-with-full-casting-PrCs, can do anything to hurt a 20th-level wizard? "Universal immunity" is not a class feature. Neither is "instant godhood". Yes, a high-level wizard has phenomenal cosmic power, but they have their limits. The PCs just need to overcome them. (And that's made a lot easier if the DM plays the NPCs by the same sensible rules that he/she should be applying to the PCs, banning broken spells and the like.)

Because after leveling the temple, the wizard never visits the town again. He sends a disguised apprentice, or a simulacrum, or a dominated peon. The wizard is in an area that mid-level muggles can't get to. If they DO get there, he is quickly notified by magical and mundane means, and he either escapes, or destroys them in uncounterable ways (The Arcane Archer, for example, is easily stopped by a well positioned Wind Wall, Scry and Die, Bound or Gated monsters, etc.) The actual wizard only appears only when he needs to, when divinations reveal no threats, and with overwhelming force. If, for example, the wizard only enters town in the company of 2 mid level wizard apprentices and 2 18 HD Outsiders, plus maybe one or two constructs or created undead, properly spaced to prevent AOEs, even the antimagic field does nothing to help the paladins. They just get killed by demons instead of meteor swarms. The wizard doesn't do this because he is afraid of paladins, he does this because he is afraid of Solars and 20th level Clerics, but anything that will protect you from a couple of Solars and high level allies will protect you from mid level muggles.


20th-level wizard != greater deity, except perhaps in their own minds.

And the only relevant difference is that the PCs might be able to find a full caster who can beat the Wiz 20, while they probably can't find a bigger stick than the greater deity. From the perspective of a mid level paladin engaging the wizard directly, there is no power difference between the wizard and the deity.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-13, 08:59 AM
By this same reasoning, no game should ever involve Paladins going up against gods. The gods will find out about it ahead of time and smack them down before they can possibly be a threat.Your statement is now correct.

Fun fact: paladins aren't bound by gods.

HamHam
2010-08-13, 09:15 AM
I think you maths is wrong. Quite drastically for a 1/12 shrink, so that it fits on a head.

(4(wh)+w^2)td is what you need to do.

Where:
w=width of sides
h=height
t=thickness of material
d=density of substance

You're forgetting the part where Shrink Item divides the mass by 4000.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 10:24 AM
Your statement is now correct.

Use a smiley when you do that joke, mate. Don't want anyone to take offence. :smallsmile:


Nothing is wrong with that. Unfortunately, the wizard who cannot be hurt by paladins IS the realistically played 20th-level batman wizard. The term batman wizard means a wizard who prepares a huge array of abilities against different kinds of threats. At 20th level, that character is unbeatable by mid level muggles.

"If it bleeds, we can kill it."

Undefeatable is not the defining feature of a batman wizard. A batman wizard prepares multiple levels of spells and situations in order to protect himself and defeat his enemies. A defining feature of the batman wizard is also that he employs other people among his many resources.

All of this just opens up more attack vectors. I don't care how smart you are*, you can't defend against every possibility. (Especially if the game world makes sense. Uber-powerful BBEG isn't getting smacked down directly by the gods, and in fact mid-level divine servants and their allies are off to do the task. So the setting's gods must agree with me that there is a way to beat the wizard.)

And there's a point. Why are we assuming that the party is mid-level? The question is, "What can a mid-level paladin do when a 20th-level wizard antagonises them?" And hey, "Form a party and level up" is a perfectly legitimate answer.


Because after leveling the temple, the wizard never visits the town again. He sends a disguised apprentice, or a simulacrum, or a dominated peon.

None of which tricks will survive contact with characters with good Wisdom, Sense Motive, and/or true seeing.


The wizard is in an area that mid-level muggles can't get to. If they DO get there, he is quickly notified by magical and mundane means, and he either escapes, or destroys them in uncounterable ways

Let's have some concrete examples?


(The Arcane Archer, for example, is easily stopped by a well positioned Wind Wall, Scry and Die, Bound or Gated monsters, etc.)

Wind walls can be dispelled, and a party ready to take on a high-level wizard will say "Bring it on!" to the others.


* Hehe, I'm picturing Sheldon Cooper as a high-level wizard. Incredibly intelligent, but...

Tyndmyr
2010-08-13, 10:58 AM
However, as others have noted, a dispel magic, which is something people commonly toss at a wizard in a fight, would make this more of a hindrance to its user than to her enemies. Sure, it protects against an antimagic field...it also puts you under a cone that at the least requires probably a full-round action to lift off the ground in order to come out from under it, and this is going to happen a lot more often than finding yourself in an antimagic field.

Ring of Counterspelling + Abrupt Jaunt.

You now have no fear of it being dispelled, and frankly, countering dispel magic was totally worth the ring slot anyhow. Getting out is now a swift action. If there's an AMF in play, a farther reaching teleport is in order.

Edit: I also feel magically hardened adamantium is a better choice. I understand the desire to block scrying and the like, but seriously...a hat goes poof, and your first thought is "dammit, he might SCRY on me?" No, no. The danger is that he has his buddy sunder the hat, then beats your scrawny wizard butt. You want a tough hat.

Emmerask
2010-08-13, 11:13 AM
The actual wizard only appears only when he needs to, when divinations reveal no threats, and with overwhelming force.

Easily remedied, just use counter divinations to effectively create a Paradox rendering all answers the wizard has gotten invalid :smallwink:

Granted you need a character (and a player) with some skill in logic and some resources and you need to know the threat (wizard) or a few of his actions to know him but in this scenario you do so no problem there.
With this you can effectively shut down all the divinations that are regarding the future leaving a wizard who does not know whats coming for him. :smallsmile:

Sure he will still be hard to beat but with some planning you can shut down a lot of the wizards defenses and render him killable.

Gnaeus
2010-08-13, 11:21 AM
"If it bleeds, we can kill it."

Aside from the fact that that statement is obviously false, is is trivially easy for a wizard 20 to make it so that he doesn't bleed.


Undefeatable is not the defining feature of a batman wizard. A batman wizard prepares multiple levels of spells and situations in order to protect himself and defeat his enemies. A defining feature of the batman wizard is also that he employs other people among his many resources.

Sure. That would be those high level apprentices, Demons, golems, undead, and dominated servants that I mentioned.

Undefeatable by mid level muggles is a defining feature of a LEVEL 20 batman wizard.

And yes, it is maybe possible for the PCs to interfere with his underlings enough for the wizard to decide that this town isn't a profitable undertaking and send some Mariliths or Horned Devils to level it, but that is a pretty dubious win scenario.


Uber-powerful BBEG isn't getting smacked down directly by the gods, and in fact mid-level divine servants and their allies are off to do the task. So the setting's gods must agree with me that there is a way to beat the wizard.)

And there is, just not by the newbs in question. Things like solars are a real threat to a batman wizard. Things like epic-casting clerics will crush even the batman wizard.


And there's a point. Why are we assuming that the party is mid-level? The question is, "What can a mid-level paladin do when a 20th-level wizard antagonises them?"



Now, mechanics-wise paladins are lvl 6-12, while batman is lvl 20. No sane person would oppose him, but there is still a question of being a paladin of LG allignment.

If the paladins gain 6-12 levels while retraining their paladin levels to cleric, favored soul, sorcerer, or something useful then yes, they have a good shot. That is a totally different scenario.



None of which tricks will survive contact with characters with good Wisdom, Sense Motive

High wisdom (+ some know arcana): "Hmm. The wizard is probably using disguised duplicates. Can't really tell which ones are underlings and which ones are him. I bet if we kill his underlings he will be really mad and hurt a bunch of innocent people. "

Sense Motive (after talking with target for a minute): "err, I have a hunch something is wrong"



and/or true seeing.

Paladin: I cast True Seeing!
DM: Not on your list. Go find a cleric. :smalleek:


Easily remedied, just use counter divinations to effectively create a Paradox rendering all answers the wizard has gotten invalid :smallwink:

Paladin: I cast Commune
DM: You are not a cleric. You can't even cast 4th level spells. Find Temple is not going to invalidate the Wizard's divinations.



Let's have some concrete examples?

I dunno. A wizards guild only accessable by teleport or plane shift, and then only if you know where you are going to, and then only into heavily defended chokepoints. Filled with Symbols attuned to the inhabitants, alarm spells, alarm traps, familiar sized hidden passages with viewing holes, Golems, Outsiders, and Undead, all CR equal or well above your 6-12th level party. I would probably think about it for a few hours to make it harder, bearing in mind that it is designed to kill annoyances, and delay angels, rival wizards and angry enemy clerics for long enough for wizard to escape.



Wind walls can be dispelled,

With a caster level check against a wizard 8 levels above you. Who can cast another quickened Wind Wall. Unless it is a paladin casting, in which case it is a wizard 14 caster levels above you.


and a party ready to take on a high-level wizard will say "Bring it on!" to the others.

But, and this is the important point, You don't have a party ready to take on a high-level wizard. You have a bunch of level 6-12 paladins and an arcane archer. I readily admit, as I have stated earlier, that if they go find somebody, like the 17th up through epic level casting clerics at the high temple, the wizard is beatable. He isn't beatable by the described group.

Emmerask
2010-08-13, 11:28 AM
Paladin: I cast True Seeing!
DM: Not on your list. Go find a cleric. Loser. :smalleek:



You are forgetting that we have a a lot of very pissed palor (I think it was correct me if I´m wrong) clerics that will render assistants bringing the wizard down, maybe they need a few donations but that shouldn´t be a problem for an 11th level party :smallwink:

Gnaeus
2010-08-13, 11:32 AM
You are forgetting that we have a a lot of very pissed palor (I think it was correct me if I´m wrong) clerics that will render assistants bringing the wizard down, maybe they need a few donations but that shouldn´t be a problem for an 11th level party :smallwink:

If the paladin's mission is going to the head temple of pelor and telling the guys who can actually beat the wizard to come help, that is doable. I said that from the beginning.

What isn't feasable is that the group described can beat the wizard described in anything like a head to head fight, or even seriously slow him down in a way which will not simply result in the death of every living person in town. The group that will kill the wizard will not need a level 12 paladin as anything but a messenger or a squire.

Emmerask
2010-08-13, 11:35 AM
I would say it is still the paladin guys are trying to finish the wizard, they just spend some resources on countermeasures. They don´t tell the palor guys to do the job for them, just to destroy one of the defenses ^^

ie they play it smart and don´t rush in without any planning whatsoever :smallsmile:

Gnaeus
2010-08-13, 11:44 AM
So the paladins get the pelor cleric to come (which is still outside the range of the original debate). They screw up the divinations. They kill a simulacrum. The clerics leave.

The wizard arrives in town angry. With him are 2 lower level wizards, an iron golem, and 2 mariliths. The arcane archer can't even see the wizard, who is mirror imaged in an invisible spell fog cloud, but we will pretend that he can AMF him anyway (maybe he shoots the dirt). The mariliths kill all the paladins, the lower level wizards waste the arcane archer. The big bad steps out of the AMF and goes home. Yay???

More likely, the archer never even gets a shot. The wizard has Foresight, so he knows the moment they enter town that they are about to be ambushed. He teleports home, leaving his goons to kill everyone.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 01:29 PM
Aside from the fact that that statement is obviously false, is is trivially easy for a wizard 20 to make it so that he doesn't bleed.

It was a Schwarzenegger quote, possibly misremembered.


And there is, just not by the newbs in question. Things like solars are a real threat to a batman wizard. Things like epic-casting clerics will crush even the batman wizard.

Two points:
1. The fact that the Solar Spec-Ops Squad hasn't smacked down the wizard yet, is an indication that (in a reasonable setting with reasonable deities) the gods want the paladin's party to succeed and know that they can.
2. 12th-level characters aren't "newbs". They're already legends (by the terms of legend lore if nothing else), just not in the wizard's league yet. And it's that "yet" that's important.


If the paladins gain 6-12 levels while retraining their paladin levels to cleric, favored soul, sorcerer, or something useful then yes, they have a good shot. That is a totally different scenario.

You seem to have a degree of "forumite blindness" that says that anything not Tier 2 or better can't contribute in any meaningful way. Years of many players' experience disagrees with you.


High wisdom (+ some know arcana): "Hmm. The wizard is probably using disguised duplicates. Can't really tell which ones are underlings and which ones are him. I bet if we kill his underlings he will be really mad and hurt a bunch of innocent people. "

Sense Motive (after talking with target for a minute): "err, I have a hunch something is wrong"

No.

Simulacrum: "You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check."

Dominate: Simple Sense Motive. "You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities."

Disguises, magical or mundane: Spot, dispel, true seeing, or the very fact that you got close to the BBEG "wizard" with a weapon handy, without him teleporting away or killing you.


Paladin: I cast True Seeing!
DM: Not on your list. Go find a cleric. :smalleek:

Emmerask covered this. You seem to have interpreted "we have a cleric in the party" as "we're getting 20th-level clerics to solve all our problems for us".


I dunno. A wizards guild only accessable by teleport or plane shift, and then only if you know where you are going to, and then only into heavily defended chokepoints. Filled with Symbols attuned to the inhabitants, alarm spells, alarm traps, familiar sized hidden passages with viewing holes, Golems, Outsiders, and Undead...

Rogue, rogue, rogue, Spot (and a chance to kill the wizard's familiar -- not the brightest idea Batman ever had), golem-smashing time, and a paladin of Pelor and his Pelorite buddies vs. your undead and (most likely Evil) outsiders.


...all CR equal or well above your 6-12th level party.

So on the one hand you say that the paladin could only be useful, even at 20th level, if no longer a paladin. On the other hand you continue to insist the party is stuck at 6th-12th level. Why? If a 20th-level paladin is so useless, why not just concede the point and say, "Yes, the paladin's party is 20th level, so what?"

EDIT:

So the paladins get the pelor cleric to come (which is still outside the range of the original debate).

Why? In what possible way is "I assemble a posse that includes a cleric of my religion, the same as that of the destroyed temple" an unreasonable answer?

And don't just say "because the ickle paladin is running to Big Daddy Tier 1 to solve all his problems". You want to believe that paladins are useless, go right ahead. We're playing different games, you and I. In the game I play, paladins, fighters, even monks* can make a meaningful contribution in a party. If your answer to "what should the paladin do?" boils down to "get someone with a real class to fix it", then what exactly are you trying to convince us of?



* This isn't academic. I DM for a party of sorcerer, bard, warlock and monk.

Gnaeus
2010-08-13, 02:29 PM
Two points:
1. The fact that the Solar Spec-Ops Squad hasn't smacked down the wizard yet, is an indication that (in a reasonable setting with reasonable deities) the gods want the paladin's party to succeed and know that they can.

There is a joke about a man on a rooftop in a flood, who refuses to get on a boat or into a helicopter because he is waiting for his deity to save him.

Like the man on the roof, the paladin who refuses to go find the appropriate people for the job because he thinks the gods want his task to succeed is likely to be explaining his failure to send for help personally to his deity very soon.



You seem to have a degree of "forumite blindness" that says that anything not Tier 2 or better can't contribute in any meaningful way. Years of many players' experience disagrees with you.

Cant contribute in any meaningful way /= can beat tier 1 casters of higher level.



Simulacrum: "You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check."

You probably aren't familiar with the wizard. Spot isn't a paladin class skill.


Dominate: Simple Sense Motive. "You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities."

And if the target is mind-raped? Or just paid very well?


Disguises, magical or mundane: Spot, dispel, true seeing, or the very fact that you got close to the BBEG "wizard" with a weapon handy, without him teleporting away or killing you.

So the plan is to roll up on anything that looks like the wizard, and if it doesn't kill you you know it wasn't the wizard? Good.


Emmerask covered this. You seem to have interpreted "we have a cleric in the party" as "we're getting 20th-level clerics to solve all our problems for us".

You don't have a party at all. You have a gang of level 6-12 paladins. Emmerask suggested that they got an allied cleric to cast a few spells for you.


Rogue, rogue, rogue, Spot
Not a paladin x3. Not a paladin skill, and a very difficult skill check against a small invisible creature with a circumstance bonus for location.

Even if you had a rogue, there isn't any way for him to know the correct insertion point to teleport to. And the moment that he teleports in he sets off traps (like an alarm spell), and you fail.


(and a chance to kill the wizard's familiar

A chance to kill A wizard's familiar. His apprentice reports to him that his familiar just died and Target is gone, all work wasted.



and a paladin of Pelor and his Pelorite buddies vs. your undead and (most likely Evil) outsiders.

Who are multiple CR above him. The typical paladin 12 is going to have a really hard time with CR 16 outsiders, who are well within the wizard's ability to bind.


So on the one hand you say that the paladin could only be useful, even at 20th level, if no longer a paladin. On the other hand you continue to insist the party is stuck at 6th-12th level. Why? If a 20th-level paladin is so useless, why not just concede the point and say, "Yes, the paladin's party is 20th level, so what?"

If you leveled the paladin up to 20 he would be a meaningful threat to the wizard's minions. If you leveled the paladin up to 20 his GEAR would be a big enough threat to a wizard to make the wizard want to stage the fight on his own terms.



Why? In what possible way is "I assemble a posse that includes a cleric of my religion, the same as that of the destroyed temple" an unreasonable answer?

It isn't unreasonable. It just isn't the posed scenario, which involves a group of paladins level 6-12. If you want to assemble a full, balanced level 12 adventuring party with a rogue, a cleric and an arcane caster, you can crank your odds of success from impossible all the way up to highly unlikely. If you actually want to beat Mr. Wizard in his lair, continue to improve your odds by leveling up a few times. If you can't find him without him knowing you are there, prevent him from leaving, and prevent him from killing you all with a couple of spells, you have nothing. To do that you will need casters (or at least caster-like UMD-ers with lots of expendibles) who are at least close to his level.


And don't just say "because the ickle paladin is running to Big Daddy Tier 1 to solve all his problems". You want to believe that paladins are useless, go right ahead. We're playing different games, you and I. In the game I play, paladins, fighters, even monks* can make a meaningful contribution in a party. If your answer to "what should the paladin do?" boils down to "get someone with a real class to fix it", then what exactly are you trying to convince us of?

That once you reach level 20 in a tier 1 class, a 12th level muggle, or a party of 12th level muggles, is no threat to you.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 02:59 PM
Okay, first things first. The OP did not say, "You have a party of paladins of level 6-12." It posed the scenario of, "What should paladins of that level do if a batman wizard rocks up to the temple?" The first part of the answer is that they should take all reasonable steps to evacuate the temple, once they realise the threat. And then part two is that any one or more paladins that survive, living to fight another day, should assemble a balanced party of like-minded characters who will quest to bring down the wizard (gaining XP and levels in the process until directly confronting a 20th-level wizard is a tough but doable challenge).


There is a joke about a man on a rooftop in a flood, who refuses to get on a boat or into a helicopter because he is waiting for his deity to save him.

Like the man on the roof, the paladin who refuses to go find the appropriate people for the job because he thinks the gods want his task to succeed is likely to be explaining his failure to send for help personally to his deity very soon.

Paladin prays for divine intervention. Paladin goes looking for higher-level allies who can solve the problem. Paladin hasn't succeeded or else the whole thing would be moot. Paladin wonders why deity hasn't just called somebody else to do this. Paladin decides that until he sees that someone else more qualified is doing the job, he'd better get cracking.

This is the exact opposite of sitting on your roof waiting for your deity to come and solve the problem.

I maintain that this scenario can only be subjected to worthwhile analysis if we consider the paladin's party to be PCs in a campaign. And PCs very often take on jobs that some higher-level character could do better and probably should take an interest in. If typical assumptions about divine plans hold, then clearly the deities want the PCs to work at accomplishing something great.


You probably aren't familiar with the wizard. Spot isn't a paladin class skill.

He nuked your temple. You've met.

Your party can fill in on Spot, and you have good Wisdom.


And if the target is mind-raped? Or just paid very well?

I'm not familiar with the mind-rape rules (BoVD, right?), but surely they have a Sense Motive clause too? And "I'm doing this because I got paid" is certainly subject to Sense Motive.


So the plan is to roll up on anything that looks like the wizard, and if it doesn't kill you you know it wasn't the wizard? Good.

Hyperbole. The actual plan is more like making a few assays at the "wizard" whenever he shows up; dispelling, AMF, or just letting him approach and talking to him. If all of this goes far too easily, there's a very good chance it's not him.


Not a paladin x3. Not a paladin skill, and a very difficult skill check against a small invisible creature with a circumstance bonus for location.

See invisibility is pretty much required preparation for taking on a wizard.


Even if you had a rogue, there isn't any way for him to know the correct insertion point to teleport to. And the moment that he teleports in he sets off traps (like an alarm spell), and you fail.

So don't teleport in! There has to be another way. Why? Let me put it this way.

There are two possibilities that I can see. The wizard is just too powerful and unassailable. There's nothing the paladin can do except give aid and comfort to his victims. Two sub-possibilities: Some higher-level higher-tier party goes and smacks down the wizard. The question of what can the paladin do is moot. Nobody smacks down the wizard and you never have a chance of succeeding. You exist in a grimdark universe where being a paladin was probably not a wise move anyway. The wizard is not infallible, your gods want you to succeed, and you can and will find the exploitable weaknesses in his many, clever, but imperfect plans.


If you leveled the paladin up to 20 he would be a meaningful threat to the wizard's minions. If you leveled the paladin up to 20 his GEAR would be a big enough threat to a wizard to make the wizard want to stage the fight on his own terms.

Having 20th-level gear is part and parcel of being a 20th-level character. Don't try and divorce the power of the gear from the power of the character; you know that goes badly for Mr. Spellbook over there, the one burning money (and XP) on traps and expensive spells.

Tinydwarfman
2010-08-13, 03:01 PM
And don't just say "because the ickle paladin is running to Big Daddy Tier 1 to solve all his problems". You want to believe that paladins are useless, go right ahead. We're playing different games, you and I. In the game I play, paladins, fighters, even monks* can make a meaningful contribution in a party. If your answer to "what should the paladin do?" boils down to "get someone with a real class to fix it", then what exactly are you trying to convince us of?



* This isn't academic. I DM for a party of sorcerer, bard, warlock and monk.

You see, this is where you have some misconceptions. This is not a real game. In a real game, the players always have a good chance of succeeding in their mission. This is a scenario where a group of paladins fight an optimized wizard who can make himself undetectable (so many ways to do this, Mind Blank and persisted invisibility for 1), unreachable (woo, private dimensional fortress!), who doesn't die (Astral Projection woooo!), and is immune to damage (A few ways, I like the Beastland Ferocity + Delay Death combo).
In a real game, no sane GM would make the PCs fight an optimized level 20 wizard. Because the only real way to beat one is DM fiat or being a better optimized caster. If this scenario were put into a campaign, the wizard would not make full use of his abilities, and you would have to go around the world, destroying his leylines from which he draws his magic from, and retrieving an Annulus-type artifact to kill him with. In those scenarios, a party of tier 5's could definitely contribute. But this is not that scenario. Fighting an optimized level 20 wizard when you're low level is much like fighting a god. You don't actually do it, because both could easily kill and eat your souls for breakfast.

Gnaeus
2010-08-13, 03:16 PM
He nuked your temple. You've met.

If you were inside the temple at the time, you are dead. If you were able to see it, you probably only saw whatever he looked like through his spells. From a distance. That is a heck of a big difference from "familiar", in my opinion.



I'm not familiar with the mind-rape rules (BoVD, right?), but surely they have a Sense Motive clause too? And "I'm doing this because I got paid" is certainly subject to Sense Motive.

Sense motive only gives you a hunch that something is wrong.



Hyperbole. The actual plan is more like making a few assays at the "wizard" whenever he shows up; dispelling, AMF, or just letting him approach and talking to him. If all of this goes far too easily, there's a very good chance it's not him.

So you figure out it isn't him. Great.




So don't teleport in! There has to be another way. Why? Let me put it this way.

There are two possibilities that I can see. The wizard is just too powerful and unassailable. There's nothing the paladin can do except give aid and comfort to his victims. Two sub-possibilities: Some higher-level higher-tier party goes and smacks down the wizard. The question of what can the paladin do is moot. Nobody smacks down the wizard and you never have a chance of succeeding. You exist in a grimdark universe where being a paladin was probably not a wise move anyway. The wizard is not infallible, your gods want you to succeed, and you can and will find the exploitable weaknesses in his many, clever, but imperfect plans.

Of course you can only enter by teleport or plane shift. If it isn't in a pocket plane it is probably miles underground on a different continent. That is the POINT. It would actually be a lot harder than that, because the wizard has superhuman intellect and had months to plan defenses and a lot of incentive to make them good, and I lack all three.

This paragraph is essentially the same as you conceding the argument. If the wizard isn't being played in a hyper-intelligent fashion, he isn't a level 20 Batman Wizard. If he is being played in the manner in which he should be played, he is firmly in sub-possibility 1.



Having 20th-level gear is part and parcel of being a 20th-level character. Don't try and divorce the power of the gear from the power of the character; you know that goes badly for Mr. Spellbook over there, the one burning money (and XP) on traps and expensive spells.

But he is actually level 20 and you aren't.


Stuff....Fighting an optimized level 20 wizard when you're low level is much like fighting a god. You don't actually do it, because both could easily kill and eat your souls for breakfast.

Tinydwarfman is exactly correct.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 03:18 PM
You see, this is where you have some misconceptions.

I don't believe so, and I think it's a little unkind of you to dismiss my position in the debate as a "misconception".

I firmly believe that it is possible for a DM to run an intelligent BBEG with the powers of a well-optimised 20th-level wizard as part of a fun game. In fact I struggle to see how we can have this discussion without reference to how it would play out as an actual D&D game; such a thought experiment would be circular, as we would have no common set of assumptions to work from, and so would each naturally tend to build our conclusions on assumptions that support the kind of conclusion we want to reach.

So, taking it as a D&D campaign, yes, the PCs should be able to win. But not because the wizard plays sub-optimally! Many of the things that I see as integral to the setting, you and Gnaeus seem to see as externalities. For example, the PCs might "destroy leylines" as you say. Or more directly from the discussion, they might find a way to slip into the wizard's private demiplane uninvited thanks to the intervention of gods, celestials, or Astral Plane locals.

You can say that this is an externality, that it's not sticking to the rules on spells, items, attack rolls and so forth. I disagree. The wizard doesn't exist in a vacuum. He can't possibly have covered up all the chinks in his armour. There are countless thousands of little details already in place that have absolutely nothing to do with the rules; we can't just handwave them away by saying "the wizard thought of that and so all circumstances are in his favour".


This paragraph is essentially the same as you conceding the argument. If the wizard isn't being played in a hyper-intelligent fashion, he isn't a level 20 Batman Wizard. If he is being played in the manner in which he should be played, he is firmly in sub-possibility 1.

So batman wizards never exist in D&D, because no player can actually play hyper-intelligently enough to satisfy you? I do not accept that a DM or player could just handwave away details by saying "he's smart enough to have thought of that, even if I can't roleplay it because I'm not".

And I do not accept that being "hyper-intelligent" and a 20th-level full caster makes you immune to mistakes.


But he is actually level 20 and you aren't.

Please explain further, because this sounds like a condescending dig meaning that 20 levels of "not Tier 1" is not "actually level 20". Or that the wizard is somehow "actually level 20" because he's not reliant on gear. But a naked wizard deprived of his spellbook is a chump with d4 hit dice (and five emergency spells through Spell Mastery).

(Off to bed, look forward to the continuation. :smallsmile:)

Gnaeus
2010-08-13, 03:42 PM
I don't believe so, and I think it's a little unkind of you to dismiss my position in the debate as a "misconception".

I firmly believe that it is possible for a DM to run an intelligent BBEG with the powers of a well-optimised 20th-level wizard as part of a fun game.

I agree. He just can't make him an antagonist to a group of 12th level paladins. A higher level party with casters can do it.


In fact I struggle to see how we can have this discussion without reference to how it would play out as an actual D&D game; such a thought experiment would be circular, as we would have no common set of assumptions to work from, and so would each naturally tend to build our conclusions on assumptions that support the kind of conclusion we want to reach.

So, taking it as a D&D campaign, yes, the PCs should be able to win. But not because the wizard plays sub-optimally! Many of the things that I see as integral to the setting, you and Gnaeus seem to see as externalities. For example, the PCs might "destroy leylines" as you say. Or more directly from the discussion, they might find a way to slip into the wizard's private demiplane uninvited thanks to the intervention of gods, celestials, or Astral Plane locals.

Can a first level monk kill a tarrasque? Sure. I just replace the stat block for tarrasque with the stat block for cat. But if you come up to me and tell me how your first level monk killed the tarrasque, I will know that it wasn't done reasonably. If I lobotomize the wizard so you can win, it wasn't really a wizard 20.


You can say that this is an externality, that it's not sticking to the rules on spells, items, attack rolls and so forth. I disagree. The wizard doesn't exist in a vacuum. He can't possibly have covered up all the chinks in his armour. There are countless thousands of little details already in place that have absolutely nothing to do with the rules; we can't just handwave them away by saying "the wizard thought of that and so all circumstances are in his favour".

He can't cover all the chinks in his armor. Otherwise other caster 20s couldn't kill him. But he can easily cover all the chinks a 12th level paladin can exploit. You couldn't even come up with a way to get into his sanctum which was teleport access only with the teleport entry spot as a killzone.

Crasical
2010-08-13, 04:42 PM
... Man, I had a whole page of stuff written here to post about the whole shrinky-hat idea, but now I'm just sort of :smallannoyed: about the whole thread.

BULLET POINTS:

1. The shrunken hat trick is a clever trick, nothing more. Just build/buy a Colossal hat and shrink it. The colossal size is about 16x greater than medium insofar as the height weight scale goes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat), so it shrinks down to a normal, medium-sized hat. When it expands to colossal, its up to the DM to decide if it counts as terrain (a tent) or clothing (albiet something that is now impossible for the player to wear). If you believe it counts as terrain, your wizard now has total cover and whatever contingencies he has for 'My hat has been returned to massive size against my will!' go off, probably something to get him out of the damn hat and away from the antimagic field.

2. It seems to have plenty of counters, not the least of which is finding a haberdashier that will construct something that the Tarrasque can wear.

3. a quartet of level 12 paladins has no chance against a level 20 wizard. Gondor should call for aid, anyone who is friendly with you (and hopefully more powerful) should be called in to help. Being noble, upstanding, righteous types, you have plenty of people who will help you if necessary.

4. A question of 'ethics': You're fully justified in doing pretty much whatever necessary to bring this guy to justice. He burned down your temple, he is a slaver. He is very, very evil and very powerful. Smite first, feel bad about killing him in his sleep later.

potatocubed
2010-08-13, 04:54 PM
And I do not accept that being "hyper-intelligent" and a 20th-level full caster makes you immune to mistakes.

See, I think this is the crux of the disagreement. The Batman Wizard is immune to mistakes, because the Batman Wizard is not a real character in any meaningful sense. The Batman Wizard doesn't ever crave human contact, or leave a door open or an entrance unwarded because of a passing brainfart. He doesn't go to the pub or visit his family. He has no friends, or at least none that aren't mindraped into perfect loyalty. He is a theoretical construction of icy logic and arcane power.

Against that sort of enemy, your only hope is superior firepower - which paladins just don't have.

Against a practically-optimised wizard with a full quota of quirks and foibles... well, they're still basically going to get creamed.

They have slightly more hope, since they can use his foibles to draw him out or otherwise catch him off guard, but because they're paladins there's a pretty sharp limit on how much they can take advantage of him. (No poison, no seducing him and cutting his throat while he sleeps, no holding his family hostage, etc.)

EDIT:

2. It seems to have plenty of counters, not the least of which is finding a haberdashier that will construct something that the Tarrasque can wear.

This sounds like a suitable quest for low-level adventurers!

Boci
2010-08-13, 05:29 PM
They have slightly more hope, since they can use his foibles to draw him out or otherwise catch him off guard, but because they're paladins there's a pretty sharp limit on how much they can take advantage of him. (No poison, no seducing him and cutting his throat while he sleeps, no holding his family hostage, etc.)

Depends how attached he is to his paladin status. Its a common enough background story for PCs and NPCs alike.

Kantolin
2010-08-13, 05:32 PM
See, I think this is the crux of the disagreement. The Batman Wizard is immune to mistakes, because the Batman Wizard is not a real character in any meaningful sense. The Batman Wizard doesn't ever crave human contact, or leave a door open or an entrance unwarded because of a passing brainfart. He doesn't go to the pub or visit his family. He has no friends, or at least none that aren't mindraped into perfect loyalty. He is a theoretical construction of icy logic and arcane power.

This is totally not that.

I mean, this begins with 'one day, a wizard drops by'. He's not a simalucrum, he's not a dominated individual, he in fact dropped by. He talks to people wanting to initiate a trade, and /makes a show/ of people who are opposing him.

There are a lot of ways that could have gone wrong for him, doing it like that.

And then he did have some defenses. He realized 'huh, there may be anti-magic going on', set up a useful contingency, gave himself a defense against anti-magic. This results in the Paladins getting lucky or being more prepared (almost certainly with outside quest-like help), but it could happen. Somewhere amidst the contingencies, there may have been some gap in there.

This is not a perfect wizard. This is a wizard who has interests and wants, goes out and does things personally, a wizard who then relies on his magic to save him. He's immune to anti-magic fields, he has a contingency teleport if he's in trouble, he's spent the remaining 19 contingencies and all of his divinations watching Zabolen the other 20th level wizard who he's always leery of, that circle of Solars that has always been nosing in his business, and I dunno Boccob. But he's pretty sure he's fine - if some guy takes a potshot at him, he has enough defenses that he's pretty sure he'll be fine.

This means an attack which happens to usurp these defenses will stop the wizard.

This is a very reasonable 20th level wizard. He's big and threatening and if the Paladins stood on teh opposite end of the field and shouted 'Have at thee!' then this game's winner will be the 20th level wizard. And even after everything is said and done, this game's winner still might be the 20th level wizard - luck could then swing the other way, the wizard could then get out of the antimagic field (or whatever), nad then the paladins are sunk. Or maybe they do their master plan, successfully gank the wizard in an antimagic field, and then are horribly ripped apart by the wizard's constructs - but then the major threat is gone at least. Or maybe they dogpile the wizard and then run like blazes.

If the only believable way for a level 20 wizard to exist is to be completely perfect, then that setting is a curious one indeed.

Lord Raziere
2010-08-13, 05:47 PM
:smallbiggrin:

anti magic field is cast.

lead hat on wizard head becomes big.

wizard is inside the lead hat, lead hat now blocks the anti magic field from escaping the hat, trapping the wizard forever inside the anti magic field.

:smallbiggrin:

olentu
2010-08-13, 05:55 PM
This means an attack which happens to usurp these defenses will stop the wizard.

I think people are saying that sure this is true but how does this help the paladin.

true_shinken
2010-08-13, 07:06 PM
Please, people. We have a lot of paladins here.
So we also have a lot of pazuzu pazuzu pazuzu going on!

Hawriel
2010-08-13, 08:12 PM
Just read the OP. He sais there is a temple with clerics, and paladins. in a city. Of a LG god, who could be honored by a majority of the city and serounding lands at least.

Then an evil wizard walks in and asked them for permision to practise his evil trade. Slavery, necromancy and the like. IF they are asking the temple, then you can surmize that they are eather incharge or hold a great deal of political influence in the city.

The holey good guys say no a fight takes place. Yest the OP implies only one paladin fights the wizard and of corse he wins because wizards are marry sues no matter what bla bla bla.

I have to ask these questions.

why is only one paladin attacking this wizard? If this wizard is so evil, he is asking to start a slave trade, why only is only one paladin confronting him? Would not the temple of a LG god confront this powerfull evil being as a unified front? Level 20 or not when faced with a whole temples worth of clerics and paladins hes going down.

Whare is the cities leader? If the high priest of the LG temple is not the cities leader then would not the lord of the city step in? A powerful person not of his city resist such a thing? After all this powerful wizard attacks the temple of a god that that Lord most likly worships.

What about other wizards and merchants? This evil wizard is dissrupting the stability of trade. Maybe they deal in gems for magical perposess. Would they not stand against such a ruthless being? Again this wizard attacks and distroys a temple. Whoes to say they are not next?

The citizenry. Would not fallowers of the LG god not help the temple deffend itself? The baker accross the steet may not. However the city guard, and high ranking soldiers would not stand idly by wile the cultural, and religius center of their city is attacked?

What of the militia? Would not members of the militia not arm themselves form up and help in the defence of the temple?

You piss off a large city by attacking its temples you end up fighting an army. No if the wizard uses violence to get his way he will not live unless he flees. I dont car how high a level you are, or what class. That one person cannot win against that many peaple.

HamHam
2010-08-13, 09:37 PM
1. The shrunken hat trick is a clever trick, nothing more. Just build/buy a Colossal hat and shrink it. The colossal size is about 16x greater than medium insofar as the height weight scale goes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat), so it shrinks down to a normal, medium-sized hat.

Technically speaking, a hat of medium size would be as big as a person. So what you actually want to do is go from something of medium or large size, and shrink it down to like Diminutive.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-14, 12:39 AM
Frankly, assuming the Paladin's don't have access to a freeze-dried level 16+ cleric, I'd say their best bet is to do the noble thing.

Talk their differences out with the wizard, come to terms. Arrange the least bad situation possible and deal with the religious ramifications afterwards, at the ruins of their temple. They pissed off a wizard and put EVERYONE in their city at risk. Sure, the Wizard is doing things they don't agree with, but they've a duty to protect their people.

And Diplomacy is the only thing I can imagine them doing without help that really stands a chance of curbing the Wizards vengeful tendancies.

Gnaeus
2010-08-14, 06:54 AM
I do not accept that a DM or player could just handwave away details by saying "he's smart enough to have thought of that, even if I can't roleplay it because I'm not".

Actually, that is a very good way to play creatures that are vastly smarter than the DM. Some game systems that have a lot of super intelligent creatures (like Amber) actually recommend that method.


And I do not accept that being "hyper-intelligent" and a 20th-level full caster makes you immune to mistakes.

Certainly not. But at the very least he should have thought of any threat that the DM can think of, and made plans to deal with it. Counter-measures that would be relevant to the peers of a wizard 20 will be overwhelming to a 12th level party of non-casters.


Please explain further, because this sounds like a condescending dig meaning that 20 levels of "not Tier 1" is not "actually level 20".

In the scenario, he is level 20. Paladins are level 6-12. Presumably with WBL for 6-12s.


This is totally not that.

I mean, this begins with 'one day, a wizard drops by'. He's not a simalucrum, he's not a dominated individual, he in fact dropped by. He talks to people wanting to initiate a trade, and /makes a show/ of people who are opposing him.

And then he did have some defenses. He realized 'huh, there may be anti-magic going on', set up a useful contingency, gave himself a defense against anti-magic. This results in the Paladins getting lucky or being more prepared (almost certainly with outside quest-like help), but it could happen. Somewhere amidst the contingencies, there may have been some gap in there.

This means an attack which happens to usurp these defenses will stop the wizard.

This is a very reasonable 20th level wizard.

If the only believable way for a level 20 wizard to exist is to be completely perfect, then that setting is a curious one indeed.

This is defined as a batman wizard. That kind of wizard relies on allies and having dozens of tricks up his sleeve. When he showed up to negotiate in a town that had no reason to attack him he had presumably already done his divinations, and he knew that no one there was a threat to him.

Then he presumably went in with half a dozen cr 12-18 flunkies (most of which could solo a gang of paladins level 6-12) standing around invisibly, just in case. He was immune to damage (Beastland Ferocity+ Delay Death). He may actually have been invisible himself while an illusion of him negotiated under his mental direction. (and of course he had his normal contingencies and foresight in place). That is probably adequate preparation for a situation which the wizard does not regard as very dangerous. When he returns to town after the deaths of his minions he will be much more cautious.

Peregrine
2010-08-14, 10:00 AM
To answer posts out of order...


See, I think this is the crux of the disagreement. The Batman Wizard is immune to mistakes, because the Batman Wizard is not a real character in any meaningful sense. The Batman Wizard doesn't ever crave human contact, or leave a door open or an entrance unwarded because of a passing brainfart. He doesn't go to the pub or visit his family. He has no friends, or at least none that aren't mindraped into perfect loyalty. He is a theoretical construction of icy logic and arcane power.

That's funny. I'm sure I remember "batman wizard" being coined by some thread posted hereabouts that gave recommendations on how to play an effective wizard... :smalltongue:

"Batman" is not an exercise in Theoretical Optimisation. It is an approach, or even a philosophy, to using wizard class mechanics effectively. This in no way precludes a batman wizard (PC or NPC) having a real personality and a real life. I am totally in agreement with Kantolin on this one.

So you're probably right and this is the crux of the disagreement. :smallsmile:


They have slightly more hope, since they can use his foibles to draw him out or otherwise catch him off guard, but because they're paladins there's a pretty sharp limit on how much they can take advantage of him. (No poison, no seducing him and cutting his throat while he sleeps, no holding his family hostage, etc.)

So (laying aside the "morality of poison" debate) all the best tactics are non-Good, and anybody who acts Good (like paladins, who have to) is severely hobbled?

This is like a lot of those "What should the paladin do?" threads. And my answer in those is always, "There is a way the paladin can go that is both effective and Lawful Good."


I agree. He just can't make him an antagonist to a group of 12th level paladins. A higher level party with casters can do it.

Again, why aren't you letting "level up" be a part of the paladin's plan?


Can a first level monk kill a tarrasque? Sure. I just replace the stat block for tarrasque with the stat block for cat. But if you come up to me and tell me how your first level monk killed the tarrasque, I will know that it wasn't done reasonably. If I lobotomize the wizard so you can win, it wasn't really a wizard 20.

*facepalm* You and I both know that that's not really a tarrasque, and that this is nothing at all like what I meant. Heck, you haven't even answered my point; you've just said "IF wizard is lobotomised THEN you can win", with a strong implication of the inverse: "IF you can win THEN wizard is lobotomised" (which is not the same thing).


You couldn't even come up with a way to get into his sanctum which was teleport access only with the teleport entry spot as a killzone.

This reads to me as, "You couldn't even come up with a way to get into his sanctum that I said you couldn't get into." I took a third option, as the saying goes.


Actually, that is a very good way to play creatures that are vastly smarter than the DM. Some game systems that have a lot of super intelligent creatures (like Amber) actually recommend that method.

I think we have somewhat divergent opinions on what is "a very good way to play"...

Gnaeus
2010-08-14, 10:54 AM
*facepalm* You and I both know that that's not really a tarrasque, and that this is nothing at all like what I meant.

Just as what you are talking about isn't really a 20th level wizard.


Heck, you haven't even answered my point; you've just said "IF wizard is lobotomised THEN you can win", with a strong implication of the inverse: "IF you can win THEN wizard is lobotomised" (which is not the same thing).

It isn't the same thing. But both statements here are are equally true.

And I did answer your point, which boiled down to the PCs can beat the wizard because DMs intervene so that PCs can beat their enemies, or the world is "grimdark". Those PCs cannot beat that antagonist, without the DM gutting him first.

Kish
2010-08-14, 11:08 AM
"Batman" is not an exercise in Theoretical Optimisation.
Gnaeus' concept of "Batman" certainly seems to be. Goodness knows it doesn't belong anywhere near an actual game.

Peregrine
2010-08-14, 11:16 AM
Just as what you are talking about isn't really a 20th level wizard.

I'm talking about a character who, for all his 20 levels of wizard and magically enhanced intelligence, is still only human. (Or, erm, only elven, or dwarven, or strongheart halfling...) It sounds like what you're talking about is something that could never be roleplayed by anyone (much like Kish said), and so nobody "really" plays a 20th-level wizard, because no true Scotsman 20th-level wizard would ever make mistakes.


And I did answer your point, which boiled down to the PCs can beat the wizard because DMs intervene so that PCs can beat their enemies, or the world is "grimdark". Those PCs cannot beat that antagonist, without the DM gutting him first.

Your argument seems to be predicated on a spherical wizard in a vacuum -- and anything that is not a concrete part of the wizard's class features, like a personality, wants, attachments, mistakes, or an inability to prevent gods from helping their paladins slip into the wizard's pocket plane without teleporting through the front door, is "gutting the wizard".

Gnaeus
2010-08-14, 11:27 AM
I'm talking about a character who, for all his 20 levels of wizard and magically enhanced intelligence, is still only human. (Or, erm, only elven, or dwarven, or strongheart halfling...) It sounds like what you're talking about is something that could never be roleplayed by anyone (much like Kish said), and so nobody "really" plays a 20th-level wizard, because no true Scotsman 20th-level wizard would ever make mistakes.

No. He makes mistakes. They just aren't the same mistakes we would make. And they are likely to be so miniscule that a 12th level muggle cannot utilize, or even recognize them.


Your argument seems to be predicated on a spherical wizard in a vacuum -- and anything that is not a concrete part of the wizard's class features, like a personality, wants, attachments, or

He can certainly have all those. They will be screened through his security precautions. Somebody could take advantage of them. That somebody is NOT a gang of 12th level paladins.


an inability to prevent gods from helping their paladins slip into the wizard's pocket plane without teleporting through the front door, is "gutting the wizard".

Hey. You are right. Gods, solars, and epic casting clerics can challenge the wizard. Funnily enough, that was my entire point. The paladins are still irrelevant. Even if they got there they would be quickly noticed and the wizard would be gone. Then I guess the gods can send them to the next location. Eventually, that might work, but it isn't the paladins doing, it is the gods/solars/epic clerics who are beating that wizard.

Peregrine
2010-08-14, 11:44 AM
No. He makes mistakes. They just aren't the same mistakes we would make. And they are likely to be so miniscule that a 12th level muggle cannot utilize, or even recognize them.

Again with the "12th level" thing! What is it that you so object to about "step 3, level up"?


He can certainly have all those. They will be screened through his security precautions. Somebody could take advantage of them. That somebody is NOT a gang of 12th level paladins.

He "screens" his personality, his emotional attachments and his mistakes? :smallconfused:


Hey. You are right. Gods, solars, and epic casting clerics can challenge the wizard. Funnily enough, that was my entire point. The paladins are still irrelevant. Even if they got there they would be quickly noticed and the wizard would be gone. Then I guess the gods can send them to the next location. Eventually, that might work, but it isn't the paladins doing, it is the gods/solars/epic clerics who are beating that wizard.

You're missing my point -- overshooting it by a long shot. I suppose I saw it coming, though.

Correct me if I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to be arguing a two-level, black-and-white view of "how to get at the wizard". The wizard has defences that are totally impervious to anything less than "gods, solars and epic casting clerics". If a paladin got in there at all, it must have been with the aid of one of those, and so all credit goes to the god, solar or cleric. The wizard isn't impervious and is therefore "gutted" and "lobotomised". I'm arguing that there's something between these points. A scenario where the wizard is smart, prepared, and mechanically identical to your wizard, but where the party can exploit non-mechanical things. Like the nature of the multiverse lets them find a way to slip onto the wizard's pocket plane without going where he expects. Or the gods give them some aid that is not related to game mechanics: they do not dispel the wizard's wards, boost the PCs' attack or damage rolls, or give them uber magic items, but they do give them help that fits in the setting and gets around the non-mechanical defences the wizard will have.

On those non-mechanical things, you've handwaved every possibility by saying "he thought of that and prevented it". I'm saying "no he didn't" -- and I believe that this doesn't mean the wizard is "gutted" or "lobotomised". Not even an Int 30something wizard is able to think of and flawlessly prepare for everything.

Gnaeus
2010-08-14, 01:32 PM
Again with the "12th level" thing! What is it that you so object to about "step 3, level up"?

That it isn't part of the scenario. You have paladins level 6-12. You level them up to what? 7-13? 20-23? Some die. You replace them with things more useful in fighting wizards. You seem to have had at least a rogue and a cleric in previous posts, as well as the arcane archer. Yes, if you move the starting point far enough, like by adding casters, skillmonkies and leveling up to near him, suddenly you have a shot. The paladin 12s DONT. Tell you what, you redefine your wizard slaying party to what you want, let us know what it is, and then we will tell you if you have a chance.

For the record, my fairly optomized party of Chameleon, Full Caster, Mage Slayer/Trip Fighter, and Swift Hunter (with favored enemy Arcanist) is chasing a wizard who can cast 9th level spells. We have spent more than a year trying to locate his lair, and if we aren't at least 15-17th level when we do find him, I don't think we stand a chance.


He "screens" his personality, his emotional attachments and his mistakes? :smallconfused:

Yes. For example, if a head of state wants a cheap lay, he doesn't go to a brothel where he can be assassinated. He sends a flunky there. Who finds a suitable partner, pays it, and brings it back through security, after checking it for threats. A wizard 20 is like a head of state.

Is that a weakness? Sure. A high level assassin or caster could totally take advantage of that to get into his haven. An enemy caster could mindrape the flunkie into giving him access, or the knowledge that is almost as good as access, or deceive the flunky and guards with powerful magic. Maybe the deathtrap in the landing zone is a symbol of insanity, or a 500 hp acid damage trap, triggered by outsiders with permanent detect magic watching/scanning the landing point, but a caster could become immune to either one after he learns of it.

Any defenses will have weaknesses, but those aren't weaknesses that a paladin 12 has the ability to exploit, or even find.



Like the nature of the multiverse lets them find a way to slip onto the wizard's pocket plane without going where he expects.

Like the nature of the multiverse lets them locate an area that they can't locate by means at their disposal, and is only accessable by magic even to people who can planeshift or teleport? Maybe the multiverse will steal the wizard's spellbook while its at it.


Or the gods give them some aid that is not related to game mechanics: they do not dispel the wizard's wards, boost the PCs' attack or damage rolls, or give them uber magic items, but they do give them help that fits in the setting and gets around the non-mechanical defences the wizard will have.

So the gods beam your heroes into somewhere the heroes can't reach on their own. Heroes promptly set off traps or encounter minions alerting wizard, who either escapes, or sends overwhelming CR opponents to kill them, or BOTH. Your paladin 12s don't even have a way to FIND the wizard once they are in his lair. For that you need a caster, or at least a UMDer with a ton of cash.


On those non-mechanical things, you've handwaved every possibility by saying "he thought of that and prevented it". I'm saying "no he didn't" -- and I believe that this doesn't mean the wizard is "gutted" or "lobotomised". Not even an Int 30something wizard is able to think of and flawlessly prepare for everything.

He should certainly think of and flawlessly prepare for anything the DM can think of. That Int score on his character sheet is as much a part of his defenses as the Tarrasque's SR, AC and regeneration. Take it away and you no longer have a wizard 20.

Peregrine
2010-08-14, 02:05 PM
Barring something interesting and novel coming up, I think this will be my last post on this subject. I reckon that by the end of this post, I've said everything I have to say, as best I can. It's been stimulating debating with you, Gnaeus. :smallsmile:


That it isn't part of the scenario.

Then we disagree. I believe that "level up" is a perfectly valid answer within the scenario. So is "get a balanced party together" (and I still maintain that the scenario is not "party of paladins", but "what could paladins, generally, do?" -- hence why all my arguments have assumed one paladin). And that is vastly different from "get the epic clerics to handle it". Which, if an option, should be the paladin's first choice. Assuming it's not, the paladin goes with assembling a party and levelling up.


Yes, if you move the starting point far enough, like by adding casters, skillmonkies and leveling up to near him, suddenly you have a shot.

It's not moving the starting point... it's starting at the starting point and then going somewhere logical from there. You can't win a marathon standing around at the starting line, but running down the road isn't "moving the starting point".


Like the nature of the multiverse lets them locate an area that they can't locate by means at their disposal, and is only accessable by magic even to people who can planeshift or teleport? Maybe the multiverse will steal the wizard's spellbook while its at it.

Your "only accessable" critera are set by you, not the rules of the game. (Not in any supplement I have access to anyway; the genesis spell in the SRD makes a demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, meaning anyone can stroll in.)

Stealing the spellbook is an entirely different scenario, both within the rules (direct mechanical effects) and without (as it is absurd, deliberately no doubt).


He should certainly think of and flawlessly prepare for anything the DM can think of.

We disagree on what that high Int means. Think of, yes. Flawlessly prepare, no. The world isn't a chessboard with very specific and defined rules. (Anticipating others is as much an application of Wisdom as of Intelligence.) And I reckon even an Int 30something wizard couldn't solve chess (a real-life standing computation problem that shows no signs of being cracked any time soon). The world is much more complex.


That Int score on his character sheet is as much a part of his defenses as the Tarrasque's SR, AC and regeneration.

No. SR, AC and regeneration have very specific game effects. We can't really disagree on what they "mean" like we can with Intelligence.


Take it away and you no longer have a wizard 20.

Err, a wizard 20 doesn't have to have an Int higher than 19 to cast all his spells. An NPC human with the elite array ends up with Int 20; wishes or a tome, and a headband +6, puts him at 31. That's twelve points he can lose before he is "no longer... a wizard 20" in any meaningful sense. Take his super-Intelligence away, by damage, penalties, or nicking his headband, and-- hey, he's still a wizard 20.

Thank you and goodnight. :smallsmile:

Crasical
2010-08-14, 02:28 PM
Technically speaking, a hat of medium size would be as big as a person. So what you actually want to do is go from something of medium or large size, and shrink it down to like Diminutive.

Whoops, you are correct. My bad.

Gnaeus
2010-08-14, 02:49 PM
Then we disagree. I believe that "level up" is a perfectly valid answer within the scenario. So is "get a balanced party together" (and I still maintain that the scenario is not "party of paladins", but "what could paladins, generally, do?" -- hence why all my arguments have assumed one paladin). And that is vastly different from "get the epic clerics to handle it". Which, if an option, should be the paladin's first choice. Assuming it's not, the paladin goes with assembling a party and levelling up.

So you agree that your bunch of paladins is a total failure. Pick an actual group including higher tier and level characters and the wizard does become vulnerable.



Your "only accessable" critera are set by you, not the rules of the game. (Not in any supplement I have access to anyway; the genesis spell in the SRD makes a demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, meaning anyone can stroll in.)

Only open to magic locations are easy for a wizard 20. For example, your minions find you an enclosed cave somewhere with a couple of miles of solid rock between it and anything else. Or you completely surround your home on that genesis demiplane with a few hundred feet of solid steel with no mundane access. Magic items provide air and waste disposal. Trivial for someone with a little time, greater Planar Binding, Fabricate, Wall of Stone and Wish.



We disagree on what that high Int means. Think of, yes. Flawlessly prepare, no. The world isn't a chessboard with very specific and defined rules. (Anticipating others is as much an application of Wisdom as of Intelligence.) And I reckon even an Int 30something wizard couldn't solve chess (a real-life standing computation problem that shows no signs of being cracked any time soon). The world is much more complex.

Being much, much, much smarter than the smartest human who ever lived, he might not be able to solve chess (or he might, you never know), but if he cared enough to master the game (Say by spending a dozen or so of his 150+ skill points on it) he could certainly play on a level where no one who wasn't a top grandmaster would ever be able to discern his mistakes. Similarly, the holes in his defenses would be present and abusable.... by other people with superhuman intelligence and the power to back it up.



Err, a wizard 20 doesn't have to have an Int higher than 19 to cast all his spells.

So that particularly lame wizard 20 is only a little smarter than the DM, you, me, or any other normal human. Your point is? He should still block any attack the DM can think of.


An NPC human with the elite array ends up with Int 20; wishes or a tome, and a headband +6, puts him at 31. That's twelve points he can lose before he is "no longer... a wizard 20" in any meaningful sense. Take his super-Intelligence away, by damage, penalties, or nicking his headband, and-- hey, he's still a wizard 20.


Take away Big T's AC, SR and other defenses and he's still Big T. Actually doing that takes some work (and some Alips).

Peregrine
2010-08-14, 11:18 PM
So you agree that your bunch of paladins is a total failure. Pick an actual group including higher tier and level characters and the wizard does become vulnerable.

Not my bunch of paladins; never my bunch of paladins. I have said repeatedly that I read the scenario as a general "what could one or more paladins do?", rather than "what could a party of just paladins do?"

Balor01
2010-08-15, 05:32 AM
So, this:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3924/paladinshield.th.png (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/paladinshield.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

... is actually possible then? As long as a target has say, a shield between himself and emanation, it keeps ALL the magical benefits it has cast on himself?

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-15, 06:17 AM
Not a shield, only something that provides total cover and breaks line of effect, and I'm pretty sure even tower shields specifically don't count for this. It would have to be a mobile wall of some sort.

Terazul
2010-08-15, 07:22 AM
Not a shield, only something that provides total cover and breaks line of effect, and I'm pretty sure even tower shields specifically don't count for this. It would have to be a mobile wall of some sort.

That's... that's exactly what a tower shield does.


However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding.

If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-15, 07:34 AM
It's that part about not protecting you from targeted spells I was remembering, but not with exact detail. So it's kind of questionable. Technically the fact that it specifies targeted spells might indicate that AMF, as an emanation, would be blocked by the tower shield's total cover.

On the other hand, it says that a spellcaster can target the shield you're using, so for the purposes of spells, they have line of effect.

I suppose by a very strict interpretation of RAW it would probably work, since the tower shield description specifically says targeted spells, and AMF isn't targeted. I don't imagine most DM's would allow it, cause it doesn't really make sense (you'd have to perfectly cover yourself at all times without exposing yourself to the field at all) but technically it sounds like it works.