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Hirax
2010-08-12, 04:53 AM
Basically I want to make a shirt of heavy fortification to wear under full plate. Would I have to make it a +1 shirt of fortification? This doesn't necessarily apply to just fortification, I'm just generally curious if you can use this method to get around the high cost of super enchanted armors, by, say, wearing a +5 full plate, a +1 shirt of heavy fortification. While the character in question is basically just after heavy fortification at some point, I'm also generally curious if you can do this with armor abilities.

Psyx
2010-08-12, 04:55 AM
magical cloth armour? Wouldn't have an ACP, and you can stick 'twilight' on there, if arcane.

cupkeyk
2010-08-12, 04:59 AM
If you wear a shirt under a plate, only one of them will affect you since they occupy the same slot: Armor.

Hirax
2010-08-12, 05:03 AM
If you wear a shirt under a plate, only one of them will affect you since they occupy the same slot: Armor.

Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemsOnTheBody)

A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn.

* One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head
* One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes
* One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck
* One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso
* One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt)
* One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor)
* One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor)
* One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists
* One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands
* One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand)
* One pair of boots or shoes on the feet

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 05:16 AM
Okay then, let me express cupkeyk's point in another way.

You can only put armor enhancements (including special abilities) on your body-slot item.

There are heaps of DMs who will let you enhance clothing like it's armor (AC +0, ACP 0, ASF 0%), but slot-wise, it then has to take up your body slot, not your torso slot.

squishycube
2010-08-12, 05:21 AM
More generic version of statement posted by cupkeyk:
Smells like cheese, can't be done.
The part where it goes wrong in your request is this: "to get around the high cost of super enchanted armors". They are that expensive for a reason: balance. Trying to get around this should make any DM invoke the smite-stick.

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 05:24 AM
What if the person wants to wear nonmagical armour, but a magical shirt?

squishycube
2010-08-12, 05:30 AM
The 'slots' spoken of apply to magic items only. YMMV, depending on your DM.

Hirax
2010-08-12, 05:32 AM
Okay then, let me express cupkeyk's point in another way.

You can only put armor enhancements (including special abilities) on your body-slot item.

There are heaps of DMs who will let you enhance clothing like it's armor (AC +0, ACP 0, ASF 0%), but slot-wise, it then has to take up your body slot, not your torso slot.

Gotcha, that makes perfect sense.

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 05:34 AM
4E sort of allows this for shields. While bracers take up your "shield slot" you can have a nonmagical shield, and magical bracers, and benefit from the AC and Ref Defense bonus of the nonmagical shield, as well as the magical effects of the bracers.

Hirax
2010-08-12, 05:49 AM
To draw more attention to the consideration that brought on this question, is there a magic item or other easy-ish way to get heavy fortification? It wouldn't be worth much trouble, but it'd be good to know for future reference.

Escheton
2010-08-12, 07:00 AM
There is always the dastana, chainar aina(or whatever it's called), chain shirt combo from oriental adventures. The dastana take the bracerslot but give +1 armor that stacks with the other 2 in the set. the chanar aina goes over the chain shirt and gives another +1 armorbonus. Either could be enhanced with +1 heavy fort or +1 spell resist.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-12, 08:04 AM
There's also an optional rule to allow you to put armor special abilities onto Bracers of Armor, which doesn't interfere with wearing actual armor (although the armor bonuses won't stack). It's from a 3.0 book, though, so your DM might not allow it. But seriously, it's not broken or anything.

Hirax
2010-08-12, 08:21 AM
There's also an optional rule to allow you to put armor special abilities onto Bracers of Armor, which doesn't interfere with wearing actual armor (although the armor bonuses won't stack). It's from a 3.0 book, though, so your DM might not allow it. But seriously, it's not broken or anything.

Cool, that'll probably be permissible. Do you happen to recall the book?

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-12, 08:40 AM
Cool, that'll probably be permissible. Do you happen to recall the book?

Took a little while to find, but here it is: Arms and Equipment Guide p.130 (in the sidebar).

I shoulda checked there first instead of in all the class books.

Diarmuid
2010-08-12, 08:50 AM
Cool, that'll probably be permissible. Do you happen to recall the book?

It's the exact same thing as trying to this with a cloth shirt. It's an old 3.0 rule that doesnt exist in 3.5 for the exact same reason you cant do this with your shirt.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-12, 09:22 AM
Okay then, let me express cupkeyk's point in another way.

You can only put armor enhancements (including special abilities) on your body-slot item.
There are actually two body slots which can include magical armor bonuses: Body and Arms. The latter is how you get Bracers of Armor. See Magic Item Compendium page 234 for details.

It's the exact same thing as trying to this with a cloth shirt. It's an old 3.0 rule that doesnt exist in 3.5 for the exact same reason you cant do this with your shirt.
You're wrong on two counts here.

The "old 3.0 rule" still exists because the 3.5 rules say so. Check page 4 of your 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide:
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
Shirts use the Torso slot, which is ineligible for armor bonuses. But as I noted above, the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium agrees with the 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide that armor enhancements may be added in both Body and Arms slot items. So that means magic armor (Body slot), magic robes such as Robes of the Archmagi (Body slot), and magic bracers (Bracers of Armor, Bracers of Retaliation) (Arms slot).

Escheton
2010-08-12, 09:26 AM
It also says you can put bonuses where you want as long as you simply pay extra.

tyckspoon
2010-08-12, 09:29 AM
To draw more attention to the consideration that brought on this question, is there a magic item or other easy-ish way to get heavy fortification? It wouldn't be worth much trouble, but it'd be good to know for future reference.

The Draconomicon has the Gemstone of Fortification in the magic-items-for-dragons section. It requires a Limited Wish or similar to use on squishy humanoids because it has to be embedded in the skin, but it does provide Fortification decoupled from both the item slot system and from armor special abilities.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 09:31 AM
There are actually two body slots which can include magical armor bonuses: Body and Arms. The latter is how you get Bracers of Armor. See Magic Item Compendium page 234 for details.

The MIC says that armor bonuses to AC can be added to the Arms slot. It doesn't say that enhancement bonuses to armor can be added to the arms slot; that'd be silly, because nothing worn there has a non-magical armor bonus to AC -- there's nothing to enhance! And while as far as I know, the rules are silent on it, I'm making a very simple extrapolation to say that you likewise can't put other armor enhancements on the Arms slot, nor anything but the Body slot.

The alternative way to preserve balance would be to say that when only the best armor bonus applies, only its matching armor special abilities apply too. So you could have heavy fortification bracers of armor, but if you then don +5 full plate, you only get the armor bonus -- and the special abilities -- of one or the other. Depends on how good your bracers are.

Cyrion
2010-08-12, 09:46 AM
But to muddy the waters- The various Shirt of .... items in the MIC grant DR which are quite arguably DR. Are those not effective under your armor or your robe?

Diarmuid
2010-08-12, 09:49 AM
Shirt is a valid magic item slot, those shirts are not granting armor bonuses, nor are they being enchanted with armor enhancements.

The shirt of DR X/Y is simply a wondrous item that provides a benefit.

Escheton
2010-08-12, 09:53 AM
You could just have bracer of armor +1 heavy fort and a +5 plate and only get the armor bonus from the plate but get heavy fort from the bracers.

ericgrau
2010-08-12, 09:58 AM
...I'm just generally curious if you can use this method to get around the high cost of super enchanted armors...
The magic item creation guidelines are designed to help DMS and PCs make items that are the same cost/value as existing items, so no. This is why they are guidelines and not rules, to get DM approval and to avoid workarounds.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 10:09 AM
You could just have bracer of armor +1 heavy fort and a +5 plate and only get the armor bonus from the plate but get heavy fort from the bracers.

You could, if your DM allowed it. If I were your DM, I wouldn't. Because that's quite clearly leaps and bounds cheaper than putting all that on the full plate itself, and I see no downside. Hence, it's unbalanced.

+5 heavy fortification full plate: 101,650gp
+1 heavy fortification bracers of armor and +5 full plate: 36,000gp + 26,650gp = 62,650gp
Savings: 39,000gp

You don't even lose the chance to have something else in your Arms slot. Even if your DM makes you pay 150% of the cheaper component, you've got (39,000gp / 150%) = 26,000gp to play with. (Even if your DM says you can't enhance those bracers further, heavy fortification is going to be competitive with any other bracers out there, I'd wager.)

Escheton
2010-08-12, 10:17 AM
You don't even lose the chance to have something else in your Arms slot. Even if your DM makes you pay 150% of the cheaper component, you've got (39,000gp / 150%) = 26,000gp to play with. (Even if your DM says you can't enhance those bracers further, heavy fortification is going to be competitive with any other bracers out there, I'd wager.)

Uhm, those bracers would take the arm slot. So no strongarm bracers or whatever. Now you could add that on for an extra price, but you still give up something. And seeing one usually adds on about 5 different bracers to make 1, just like boots. It will cost you in the long run. And seeing you will take light, moderate then heavy fort, the long run is what you are going for.
Also, bracers are usually easyer to sunder...
And what undead using BBEG sends forth his minnion to just be fodder? Not mine, I let them actually hurt my players.


There is also an amulet that gives fortification though I am not sure what the source is on that one.

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 10:24 AM
Uhm, those bracers would take the arm slot. So no strongarm bracers or whatever. Now you could add that on for an extra price...

That's what I said! :smallwink:


...but you still give up something.

Which is? As far as I can tell, the only downside is making other bracer qualities more expensive. Which should be more than offset by the amount you saved on your full plate -- until your bracers get so magicked-up that you might as well just put heavy fortification on your full plate anyway.

Until that happens, you've gotten away with cheap boosts by abusing slots.

Hirax
2010-08-12, 10:46 AM
The Draconomicon has the Gemstone of Fortification in the magic-items-for-dragons section. It requires a Limited Wish or similar to use on squishy humanoids because it has to be embedded in the skin, but it does provide Fortification decoupled from both the item slot system and from armor special abilities.

Cleverly hidden right under my nose in one of my favorite books, thanks :)

A cast of limited wish is 2,410, plus the gemstone of greater fortification is 35,000. So that's only slightly more expensive than a pair of +1 bracers of greater fort, but the gem doesn't take up a body slot, and is unambiguously legal.

As a general question to everyone saying what I was trying to do is sketchy, why? Greater fortification is good, but it's not stupendous, especially with the price tag. Just about every armor special ability (probably all of them if you look hard) has a wondrous item equivalent. Yes, I was trying to save money by splitting multiple abilities into multiple magic items. Doesn't everyone do that to some extent, to avoid paying the premium for second abilities on one item? Rule muddiness aside I don't think my original plan was at all unreasonable, especially since the cost of a legal solution has turned out to be similar.

Cheese means overpowered right? I'm still picking up some of the lingo after a couple years away from D&D

Thefurmonger
2010-08-12, 10:52 AM
I have to jump on the "Not a chance would I let this crap fly in my game" bus.

Seriously the DMG give guidlines for this stuff for a reason. At least TO ME this is clearly a cheesetastic workaround to save money.

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 11:49 AM
You could, if your DM allowed it. If I were your DM, I wouldn't. Because that's quite clearly leaps and bounds cheaper than putting all that on the full plate itself, and I see no downside. Hence, it's unbalanced.

+5 heavy fortification full plate: 101,650gp
+1 heavy fortification bracers of armor and +5 full plate: 36,000gp + 26,650gp = 62,650gp
Savings: 39,000gp

The Arms & Equipment Guide (page 130) states that armour special abilities can be added to bracers of armour, to a maximum of +13 (+8 bracers with an upgrade valued at +5). And gives prices.

So, there is definitely precedent.

Diarmuid
2010-08-12, 11:55 AM
A&E is 3.0

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 12:02 PM
True- but 3.0 books can be used in 3.5.

Thefurmonger
2010-08-12, 12:41 PM
Guys,

Really 3.0 vs 3.5, is AEG still ok to use?

Who cares? the point isnt CAN you.

YES 3.0 is 3.5 compatable
YES AEG is 3.0 and was not called out that its no longer good.
YES AEG says you can do it. I can't see anyone saying thats not true.

Most people that are saying no are not saying that by 3.0 RAW you can't do it, they are saying that you are trying to get around item pricing and should have a book thrown at you for it.

there are MANY things you can do by RAW that you should not do, this is not even a blip on the "Cheese-O-Meter" when you look at stuff like Pun-Pun and the Diplomancer.

In MY OPPINION the bracers of armor thing was put in to wizards and other "No Armor" people could have the cool armor add ons.

Again CAN you do it by 3.0 Raw? Yep you sure can
Would I let it fly in MY game? Not a chance in hell

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 12:50 PM
The Arms & Equipment Guide (page 130) states that armour special abilities can be added to bracers of armour, to a maximum of +13 (+8 bracers with an upgrade valued at +5). And gives prices.

So, there is definitely precedent.

The fundamental question is not, "Can you put these things on your bracers?" Maybe you can, maybe you can't. Maybe A&EG is allowed, maybe it isn't. It's DM's choice, and I personally could be convinced either way. Come to think of it, I think the monk in my game is already doing (or planning to do) this, with silent moves or something.

Anyway. The important question is, "Can you stack these things on your bracers with your regular armour?" Or in the exact words of the OP, "Can you 'use this method to get around the high cost of super enchanted armors'?"

No, because you're getting around the cost of having good stuff.

Keld Denar
2010-08-12, 01:10 PM
Again CAN you do it by 3.0 Raw? Yep you sure can
Would I let it fly in MY game? Not a chance in hell

We play very different games. My opinion, from a CharOp point of view, is that this is not even CLOSE to being over powered. Magic item slots are VERY valuable. Thats why there is a 150% premium to add non-basic abilities to various items. Its called opportunity cost. Sure, you get it for a few thousand gold cheaper than adding it to your full plate, but you are also locking down your bracer slot. There are LOTS of good bracers, and giving them all up for this boon IS an opportunity cost.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean its unbalanced. It is balanced. You pay a cost (spend a magic item slot), you get a boon (you save a few thousand GP on getting effect X). Thats how D&D works. You spend a feat, you get some bonus for that feat. Various costs are worth more than others, and various rewards are stronger than others. Power Attack is a stronger feat than Skill Focus in nearly every situation. Getting Fortification on your bracers is strong, but keep you from having Greatreach Bracers, Bracers of Opportunity, Quickstrike Bracers, Deathstrike Bracers, Strongarm Bracers, Armbands of Might, and a few other really good pieces of wristwear. Now, granted, you can stack a couple of those on top of your Bracers of Armor, but now you are losing the advantage you gained by saving all of that money moving Fortification onto your bracers. Again...opportunity cost. When you sit back and REALLY analyse it, its really not as strong as it looks on paper.

Trust me, if this was the strongest thing one of my players brought to the table, I'd rejoice. Instead there are bigger fish to fry like Polymorph, Planar Binding, and DMM: Persist.

tyckspoon
2010-08-12, 01:14 PM
No, because you're getting around the cost of having good stuff.

The other question is "Is the 'correct' cost of this ability appropriate?" And.. I'd argue that no, it isn't, and most of the +5 equivalent abilities are overpriced if you have to pay for them normally. Even the 'cheap' options for Heavy Fortification don't fit comfortably into standard wealth until level 12 or 13, and even at those relatively high levels they're still a major item for the character, consisting of 20-30% of the value of his stuff. That's opportunity cost; all the 'trickery' achieved was making it achievable, not cheap, so the character can get this protection before the wealth chart completely explodes at 16+.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about using the Magic Vestments/Greater Magic Weapon trick to get the same goal?

Peregrine
2010-08-12, 01:36 PM
The other question is "Is the 'correct' cost of this ability appropriate?"

It is indeed. And it's the question I was intentionally steering clear of. That the bracers + armour trick is unbalanced against armour alone, is unarguable given the numbers. Whether it's acceptable within the wider morass of game balance... I didn't dare open that can of worms. But now you've gone and done it. :smalltongue:

To fit inside WBL at all, the full plate alone can't come before 13th level, while the bracers and full plate combo can be achieved at 11th level. If we say that this protection shouldn't take more than, say, a third of WBL, then the difference is 17th level vs. 15th level. A quarter of WBL seems to be a more common guideline; that makes it 18th vs. 17th.

First, let's look at it financially. The difference remains 39,000gp, or 26,000gp before the 150% markup if you want to use your bracers for something else too. That's the treasure from a 16th or 17th level encounter; even at 20th level it's more than one PC's share of a standard encounter. That still strikes me as unbalanced.

Secondly, level-wise. I really have no idea how to call this one. What level is too soon to have access to heavy fortification? Too soon for heavy fortification and however many thousands of gp worth of other stuff that you can afford with this trick? I don't know. You're probably right. It's probably not unbalanced. But it's just so darn good that nobody would ever not do it, not until they got to such a high level that they had to keep their bracers and armour commensurate because both are packing about five different abilities.

(Keld Denar, that's the sort of thing I think you were talking about, and I already looked at it in my previous post. Yes, sooner or later, you're better off with armour stuff on armour to free up your bracers for bracer stuff. That doesn't invalidate concerns over getting the armour stuff cheaper, and thus sooner, by spreading it across slots. I've really analysed it. :smallsmile:)

Cirrhosis
2010-08-12, 01:46 PM
Are you against using shields? Fortification is available as a shield enhancement, and with improved buckler defense, you could use a +1 buckler of heavy fortification with a weapon in your off-hand while retaining the shield bonus to armor class. Or just use a one-handed weapon. Either way, you get around questionable placement of armor enchantments on non-armor items and save the money on extremely high armor enchantment costs using 3.5 RAW.

If you don't want to or can't use a shield, you could, for an additional +2 to the enhancement cost, create a +1 animated heavy shield of heavy fortification as a +8 enhancement bonus equivalent, costing 64,000 gp, market price, plus the cost of the masterwork heavy shield.

Keld Denar
2010-08-12, 02:57 PM
(Keld Denar, that's the sort of thing I think you were talking about, and I already looked at it in my previous post. Yes, sooner or later, you're better off with armour stuff on armour to free up your bracers for bracer stuff. That doesn't invalidate concerns over getting the armour stuff cheaper, and thus sooner, by spreading it across slots. I've really analysed it. :smallsmile:)

I bet you are one of the people who feel that the body slot afinity rules in the MIC are overpowered too, since they don't have the 50% markup to stack +Str onto your Belt of Battle, or +Con on your Amulet of Natural Armor. Body slots are FREAKIN PRECIOUS. Even more so than feats. The problem with most magic items is not that they are bad, but that they take up body slots that are manditory for certain archtypes. If you are in melee combat, you NEED Con, which was previously only available in the neck slot (or in a VERY limited form from the belt, as a Belt of Dwarvenkind or Belt of Magnificance). That ment that you could NEVER wear any neck other than the +Con one. No Amulet of Natural Armor, no Amulet of Mighty Fists, no Periept of Wisdom (yet another way monks got SHAFTED on release). Thats not even including a handful of other cool necks.

The devs realized how precious body slots were, and when they published MIC, they made rules to account for this by allowing you to add affinity stats to certain body slots with no markup. This freed up a lot of characters to take cool and flavorful magic items, while still getting the valuable stats they need to compete with level appropriate encounters.

Body slots ARE very valuable, and while there aren't a ton of great bracers, there are enough good bracers to make this a tough decision. You still only have 8 magic item slots (not including weapon/shield and psychoactive skin), and using one of them for Fortification is a worthwhile expendature, but by NO means outside of what is accomplishable by either spending that money on a different item, or spending that body slot on a different item.

Darrin
2010-08-12, 03:43 PM
There are actually two body slots which can include magical armor bonuses: Body and Arms.

Three, actually, if you know where to dig. You can get armor bonus/enhancements on the torso slot if you use a Harness of Armor (Lost Empires of Faerun p. 155). They're a little more expensive (essentially x1.5 bracers of armor cost), but use the torso/vest slot.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-12, 04:55 PM
You can get armor bonus/enhancements on the torso slot if you use a Harness of Armor (Lost Empires of Faerun p. 155). They're a little more expensive (essentially x1.5 bracers of armor cost), but use the torso/vest slot.
Uh, you do realize that this sort of thing is available in any body slot if you're willing to pay the standard x1.5 price for "uncustomary space limitation"? The Harness of Armor differs from other such items only in that it might be available in a shop without seeking out a wondrous item crafter.

Marnath
2010-08-12, 05:02 PM
Three, actually, if you know where to dig. You can get armor bonus/enhancements on the torso slot if you use a Harness of Armor (Lost Empires of Faerun p. 155). They're a little more expensive (essentially x1.5 bracers of armor cost), but use the torso/vest slot.

Little gems like that make me wish i had the faerun books. :smallsmile:
I would definately let armor enhancements be put on that, or bracers of armor. Heck, you can even take one of the non-armor bracers using MiC and put armor onto it, so doing the reverse seems fine.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-12, 08:04 PM
Seems like this is a pretty touchy subject for some people.... :smallconfused:

Darrin
2010-08-12, 10:11 PM
Uh, you do realize that this sort of thing is available in any body slot if you're willing to pay the standard x1.5 price for "uncustomary space limitation"? The Harness of Armor differs from other such items only in that it might be available in a shop without seeking out a wondrous item crafter.

I thought the whole point of the OP was that armor enhancements (such as fortification) can only be put on body-slot items. The Harness of Armor does indeed allow him to create a +1 shirt of fortification.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-12, 10:27 PM
I thought the whole point of the OP was that armor enhancements (such as fortification) can only be put on body-slot items. The Harness of Armor does indeed allow him to create a +1 shirt of fortification.
I figured we were pretty well done with that point, because

It's been a 3.x rule ever since Arms and Equipment Guide came out that you can add armor enhancements in Arms slot items.
Fortification is independent of armor anyway.
All that's left is the cost issue.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 12:25 AM
I bet you are one of the people who feel that the body slot afinity rules in the MIC are overpowered too, since they don't have the 50% markup to stack +Str onto your Belt of Battle, or +Con on your Amulet of Natural Armor.

Nope, sorry, I made your bookie happy on this one. :smallsmile:

In fact I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion from my post... I was saying that even if your DM makes you pay 150% for putting additional stuff on your bracers of armor, contrary to the MIC, you're getting a fantastic deal. And let me reiterate that I'm not against using bracers of armor as armour for the purposes of adding heavy fortification to them. I'm against getting heavy fortification from bracers of armor while getting AC from the body slot.


Body slots are FREAKIN PRECIOUS.

Yes, they are. And that's why I'm wary of anything that reduces their scarcity, which is what this thread is about -- offloading magic abilities from the Body slot to another slot. It makes that PC so much better than someone who stuck with the standard rules and had to make a hard decision.

It seems to me we're arguing at cross purposes from similar premises.
Keld Denar: Body slots are precious because there are so few, so putting heavy fortification on the Arms slot is a big trade-off against other Arm items.
Peregrine: Body slots are precious because it takes a lot of gold to pile more abilities into each one, so splitting AC and heavy fortification between the Arms and Body slots is a cheesy way to save money.

(Correct me if I've misrepresented you.)

Hirax
2010-08-13, 01:06 AM
I'm against getting heavy fortification from bracers of armor while getting AC from the body slot.

If I had boots of springing and striding with +2 dex on them, then put on gloves of +4 dex, am I right in assuming you would only allow one of the items to function at all? I find that kinda strange, or even stranger if you would allow the gloves and boots to overlap, but not the bracers and armor.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 01:16 AM
If I had boots of springing and striding with +2 dex on them, then put on gloves of +4 dex, am I right in assuming you would only allow one of the items to function at all? I find that kinda strange, or even stranger if you would allow the gloves and boots to overlap, but not the bracers and armor.

No. Heavy fortification is an armour property that requires the armour to be at least +1 AC enhancement first. And in order to prevent people from doing what looks like cheesy slot abuse to me, I'm seizing on that rule to say that you have to actually be getting the AC bonus from an item to benefit from other armour properties.

Boots of striding and springing don't have to be +2 Dex before adding their other properties. Quite the opposite, in fact; ability boosts (unlike heavy fortification) are "extra abilities" available for a standardised price to any group using the MIC.

Aran Banks
2010-08-13, 01:24 AM
The only reason you shouldn't have Heavy Fort is because it gives immunity to crits and rogues. Which is bothersome, since rogues are an ideal archtype. You might as well be giving antimagic suits if you're doing Heavy Fort...

BUT, if you really want Heavy Fort, it shouldn't matter where the item is. The magic item rules shouldn't decide whether or not you get Heavy Fort from your bracers or the gold tooth that replaces your molar.

Hirax
2010-08-13, 01:41 AM
cheesy slot abuse

I'll make one last stab, I can't get my head around why anyone would think that. The case in the OP is not overpowered for how much I would be paying, as demonstrated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9128125&postcount=28). For the theoretical occasion where you can't find a wondrous item to duplicate an armor ability (exceedingly rare), I'm flummoxed that this workaround could be called abusive or cheesy, since a comparable wondrous item probably would have a similar cost if it existed. Even if it amounts to homebrewing/houseruling, is it really so unreasonable? Inelegant? Sure. Abusive or cheesy? No.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-13, 02:32 AM
Heavy fortification is an armour property that requires the armour to be at least +1 AC enhancement first.
Your argument isn't defensible from this point forward. Heavy Fortification doesn't require armor of any sort; that's merely one way this property can be obtained. Skip the armor, get a Gemstone of Fortification, and pay an NPC spellcaster the standard rate for the spell needed to have the thing permanently implanted in your body.

Seriously, you're adding tolls on a winding road when there's a faster, more direct route to the same destination.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 03:57 AM
I'm flummoxed that this workaround could be called abusive or cheesy, since a comparable wondrous item probably would have a similar cost if it existed.

The question is not, "Would it be reasonable, in the grand scheme of things, to give this power to this character for this price?" Or rather, that's only one of two possible questions. The other is, "Would that be an option that's far and away better than the default, core method of gaining this power, to the point where nobody would ever do it the old way?"

Both of these are definitions of "unbalanced". Of course, something that obsoletes core rules without being overpowered (because the obsoleted rules were underpowered) is hardly new; it's just better avoided if possible. It's also the only way to objectively gauge balance, so that's what I've been going with.

(And a splatbook magic item meant for dragons, while legal according to the rules cited so far in this thread, doesn't sound like the most straightforward "this exists, therefore any PC can get it, on bracers if they like" example ever tendered.)


Seriously, you're adding tolls on a winding road when there's a faster, more direct route to the same destination.

No, I'm pointing out the existing tolls on the original road and saying I don't like the idea of the bypass someone wants to build... when a splatroad has already been built by Wizards of the Coast. :smalltongue:

Cirrhosis
2010-08-13, 01:11 PM
Seriously though...a perfectly legal in core +1 buckler of heavy fortification straps to the arm. How are bracers of armor +1 with heavy fortification, for which the AC bonus they grant does not stack with the armor they are wearing, imbalanced when the afore mentioned shield's AC bonus does stack with armor?

The shield even costs less than the bracers if you're using the non-standard slot affinity price increase. And can be animated to require no slot at all. I think you're worrying too much about potential abuses due to questionable rules when the RAW offer easy and not-even-a-little-bit-questionable ways to accomplish a possibly superior method of obtaining the desired enhancement.

Edit: I've actually used an item like this in a game before. I used the DMG's RAW custom item creation system.

+1 Heavy Fortification Heavy Mithral Shield:
37,020 gp

Thefurmonger
2010-08-13, 01:41 PM
I find it kind of funny that none of us are saying that this does not work, just that in our oppinion in our games we would not let it fly.

And yet people seem to be all up in arms about it "AARGHHhhh, none may disagree with me!!! I will not rest untill all feel the same as I do!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!"

Seriously guys, Everyone agrees that by RAW it works, is it so hard to beleive that not all of us feel its balanced?

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 01:59 PM
Seriously though...a perfectly legal in core +1 buckler of heavy fortification straps to the arm. How are bracers of armor +1 with heavy fortification, for which the AC bonus they grant does not stack with the armor they are wearing, imbalanced when the afore mentioned shield's AC bonus does stack with armor?

You know what? I forgot about shields (and somehow overlooked your earlier post pointing them out). In my defence, it would seem the OP did too.

My points still hold water if you're trying to use bracers to save money when your armour and shield are already enhanced to Celestia and back, but basically, I'm conceding this one.

And don't let anyone ever tell you that internet debates don't change anyone's mind. :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2010-08-13, 02:22 PM
If some properties can't be found on anything less than Major magical armour- and Major magical armour can't be anything less than +3, maybe the same could apply to bracers.

If you can't get Heavy Fortification on +1 armour- maybe you can't get Heavy Fortification on +1 bracers, either?


+3 bracers, like +3 armour, are 9000 gp- this might be a good minimum for Bracers to get Major properties.

Think of it as "the item simply can't hold that much magic unless it's +3 or better"

Actually, Augment Crystals work a similar way- you can't put a greater Augment crystal in anything less than +3 armour (for armour crystals) or +3 weapon (for weapon crystals).

Keld Denar
2010-08-13, 02:34 PM
And yet people seem to be all up in arms about it "AARGHHhhh, none may disagree with me!!! I will not rest untill all feel the same as I do!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!"

You were saying?
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Fortification is also accessable through a few non-magic item means. Wizards and Droods get it via casting all 4 Heart of X spells, which costs them 4 out of what...20 spell slots by ECL9? And lasts nearly all day? AND gives various life-saving circumstancial bonuses on demand? Anything that gives 20%+ concealent also grants immunity to sneak attack, and crits aren't something that come up often enough to justify that kind of cash flow.

In short, Fortification looks better on paper than it is in a game, is WAY over priced for the benefits it gives, and therefore published work-arounds be it Gem, Bracers, Buckler, or whatever, are justified and balanced.

Peregrine
2010-08-13, 03:30 PM
You were saying?
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

o_O Coincidentally, my wife just quoted that comic at me (in relation to the "Paladin vs Batman Wizard" thread, not this one). Not coincidentally, I'm going to bed.

Hirax
2010-08-13, 05:54 PM
is it so hard to beleive that not all of us feel its balanced?

Yes, I still find it stupefying.


You know what? I forgot about shields (and somehow overlooked your earlier post pointing them out). In my defence, it would seem the OP did too.:

Nope, already using a shield. Both shield and armor have ghost touch (speaking of overpriced...), which are unfortunately necessary for this character.


You were saying?
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png


Classic. :smallsmile:

Cirrhosis
2010-08-17, 12:32 PM
Do you already use armor/shield crystals? Ghost touch on the shield could be replaced far more efficiently with a greater crystal of screening, which imposes a -10 penalty to incoming incorporeal touch attacks.

Though I suppose, for the record, that would stack with any bonuses to AC you have from your ghost touch armor. Still, it's worth a look as it would free up the enchantment slot for heavy fortification. The shield would need to be at least +3 to use the greater version though.