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Tharck
2010-08-12, 10:20 AM
First time poster long time reader. First I must say that reading this forum has helped a lot in clarifying 3.5 for my group and I. It's also helped me locate possible campaign ruining combinations of classes and feats and manage them before a character was made.

My question is on reach and i've read the Rules Compendium and Rules of The Game on this and still the question remains for me.

All I need answered is: Attack of Opportunity Y/N:

If a large sized creature with a 10ft reach is trying to attack an opponent 2 spaces away, and that opponent has Soft Cover from an ally of his between the large creature and himself does the medium creature provoke an attack of opp when he moves, casts a spell, drinks a potion ect: ?

If the answer is no: Does this include a Huge creature under the same circumstances, or a Garg, or a Colossal?

If this has been discussed before, I missed it.

Yora
2010-08-12, 10:27 AM
In other words? Does Soft Cover also make Attacks of Opportunity impossible?

Take a look at the description of Soft Cover:

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.
Soft cover only works against ranged attacks, so the creature with reach ignores it when making melee attacks.

ericgrau
2010-08-12, 10:29 AM
About 17,000 things say they grant an attack of opportunity... unless the creature has cover. I know b/c in my sig rule cheat sheets I had to write it 17,000 times.

Vangor
2010-08-12, 10:29 AM
Soft Cover does not prevent AoO.

ericgrau
2010-08-12, 10:30 AM
Except against things that say they cause an attack of opportunity unless you have cover, which is everything that causes an attack of opportunity.

Tharck
2010-08-12, 10:35 AM
So against a reach weapon soft cover will prevent an AoO, but against a creature with a natural reach then no. Correct?

ericgrau
2010-08-12, 10:36 AM
In both cases the cover prevents the attack of opportunity.

Ah here it is:


Cover and Attacks of Opportunity
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Now I remember the reason I wrote this 17,000 times. Because it's not everywhere, it's only in one spot and that's in the cover rules. And I thought that that was the most unnoticeable thing in history, and wanted to make sure every time someone used my cheat sheets they didn't have to remember nor flip to page X to get ALL the relevant rules.

Tharck
2010-08-12, 10:40 AM
In both cases the cover prevents the attack of opportunity.

Ah here it is:

Now I remember the reason I wrote this 17,000 times. Because it's not everywhere, it's only in one spot and that's in the cover rules. And I thought that that was the most unnoticeable thing in history, and wanted to make sure every time someone used my cheat sheets they didn't have to remember nor flip to page X to get ALL the relevant rules.

True but this is why I have the question. Soft cover specifically states "Ranged Attacks" and weapons with "reach" are considered ranged attacks if further than adjacent. But it's not precisely clear on Larger creatures with reach or it is clear and im missing it.

ericgrau
2010-08-12, 10:41 AM
That rule from the SRD does not distinguish. Are you talking about some kind of rules compendium update that changes the rule?

Person_Man
2010-08-12, 10:41 AM
Strait from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm):



Cover

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Cover and Attacks of Opportunity

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Big Creatures and Cover

Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.

So:

Guy
PC1
PC2

Guy can't make an AoO on PC 2 with his reach weapon, because PC1 provides cover.


BigGuy
PC1
PC2

BigGuy can make an AoO on PC2 with his 10 ft of reach, because he can trace a line from the right edge of his base to PC2 without going through PC1.


BigGuy
PC1PC2
PC3

BigGuy can't make an AoO on PC 3 with his 10 ft of reach, because PC1 and PC 2 provide cover.

If you were fighting ColossalGuy, he could make an AoO on the PC in back unless the width of his entire base was blocked by PCs (or other cover). By RAW, height doesn't matter. A DM might house rule otherwise, but it would be a house rule.

In fact, height has little impact on the game except for Jumping rules.
As far as I know, by RAW it doesn't matter how tall a creature is. If the line of effect goes through a square that offers cover

Vangor
2010-08-12, 10:48 AM
Except the being between the large creature and the character only provides Soft Cover which only concerns ranged attacks.

Tharck
2010-08-12, 10:49 AM
Except the being between the large creature and the character only provides Soft Cover which only concerns ranged attacks.

True, but it's considered a Ranged Attack because he's trying to attack someone who isn't adjacent to him.

Yora
2010-08-12, 10:50 AM
True but this is why I have the question. Soft cover specifically states "Ranged Attacks" and weapons with "reach" are considered ranged attacks if further than adjacent. But it's not precisely clear on Larger creatures with reach or it is clear and im missing it.
No, attacks made with reach are not ranged attacks.

Tharck
2010-08-12, 10:52 AM
No, attacks made with reach are not ranged attacks.


"When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks."

So apparently this includes creatures with natural reach as well. That's my current understanding, I just wanted to see if there was a rule somewhere that contradicted that.

*As well as finding a clarification on reach attacks concerning AoOs.

Yora
2010-08-12, 10:55 AM
Where did you get that line from? I've never seen that before.

Tharck
2010-08-12, 10:59 AM
[QUOTE=Person_Man;9128088]Strait from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm):


As for ranged attacks though, you choose a corner of your square that trace a line to ALL corners of your target's square and if ANY line passes through a space with a creature they have cover?

If so then even if the large creature was

PC1
PC2
Lrg Lrg

He would not be able to since a line passes through a space occupied by PC2. Would be in that example the bottom left space.

Tharck
2010-08-12, 11:00 AM
No, attacks made with reach are not ranged attacks.

Read Person Man's post on the topic, a few posts up. It's from the PHB and SRD.

Yora
2010-08-12, 11:05 AM
Okay, in that case soft cover applies to the attack.

Vangor
2010-08-12, 11:07 AM
So apparently this includes creatures with natural reach as well.

Not a presumption I would make as reach can attack anywhere within reach whereas a reach weapon cannot (except specific weapon abilities), so they are distinct.

For the actual discussion, the problem is you need Soft Cover to be treated as Cover by a reach weapon for the purposes of treating the reach weapon as a ranged attack for Soft Cover to apply to negate the AoO, except Cover negates AoO so this would seem redundant. I would approach Soft Cover as being completely independent of Cover in most ways since Soft Cover notes explicitly what bonuses and in what situations.

Plenty of rules are left not fully clarified, however, but this seems a logical enough result of Soft Cover and the reach as ranged rules, so I change my mind and say negates AoO.

Tharck
2010-08-12, 11:13 AM
Not a presumption I would make as reach can attack anywhere within reach whereas a reach weapon cannot (except specific weapon abilities), so they are distinct.

For the actual discussion, the problem is you need Soft Cover to be treated as Cover by a reach weapon for the purposes of treating the reach weapon as a ranged attack for Soft Cover to apply to negate the AoO, except Cover negates AoO so this would seem redundant. I would approach Soft Cover as being completely independent of Cover in most ways.

So you would say that you would rule Soft Cover does not prevent attacks of opportunity from natural reach and/or reach weapons?

Aroka
2010-08-12, 05:38 PM
Looks to me like soft cover would prevent an AoO whether it's natural reach or a reach weapon; but a larger than Medium creature has a better chance of getting around the cover (i.e. drawing the line from one of his corners to one of the opponent's without the cover getting in the way).

This has to be one of the most obscure things in 3.5 combat rules.

Marnath
2010-08-12, 05:41 PM
From what you guys have linked, it looks like natural reach wouldn't be stopped by soft cover.

Aroka
2010-08-12, 05:53 PM
From what you guys have linked, it looks like natural reach wouldn't be stopped by soft cover.

They are. Nothing says natural reach is an exception.

It's just that larger creatures get a different result when determining if there's cover.

A
B
C

A has a longspear and can't AoO C, because C has soft cover from B.

AA
AA
B
C

A is an Ogre (10 ft./10 ft.), and can AoO C, because C doesn't have soft cover from B, because A can "reach around" B from his lower right corner to C's right corners without the line crossing B's space.

AAA.
AAA.
AAA.
1234
...C.

A is Huge (15 ft./15 ft.) and cannot AoO C, because C has soft cover from 1, 2, 3, and 4.

ericgrau
2010-08-12, 07:15 PM
Ok, so reach determines cover the same way ranged attacks do. I would still like to know where the new rule is that cover doesn't protect against attacks of opportunity from melee attacks. B/c the SRD seems to say cover stops AoOs for all attacks.

Tharck
2010-08-13, 09:50 AM
Ok, so reach determines cover the same way ranged attacks do. I would still like to know where the new rule is that cover doesn't protect against attacks of opportunity from melee attacks. B/c the SRD seems to say cover stops AoOs for all attacks.

This whole topic is about how cover prevents AoO's...

We're discussing Soft Cover and getting around it with melee.

- Thank you guys for answering my question and clarifying the rules. I'll continue as I have been then since it's the way i've been doing it.

Again, thanks.