Belkar's Intelligence

[Damon_Caskey]

I've noticed perusing the forums there is a huge (and IMO incorrect) assumption about Belkar's Intelligence score.

Many posters accept and state as fact that he has a truly abysmal Intelligence score, or at best a mild penalty. Problem with that is (as can clearly be seen in the geekery thread), no technical evidence has been given one way or another.

That only leaves story evidence. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen anything to note him of having anything below average intelligence, and in in some cases arguably a bonus.

Yes he is highly distracted, and has a battering ram mentality. He'd rather act then think. He also tends to leave a singular piece out of the plans he bothers making. But that said, he also demonstrates very quick wits, a vocabulary easily matching Roy's, provides loquacious exposition on many occasions, and when he chooses to is capable of concocting plans worthy of Elan's mother. His psychological ploy against Miko is the most obvious example. True, it had a fatal flaw, but so far that can be said of every other plan in the comic.

These traits aren't one shot OOC moments either, they are seen throughout the comic to be ingrained in his character as much harvesting kidneys. Given that we know his Charisma and Wisdom both suck, where do people think his mental acuity comes from?

Millage may vary of course, but I would submit Mr. Bitterleaf's intelligence to fall around 10-12, most likely 11. The foolish mistakes he makes are the result of his psychotic personality combined with low Wisdom/Charisma more then a lack of straight up intellect.

Just a random thought. Do with it as you may. :smallsmile:

DC

[licoot]

I'm sure I remember V saying he was stupid. Also its not a good idea to only look at it from a D&D perspective, someone like Belkar in real life would have a bad Intelligence

[Bobbis]

To be perfectly honest, I think Belkar is above average int, horrendous wis.

[NerfTW]

I'd go with low wisdom, average intelligence. He doesn't think things through or think about the consequences of his actions, but he doesn't seem to be stupid in any way.

V's insults really shouldn't be taken as proof of anything.

[Setra]

The general assumption I've seen is that his Int is average or above average, but he has a bad wisdom score.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't really see any convincing evidence that his Intelligence is either above or below average. How I think Belkar's stats went: He rolled two considerably high stats (Str and Dex), one slightly above average (Con; no evidence), one average (Int), one rather low (Cha), and one abysmally low (Wis).

[Damon_Caskey]

I'd go with low wisdom, average intelligence. He doesn't think things through or think about the consequences of his actions, but he doesn't seem to be stupid in any way.

V's insults really shouldn't be taken as proof of anything.

This is exactly how I see it. V's insults are meaningless, as she/he has proven the emotional goggles are a judgmental impairment. That and V believing nearly everyone to be far below his/herself with regards to intelligence anyway.

Low intelligence scores in OOTS are made very obvious by a character's dialog and actions, not the exposition of others. Belkar has been shown to have no such weakness. Simple minded and shortsighted? Most certainly. Stupid? Not even close.


Also its not a good idea to only look at it from a D&D perspective, someone like Belkar in real life would have a bad Intelligence

Who said I was? At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm afraid my thinking is, like Rich's writing, a bit more nuanced then you're assuming. I'm using both D&D and RL as they apply to the topic at hand.

In RL, many highly intelligent people do very foolish things given different situations, and sometimes more often then not... in D&D those various quirks are precisely what the other mental scores try to portray (assuming that the scores reflect the personality, and not the personality being crammed into the scores).

DC

[factotum]

I'm sure I remember V saying he was stupid.

V is a very proud member of a class whose defining trait is intelligence--as far as he's concerned, everyone else in the world is stupid, not just Belkar. He was actually quite put out that the Mind Fl--sorry, squid thingy saw Roy as a more appetising meal than him!

[Spiryt]

Also its not a good idea to only look at it from a D&D perspective, someone like Belkar in real life would have a bad Intelligence

Hmmm, why you think so?

Really, there were quite a bit of strips where Belkar was really first one to catch something... especially if it actually managed to interest him.

I would think he has good 14ish Int, for what it's worth and 7-8 ish wisdom, in scale of 3.5 it gives decent idea of his cranium abilities.

[Trixie]

Actually, Belkar's pretty brilliant, in murderous way. He outsmarted both Miko and V, after all.

I wouldn't be surprised even with INT 16, coupled with WIS 9 giving him low attention span :smallwink:

[137beth]

a vocabulary easily matching Roy's

No, he doesn't, he confuses a cartographer with a cart of gophers.

[shiram]

No, he doesn't, he confuses a cartographer with a cart of gophers.

That could be his bad wisdom on a listen check!

[Boogastreehouse]

Listen Carefully: We want to track the chimera.

Right.

You're a ranger.

Right.

That's it.

I don't get it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html)

Granted this was an early strip...

[Trixie]

No, he doesn't, he confuses a cartographer with a cart of gophers.

And? Next strip, Durkon and shopkeeper make similar mistakes.


Granted this was an early strip...

Strip #3, Belkar owns V's knowledge of the game, especially considering they talked about Wizard SQs.

All the strip you linked proves that he wanted to play with Roy for a bit, as he begins tracking in it out of his own volition.

[Damon_Caskey]

No, he doesn't, he confuses a cartographer with a cart of gophers.

He also uses words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html) that I have no doubt half the audience here went and looked up. This is just an example off the top of my head. There are others.

Granted, I'm not as generous as some others in this thread. 14-16 is borderline genius in human terms, and as said before I see him as just a touch above average. I speculated 10-12 in my first post, but after thinking about it a bit more I'll revise to 13; just enough for the more tricky combat feats Belkar probably craves and plenty adequate to explain his wit/dialog/cunning.

DC

[Barlen]

No, he doesn't, he confuses a cartographer with a cart of gophers.


That was likely him just messing with Roy. Part of his pretend character growth.

[Orzel]

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. Belkar has no problem with this. His issue is that his Wisdom is too low to obtain all the info. His Int is good or average but his Wisdom limits it.

If the last half of the message is burned off, your solutions will neglect important aspects.

[Red XIV]

I'm sure I remember V saying he was stupid. Also its not a good idea to only look at it from a D&D perspective, someone like Belkar in real life would have a bad Intelligence
As I recall, V was talking about Belkar's abysmal Wisdom score, which is undeniably an accurate assessment. But low Wisdom need not mean low Intelligence.

[ThePhantasm]

Even philosophically speaking, intelligence and wisdom are two different things. Intelligence is *what* you know, and Belkar knows a lot. Wisdom has to do more with discernment, maturity, and experience, which Belkar doesn't have a lot of.

[The MunchKING]

As I recall, V was talking about Belkar's abysmal Wisdom score, which is undeniably an accurate assessment. But low Wisdom need not mean low Intelligence.

V also hypothasizes that "The Halfling", whether she meant Belkar specifically or was using it as anthropoligists use it to describe whole groups, merely had a proto-brain as was incapable of anything besides hate and lust.

While that statement has been proven false, that is a valid example of accusing him of stupidity.

[imp_fireball]

Wisdom is instinctual knowledge. It is the knowledge we learned as cave man to survive and reason.

Intelligence later on was developed to categorize all this knowledge into proofs.

Belkar is great at stating proofs I'd say, but terrible at 'common sense' (instinctive knowledge).

Also, V's ascertations are those of annoyance, not instinctual knowledge - there is also no written proof of 'stupidity' that can be ascertained by observing someone's actions. There's the instinctive knowledge that the person is dumb, which V ascertains.

People with low wisdom scores are typically dumb (dumb isn't a definitive word with definitive meaning; it's actually slang, so it can be used to label many traits of the human condition) too.

For example, a man who took a doctorate in literature - when insulted because of it (He spent thousands on a degree in something that will probably not land him a job unless the employer has equal faith in bland credentials rather then actual experience as he), he tries to reassert that literature is a science (reality check: not even close). His area of expertise is literature but he isn't great with definitions and he didn't think to acknowledge that he isn't great with definitions. This man has a very low wisdom score.
-----


V also hypothasizes that "The Halfling", whether she meant Belkar specifically or was using it as anthropoligists use it to describe whole groups, merely had a proto-brain as was incapable of anything besides hate and lust.


Singular/plural, I'm pretty sure V ain't a racist. :smallamused:
-----

Other examples of Belkar's wisdom:

- Belkar has only a grasp of his emotions, most of the time
- He doesn't put himself in other people's shoes and tends to assume things
- He doesn't think about how his actions might affect other people - or it may be that he does (after all, a child is typically taught this). It's that he doesn't care, because he's CE, plain and simple.

[The MunchKING]

Singular/plural, I'm pretty sure V ain't a racist. :smallamused:

I remember a lot of people came up with that when that strip came out.

besides, it would be insulting all halflings equally, thus it would be speciest. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

[imp_fireball]

I remember a lot of people came up with that when that strip came out.

besides, it would be insulting all halflings equally, thus it would be speciest. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

There's no such word as speciest. :smallsigh:


Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Quoting SRD, it's 'learns and retains memory.' or some such.


I don't really see any convincing evidence that his Intelligence is either above or below average. How I think Belkar's stats went: He rolled two considerably high stats (Str and Dex), one slightly above average (Con; no evidence), one average (Int), one rather low (Cha), and one abysmally low (Wis).

His charisma is at least 11 - otherwise he wouldn't get away with being so rash all the time. People would call him out more, and he'd be making a lot more cold blooded kills (consider the restaurant scene; he doesn't actually commit murders in front of the group or the law either unless it's part of a mission that Roy pulls the team into). He's a bit of a showman without ranks in perform (acting). That takes charisma.

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure V ain't a racist. :smallamused:
...Really?

[imp_fireball]

...Really?

Oh right, elf. Nevermind.


Intelligence is *what* you know, and Belkar knows a lot.

Intelligence is your ability to know. If you have high learning and memory capacity, then you typically know a lot. Unless you are a lazy bastard. But then, you wouldn't be an adventurer if you were lazy.

If intelligence were what you knew, it would be called 'contained memory' not intelligence.

[The MunchKING]

There's no such word as speciest. :smallsigh:

What would you call somebody who discriminates against a whole species and NOT just a race??

[tassaron]

There's no such word as speciest. :smallsigh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism ?

[Detrinex]

It's loose gravel. His intelligence does not even have a number.

[rewinn]

No, he doesn't, he confuses a cartographer with a cart of gophers.

That's jsut "creative hearing" that explains more about Belkar's personality than his intelligence. He doesn't know what a cartographer is because he invested in cooking rather than tracking and (I warrant) mapmaking, so he took that strange string of syllables and fashioned it into a structurally correct phrase, however absurd.

Belkar's used to Roy asking him to do strange things anyway, like not killing stuff, so why not a cart of furry critters?

Likewise, "sextant/sex taint": more evidence that Belkar has learned zero about mapping & navigation but is clever enough to come up with a plausible (for him) meaning for the syllables.

[imp_fireball]

It's loose gravel. His intelligence does not even have a number.

So his mind is pure entropy?

Go read through a psychology text once - it'll take maybe a week or so if you keep at it. Then come back to this thread and know that no human in the history of existence in the real world has ever had a mind of pure entropy.

Halflings are demihumans... hence.


He doesn't know what a cartographer is because he invested in cooking rather than tracking and (I warrant) mapmaking, so he took that strange string of syllables and fashioned it into a structurally correct phrase, however absurd.


Belkar isn't nearly as stupid as you guys make him out to be.

If he were that stupid, he would have been drooling and feral and Roy might have slain him on the spot, thinking he was some possessed halfling (gollum?), no different from an animal with rabies.

[kyoryu]

Intelligence: How can I do this?
Wisdom: Should I do this?

[Gorgondantess]

Well, okay, yeah, Belkar has abysmal wisdom, above average intelligence.
But his charisma? Really, people think he has low charisma? I'd peg it at about 15. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html)
I mean, come on, that's style that would make Elan envious.

[Alge'n]

Roy says about Belkar in 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) "He's too strong and clever -in his own brain-damaged way- to be held prisoner by any jail i've ever seen"

Belkar is very intelligent but he has no common sense whatsoever and lives in his own world with his own rules, kinda like Calvin in Calvin & Hobbes. He's both stupid and incredibly clever depending on the point of view.

[Boogastreehouse]

It's loose gravel. His intelligence does not even have a number.


So his mind is pure entropy?

Go read through a psychology text once - it'll take maybe a week or so if you keep at it. Then come back to this thread and know that no human in the history of existence in the real world has ever had a mind of pure entropy.

Halflings are demihumans... hence.



Belkar isn't nearly as stupid as you guys make him out to be.

If he were that stupid, he would have been drooling and feral and Roy might have slain him on the spot, thinking he was some possessed halfling (gollum?), no different from an animal with rabies.

Oh my gosh, dude, he was making a joke.

There are times when Rich writes Belkar (and Elan) as abysmally stupid. He does this when it will make for a good joke. They aren't always played that way because the too-droolingly-stupid-to-live-joke gets old really quickly (which is why I find "Family Guy" so appallingly unfunny).

[super dark33]

well, belkar knows things, but has hard time understanding them, he is able to solve riddles, but he is stupid.
and elan. he knows tings, and able to think on cunning plans he is quite smart but he is acting childish, which is not a sign for low int (maybe wis).
therefore: they both got brain

[Orzel]

Think of Belkar's brain like a digital camera.


His Wisdom is the lens. The Lens is warped and scratched. Information coming in is out of focus and missing bits of it. When Belkar thinks, he's missing important bits of info.

His Intelligence is the memory card and features of the camera. This bare works and has a hand full of special features.

His charisma is the output and video screen. The screen locks up on certain pics and forces you to look at them.The ports are all broken. You have to take out the memory in order to use the info in the right way. Belkar isn't shy, he can display his thought. But no one like his thoughts and he doesn't make an effort to make anyone like them.

[super dark33]

low cha may be one of the following:
1.shy
2.doesnt know when to shut up
3.ugly
4.unable to impress/befriend outer people

[DemLep]

The V comment mentioned is in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) and is in the 8th panel (First one in the Third row). And is to his wisdom.

Belkar is stated to be intelligent just lacking in wisdom. As for his Charisma I think that other have shown at least one comic, and there are others, that show he has an average if not above average charisma score.

I'd like to point out that all the main character, though probably not the same level anymore, are above level 13 at least. Which means they have gotten to boost stats at least three times.
I believe belkar to have high str/dex, 14-18; average to above average con, 10-14, above average int, 14-16, low wisdom, 6-9 (it could not be lower than 6 for the Owl's Wisdom Scroll to have worked.); above average cha, 12-14.

[hamishspence]

There's a comment from V about Belkar's "mental acuity" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html

And V revised that opinion of it downwards here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html

Roy refers to Belkar as "clever, in his own brain-damaged way" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

[Anteros]

He also uses words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html) that I have no doubt half the audience here went and looked up. This is just an example off the top of my head. There are others.

Granted, I'm not as generous as some others in this thread. 14-16 is borderline genius in human terms, and as said before I see him as just a touch above average. I speculated 10-12 in my first post, but after thinking about it a bit more I'll revise to 13; just enough for the more tricky combat feats Belkar probably craves and plenty adequate to explain his wit/dialog/cunning.

DC

I assume you are talking about "diaphanous"? I really doubt that half of the people here had to look that word up. Especially given that he was clearly talking about someone with transparent wings at the time of the statement.

Besides, knowing one random "big word" is hardly proof of intelligence.

[Kish]

Belkar is stated to be intelligent just lacking in wisdom.

No.

...He probably is, I just object on principle to claims that things have "been stated" that haven't been stated in the comic or by Rich.

As for his Charisma I think that other have shown at least one comic, and there are others, that show he has an average if not above average charisma score.

Hardly. Also, Vaarsuvius said something about "all the characters with any Charisma" being absent when those present were Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Belkar; and when Belkar was looking for the "least popular person here," the name of the strip was, "Actually, that's probably you."


I'd like to point out that all the main character, though probably not the same level anymore, are above level 13 at least. Which means they have gotten to boost stats at least three times.

Which means they have gotten +1 to one stat at least three times. You think Belkar put that in a mental ability score, even once?

[Zeofar]

Belkar's intelligence score is fine. Using Vaarsuvius's insults as examples of someone's actual character is like running an insult generator and saying that it is magic when something actually fits. Vaarsuvius has called most of the other characters in the party stupid; its criteria for intelligence is knowledge of arkane sekrets that hold together the fabric of the universe, along with a caster level equal to or greater than his/her. Besides, like most "smart" people, its derisive comments are usually vast exaggerations to emphasize the vast gap between his/her abilities and anyone else's.

It has been established as a trend than Belkar may genuinely have a great difficulty understanding the spoken word (especially grammatically ambiguous sentences), basic common sense, and, more recently, homophones. All these would fall under wisdom; he CAN understand concepts, but he cannot always choose which one fits in relation to the context. That, and he just deliberately "mishears" things when it allows him to cause trouble. In his own areas of expertise, when he wants to, he can easily understand and figure out how to do many things.

"Clever, in his own brain-damaged way" is hardly a clinical (or general) definition of being generally stupid; it refers to the fact that he is continually unable or unwilling to consider all aspects of a situation or how they all relate to each other. Again, this is wisdom.

[Saph]

Belkar's actually fairly clever, as demonstrated by his ability to use effective battle tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html) and come up with plans on the fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html). He just has no interest in applying his intelligence to anything that doesn't involve killing things, and has a truly abysmal Wisdom score.

I'd put his Int at 12-14 and his Wisdom at 4-6. Charisma is harder, but I'd say it's above average - he's got a lot of presence, as demonstrated by his fan club.

Yes, I know about the Owl's Wisdom thing, and I don't buy it - no way does Belkar has a Wisdom as high as 9. In OotS, Rules as Written comes a distant second to Rule of Funny.

[imp_fireball]

Intelligence: How can I do this?
Wisdom: Should I do this?

Intelligence: Is there anything I can remember that will help with how I can do this? Otherwise, I'm stumped.

Wisdom: Well it's pretty obvious that this is what you have to do. I've never even looked at this before, but it reminds of <insert other time>.

The wise guy can perceive better what needs to be done. The intelligent man will remember some other method that he has observed before, but won't take into affect nitty gritty details that only the wise can perceive. In constrast, the wise guy is not as great at absorbing information presented to him (thus there's no perception required) as the intelligent man.

Make sense?


and his Wisdom at 4-6

8 wisdom reflects more the 'doesn't grasp' quite as quickly. At 4-6, he'd be making simple mistakes that will land him trouble nearly every day. 4-6 sounds more like Elan's score. :P


Vaarsuvius has called most of the other characters in the party stupid

V is the jerk bookie of the party. AKA the callous nerd. Or whatever TV tropes might call it.

In high school terminology, he might also be a 'preppie' (always prepared for everything), though recently he has become a little more frantic and a little less organized in his lifestyle.


and when Belkar was looking for the "least popular person here," the name of the strip was, "Actually, that's probably you."


Charisma isn't a direct popularity measure. It doesn't help if you've been friends with somebody for a long enough time for them to realize you are a massive jerk. Charisma helps with short term contact with strangers, that's about it. Once you get to know somebody more, you'll realize their true nature and their charisma might wear off on you.

Also, +1 charisma is hardly anything to brag about in D&D terms.

Durkon is very noble -

[Saph]

8 wisdom reflects more the 'doesn't grasp' quite as quickly. At 4-6, he'd be making simple mistakes that will land him trouble nearly every day.

Like, say, murdering a bunch of people in a bar fight and then getting surprised at being thrown in prison? :smallwink:

[Kish]

Charisma isn't a direct popularity measure. It doesn't help if you've been friends with somebody for a long enough time for them to realize you are a massive jerk. Charisma helps with short term contact with strangers, that's about it. Once you get to know somebody more, you'll realize their true nature and their charisma might wear off on you.
And most of the people who voted on "least popular person here" were members of the caravan Belkar had been briefly traveling with.


Like, say, murdering a bunch of people in a bar fight and then getting surprised at being thrown in prison?
Or like, lighting a tent on fire when trying to sneak into a bandit camp!

Or possibly leaving your post in battle because something distracted you, and musing as you wandered back to your post, "What kind of brain-dead moron could screw up protecting the spellcasters?"

[imp_fireball]

Like, say, murdering a bunch of people in a bar fight and then getting surprised at being thrown in prison? :smallwink:

No... more like 'murdering a bunch of people in a bar fight because they had it coming, after all, they started the fight and I probably won't get caught.'

He does think it through, see. Listen to what he says more often.


Or like, lighting a tent on fire when trying to sneak into a bandit camp!

Or like, 'Seriously, this is going no where. Where the hell is the action? No bandit in living memory has ever been tough enough to actually require actively avoiding. Haley needs to up her class act a little.'


And most of the people who voted on "least popular person here" were members of the caravan Belkar had been briefly traveling with.


He's probably least popular because they are scared of him. Was Belkar present at the time of voting?


Or possibly leaving your post in battle because something distracted you, and musing as you wandered back to your post, "What kind of brain-dead moron could screw up protecting the spellcasters?"

What distracted him again? People with below average wis don't usually have great control over their emotions.

Right now it feels like reading through a news article and saying 'man that guy is stupid' - you have to put yourself in their shoes to determine whether or not they have the most virulent case of ADHD.

[Saph]

No... more like 'murdering a bunch of people in a bar fight because they had it coming, after all, they started the fight and I probably won't get caught.'

He does think it through, see. Listen to what he says more often.

What a good idea. Let's listen to what he says. :smallamused:

Guard: "And so you felt justified to go on a killing spree?"
Belkar: "I wouldn't qualify it as a 'spree', necessarily. Frankly, I think given the circumstances you should be rewarding me for the restraint I showed in not killing the bartender and the barmaids."
Belkar: " . . . Well, not killing ALL the barmaids. It's not my fault none of those other guys drew their weapons."
Guard: "It was a barroom brawl! Those 'other guys' were best friends with a few too many drinks in them."
Belkar: "Hey, they were the ones dumb enough to bring fists to a knife fight."
Guard: "It wasn't a knife fight until you started stabbing people!"
Belkar: "Exactly! If you humans want people to stop killing so many of you in your towns, you should put up some kind of sign. Like, 'Thank you for not killing more than five of us.' "
Guard: "We don't want you to kill ANY of us."
Belkar: "Well, now you're just being unreasonable."
Guard: "You know, I don't have to debate this with you. It's the law. You'll be held until you are found guilty or set free."
Belkar: "Sweet! I'm not even the slightest bit guilty!"
Guard: "In this usage, 'guilty' means that you committed the crime, not that you feel guilt."
Belkar. "Oh. Never mind, then."

Yeah, 4-6 wisdom is the absolute upper limit.

[imp_fireball]

Guard: "And so you felt justified to go on a killing spree?" :smallsigh:

Belkar: "I wouldn't qualify it as a 'spree', necessarily. Frankly, I think given the circumstances you should be rewarding me for the restraint I showed in not killing the bartender and the barmaids." :smallyuk:

Belkar's Brain: They're bartenders and chicks. C'mon! I mean, c'mon. Innocent parties. You're the nice guy here. A victim of circumstance! They'll believe that right? They should, if they aren't uh... stupid or whatever - Hm... wait crap, they've actually got reasons they could dish out by the mile here! Play it cool, Belkar. Play it cool.

Belkar: " . . . Well, not killing ALL the barmaids. It's not my fault none of those other guys drew their weapons." :smallannoyed:

Belkar's Brain: Exactly. Not drawing their weapons. Leaves to question what exactly transpired. Maybe they were reaching for their weapons, and as Belkar, the stone cold bad ass adventurer, you just felt you had to act. Guards think about those things right? If they do, I hope this sucker will feel guilty as hell about not putting himself in your shoes.

Guard: "It was a barroom brawl! Those 'other guys' were best friends with a few too many drinks in them." :smallfurious:

Belkar's Brain: ... you're kidding right? This guy sure is assuming a lot. Damn guard's always assuming crap...

Belkar: "Hey, they were the ones dumb enough to bring fists to a knife fight." :smallannoyed:

Belkar's Brain: Yah that's right, you tell 'em Belkar. The newbies got no clue what they're getting into, nor to the extent of how flexible you can go in a self defense claim. Hell, you didn't even mutilate these guys all that much this time... I don't think. This prude'll have to believe that.

Guard: "It wasn't a knife fight until you started stabbing people!" :smalleek:

Belkar's Brain: ... there's a law against knife fights? What the hell does 'kingdom of blood' mean then? Kingdom of bloody martinis for all their metrosexual affairs that they uh... go to (or whatever the hell they do)? Feck.

Belkar: "Exactly! If you humans wanted people to stop killing so many of you in your towns, you should have put up some kind of sign. Like, 'Thank you for not killing more than five of us.'"

Belkar's Brain: Yah, and it uh... helps to be specific? I'm sure any guard involved with any part of the law would realize that.

Guard: "We don't want you to kill ANY of us." :smallmad:

Belkar's Brain: Okay... now just how much experience does this guy have on his resume? Seriously? I'm really damn curious. He clearly doesn't get sarcasm for one.

Okay now, Lesson One: People kill people. Seriously, that's the least you'd expect from reality; something anyone brave enough to appear in public should know. I thought parents taught their kids this crap.

I could go on, but it'd pointless, it really would be, because people never change once they reach 50 or however old you gotta be if you're human.

*sighs mentally*

But it really, really helps not to be weak minded. And, 'we don't want you to kill any of us? Ooo! Please don't kill us! If we beg and plead with you, maybe you'll stop?' Bah! Typical lamentation of any woman who I've successfully known only long enough to just barely avoid the nagging. Gods, what a damn wuss. It just grinds my gears that the world is full of these people.

Ask him that, Belkar. ASK HIM THAT.

Belkar: ...

... Wait wait, don't ask him that. Don't ask him that. Despite how awesome it'd be, it'll probably offend his wussy ass and then he'll whine to his boss or mom or whatever. Forget I said anything.

Belkar: "Well, now you're just being unreasonable." :smallfurious:

Belkar's Brain: Exactly. This is pure unreasonable bull. Civility. You are a civil halfling of pure circumstance - a good story right? Something that'll require my casual appearance with you in a court and jury (size and importance not withstanding), at most.

Guard: "You know, I don't have to debate this with you. It's the law. You'll be held until you are found guilty or set free." :smallsigh:

Belkar: "Sweet! I'm not even the slightest bit guilty!" :smallbiggrin:

Belkar's Brain: Woah - Score!

Guard: "In this usage, 'guilty' means that you committed the crime, not that you feel guilt." :smallannoyed:

Belkar's Brain: ...

Belkar. "Oh. Never mind, then." :smallfrown:

Belkar's Brain: Ooo uh... actually, did he say 'held until you're free/guilty, etc.'? Grr... AAAHHHHH Dammit! Dammit to hell! These guards are fuggin' drones. Y'know, I really, really hate humans. Their god just had to have a vendetta with me and Belkar right at this moment, didn't he?

*later on*

Belkar's Brain: Ooo, Roy's comin' along for the ride, eh? Yah nevermind, maybe this'll be fun after all. Just remember, Belkar my man, always put up a good front.

I went in there and made the edits for you.

[Saph]

I went in there and made the edits for you.

Interesting piece of fanfiction, but we're talking about the stuff written by the Giant, not by you. :smallamused:

[imp_fireball]

Interesting piece of fanfiction, but we're talking about the stuff written by the Giant, not by you. :smallamused:

But in all honesty that pretty much reflects how Belkar thinks. That of someone with a Wis of 8 or so (lower than 9 even, which is still a -1 penalty).

----
Elan on the other hand... Int 7 - 9, Wis 3 - 6 (6 would be generous for Elan).

For :thog:; Int is a solid 3 with all the bells and whistles. Wis 7 - 11. Wis makes sense, it's sometimes a dump stat for barbarians - Thog probably had 20 Str, 18 Con at level 1. Oddly, his charisma is at least average or higher (maybe he took the half-orc variant that chooses either Int or Cha to be the penalty stat and not both? He probably did it to buff intimidate, which made him the perfect target for Nale as a mobile dumb muscle, partner in fast interrogation when there was no time for torture).

:nale:

Probably Wis 11 - 13, with Int a straight 13 - 16 (being generous with the 16 though), with Cha being his top stat. He knows how to think ahead, but he isn't entirely adept at it. He doesn't treat it as part of his profession - only to supplement his intellectual skills of planning and elaborate deceit. If he makes silly mistakes, this is due to his massive ego that he enjoys petting.

[Kish]

But in all honesty that pretty much reflects how Belkar thinks.

That's a matter of opinion, but just to point out, Saph was talking about the barroom brawl Belkar was incarcerated for in On the Origins of PCs. Not the one in the Empire of Blood recently; and, because I'm not sure you realize this, everything s/he quoted Belkar saying was in the actual comic there.

[imp_fireball]

That's a matter of opinion, but just to point out, Saph was talking about the barroom brawl Belkar was incarcerated for in On the Origins of PCs. Not the one in the Empire of Blood recently; and, because I'm not sure you realize this, everything s/he quoted Belkar saying was in the actual comic there.

Well if it was 'on the origin of PCs' (which I haven't read), it obviously reflected a time in which belkar had less experience and was only beginning to nurture his love for slaughter.

Doesn't necessarily reflect on wisdom. He might have been young and overconfident (which would actually be a penalty to wisdom according to my age rules) about what he could get away with.

And about him thinking he could play up 'self defense' in his head reflects on his actions to attack a bunch of unarmed drinking buddies. It also reflects on his actions of not choosing to think about studying how the law went wherever he was at that time.

He didn't kill them because he thought he couldn't get arrested and it was possible that he couldn't be responsible because the world revolved around him (this thinking is really that of a very young child with 3 or 4 wisdom at the most). That would have been ridiculous.

There's other factors too, did he try to escape? Did he just go sit down and steal the guy's drink?

[Kish]

Well if it was 'on the origin of PCs' (which I haven't read), it obviously reflected a time in which belkar had less experience and was only beginning to nurture his love for slaughter.

A day or two before he joined the Order, to be specific.


And about him thinking he could play up 'self defense' in his head

In your fanfic, you mean? 'Cause he never said that in the strip.


He didn't kill them because he thought he couldn't get arrested and it was possible that he couldn't be responsible because the world revolved around him (this thinking is really that of a very young child with 3 or 4 wisdom at the most).

...Proof by assertion? More than that, proof by assertion that he doesn't mean what he very explicitly says? In fact, that's the way he was acting right up until his coma-dream. "Why shouldn't I?[...] [Their Society] never did anything for me."


There's other factors too, did he try to escape? Did he just go sit down and steal the guy's drink?
When we first meet him, he's in prison, having the argument with the guard that Saph detailed. We don't see the fight.

(I was puzzled by the seeming agreement between everyone in this thread--this is the Internet, for heaven's sake! We are now arguing over Belkar's Wisdom; universal order has been restored.)

[Scarlet Knight]

Don't forget: :belkar: "How do I serve -1 year?"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

[imp_fireball]

...Proof by assertion? More than that, proof by assertion that he doesn't mean what he very explicitly says? In fact, that's the way he was acting right up until his coma-dream. "Why shouldn't I?[...] [Their Society] never did anything for me."

If he meant what he explicitly said then he'd have all the willpower of a child (as it is, that'd be -2 - -3 will, without iron will feat, ). He'd probably shut up a lot more often. And he'd make simple mistakes. Roy would find him even more annoying - in fact so annoying that he'd kick off the team for being driven with rage.

Belkar may seem illogical - but that is in part due to his sociopathy. Insanity affects reasoning.


"How do I serve -1 year?"


He knows its hopeless and he's going to jail, so he decides to make do with some dark humor. You don't honestly think he believes it's possible to serve -1 year do you? OotS has a lot more verisimillitude then the type of comedy you seem to think it is.

If it was the type of comedy you thought it was - then you'd be looking at something like south park with a character like Officer Barbrady (*After seeing a cow hanging over stan's grandfather tied to a hempen rope strung to a tree with Stan holding the rope* "Um... carry on." or *seeing cartman tied to a crucifix on a snowy hill in midday. Cartman is faintly yelling at him for help.* "Duh dum-dum dum dum. *stares at Cartman.* T! T is for tur-tle!"). Also, consider 8-bit theater. Or looney tunes. All are examples of pure comedy without verisimillitude.


We don't see the fight.

Well there you go. You can't assume the circumstances. It's hard to believe he just blindly went in and killed people in broad day light in front of everyone (only someone like Richard from Looking for Group would do that; and even then he only does it because he's a superpowered warlock (in world of warcraft terms; by D&D standards probably some mix of sorceror and binder or shadow caster or some such with improved familiar) of epic level and it amuses him). The guards were probably keen enough to catch him red handed. Someone with 8 wisdom doesn't think about guard watch posts. They might look at a tower and say "Oh that's a building, no one is in it. I don't think. Let's commit a crime now! :belkar:"

Again, this is like what I said with the newsprint article issue. People are made out to look stupid, when, while dumb, they aren't as stupid as you might think. They are human. All humans exhibit awareness of the self and self preservation.

If it was a small village or the tower was too far away or no towers were shown, the guards might have heard screaming. As a low level ranger, Belkar might have trouble preventing people from screaming before they die. That's quite hard. Especially when they see you with a weapon looking at them - in fact, not just looking at them, running towards you with the weapon aimed at your throat. Any person with common sense would think 'my life is now flashing before my eyes, I better start screaming'.

If he murdered five people, there's no chance he could kill them all via stealth. So there'd be screaming and frantic cries for help. Skilled guards would hear them, even if faintly.

He probably didn't think there was any guards in proximity. He might have even looked around - but with no ranks in spot or search, he's not going to a do a good job of it.

[Gift Jeraff]

He's making a joke.
He seems genuinely confused and we should get insight into Belkar feigning ignorance or at least a smirk if that's what it was intended as. I don't get why so many people are so quick to pass off Belkar's less bright moments as "He was joking." At least the cart-o'-gophers episode was after the whole "I can pretend to be a team player while also having fun. :smallamused:" revelation, so I can see that one as a joke.

[rewinn]

Belkar isn't nearly as stupid as you guys make him out to be.

If he were that stupid, he would have been drooling...

Ignorance is not the same as unintelligence.

Even the smartest people lack information on some things. ( :xykon::vaarsuvius: ) Belkar didn't know what a "cartographer" is because he chose to be a cook instead of a navigator.

[imp_fireball]

Ignorance is not the same as unintelligence.

Even the smartest people lack information on some things. ( :xykon::vaarsuvius: ) Belkar didn't know what a "cartographer" is because he chose to be a cook instead of a navigator.

So, he's never heard of the word. There's certainly people out there that haven't.

He just never bothered to learn. So yeah ignorance results from lack of experience. It is what you don't know. What isn't part of your contained memory. It is not related to wisdom.


He seems genuinely confused and we should get insight into Belkar feigning ignorance or at least a smirk if that's what it was intended as. I don't get why so many people are so quick to pass off Belkar's less bright moments as "He was joking." At least the cart-o'-gophers episode was after the whole "I can pretend to be a team player while also having fun. :smallamused:" revelation, so I can see that one as a joke.

Not everyone shows emotion or is uplifted when making a joke.

Think of spider-man. He resorts to humor to cope. Not to make him happy. Just cope.

He also could have very well been sarcastic (in fact the chances are quite high). If he shows a grim face (too bad there's no smilie for it otherwise I could show you), then that obviously means he's being sarcastic (unless it is the grim face of a neanderthal - AKA dumb, but then he'd start saying 'Me belkar. Me make joke to lighten mood when get arrested. Crap, me still busted.').


"I can pretend to be a team player while also having fun. "

The fact that he even realized this is great introspection. Something related to wisdom (perception of the self in regards to others along with perception of other things). Just so y'know, a wise nerd knows that people think he's a nerd. That's perception of the self.


so I can see that one as a joke.

See what as a joke?
----

Just to note, if Belkar had a confused look for the -1 comment, then he was putting up an act. Not every character in OotS shows emotion when saying things and it has to be made obvious to the audience that they are acting (an example of 'obvious to the audience' would be Nale portraying the role of Elan).

[Ranzunar]

Belkar has at least INT 13 because I'm pretty sure he has the Combat Expertise Feat. When he's fighting Crystal and Bozzok here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html it seems like he's really piling high on the AC as an active choice, rather than as a full defense action. Not to mention that a few issues later http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html he is able to trip Crystal rather easily, probably indicating that he has the Improved Trip Feat, which has as a prerequisite Combat Expertise. Belkar may not be smarter than V or Roy (maybe even Haley) but I got to admit that he is by no means unintelligent.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not everyone shows emotion or is uplifted when making a joke.

But that seems very uncharacteristic of Rich and any good writer to just have us assume he was joking when he had a very blank face, when every other time he's pretending to do/think something (care about Roy, hit on female Roy, eating Yokyok salsa), we can see he's just doing it to annoy Roy/whoever.

Not to mention, I don't think "Belkar was just teasing him" is quite as funny as "Belkar honestly wondered how he would serve -1 years".

[Origomar]

I'm sure I remember V saying he was stupid. Also its not a good idea to only look at it from a D&D perspective, someone like Belkar in real life would have a bad Intelligence

actually most serial killers are above average in intellignece.

[calar]

Remember though, intelligence in D&D terms means book smarts, which Belkar has displayed very little of. That said, he hasn't shown exceptional stupidity either making me think hie int is a 9 or 10.

[Gandariel]

We all know belkar's wis sucks. I'd say about 7-8
This is proven many times, for example in his inability to cast spells, failing listen checks, Etc. (even though a thing has always bugged me: is Wis also represents sensorial acuity, why is Belkar so good at smelling?)
Now
Belkar IS smart.
he outsmarts Miko with his plan, he IS making everyone believe he's having character growth, he managed to hide his Ring of jumping +20, before the second fight with miko he was concoting a battle plan, he also defeats the son of YikYik by putting a note on the tavern's door.

Belkar is unreasonable, unconsiderate, impulsive... but you can't say he' stupid.

actually Belkar often says he doesn't have many skill points (he has 2 skillsets, one of which is represented by 4 ranks in cooking...)
anyway i'd put Belkar's Int at 13-14

[Damon_Caskey]

We all know belkar's wis sucks. I'd say about 7-8
actually Belkar often says he doesn't have many skill points (he has 2 skillsets, one of which is represented by 4 ranks in cooking...)
anyway i'd put Belkar's Int at 13-14

I wouldn't say he is devoid.

We know he has "high" (presumably maxed) Move Silently and Hide skills. He's also most likely maxed his Jump, Balance, and Tumble.

Belkar also has Ride (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) (the Geek thread missed that one), and considering how much he obsesses over mounts, I wouldn't doubt that's maxed too. Then you have Intimidate, Cooking, and Animal Empathy.

Even with Ranger skill points, that's quite a few spent and several cross class choices. Further proof he probably has a minor int bonus helping him out.

DC

[Gandariel]

I wouldn't say he is devoid.

We know he has "high" (presumably maxed) Move Silently and Hide skills. He's also most likely maxed his Jump, Balance, and Tumble.

Belkar also has Ride (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) (the Geek thread missed that one), and considering how much he obsesses over mounts, I wouldn't doubt that's maxed too. Then you have Intimidate, Cooking, and Animal Empathy.

Even with Ranger skill points, that's quite a few spent and several cross class choices. Further proof he probably has a minor int bonus helping him out.

DC

You're making a LOT of assumptions here.
i mean, molt of your assumptions make sense (even though i don't think Belkar would max his Ride skill if he never rides...)...
but they're assumptions nonetheless.. i don't remember him showing any tumble, balance or jumping (except for the ring)

[Kish]

Just to note, if Belkar had a confused look for the -1 comment, then he was putting up an act.
This is outright goofy. As far as I can tell, you've reached, "He has a Wisdom of 8 because I say so, and any evidence that it's lower is him obscurely joking."

[Damon_Caskey]

You're making a LOT of assumptions here.
i mean, molt of your assumptions make sense (even though i don't think Belkar would max his Ride skill if he never rides...)...
but they're assumptions nonetheless.. i don't remember him showing any tumble, balance or jumping (except for the ring)

Of course I am. But nothing any worse then the geek thread does, and no one is giving them flak about. In fact, I use that thread as a standard if you will about what can be taken as evidence and what is just pure conjecture.

Everything we know about the characters are assumptions (Belkar having Intimidate ranks because he could cow the Eye of Fear and flame) unless absolute hard evidence is presented (like admitting his wisdom penalty and not being able to cast spells) or the Giant himself speaks on the subject.

Also, Belkar's Balance/Tumble come into play quite often in battles. I don't have time to ferret out the links right now, but look at his battle with thieves guild, Miko, barbarians, and ogres (early in comic, which happens to be pre ring). No other character in the comic has shown any visual acrobatic ability without it being stated explicitly they have Tumble ranks at some point. Given he is shown flipping around as or more often then others, I believe it is a fair and logical assumption Belkar has the skill ranks to back it up.

DC

[Kish]

Just for the record, there is no Animal Empathy skill in 3.5ed. And considering he has only four ranks in Profession (gourmet chef), which he describes as one of his two skillsets along with killing, I'd be wary of equating "he has X skill" with "he has X skill maxed."

[Gandariel]

This is outright goofy. As far as I can tell, you've reached, "He has a Wisdom of 8 because I say so, and any evidence that it's lower is him obscurely joking."

First of all, belkar's Wisdom can't be under a certain score because he wouldn't have been able to cast the cure spell when V casted owl's wisdom on him...
anyway, it IS reasonable thinking that some of his (as well as anyone else's) actions are purely made up for the joke...

[Kish]

First of all,

...Not touching it.


anyway, it IS reasonable thinking that some of his (as well as anyone else's) actions are purely made up for the joke...
Belkar consistently acts in a way that shows catastrophic Wisdom. The logical conclusion, is that he has catastrophic Wisdom. "He actually has a Wisdom of 8 and often acts as though it was a lot lower for humor" is within the bounds of theoretical possibility--as are, "The party is controlled by giant space cats" and "Xykon is from modern Earth." But, I don't see why anyone would bet that way when "Belkar's Wisdom is, as it appears to be from his actions, catastrophically low" is a much simpler explanation.

[rewinn]

Belkar consistently acts in a way that shows catastrophic Wisdom....

I dunno. Certainly LOW wisdom, if only to make the Owl's Wisdom/Spellcasting joke work.

But some of the apparent low-wis behavior may also stem from his Chaotic Evil alignment and motivations. Belkar's not accustomed to thinking ahead any more than Xykon is, and yet both of them are getting what they like. It's Evil stuff that they're getting, but they're getting plenty of it.

And Belkar *did* have the huge insight of faking character development so that people who treat him more as he would like. This may have been under the influence of the Mark of Justice, supernatural intervention, sickness and/or plot, but it is a big, big insight - one that works in the real world and yet is so often missed by so many.

[Kish]

And Belkar *did* have the huge insight of faking character development so that people who treat him more as he would like.
I do feel obligated to point out that, huge insight or not, he hasn't been able to pull it off. The only person he's fooled is himself.

[137beth]

His INT and WIS don't seem too high when you look at something like not putting any skill points into tracking...or not remembering that Roy promised giants were guarding the star metal.

[Gandariel]

...Not touching it.

Belkar consistently acts in a way that shows catastrophic Wisdom. The logical conclusion, is that he has catastrophic Wisdom. "He actually has a Wisdom of 8 and often acts as though it was a lot lower for humor" is within the bounds of theoretical possibility--as are, "The party is controlled by giant space cats" and "Xykon is from modern Earth." But, I don't see why anyone would bet that way when "Belkar's Wisdom is, as it appears to be from his actions, catastrophically low" is a much simpler explanation.

Okay.. in order to discuss if belkar's Wis is more likely 8 or 5, i need you to tell me exactly what does it mean to have a wis of 8 or 5 (sorry, i'm not actually an expert of d&d)
so, 10 is the wis of a common human...
can you please describe me what would mean to have 8 or 5 wis, or their general attitude? What actions would a 5wis character do that a 8wis wouldn't?
( maybe the listed Wis of some creatures would help)

[137beth]

According to the monster manual...
the average goblin has wisdom 9,
the average orc has wisdom 7
the average troll has wisdom 9
and the average ogre has wisdom 10.

The rules are not very specific on exactly how "wise" someone is if they have a wisdom of 8. You can just assume they are "not as wise as someone with wisdom 10". In a story sense, that isn't very helpful:smallwink:

[DemLep]

Anything Belkar does known Ranger can be explained by him thinking he was a warrior. Now I don't know of a Warrior class in 3.5, but he doesn't know he can cast spell. Which he actually can't, because of his wisdom being to low. In 3.5 rules a score of 9 or lower in the needed spellcasting ability for a class means you can't cast spells. Further more Owl's Wisdom give you a +4 to wisdom. So his wisdom is between 6 and 9. I can not recall any other hard proof of his wisdom score off hand.

More to the point. This thread is about his Intelligence, not wisdom. I know of no point in which we get any hard facts about his intelligence, other than the show of his skills. V comments can be ignored. V compares everyone to his/her self and his/her knowledge of the arcane. Belkar knows nothing of the arcane, nor cares. That All I can get out of that.

Belkar's skills which are most often shown, once again I state that this is off of the top of my head, are cooking and crafting. As to how many nothing is stated. I don't think he has any in ride, sense Elan was that only one stated to have ranks in it and you don't need them it ride normally. We do know he has 1 in survival, though.

That's all I've got for now.

[Orzel]

Imagine there is a treasure chest sitting near the middle of the road. It is open and many shiny gems fill in to the top. The ground surrounding the chest is soiled with blood. There are several people passing by it, none of them take the chest nor reach inside. Even a group of large thugs avoid contact with the chest.

High to Normal Int: There is a treasure chest sitting near the middle of the road but no one has taken from it yet. Strange. Something must be wrong.
High to Normal Wis: There is a treasure chest sitting near the middle of the road and it's surrounded by blood soaked dirt. Strange. Something must be wrong.


Intelligence allows you to reason that something is wrong the chest because it exists when it should not. Intelligence makes sense of the info you do have.
Wisdom allows you to notice the blood and the people's faces turning away from it. This then triggers your basic instincts. Intelligence makes sense of the info you do have. Wisdom determine how much information for have.

I imagine Belkar would see the chest and wonder why no one has stolen it yet. Since he would most likely not see the blood nor the shunning, and won't have the wisdom to ponder about it longer than a few seconds; he'd make a stupid reasoning due to his lack of information. "They're all too stupid to steal". Then he gets attacked by a mimic, shouts "I should have known", and kills it.

To me Belkar's Intelligence is good as he know a lot about certain things. His low wisdom just keeps him from noticing and remembering details. His plans aren't "stupid", he just never handled the details but he never saw them.

[Gandariel]

According to the monster manual...
the average goblin has wisdom 9,
the average orc has wisdom 7
the average troll has wisdom 9
and the average ogre has wisdom 10.

The rules are not very specific on exactly how "wise" someone is if they have a wisdom of 8. You can just assume they are "not as wise as someone with wisdom 10". In a story sense, that isn't very helpful:smallwink:

Which leaves me and Kish to discuss to the death whether belkar is or isn't wiser than the average orc...
or call it a draw and say LOW

[DemLep]

I see a new game show...

Are You Smarter Than An Orc! Or in orc, R U Smartar Then A Ork! Maybe with a few more misspellings and some reverse letters. You get an orc to help you and if you lose he kills you. If you win he'll probably still kill you.

[rewinn]

And Belkar *did* have the huge insight of faking character development so that people who treat him more as he would like... .I do feel obligated to point out that, huge insight or not, he hasn't been able to pull it off. The only person he's fooled is himself.
That may be so among his teammates;they know him really well, have reason to believe he's faking, and (mostly) don't have cripplingly low wisdom themselves.

None-the-less, it's a wise move on his part. His behavioral changes, however insincerely based, take some heat off him from the party and from others that they meet who don't know the depths of his evil. Cammo doesn't always work but it's often a good idea.

The interesting question may be whether there's feedback from his fakery back to his core personality. Some people hold the "fake it 'til you make it" theory of change (which may be a little too close to Real World stuff to discuss here, I dunno.)

[imp_fireball]

But that seems very uncharacteristic of Ric

It doesn't detract in any way from the story does it? It seems uncharacteristic because that's Rich's 'face' that he is showing to readers. Experience readers of many fiction can liken to note these things however.


Also, Vaarsuvius said something about "all the characters with any Charisma" being absent when those present were Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Belkar; and when Belkar was looking for the "least popular person here," the name of the strip was, "Actually, that's probably you."

Yah, that might have been a tongue-in-cheek dig at readers (made to look like it is at Belkar). Kinda like what Brian Clevinger did from time to time when 8-bit theater was still around.

Readers of D&D comics are nerds - nerds stereotypically have no friends. It's funny.

Basically a witty double dig. In no way means Rich hates us - it's sarcastic humor.

EDIT: On the other hand, Rich never makes those sorts of jokes. But ah well. Just if he did, he probably tucked it away very neatly so that nobody would notice except people with OCD like myself.


low cha may be one of the following:
1.shy
2.doesnt know when to shut up
3.ugly
4.unable to impress/befriend outer people

I think I'll put this to rest right here.

1. Wrong. That's just lack of confidence about yourself. You could have a very high charisma and be terribly shy. It's just that people might note more often how 'cute' your shyness was.

2. That's a lack of social skills. If they had high charisma, then they would just dominate conversations and people would feel blockaded and possibly intimidated. They might be furious inside but they might not like to show it.

3. Ugliness has no bearing on charisma whatsoever. If your a girl, you can be very attractive and people will look at you and say 'She's probably a slut.' If you had decent charisma however, strangers might comment off-handedly, 'She's perfect. Intelligent and sexy. What a catch.'

4. This is probably still just a lack of common sense. You might be looking for the wrong people to befriend. You might be showing too much ego. Many many things factor into social psychology here.
-----

If you have a low charisma but excellent public speaking skills and are able to debate extensively about the most demanding issues - people might get a false impression. They might think 'what is he thinking inside?'. 'He sounds too angry' or 'he sounds like such a damn preppy'.

With low charisma, you have less keen 'social interrelation' sense. It's very hard to describe, even with scientific terms because charisma as it stands is a difficult psychology topic.

I noticed the other day when this one bus driver lady was talking to me that she seemed very blunt, abrasive and peeved off - but her words were perfectly normal things that any bus driver would say. I felt ebbing frustration and annoyance at hearing her. It was hard to control.

And yet she was well meaning when she said "I'm on break now. So you'll have to get off." Her tone sounded almost flat, authoritative and pissed off - almost like inside her mind, she was experiencing all of this incredible stress. I don't think she was experiencing any of this though. Why would she be? She's a bus driver (a very lax job) about to go on break.

And I could only respond with "Huh. If you say so." Nearby some girls outside laughed at the whole oddity of an incredibly annoyed sounding bus driver telling me to get off because she was on break.

That was an example of real life low charisma right there.


If you win he'll probably still kill you.

At least I gotta be on duh TV. :thog:


None-the-less, it's a wise move on his part.

The important thing to note is that Belkar hardly ever comes up with these perceptive ideas except on occasion (Roy on the other hand is thinking these things all the time while Durkon thinks circles around even Roy. Note that Durkon's words are often calm and calculated. He's perceiving practically everything around him and to describe the extent of Durkon's mind would be an essay of its own. There really serves no purpose in the added angle of what Durkon is thinking to the comic though. He's just very cautious at all times.).

Hence why I continue to assert below average wisdom rather then stoopingly low or average wisdom.


Some people hold the "fake it 'til you make it" theory of change (which may be a little too close to Real World stuff to discuss here, I dunno.)

Hardly too close to real world stuff at all man.

People that fake it til they make it typically have low - average wisdom themselves I'd personally say. They haven't made the self discovery that when being yourself, you actually are more likely to exert your full potential upon the world (of course the case is quite the reverse for Belkar being a complete sociopath and all).


the average goblin has wisdom 9,
the average orc has wisdom 7
the average troll has wisdom 9
and the average ogre has wisdom 10.

Here's how see it

Wisdom 10-11

Straight average.

They grasp common sense things like 'people often like to hide their stress when getting to work because it reflects better on customer service values.' They are able to recognize things like what a good singer sounds like - they can play back songs in their heads. They know that shallow people aren't always stupid. They can will a song stuck in their head to discontinue with concerted effort. They realize that there's different types of intelligences out there in the world (such as social intelligence, physical intelligence, logical intelligence, etc.). They know that it is not worth it to purchase lottery tickets or to take drugs or even get drunk unless they are really in the mood with lots of people. They are aware of when they may sound awkward or when a conversation might be turning awkward. They will have feelings of nostalgia when hearing a song they heard as a kid or seeing a TV show, playing a video game, etc. They have beat depression and are more introspective for it.

However, if they are brought up under certain family values, they might expect that people will respect their culture just because everyone else's culture is respected in the workplace. They might tune out a debater's argument if it sounds racist to them (even if it is a very good argument). They might go with the crowd on political issues just because the commercials for those shows give them fuzzy feelings. They might be unable to imagine, in any way whatsoever, how certain movies could possibly get produced technology wise, even if they have a grasping of how technology relates to the movie production biz. They might think that someone is a little off because he mutters to himself every now and then. They may seek continually to not be embarrassed and to reassure their own egos, thus they may not be themselves in front of strangers all the time. They frequently suffer from writer's block. They need assistance from such resources as a map to get around a city and dread being lost. They suffer stress from worrying about things.

Wisdom 8 - 9

A bit blunt. They don't always think about what they say in conversation. When angry at someone, they don't always consider how the other person would react (they know that that person may react negatively; they just don't consider the impact of that negativity on themselves). They tend to label people with behavioral profiles, almost subconsciously and may or may not off-handedly discuss the flaws of various people they've met since 'nobody's perfect' (my mother often does this and she probably suits this category quite well).

They might take things like credentials more seriously than actual work experience. Because 'After all, if that person has credentials, he's technically a professional however you look at it, right? He'd get hired if he just got off his ass.'

They might say that they didn't offend someone because they hadn't intended to. They may be so suspicious of things like spam and viruses that they are often concerned to let friends of friends use their computer (even if they know that those friends use computers very often). In small talk with those they are intimate with, they may externalize their worry about typical day to day tasks because there's 'nothing else to talk about'.

They may place an unnecessary amount of trust or suspicion in someone due to credentials or rumors. They may be overconfident about their own advice that they give to others and drag out a conversation to make it seem like they know a lot about day to day life and the affects of life experience (my mother does this). They assume that if people are sane or 'not at all odd/different/special', they will think 'this' way or 'that' way.

Torture is wrong, no matter what.

You must be careful not to hurt someone's feelings unless you are very angry at them. If you don't have anything nice to say you may as well not say anything at all. No matter the circumstances.

Every obstacle is different. Each requires a different way of looking at it - that's the case pretty much 99% of the time.

Ignorance is never bliss.

Puns suck.

Tolerance means being open minded of other cultures and races/religions/etc. That's pretty much it.

But - they might realize that people do like to be 'leveled with'. They may realize that people often tend to hate being patronized or spoken to condescendingly. They may realize that it can be annoying to have someone pick apart your work with things like spell checking and grammar (or anything else in the context of work itself). They may have a lot of common sense regarding their field of work.

Wisdom 6 - 7

Impaired. They know not to be gullible - they know the definition of gullible (after all, everyone's uses that joke, EVERYONE). They think it isn't normal to not use the joke since everyone uses it at some point (hence 'normal' is average, right?). They really ponder to great extent why 'why did the chicken cross the road' is funny. They have to focus quite extensively to grasp certain humor - but other humor strikes them (as it would anyone else) as naturally funny.

They think that celebrities are stupid - like really stupid. Almost brain dead. After all, why do they all end up in rehab? That's just stupid right? Smart people do all the smart jobs. Stupid people do everything else.

They purchase lottery tickets every now and then - after all, they might win, you never know.

Words are appropriated to their definition, they know that too. People use slang because they're lazy.

Little effort or care needs to be put into a job that a stupid person could do.

They believe that certain actions are guided by fate.

They know, like, a lot of things. They know that it's wrong to judge people - except sometimes when it's very appropriate to judge people because others are clearly judging them.

Purple prose is smart and creative to them, but a bit frustrating at times.

People who write tales of fantasy must all have immense imaginations. Most artists are just strange. Music is only as good as it sounds, as determined by the public.

Do something in half a second, regardless of what it is or the context of why, when or how, is doing something pretty quickly.

Sex is simple because stupid people are highly involved in it all the time. Smart people are more concerned about studying things like rockets and computers. 'Psychosexual' is a buzz word.

Some people just have a death wish in accordance to their actions. Others just had it coming from day one.

Raising awareness is important - sometimes more so then actually solving the problem it addresses. Some people will naturally feel they need to correlate the problem, and soon similar problems will be addressed in the future. Thus a cycle of good is created.

Progress in society is defined entirely by technological progression.

Being called 'strange' is wrong, no matter how many ways you look at it. Now that I think about it, why are people called strangers? That's just rude to the unsuspecting party, isn't it?

Wis 4 - 5

Surprisingly Daft.

When someone refers to you by a slang term or name of a person or fictional character who was powerful in some manner - despite that character's flaws, it's probably a compliment 99 times out of 100 (unless that person is strange). After all, why would they insult you in that way? If they were to insult you, they'd probably swear at you or something.

Big budget movies will inevitably see big earnings. If not, it's because people are too dumb to go and see them.

Life will get much better when all grunt duties reserved for humans are replaced by robots.

Movies always address the most relevant issues.

Technological progression is practically linear. Books say that it isn't linear from 18th to 20th century and onwards, but that's because of 'revolutions', which themselves are 'linear jumps to higher linear progressions' - it's all still linear.

Putting things into perspective is annoying. Things should just be labeled as 'fast', 'slow', 'big', etc. Smart people can use synonyms though, since people will then take them more seriously that way - and the smart person will be heard, thus bettering all of humanity.

Punks, goths and gangsters are scary. They should just stop dressing that way. Period.

Computers are smarter than people. People just need to tell them what to do. That way, machines will probably never usurp humanity - as long they need us to move their mechanisms.

It's not a good idea to talk about your interests in public. People might stare.

You probably shouldn't be yourself in public. Unless you're naturally cool.

People staring is a bad thing. It means they are either frightened, or judging you. They don't say anything to you because they are afraid of committing a hate crime of some kind.

If you're white, you're never the victim of hate crime, no matter what. Hate crime was created as a defense of minorities because without it, they would die of stress under all the probable hate crime.

Nobody listens to the smart guy unless he makes a massive point. They don't listen because they are stupid.

Stupid people get into high positions of authority and monetary gain because they are bullies.

At any point in your life, you could undergo a rapid change for better or worse. You'll be unprepared for this.

Some animals are probably just as smart as the average person. After all, if they could talk, they'd prove it.


Wisdom 3

Dwelling in Ignorance

Swearing is cool because cool people do it.

There's a ban on smoking because secretly they want the less cool people to feel more cool.

They? Who are they? You know who they are. You're bluffing me man.

Bluffing sounds like buffalo. Sorta. Kinda. I don't know.

Killing is cool. Soccer moms say it isn't cool and they are the only ones who say so. It's because they are uncool. There are other uncool people out there too. Dying is uncool.

It isn't okay to be mean. Ever. That just makes people sad and that's wrong. Sadness isn't natural.

Strangers like to be literal at all times. After all, that's how you get a message across.


Wisdom 12-13

Keen.

Life isn't black and white.

People tend to hide things that they really should discuss.

People can be their own worst enemy.

If you can conquer depression and physical pain, then you can surely conquer a lot of things in your life.

Street smarts are a very good thing to have. About on par with book smarts.

It's okay to quote famous people every now and then. Good for conversation.

It's important to be humble since ego can take over every now and again. It's alright to boast with buddies though, because they are buddies.

Philosophy is a bit of a head drain at times. You can't get too deep into that stuff.

It's a good thing to put yourself in other people's shoes whenever you are addressing a problem. Newspaper articles require about the most abstract usage of this.

Out of body experiences are ridiculous. There's no scientific proof it could ever happen. Even so, it would be nice, but I wouldn't count on it.

Simple mistakes can lead to massive tragedies.

Team work is practically a given for anything involving a team.

There's a lot of minor stuff that was taught in high school that was absolute garbage.

People collect retro to make themselves seem keen on the heavily culture laden aspects of life. But really, they might have big egos.

If you are unique you are interesting. If you are mainstream, you're a lot less interesting. Oh well, to each their own.

Everything needs to be put into perspective.

Even minor flaws in one's character can be great indications of a lack in discipline or overall grounding.


Wisdom 14-15

A Sentry of Life

Some people need to be given time to figure out things for themselves. No matter how long it will take, it will always be for the better.

Decadence weakens us. And yet, if we work as hard as we play, everything falls into balance.

You must respect elders at all times. Even if they are unwise. It is better for the sake of your own discipline.

Certain things in life are unperceivable.

Don't waste your time thinking about things that can't be fixed in the near future.

You must always strive to please people and capture the light of their interest before you fill them with your interests and ideals.

There is never really too much decadence. Unless, at any point in time, it softens your mind.

You must be yourself. Or you will be inevitably ignored.

Life and its accomplishments stems entirely from knowledge. Everything is knowledge. Except nature itself.

Anything can be made funny if looked at in a certain way. Anything can be made awkward, bad ass, depressing or cheerful if presented in a certain way.

We only exist to fulfill one or two purposes in life.

Life is 99% emotion, 1% all else.

If you want respect, don't use flash and pizazz unless you want respect from every thinking thing ever to fart or breathe. Lure people in with your ideas.

Calm is the most neutral and best state of mind.

Neutrality is preferable to all else, most of the time.


Wisdom 16-17

Hyper Keen Gazer/Original Thinker

Nothing was ever intentionally created to annoy, hate, or negate absolutely.

Life is perhaps too decadent - yet incentive inspires us.

Humility and patience are perhaps the greatest assets of all.

Don't use existing quotes of wisdom. It's unoriginal. Invent your own.

Humanity, by nature, is True Neutral with Good Tendencies. The history of societies has only proven such.

So far, it has been proven that anything is possible. Anything is attainable. Life is only as difficult as we choose to look at it.

Every man, woman and child can feel happiness. From those dwelling in hell to those who's shame is absolute. It is possible to feel happy, just to be a living creature.

Even if you are shamed, you are not in shame unless you choose to be swayed. The same applies to every other thing you feel as well.

Morality is perspective.

You are what you believe you are. If you truly believe you are something, you will become what you are.

Not everyone can be helped, no matter the resources.


Wisdom 18

Sagely

It is possible to know everything and nothing.

Provide evidence with only yourself, not others.

Nothing is ever fully, undeniably truth. Everything is quantified and qualified, as defined by perspective.

[Ron Miel]

No, he doesn't, he confuses a cartographer with a cart of gophers.

Belkar is a joker. He pretends to misunderstand things in order to annoy people, especially Roy.