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G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-12, 09:36 PM
Alright I am in dire need of understanding how ToB works with multiclassing etc. I am working on making a "werelion" build that I had been working on before however I didn't really find abilities that fit it until recently. I am thinking of doing 8 Unarmed Swordsage/2 Chaos Monk 5 weretouched master tiger(Preerrata)/5 Bloodclaw Master. I know the level of maneuvers you can pick isn't really linear when you stray away from classes that grant them. So my question is in what way would i seperate out these levels so that I can get the highest level maneuvers and stances as I approach 20. What would be the highest level I could do. Or at the very least what page can I figure this out on myself. I have looked all over and am probably just blind. But I know it works this way...somehow. Just not sure how.

Greenish
2010-08-12, 09:40 PM
The later you pick up the levels in ToB classes the higher level maneuvers you'll have.

Your Initiatior Level (IL) for a given class is (ToB base class level) + (ToB PrC level†) + (levels in non-ToB classes)/2.

†Exception: Bloodstorm Blade is only 1/2 IL per level.

Cog
2010-08-12, 09:43 PM
The most straightforward way is to just take all your other classes first, then your ToB class last. Since you need prerequisite maneuvers to get those higher-level ones you're after, though, you can probably intersperse the ToB levels earlier to start picking up those low-level maneuvers as soon as you can take them. Just plot out what maneuvers you want to take, the IL you need for each, and don't take your ToB levels until you have the minimum IL you need to take the next maneuver in your desired list.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-12, 09:44 PM
The later you pick up the levels in ToB classes the higher level maneuvers you'll have.

Your Initiatior Level (IL) for a given class is (ToB base class level) + (ToB PrC level†) + (levels in non-ToB classes)/2.

†Exception: Bloodstorm Blade is only 1/2 IL per level.

So in this case my Initiator level would be 16? 8 from swordsage 5 from bloodclaw master then 3 from my monk plus weretouched master halved? Just to be clear.

Frosty
2010-08-12, 09:47 PM
Correct. Do be careful of pre-reqs though. Even if your IL is high enough you might not have enough maneuvers to move all the way up the disciplines.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-12, 09:54 PM
Correct. Do be careful of pre-reqs though. Even if your IL is high enough you might not have enough maneuvers to move all the way up the disciplines.

Indeed, I will have to change the build to be 9 swordsage/1 monk instead so I can have access to 9th level maneuvers. I lose a bonus feat but keep evasion regardless. I will keep an eye on prereqs and see what I can bring together to make this werelion hoss. Tiger Claw thiings seem awesome enough to me.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-12, 09:59 PM
Correct. Do be careful of pre-reqs though. Even if your IL is high enough you might not have enough maneuvers to move all the way up the disciplines.

Indeed, I will have to change the build to be 9 swordsage/1 monk instead so I can have access to 9th level maneuvers. I lose a bonus feat but keep evasion regardless. I will keep an eye on prereqs and see what I can bring together to make this werelion hoss. Tiger Claw thiings seem awesome enough to me.

Darrin
2010-08-12, 10:27 PM
Indeed, I will have to change the build to be 9 swordsage/1 monk instead so I can have access to 9th level maneuvers. I lose a bonus feat but keep evasion regardless. I will keep an eye on prereqs and see what I can bring together to make this werelion hoss. Tiger Claw thiings seem awesome enough to me.

You might want to consider only 2 or 3 levels of Bloodclaw Master. All 5 levels only gives you another 3 new maneuvers. Swordsage 10th-12, however, gives you a new maneuver every level, and two opportunities to swap a low-level maneuver with a higher-level maneuver.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-12, 10:36 PM
PS. I am not sure if this has been noted or a topic of errata. But has anyone else noticed that swordsage says skill points 6+Int/level x 6 at first level instead of times 4. I am sure this is a typo but what a fail as thats a ridiculous amount of skills right off the get go.

Edit: Good advice on the extra levels of swordsage instead. That is a great trade off indeed.

Endarire
2010-08-12, 10:39 PM
All classes should get x4 skill points at character level 1.

mrcarter11
2010-08-13, 12:29 AM
I always use the x6. It's what the books says. Take advantage of it.

Vangor
2010-08-13, 12:45 AM
I always use the x6. It's what the books says. Take advantage of it.

Unfortunately, the PHB supersedes this as the source material:


If the character gaining his or her 1st character level overall (that is, gaining his or her first level in any class), add his or her Intelligence modifier to the base skill point allotment for the class and multiply the total by four; then add an extra 4 points of the character is human.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-13, 01:37 PM
Update on the build and another question for the experts. I think I am going to change my build idea to 12 Swordsage/3 Bloodclaw Master/5 Weretouched Master(Pre-errata) This will let me get the 9th level maneuvers and also still have high enough BAB to pump out 6 Attacks base/round. My focus is on unarmed and unarmored. Punching things really hard, tossing them around the battlefield/ and absorbing as many blows as possible without the protection of armor. I am thinking I am going to take my discipline Focus for both tiger claw and I think stone dragon. Does anyone have any alternative suggestions or feat options that will help with this build.

Keld Denar
2010-08-13, 02:13 PM
Desert Wind actually synergizes well with lots of attacks. Burning/Searing/Inferno Blades are really great when you are making 6-7 attacks per round. Yea, fire resistance will suck, but you won't always fight things with it, and against everything else it'll be great. Obviously, if you are plane shifting to the elemental plane of fire, you might want to prep non-fire manevuers, but for 9/10ths of your adventuring career, they will serve you nicely.

I'd nab Baffling Defense (Setting Sun) at some point. It can really help you when needed. Keep it prepped at all times.

I assume you are mostly Str focus, but if you have a decent Dex as well, Shadow Hand has UAS as discipline weapon, so you could totally nab Shadow Blade. This restricts you to SH Stances, but would allow you to add Dex on top of Str for bonus damage. Thats pretty respectable.

I'd definitely consider taking Travel Devotion at least once, if not twice or more. This'll give you a couple of combats per day with a ton of extra mobility while still retaining your ability to full attack. Alternatively, dip Cleric1 to get Travel Devotion, another domain with a useful ability, and a pool of TU attempts to power Travel Devotion.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-13, 02:21 PM
Ill agree that the shadow hand and desert wind disciplines are really good. Perhaps I can make the desert wind fit. Just for my own personal flavour of the character though id like to keep his melee options simple. He is just a straight up were creature able to crack a few skulls. I don't think flaming fists will fit themeatically. And it is a high strength build certainly but the dex won't be bad either so I could look into that.

Also with the pre-errata version of weretouched master. The alternate form ability allows you to go into a bipedal form of the creature selected. Stats wise I am doing the tiger option and I am just calling it a lion for flavour. When it says you shift into this bipedal creature do you take on its size special attacks etc. Or do you just add the stat bonuses and leave it as that. I have always assumed the later of the two but I may have been doing it wrong.

Adumbration
2010-08-13, 02:38 PM
Unfortunately, the PHB supersedes this as the source material:

Actually, I think specific trumps general.

Keld Denar
2010-08-13, 02:43 PM
Actually, I think in this case Primary Source beats Specific vs General. Nothing can over-ride the PHB without explicitly calling it out. Especially since its clearly a typo, given that out of the what...25 base classes published, no other class has it, including Factotum which is more of a skill based character than Swordsage is.

true_shinken
2010-08-13, 03:28 PM
Actually, I think specific trumps general.

The FAQ adresses this, I believe.

TechnOkami
2010-08-13, 11:01 PM
Just a curious chain breaker of answers with a question: What's chaos monk?

And where can I find it?

dgnslyr
2010-08-13, 11:12 PM
It's bothered me that Desert Wind has no counterpart of a different element. I wonder if you could ask your DM for a homebrew feat, Arctic Wind, that lets you make all your Desert Wind Maneuvers deal ice instead of fire damage. You'd have to specify it'll be ice instead of fire when you ready it, so you still need to plan ahead, or use Adaptive Style. Just throwing an idea out there.