[3.5] Level 5 Hard-to-Kill Character

[Warclam]

I'm going to be playing in a one-shot level 5 campaign, with the premise that the party is caught between two armies and with survival as the goal. We have been promised that it will be very difficult, but due to sneaky tricks and clever tactics rather than sheer overpowered enemies. What kind of character would be best at surviving such peril?

My first thought was a warblade with Iron Heart Surge and the first 2 Diamond Mind save-replacement maneuvers, using a Crown of White Ravens to pick up White Raven Tactics, grab Adaptive Style, and basically spam WRT and AS to give extra turns to whichever of my 5 other party members is most effective that round, only stopping for the occasional use-this-maneuver-to-not-die moment.

However, I'm sure there's a better and less boring build out there, if only I could think of it. Ideally, no prepared spellcasting (I just hate picking daily spells). Allowed sources are anything published by Wizards except "weird old campaign setting stuff". No flaws or traits, LA buyoff allowed. If any more information is needed, please ask.

[Talbot]

Battle Dancer 1/Paladin 2 if you've got a high Cha lets you add it to all four defenses, and your AC will be epic if you use the Unarmored AC variant from Unearthed Arcana. Spend the last two levels on Crusader to get yourself that delayed damage pool and a little bit of self healing and you'll be damned hard to kill (plus still be able to snag White Raven tactic).

[Telonius]

My first thought is Warlock, my second is Beguiler.

[Urpriest]

Elans and Warforged both offer handy ways to avoid starvation/thirst, if the campaign looks like it might tend in that direction. Also, never sleeping.

[HunterOfJello]

Mineral Warrior tempalte.


Use the burrowing speed to burrow a tunnel underneath the battlefield and ignore both armies.

[dgnslyr]

If you have the Martial Spirit stance, which heals you or an ally for 2 hp whenever you hit something with a melee attack, could you get infinite out-of-battle healing by smashing inanimate objects or hitting yourself with a weapon that deals 1 damage?

[Tinydwarfman]

There are plenty of easy ways for you to survive, but do you need you party members to survive as well? That's harder. Also what other party members are there?

[TooManyBadgers]

I feel like at least a dip into Conjurer Wizard is mandatory.

[TheVileVillain]

Play a Human with tow levels in Dread Necromancer (Libris Mortis). Take Tomb-Tainted Soul (Libris Mortis, heal from negative energy) so that you can autoheal 1d8 points of damage each round and get DR 2/Bludgeoning and Magic. Also go for Tomb-Born Fortitude (Libris Mortis, 25% Crit resistance, no massive damage risk). Finish off your 5 levels with Paladin of Tyranny (Unearthed Arcana, This will put your charisma to good use and make you very defensive; You also get more negative energy healing and the oath is less strict than Paladin of Slaughter). For your 3rd level feat take Battle Caster with respect to Dread Necromancer (If you get to 6th I'd take it again and keep going dread necromancer/Paladin evenly) so you can cast in light armor (and later medium).

[true_shinken]

I'd say Elan Crusader is pretty freaking hard to kill, specially so at low levels.

[Warclam]

Hmm, some good ideas here.

I had considered a dread necro; if they're undead/tomb-tainted, the self healing is magnificent, and judicious use of charnel touch+chill touch deals quite respectable damage as a touch.

Crusader is coming up again and again, and I noticed them myself in my independent searches. Zealous Surge is especially nice, I think. Pity the Indomitable Soul doesn't stack with full Divine Grace, but hey, maneuvers. I just wish they had access to diamond mind.

Warlock makes me nervous. I love the class, but at level 5 they're just kinda standing around with their d6 hit die, wishing they could turn invisible. I'm not even sure how many walls there are going to be to spiderwalk up.

Beguiler would be nice for trap-finding purposes, and they are excellent at getting themselves out of trouble. For similar reasons I considered factotum, which is a class I've always wanted to try.

Elan has been mentioned a few times, and I think that's actually a really good point. Say, an Elan psywar with Vigor and the racial ability-boosting feats from Complete Psionic... could be pretty tough.

Warforged immunities are definitely worth considering (my hypothetical raven-happy warblade would probably be one), but their built-in armour really bugs me. It's not really any good, and soaks a feat to make it worthwhile OR to just remove it.


There are plenty of easy ways for you to survive, but do you need you party members to survive as well? That's harder. Also what other party members are there?

I don't particularly, actually. The way it work is, as long as at least 1 PC makes it through the encounter, the others get a free True Resurrection at the end. I don't know what characters they're making, though.

[Thurbane]

Monk? Doesn't everyone say that one of the Monk's biggest deficiencies is that is good at surviving, but not at much else? (All good saves, evasion, fast movement etc.).

[Critical]

Monk? Doesn't everyone say that one of the Monk's biggest deficiencies is that is good at surviving, but not at much else? (All good saves, evasion, fast movement etc.).
The lack of armor kinda hinders here, so unless you rolled two 18's and put them into dex and wis(which is wrong anyway), you're pretty killable.

A controller crusader with a spiked chain should be pretty decent.

[kestrel404]

If you want a nice level 5 warlock for a one-shot, go for a Pixie Warlock. ECL 5. You'll only have 6 HP, but between improved invis, 60' fly speed, DR 10/iron and SR 16, you won't need too much in the way of damage soaking capacity. If you're worried about it, take an 18 toughness and the long-range shape for your eldritch blast.

[Eldariel]

Monk? Doesn't everyone say that one of the Monk's biggest deficiencies is that is good at surviving, but not at much else? (All good saves, evasion, fast movement etc.).

Well, that's mostly people who don't know what they're talking about; Monk isn't terribly good at survival. The good part is All Good Saves (but MAD kinda cuts into each save so they're all "alright", not "awesome"). AC is rather low, HP is rather low, and so on. The Monk's movement bonus is a latebloomer; Barbarian is actually faster on level 5.

Monk's movement bonus doesn't really generate an advantage before it exceeds 30', and flight is commonly available. And yeah, Monk SR comes around 13 and before then, they aren't any better against spells than anyone else. So no, on level 5 I wouldn't go with Monk for survivability.


Druid would actually be fairly good; animal companion is good for protection and you can just ride Dire Bat all day. You also have dozens of survivable Wildshape forms and spells that make locating you a pain (Sleet Storm, for example, makes it an absolute pain to pinpoint you especially if you've invested anything in cross-class Move Silently and have decent Dex).

Monk 2 isn't a horrible start for a martial build either and if it were any higher, I'd consider the Monk 1/Druid -> build as it tends to be quite solid far as survival goes, especially without any items.

[Curmudgeon]

The lack of armor kinda hinders here, so unless you rolled two 18's and put them into dex and wis(which is wrong anyway), you're pretty killable.
They can't kill you if they can't attack you. Use the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil) to go invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds. Pick up the Kung Fu Genius feat (Dragon Compendium) to use INT mod instead of WIS mod for Monk class features, and go for a high-INT Monk. You'll get more skill points so you can max out all the skills you need: Spot (avoid being surprised), Move Silently (move without being noticed), Tumble (move without being attacked), and Sense Motive (avoid being fooled or feinted).

Not quite so killable.

[fryplink]

Well, that's mostly people who don't know what they're talking about; Monk isn't terribly good at survival. The good part is All Good Saves (but MAD kinda cuts into each save so they're all "alright", not "awesome"). AC is rather low, HP is rather low, and so on. The Monk's movement bonus is a latebloomer; Barbarian is actually faster on level 5.


While we're on that thought, maybe barbarian? while not horribly optimized, raging gives you some emergency hit points, and their natural speed and trap sense makes them good for fleeing, raging if HP goes too low, as an additional 20 pts of health make it possible to get the heck outta there and get some healing. The will save bonus isn't great, but its an extra bonus.

The -2 to AC is why you'd use it as a last ditch deal (that and the fact that you only have 2 rages a day)

Maybe barb 3/ rogue 2 (for evasion) to cut down on blaster spell damage. It would weaken his rage (and loose him a daily use) but rage isn't going to be used for fighting, but for getting out, and sneak attack might be more useful for when you actually want to fight things (just make sure you are always flanking) than that daily rage you aren't using until you're almost dead

An aura class might be useful, such as a dip in dragon shaman? (on a different note, not at part of the barb, though I guess you could) for healing aura (could be on marshal (or that one aura class thats not drag sham, I'm really only familiar with that aura class, and iirc a dragonfire adept gets an aura too?) to keep your dying team mates as far from -10 as possible.

[Curmudgeon]

I think you're going to be best served in this one-shot by a template that gives good power for the LA cost.

Feral (Savage Species, page 116) will cost you +1 LA and give you, with 4 class levels:

change type to monstrous humanoid
land speed +10'
+6 natural armor bonus
gain two claw attacks
60' darkvision
fast healing 3
+4 Str, –2 Dex, +2 Con, –4 Int (minimum 2), +2 Wis
change favored class to Barbarian
Other benefits of Feral (Improved Grab, Pounce) only come with monster HD, and you'll much prefer class levels to those.

[Draz74]

I think you're going to be best served in this one-shot by a template that gives good power for the LA cost.

Mineral Warrior (DR 8/adamantine) is another option.

[Gorgondantess]

Mineral Warrior (DR 8/adamantine) is another option.

Feral AND mineral warrior, then warblade 3 for the first 2 big save boosters, probably on a gnome. Massive con, massive AC, good fort saves, and the 1st 2 save boosters, plus fast healing, high DR, and burrow speed. You're pretty much set.

[Escheton]

Commoner/survivor 4

Bab 0 but the perks are great. The prestige survivor is on Savage species.
Also, people will like you, you are a commoner not some arrogant adventurer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just in case its three mentions weren't loud enough, you want to use MINERAL WARRIOR (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)! I'd make the base creature a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1), using the breath aspect. Get Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon, and use that as often as it takes to debuff as many opponents as possible. You can pay 3,000 xp to buy off the +1 LA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) and start out a little bit behind with no level adjustment. Apply Dragonborn first, you lose the Water Orc racial traits but keep the land speed, swim speed, and ability score adjustments, and then apply Mineral Warrior afterward and you get to keep everything it grants. If you pick the Wings aspect instead, you'll still gain a fly speed at your 6th level. Mineral Warrior causes you to lose any current fly speed upon gaining it, but if you later gain the ability to fly it is not retroactively lost.

I'd go single-classed Crusader, with two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Shaky and Murky-Eyed) to get Entangling Exhalation, Stone Power, and Extra Granted Maneuver at 1st level, and probably take either Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) or Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd. With Item Familiar you'd get a 10% XP bonus, which means you'd catch up with everyone else that much faster and eventually pull ahead. Plus you can upgrade it yourself for half price as though you had the item creation feats and spellcasting to do so. If you can't or won't take that, Ancestral Relic will allow you to sacrifice any weapons and armor you recover from fallen foes to put their full value into your relic, which you can then apply toward magic item properties on it.

With DR 8/Adamantine you won't be taking much damage from anything. Use Stone Power as often as possible to gain temporary HP. When you get hit, your DR will be subtracted first, then 10 points will go into your delayed pool, then any remaining damage will be taken off from temporary HP, and finally if there's any damage left after all that it will go to your actual HP as damage. On your next turn you can Stone Power again, with Martial Spirit you'll heal some damage, and when you delayed pool hits it will be subtracted from those temporary HP first and then go to actual HP damage if there's any left. Opponents will be Entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) due to your breath attack, so they'll move at half speed and take penalties to attacks and AC. This will allow your party to use superior positioning and good tactics to gain a significant advantage, plus your foes will have a difficult time striking softer back row characters and will be more likely to focus attacks on you.

[Iferus]

A crusader 4/ warblade 1 can pick up the save maneuvers (initiator level = class level + 1/2 other class levels).

[DaragosKitsune]

Just in case its three mentions weren't loud enough, you want to use MINERAL WARRIOR (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)! I'd make the base creature a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1), using the breath aspect. Get Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon, and use that as often as it takes to debuff as many opponents as possible. You can pay 3,000 xp to buy off the +1 LA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) and start out a little bit behind with no level adjustment. Apply Dragonborn first, you lose the Water Orc racial traits but keep the land speed, swim speed, and ability score adjustments, and then apply Mineral Warrior afterward and you get to keep everything it grants. If you pick the Wings aspect instead, you'll still gain a fly speed at your 6th level. Mineral Warrior causes you to lose any current fly speed upon gaining it, but if you later gain the ability to fly it is not retroactively lost.

I'd go single-classed Crusader, with two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Shaky and Murky-Eyed) to get Entangling Exhalation, Stone Power, and Extra Granted Maneuver at 1st level, and probably take either Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) or Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd. With Item Familiar you'd get a 10% XP bonus, which means you'd catch up with everyone else that much faster and eventually pull ahead. Plus you can upgrade it yourself for half price as though you had the item creation feats and spellcasting to do so. If you can't or won't take that, Ancestral Relic will allow you to sacrifice any weapons and armor you recover from fallen foes to put their full value into your relic, which you can then apply toward magic item properties on it.

With DR 8/Adamantine you won't be taking much damage from anything. Use Stone Power as often as possible to gain temporary HP. When you get hit, your DR will be subtracted first, then 10 points will go into your delayed pool, then any remaining damage will be taken off from temporary HP, and finally if there's any damage left after all that it will go to your actual HP as damage. On your next turn you can Stone Power again, with Martial Spirit you'll heal some damage, and when you delayed pool hits it will be subtracted from those temporary HP first and then go to actual HP damage if there's any left. Opponents will be Entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) due to your breath attack, so they'll move at half speed and take penalties to attacks and AC. This will allow your party to use superior positioning and good tactics to gain a significant advantage, plus your foes will have a difficult time striking softer back row characters and will be more likely to focus attacks on you.

Um, you just described everything the original post said wasn't allowed. The rules were no obscure sources, no flaws, no traits, and no LA buyoff.

Edit: Okay, the OP wasn't quite clear on whether LA buyoff was allowed. Confirmation please.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Um, you just described everything the original post said wasn't allowed. The rules were no obscure sources, no flaws, no traits, and no LA buyoff.

Edit: Okay, the OP wasn't quite clear on whether LA buyoff was allowed. Confirmation please.

Fair enough no flaws, but "weird old campaign setting stuff" isn't exactly specific. Mineral Warrior is in a 3.5 FR book, not exactly old or weird, plus anyone can get it from their website. "LA buyoff allowed" looks like it is allowed.

In light of a lack of flaws, I'd say either keep Entangling Exhalation, maybe get Stone Power at 3rd if you think it's necessary, or get the Wings aspect and keep Stone Power. Extra Granted Maneuver is pretty necessary, as it turns your maneuvers into a 3-round cycle instead of a 4-round cycle, but you can pick it up at 6th.

[Warclam]

Sorry for slow replying. LA buyoff is indeed allowed, sorry about the unclear wording.

I really doubt I'd be able to get Feral allowed, but it's conceivable my DM wouldn't ban Mineral Warrior. Not likely, though.

I must say, I quite like the Invisible Fist monk. Kinda like the cool parts of a ninja, only more defensive. It only requires 2 levels of monk, too, which is where all the good saves are. Rounding it off with crusader seems like a good idea. Problem is, this has gotten unbelievably MAD. Maybe go warblade instead, take Kung-Fu Genius as suggested and grab the Diamond Mind save-replacers. If we get to level 6, I'll have a high enough initiator level to grab Iron Heart Surge.

Alternatively, go unarmed swordsage instead and stay wisdom-based while still wearing actual armour (lose armour proficiencies, but can just wear armour with no ACP, and maneuvers replace flurry) and maintaining full unarmed strike damage, again getting the Diamond Mind maneuvers but going Shadow Blade for the Dex-to-Damage. A halfling would work well for that (strongheart, likely, or just keep the extra saves), and can even get Weapon Finesse as the 2nd-level monk feat with the RotW sub levels. I like this one best, I think. Lessens MAD and has very high saves, and some great defensive options. Weakest is Fort saves (2 lower and no maneuver), but even there the problem is that they're just good rather than excellent.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

EDIT: Noticed the Sleeping Tiger discipline for monks in Unearthed Arcana, giving Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative as bonus feats. Looks perfect, though deflect arrows might have been fun. Also, hide bonus! Since halfling is no longer necessary, maybe I'll break out the ridiculous excellence that is the whisper gnome. Con bonus, woohoo!

[Escheton]

Hmm...

Shadow creature Azurin human or strongheart halfling mineral warrior, no flaws. Lvl 1 feats: Azure toughness, Trollblooded. LA 3. Classes: Binder 2
This nets you: fast healing 2, regeneration 1, 50% misschance in anything short of full daylight. 10 fire resist, acid resist 5, 1d6 firedmg to any who actually hit you.
And some more less relevant stuff.

[Altissimus]

Hi,

A few folk have mentioned "stone power" - please can you provide source and/or description for this?

Many thanks,

A.

[Eldariel]

It's from Tome of Battle.

[Grynning]

Hi,

A few folk have mentioned "stone power" - please can you provide source and/or description for this?

Many thanks,

A.

It's a feat from Tome of Battle. It gives you some temp HP when you hit things, and can substitute for power attack for qualifying for other feats and PrCs.

[Altissimus]

It's a feat from Tome of Battle. It gives you some temp HP when you hit things, and can substitute for power attack for qualifying for other feats and PrCs.

Thanks.




....and up to 10 characters...

[Starbuck_II]

Hard to kill or impossible?
Because you can be immortal in the dying sense by by 6th ECL:
Multi-headed (2 heads, Lernean) Lumi.
Yes, it gives you another head, but you are immortal.
ECL 6, but can we lower that somehow (2 Base + 2 from extra Head=4 HD +2 LA)?

[aeauseth]

If you have the Martial Spirit stance, which heals you or an ally for 2 hp whenever you hit something with a melee attack, could you get infinite out-of-battle healing by smashing inanimate objects or hitting yourself with a weapon that deals 1 damage?

I'm new to ToB but I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. The visual text is:


As you cleave through your foes, each ferocious attack you make lends vigor and strength to you and your allies.

And selected excerpts:


This healing represents the vigor, drive, and toughness you inspire in others. Your connection to the divine causes such inspiration to have a real, tangible effect on your allies’ health. Each time you hit an opponent in melee...

So that inanimate object isn't a foe or opponent, and I don't see how smashing objects is going to inspire others. By RAW it's pretty cheesy, and by RAI it just doesn't seem to make sense.

[ericgrau]

If it's a one shot and you won't be gaining any more levels then toughness is actually a pretty good feat. But by the way your DM described it I think he expects things like invisibility and silence to get you out of there, and for that party coordination will be key. Even if you aren't the caster potions may help. Do take 10s on move silently rolls, as it only takes one botched roll in the party to screw you. Illusions, fog and so on might also help. For example a sleet storm is a good way to advance 80 feet towards freedom, or delay an 80 foot wide army long enough for you to get away. Mobility like fly might also help, but again you need a way for it to make the whole party safe. Also, archers. Disguising yourself as members of one army and moving backwards may help, or may lead to "comrades" saying "Hey, why aren't you fighting". Maybe pretend to be medics and haul a couple bodies.

[aeauseth]

A crusader 4/ warblade 1 can pick up the save maneuvers (initiator level = class level + 1/2 other class levels).

I second this suggestion.

Lots of maneuvers & stances to pick from. Make sure you seperate your crusader/warblade maneuvers because they are granted/recovered in different fashions. Steely resolve 10 + Stone Power Feat + high AC + Crusader’s Strike + Martial Spirit should make you very solid. You have a good Fort, Reflex shouldn't matter much (you have high HP), and Zealous surge + Moment of Perfect Mind should offset most Will issues.