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Edhelras
2010-08-13, 04:08 PM
Hi, I'm not very familiar with playing clerics, and have some questions:

I'm playing the game Cormyr: the tearing of the weave, and the party has managed to capture the two clerics Fembrys (Clr5 of Shar) and Shan Thar (Clr3 of Cyric) plus the sorceror Kevrin (Sor1). The villains are being kept in a locked room, securely bound (with high Use Rope checks) and gagged, but not under continuous surveillance while the party rests and prepares for interrogating the prisoners and pressing further into the temple.

What I wonder is: Will the two clerics, who have expended their spells, be able to gain new spells in this condition - bound and gagged?
I'm uncertain whether this state is too rigorous for them to be able to properly meditate for new spells.
Moreover, does praying for new spells require the priest to be able to actually speak out loud?

Both have had their holy symbols removed - are those absolutely necessary to be able to pray for new spells? And - are only the spells denoted with "DF" - divine focus - dependant on the holy symbol being available for the priest to cast his spells?

Finally, are there any cleric spells that can be cast while gagged and bound? (the clerics don't have metamagic feast like still spell)

The essence of my questions is: Is it safe to leave a captured cleric (at these levels, 3 and 5) in jail if gagged and bound but unobserved - or would that be foolhardy because the priest could use his jail time to receive spells that would allow him to either break his bonds or for instance control his prison guards?

Snake-Aes
2010-08-13, 04:12 PM
Hmm, that's sort of thrown in the limbo. They need "peace to pray and meditate yadda yadda". If the dm thinks they can pray to their gods in peace while bound and gagged, then they can prepare spells.


The surefire way to keep them from preparing spells is having an ethereal version of Elan having a chat with the clerics.

Spiryt
2010-08-13, 04:19 PM
Llolth clerics then, I would guess... :smallamused:

Drogorn
2010-08-13, 04:20 PM
Well, you say that guards are present, so why not instruct the guards to slap the clerics around a bit every half hour or so? That would interrupt any possibility of them regaining spells.

true_shinken
2010-08-13, 04:24 PM
I'd say they can regain spells.
In book 2 of Year of Rogue Dragons, a cleric of Pelor is constantly harassed by an ogre during sunrise to prevent him from regaining spells. He manages to get a few spells just fine - just enough to aid his halfling fellow in the task of recuing him from aforementioned ogre.
That's the only time I ever saw this come up.

Edhelras
2010-08-13, 04:24 PM
No - the point was that guards were not present, sorry if I misstated? What I wonder is if it's all right to tight the bastards tightly and then get some well-deserved rest?

The party is pretty weary after a long midnight fight. They all need to rest, and besides they need to keep watch at two entrances at least.

true_shinken
2010-08-13, 04:26 PM
No - the point was that guards were not present, sorry if I misstated? What I wonder is if it's all right to tight the bastards tightly and then get some well-deserved rest?

The party is pretty weary after a long midnight fight. They all need to rest, and besides they need to keep watch at two entrances at least.

I'd say they need Knowledge (religion) checks to figure out at which time those clerics regain spells. Dunno about other settings, but this is FR - each deity in FR bestows spells at an specific time of the day.

jiriku
2010-08-13, 04:29 PM
I'd say the clerics are secured and can be safely left alone. You want to encourage prisoner-taking, as it can lead to interrogation, exposition, plot hooks, dramatic roleplaying, and all sorts of good things.

If captive spellcasters can routinely acquire spells, escape, and wreak all sorts of mayhem even when tightly bound with their holy symbols confiscated, you're simply encouraging players to take no prisoners and kill everyone they fight, which is boring. Allowing them to safely keep prisoners as long as they take reasonable precautions (which they have) is a good idea.

Edhelras
2010-08-13, 04:31 PM
I'd say they can regain spells.
In book 2 of Year of Rogue Dragons, a cleric of Pelor is constantly harassed by an ogre during sunrise to prevent him from regaining spells. He manages to get a few spells just fine - just enough to aid his halfling fellow in the task of recuing him from aforementioned ogre.
That's the only time I ever saw this come up.

If I was Shar or Cyric, surely I would be lenient towards my cleric, being kept in a tight spot by the agents of good (a paladin among them, no less), and give him the spells he might need to exact revenge.

If no rules exist on this topic: These guys are bound pretty tightly, by the excellent rogue. I was wondering if a CON check (with a DC of 15, for instance) would be required to see if the bound clerics were tackling their condition well enough to meditate. Or of course a Concentration check (with DC 15 + lvl of highest spell they might pray for) to be able to meditate properly. Would this be about right?

But anyway I don't know how much use it would be to the priests as long as they were being kept helpless at the moment their gags were taken off for interrrogation, and they don't have the Quickened feat.

Drogorn
2010-08-13, 04:31 PM
If this is a temporary thing, you could just knock them out. Can't regain spells while unconscious. Also, the requirement is that they have a relatively peaceful environment, so sticking them somewhere they'd have water dripping on them constantly would prevent them from gaining spells as well. Just make sure they can't wiggle away from it. Using three ropes tied to objects in a room will prevent motion in any direction.

Edhelras
2010-08-13, 04:32 PM
I'd say they need Knowledge (religion) checks to figure out at which time those clerics regain spells. Dunno about other settings, but this is FR - each deity in FR bestows spells at an specific time of the day.

The party cleric is devoted to Deneir and is pretty well versed in Knowl religion, yes.

Edhelras
2010-08-13, 04:34 PM
If this is a temporary thing, you could just knock them out. Can't regain spells while unconscious. Also, the requirement is that they have a relatively peaceful environment, so sticking them somewhere they'd have water dripping on them constantly would prevent them from gaining spells as well. Just make sure they can't wiggle away from it. Using three ropes tied to objects in a room will prevent motion in any direction.

The most dangerous of them was indeed knocked out during the fight, but he was stabilized by the cleric (for the purpose of later interrogation) and then he regained consciousness during the night.

Edhelras
2010-08-13, 04:36 PM
I'd say the clerics are secured and can be safely left alone. You want to encourage prisoner-taking, as it can lead to interrogation, exposition, plot hooks, dramatic roleplaying, and all sorts of good things.

If captive spellcasters can routinely acquire spells, escape, and wreak all sorts of mayhem even when tightly bound with their holy symbols confiscated, you're simply encouraging players to take no prisoners and kill everyone they fight, which is boring. Allowing them to safely keep prisoners as long as they take reasonable precautions (which they have) is a good idea.

Very good point, of course, and if noparticular rules exist on this it still does make sense. I was thinking it might create tension if the party had to be nervous about their captives. Also, I was thinking what would I do if I played a cleric and was captured.

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-13, 04:37 PM
At best, I'd probably rule that they need a concentration check of DC 15 + Use Rope check result + spell level in order to meditate.

I partly agree on the point of not discouraging the taking of prisoners, though, so I would likely rule that with reasonable precautions (which seem to have been taken) they should be just fine. I might have the clerics regain a couple low level spells to use in an attempt to escape, to kind of drive home the point 'you really need to watch certain prisoners, not just leave them tied up' but unless they're meant to be particularly powerful or important NPC's, I wouldn't intentionally have them do anything too effective.

Edhelras
2010-08-13, 04:41 PM
Thanks everybody for very swift and nice response!

Trying to hit the balance here between making the heroes feel unsecure, and as you said encouraging their prisoner-taking and information-gathering. Many good contributions here.

jiriku
2010-08-13, 04:47 PM
Very good point, of course, and if noparticular rules exist on this it still does make sense. I was thinking it might create tension if the party had to be nervous about their captives. Also, I was thinking what would I do if I played a cleric and was captured.

Watch Mission Impossible III, the scene where the team has just captured Owen Davian and is trying to interrogate him while in their plane. Davian is stone-cold terrifying, even while bound and totally helpless. He never flinches, even when Ethan flips out and dangles him out the plane. Good inspiration.

Crasical
2010-08-13, 04:58 PM
This thread title sounds like a fetish magazine for Drow or something. The Condition Summary states that being bound like that is considered equivalent of being paralyzed, sleeping, or unconcious, but the detail for being a cleric just says that they must spend an hour 'in quiet contemplation or supplication'.

If they're securely tied but left alone without someone repeatedly poking them during the specific hour of the day that they must pray, I'd say they could regain spells, but would be unable to cast them until they where untied.

ericgrau
2010-08-13, 05:05 PM
Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells.

It seems like they can regain their spells. But they can't cast them unless they have silent spell, as their spells all have a verbal component and most have a somatic component. About half require a holy symbol. I agree stick poking, loud noises, etc. would prevent them from regaining spells due to "quiet contemplation or supplication".

Don't forget the free +10 you got on your use rope check. This'll be important b/c the ones tied up can keep re-rolling every minute or take a 20 on their check after 20 minutes.

Kaeso
2010-08-13, 05:46 PM
I think they could, but they wouldn't be able to cast 90% of their spells, since most of them have either one or more of the following:
-somatic components
-verbal components.
-material components.

Aroka
2010-08-13, 06:40 PM
Only spells with a Divine Focus component are dependent on having a holy symbol.

Boci
2010-08-13, 06:52 PM
-verbal components.


So the OP will need to be careful when they ungag them for the interogation.

Edhelras
2010-08-14, 05:42 AM
The rogue tied them up and she rolled obscenely high Use Rope rolls, pluss the 10+. There is no way any of those low-DEX clerics could ever escape, not until the ropes themselves start to rot...

I wait with excitement, though, for those gags to be removed...

Part of my uncertainty was due to my lack of complete knowledge about the several divine spells added through different source books. Given that a cleric can access any spell offered by his deity, there is no way knowing what they might come up with...

Reynard
2010-08-14, 05:57 AM
I can't find the site, but I remember that there was a complete database of all of the 3.5 spells, and filters for find spells with specific components.

IIRC, there are a few, a very slim few, Divine spells that have no Verbal, Somatic, or Divine Focus requirements.

Rannil
2010-08-14, 06:11 AM
I can't find the site, but I remember that there was a complete database of all of the 3.5 spells, and filters for find spells with specific components.

IIRC, there are a few, a very slim few, Divine spells that have no Verbal, Somatic, or Divine Focus requirements.

You mean this site (http://www.imarvintpa.com/DnDLive/FindSpell.php)?

It finds two spells that doesn't have a verbal and somatic component, only one of those can be cast at the levels of the clerics mentioned.

Spiders legs.

Reynard
2010-08-14, 06:40 AM
Yes, that's it. *bookmarks*

Sadly, my search fu is weak today. What does that spell do?

Rannil
2010-08-14, 08:08 AM
Yes, that's it. *bookmarks*

Sadly, my search fu is weak today. What does that spell do?


You grow long spider legs that have a speed of 30 ft. and move on vertical surfaces.

At least, that's what the site says (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=5595), I'm to lazy to search op the spell in it's book.

Reynard
2010-08-14, 09:00 AM
Well, that's an escape route for the cleric then. These new legs won't be bound, after all.

Though it does seem like a spell only a Drow cleric would ever actually use.

Shademan
2010-08-14, 09:04 AM
Am I the only one who opened this thread, hoping for the missadventures of a bondage prone cleric?
or some fun build like that?

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-14, 10:38 AM
Am I the only one who opened this thread, hoping for the missadventures of a bondage prone cleric?
or some fun build like that?

You're not. :smallwink::smallamused:

Lysander
2010-08-14, 10:51 AM
What level are the clerics? Word of Recall is a 6th level spell that only has a verbal component. The spell teleports the caster to a safe place, it's the first thing they would try to cast when the gag is taken off, if they have 6th level spells.

Boci
2010-08-14, 10:54 AM
What level are the clerics? Word of Recall is a 6th level spell that only has a verbal component. The spell teleports the caster to a safe place, it's the first thing they would try to cast when the gag is taken off, if they have 6th level spells.

Its in the 2nd and 3rd line of the opening post. The spell you mentioned if higher than their levels.

Lysander
2010-08-14, 11:47 AM
Its in the 2nd and 3rd line of the opening post. The spell you mentioned if higher than their levels.

Doh, my mistake.

What are their domains? Perhaps there's a domain power that could help them.

tyckspoon
2010-08-14, 12:18 PM
If any of them are Strength 16 or higher, they can also break standard rope bonds with a DC 23 Strength check. It's unlikely, but possible, and if one of them meets that requirement they are guaranteed to get free eventually.. so don't leave them unobserved if one of 'em happens to be muscled like a Fighter.

Crasical
2010-08-14, 03:18 PM
Am I the only one who opened this thread, hoping for the missadventures of a bondage prone cleric?
or some fun build like that?


You're not. :smallwink::smallamused:

... So should someone get to work on writing fiction about a playful, free spirited chaos-domain cleric and his/her fateful run-in with a smouldering anti-hero of a Justiciar with a tendancy using his hog-tie class ability on those that annoy him?

Is there a demand for this? :smallwink:

EDIT:

Doh, my mistake.

What are their domains? Perhaps there's a domain power that could help them.

Travel Domain lets you use Freedom of Movement as a supernatural ability, they could use that even bound-and-gagged if they had it, at least theoretically.

EDIT AGAIN:

Neither Shar nor Cyric have it listed under their domains though.

Edhelras
2010-08-14, 04:16 PM
The clerics are level 5 and 3.

I couldn't find that spell Spider legs, where is it listed? I would be a nice way out for captive clerics, if they were able to cast it while bound and gagged (and yes, if you like, in an appropriate black leather outfit....:smallbiggrin: ). They might be able to climb high up in that room (which is the access-room to the walls, with a trap door in the ceiling) and jump down on anyone entering their prison.

Edhelras
2010-08-14, 04:24 PM
The clerics aren 't nearly strong enough to break the ropes. And I guess "Aid another" won't help them here either...
The bounds are tied with Use rope checks where the rogue rolled 15-20-ish, she has +4 to DEX and some ranks in Use rope, pluss the +10 for binding people - there is no way a sluggish cleric can wriggle out of those.

The Freedom of movement thingy was interesting, though.

On another note - does anyone have any nice stories of characters/parties being bound and escaping in surprising/creative ways (I mean, not just using STR or Escape artist?)

Reynard
2010-08-14, 04:37 PM
The clerics are level 5 and 3.

I couldn't find that spell Spider legs, where is it listed?

Book of Vile Darkness.

Marnath
2010-08-14, 05:00 PM
It was my uderstanding that you had to be holding your holy symbol during meditation to get spells. Maybe that's just something i houseruled. Also, to the OP, double and triple posting is really frowned upon on these forums. If you have something to add, you should use the edit button.

Marillion
2010-08-14, 10:30 PM
The clerics aren 't nearly strong enough to break the ropes. And I guess "Aid another" won't help them here either...
The bounds are tied with Use rope checks where the rogue rolled 15-20-ish, she has +4 to DEX and some ranks in Use rope, pluss the +10 for binding people - there is no way a sluggish cleric can wriggle out of those.

The Freedom of movement thingy was interesting, though.

On another note - does anyone have any nice stories of characters/parties being bound and escaping in surprising/creative ways (I mean, not just using STR or Escape artist?)

I have a friend who, in a game 20 years ago, created the Order of the Adamantine Tooth Pick.

By hiding their Adamantine tooth picks in their mouth when they were captured and thrown in jail, they kept their tooth picks unnoticed by their guards. They then proceeded to lean on the wall and tap on it with their picks, going completely ignored by the guards until they carved a hole in their cell wall, one pin prick at a time.

They just had to be VERY careful when using their picks for their intended purpose.

Lysander
2010-08-14, 11:52 PM
Travel Domain lets you use Freedom of Movement as a supernatural ability, they could use that even bound-and-gagged if they had it, at least theoretically.

EDIT AGAIN:

Neither Shar nor Cyric have it listed under their domains though.

The travel domain freedom of movement seems to only work against magic though. And I think freedom of movement might not even work against ropes, it's not mentioned in the spell description. Of course that's not an issue since it isn't their domain.

What are Shar and Cyric's domains? If one of them has the darkness domain the cleric could try casting Blindness on someone since that only has a verbal component. It probably wouldn't help them escape, it'd just be them trying to harm the heroes. And the strength domain power might help them break their bonds.

Also, about the holy symbol - does it say anywhere that it has to be a wooden or silver item? Could they theoretically draw their holy symbol in dirt and use that? Or carve it into their own skin?

Edhelras
2010-08-15, 02:23 AM
It was my uderstanding that you had to be holding your holy symbol during meditation to get spells. Maybe that's just something i houseruled. Also, to the OP, double and triple posting is really frowned upon on these forums. If you have something to add, you should use the edit button.

Wow! I'm used to being OWNED and PWNED, but now I'm being FROWNED as well! :smallmad:

The Spider Legs spell seems interesting, I don't have the Book of Vile Darkness, but in the notice on the link, it just says "Clr2" - so I guess every lvl 2 cleric can pray for it? Not a domain spell, no restrictions - or so it appears. Would need to tie the clerics securely to something then.

The Blindness spell was a great idea - the lvl 5 clr does indeed have Darkness domain, but again it seems like every Clr can access it. So, based on that, you should be at least TWO persons present when un-gagging a captive cleric of lvl 5. I didn't realize that spell was so dangerous...


One thing I've a problem with, concerning Clerics: Do they instinctively know each and every spell that they can ask their deity for? Like these Spider Legs - will any cleric reaching lvl 3 automatically know that now he can pray for Spider legs - even though that spell is only found in a source book? I mean, short of metagaming - how will clerics know exactly the usefulness and possibilities of all the spells on their spell list? It's easier to understand with Wizards, who study or copy their spells, or Sorcerers who mystically harness the power of a limited number of arcane spells. But there is something of a discrepancy with the vast array of available divine spells, and the lack of INT and Spellcraft needed for your average cleric. Perhaps this knowledge is transferred through the religious hierarchy?
Or - is it more that the cleric, when praying, describes his needs and challenges awaiting, and then the deity provides him with spells suitable for overcoming those challenges?

Rannil
2010-08-15, 02:36 AM
One thing I've a problem with, concerning Clerics: Do they instinctively know each and every spell that they can ask their deity for?

By RAW yes. In practice not always.

But no worries for the spiders legs. I checked the book of vile darkness and it does mention both a V and a S as components. I guess the database was wrong. The other spell as well. Which leaves clerics with no spells that lack both a verbal and somatic component.

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-15, 06:26 AM
One thing I've a problem with, concerning Clerics: Do they instinctively know each and every spell that they can ask their deity for? Like these Spider Legs - will any cleric reaching lvl 3 automatically know that now he can pray for Spider legs - even though that spell is only found in a source book? I mean, short of metagaming - how will clerics know exactly the usefulness and possibilities of all the spells on their spell list? It's easier to understand with Wizards, who study or copy their spells, or Sorcerers who mystically harness the power of a limited number of arcane spells. But there is something of a discrepancy with the vast array of available divine spells, and the lack of INT and Spellcraft needed for your average cleric. Perhaps this knowledge is transferred through the religious hierarchy?
Or - is it more that the cleric, when praying, describes his needs and challenges awaiting, and then the deity provides him with spells suitable for overcoming those challenges?
Generally speaking, I would say that since the cleric is receiving her spells directly from a deity, her goddess simply grants her the knowledge of all the possible spells she can choose from. That's the most logical explanation in my mind for why most divine casters always know all possible spells on their list.

Your explanation of the deity providing the suitable spells sort of makes sense, but that doesn't really account for bad choices by the cleric's player. Since the deity presumably knows what the cleric is going to face, why wouldn't they assign them exactly the right spells to deal with the situation that's upcoming? The other thing is it implies a hell of a lot more personal attention from the deity to each of her clerics than is generally considered the norm. Gods are after all, generally considered to be aware of stuff, but not really paying a hell of a lot of attention most of the time. If they had to choose spells for each and every one of their clerics, every day, that's a lot of time and effort spent toward that end.

Trickywiggy
2010-08-15, 06:31 AM
If this is a temporary thing, you could just knock them out. Can't regain spells while unconscious. Also, the requirement is that they have a relatively peaceful environment, so sticking them somewhere they'd have water dripping on them constantly would prevent them from gaining spells as well. Just make sure they can't wiggle away from it. Using three ropes tied to objects in a room will prevent motion in any direction.

When my party captured a lich and wanted to interrogate him we bound him in chains and hung him in rapids under a waterfall, the dm took it.

Grumman
2010-08-15, 06:36 AM
... So should someone get to work on writing fiction about a playful, free spirited chaos-domain cleric and his/her fateful run-in with a smouldering anti-hero of a Justiciar with a tendancy using his hog-tie class ability on those that annoy him?

Is there a demand for this? :smallwink:
I'd read it. :smallwink:


Or - is it more that the cleric, when praying, describes his needs and challenges awaiting, and then the deity provides him with spells suitable for overcoming those challenges?
This is the answer I prefer. It strengthens the point that a cleric or paladin is working with another sentient being when they prepare and cast spells.

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-15, 07:10 AM
This is the answer I prefer. It strengthens the point that a cleric or paladin is working with another sentient being when they prepare and cast spells.
How do you explain the holes I mentioned above, then? That the god would have to pay a lot more individual attention to each cleric than it's typically presumed they do, and that they should be able to use their divine knowledge to simply give their cleric exactly the right spells for whatever's coming up?

If the deity is going to be personally and actively involved in granting spells each and every time, it would make no sense for them to grant any spells but the exact ones the cleric will need to overcome the challenges which await her.

Typically the granting of spells seems to be implied to be more of an autonomous function of being a god, kind of like breathing. Unless you pause to actually focus on it for a moment, you just do it naturally without focusing any actual attention upon it. Only when they want to specifically deny a cleric spells, or otherwise get directly involved, do they need to actually pay attention.

Lysander
2010-08-15, 07:59 AM
Actually, there are prayer books that clerics can learn spells from like this one: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a

So clerics do not automatically know every spell they can potentially cast. I think every spell requires a different prayer. We can assume they know core spells since those are well known prayers but anything from some obscure sourcebook probably has to be learned first. Unlike wizards there's no requirement to write it down, but they still need to find it.

Riffington
2010-08-15, 08:30 AM
A few things:
1.
If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible
So knowing when clerics pray is not super important, unless you are telling them what spells to pray for and torturing them if they pray wrong. "But I'm sorry I don't pray that way". If all you are doing is interrupting, you are in trouble: a cleric has to pray for an hour for the spells, doesn't have to sleep, and can't prepare spells into unused slots, but is otherwise like a wizard. So really, 15 uninterrupted minutes is all the cleric needs to pray, if she's just looking for a quarter of her spells.
2. Spider legs may give you new legs, but surely you've been bound to something (unless they want you writhing all over the floor and cutting your bonds against some sharp object), and those legs don't give you super strength like a spider-related superhero.
3. ungagging a cleric isn't insanely dangerous. Just have some minions ready some actions to interrupt any spell; clerics rarely have the bluff required to disguise their spellcasting. What to interrupt with? Re-gagging? Tickling? (Non?)lethal sneak attack?
4. Were I this cleric's deity, I would teach her a new spell. One whose only component is suffering.
5. Yes, of course Shar has Darkness domain. Actually, "has" is a funny word. Perhaps you could say she is the Darkness domain.

Crasical
2010-08-16, 05:53 PM
A few things:
What to interrupt with? Re-gagging? Tickling? (Non?)lethal sneak attack?

Unarmed nonlethal sneak attack.

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