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Scarey Nerd
2010-08-14, 10:07 AM
I am going to be playing in an Evil campaign in the next month or so, and am going to be playing a Changeling. However, I am not sure what I want to have as my class progression.

I'm torn between:
Rogue 20/Assassin 10
and
Factotum 20/Chameleon 10

Opinions, suggestions and musings welcome :smallsmile:

Tetrasodium
2010-08-14, 10:26 AM
A couple other good options that you might also want to check out are cabinet trickster from... races of eberron I think. Gives you back some of the doppelganger abilities stripped away as changelings went from doppelganger>changeling through breeding. Just talk to your DM and see if they will let you bump the DC of the CT abilities based on the level of something else similar to how paladin's can stack levels of certain classes for determining various paladin skills. Mindspy from complete warrior also adds some nifty stuff to the detect thoughts from CT (multiple targets at once, all 3 rounds at once, AC/tohit bonus's while reading thoughts, make concentration check next round instead of this one, etc)

While you are at it, look up shiftweave, it's clothing that can transmute itself into other types of clothing. Also persona immersion (I think?) lets you count as other species for purposes of meeting the use requirements of stuff, very useful in some cases :).

I think really it depends on what kind of character you want to play. Changelings are somewhat limited compared to just being human or something if you aren't making good use of their shape change ability. What sort of character concept do you have in mind that led you to those choices?

Admiral Squish
2010-08-14, 10:29 AM
Among my favorites: Rogue 10/cabinet trickster 5/ mindspy 5/ assassin 10. Assuming you're going to 30 as demonstrated with the other builds.

Rogue/assasin grant sneak attacks. Cabinet trickster both improves your shapeshifting and grants detect thoughts and though tricks. Now, normally, these would be mostly useless abilities. But once you get into mindspy, you really come into power. AC bonus against most enemies, you get to read every thought on the battlefield, get four rounds of concentration with a free action, then can spend a swift action each turn to stun an opponent. If you really want to focus on the shifting, add in 4 levels of warshaper. Fast healing, stat bonuses, natural weapons mean you never have to hide a dagger again, and stretchy arms.

Scarey Nerd
2010-08-14, 10:31 AM
A couple other good options that you might also want to check out are cabinet trickster from... races of eberron I think. Gives you back some of the doppelganger abilities stripped away as changelings went from doppelganger>changeling through breeding. Just talk to your DM and see if they will let you bump the DC of the CT abilities based on the level of something else similar to how paladin's can stack levels of certain classes for determining various paladin skills. Mindspy from complete warrior also adds some nifty stuff to the detect thoughts from CT (multiple targets at once, all 3 rounds at once, AC/tohit bonus's while reading thoughts, make concentration check next round instead of this one, etc)

While you are at it, look up shiftweave, it's clothing that can transmute itself into other types of clothing. Also persona immersion (I think?) lets you count as other species for purposes of meeting the use requirements of stuff, very useful in some cases :).

I think really it depends on what kind of character you want to play. Changelings are somewhat limited compared to just being human or something if you aren't making good use of their shape change ability. What sort of character concept do you have in mind that led you to those choices?

OK, I'm gonna respond to each part seperately:

1. I looked at Cabinet Trickster, but I just wasn't fond of the idea of it, as I would never really be having much contact with the cabinet.
2. I haven't heard of shiftweave, but I was going to get a Vestment of Many Styles from RoE.
3. As to persona immersion, I would probably get that if I went down the Rogue route.
4. I essentially have two character concepts, one for each build. For the Rogue/Assassin build, I intend to be a master of Disguise and Bluff, infiltrating enemies with ease and taking out targets without anyone realising something was amiss. For the Factotum/Chameleon build, I intend to be a master of disguise again, but rather than disguising myself as specific people like the Rogue, I would disguise myself as different roles.

Tetrasodium
2010-08-14, 10:34 AM
natural weapons mean you never have to hide a dagger again, and stretchy arms.

Amulet of natural weapons from savage species (?) becomes insanely useful at that point as well. It does absolutely nothing when in the form of most "civilized" species, and can just be bluffed off as a trophy from a savage beast one of my guards/ancestors/children/whatever took or something if any NPC's ever give you gruff about taking something dangerous in. If your impersonating someone important, that's easy to get by :). Magic Item Compendium also has little doodads (weapon orbs?) you can attach to it for various additional effects like a d6 of fire/acid/cold damage or ghost touch among other things.

FMArthur
2010-08-14, 11:11 AM
Between Chameleon and Assassin... Chameleons outclass Assassins fairly completely at what they do, and is superior by leaps and bounds at casting Assassin spells, if that's what you're after. Death Attack is useless so don't cripple your party by trying to use it. The Sneak Attack is harder to replace but a Chameleon still gets it in a limited way, and you have tons of Chameleon spellcasting and Factotum options for damage that isn't defeated by undead, constructs and certain kinds of armor. Despite your having two different concepts in mind, Assassin is actually kind of a weak class and Chameleon is rather strong... you would be better off doing either kind of character with a Chameleon.

In case those will be the actual order of your class levels... generally it's best to get into Chameleon as early as it allows you to, since it will fade in power later on, especially after 20 levels of another class. I prefer Factotum 5, but many choose Factotum 8 as a break point. I have my doubts that anything but a full caster will be of any use to you at level 30, though. :smallconfused:

Scarey Nerd
2010-08-14, 11:14 AM
Between Chameleon and Assassin... Chameleons outclass Assassins fairly completely at what they do, and is superior by leaps and bounds at casting Assassin spells, if that's what you're after. Death Attack is useless so don't cripple your party by trying to use it. The Sneak Attack is harder to replace but a Chameleon still gets it in a limited way, and you have tons of Chameleon spellcasting and Factotum options for damage that isn't defeated by undead, constructs and certain kinds of armor.

In case those will be the actual order of your class levels... generally it's best to get into Chameleon as early as it allows you to, since it will fade in power later on, especially after 20 levels of another class. I prefer Factotum 5, but many choose Factotum 8 as a break point. I have my doubts that anything but a full caster will be of any use to you at level 30, though. :smallconfused:

Those aren't the actual orders of progression, just the total levels. I doubt I would get to level 30, I just always use 30 as a reference point for levels.

I was in fact tempted by your Chameleon Base Class, but decided against it as I think that would be too varied, if that makes sense.

Admiral Squish
2010-08-14, 11:14 AM
Cabinet trickster is EASILY refluffed. Just talk to your DM about changing the flavor away from the cabinet and making it more introspective. Perhaps you simply have been born with a greater portion of doppelganger blood. Perhaps by rigorous self-training, you've simply discovered abilities that other changelings have forgotten. Ignoring the fluff, the trickster is a GREAT class for changelings focusing on infiltration and disguise.

I generally go with the Vestament of many styles and a glamered chain shirt. In glamered form, it be simply invisible. If someone bumps into you, you could easily bluff it to be a 'security measure'. The wife insists, you know how nervous those womenfolk can get (laugh and change subject).

Persona immersion is great, but it's not the one you're thinking of. It lets you disguise your thoughts while shifted. Racial emulation is the one that lets you take on the racial traits of whatever you emulate.

Edit; Plus, nothing says 'circumstance bonus one intimidate' Like suddenly growing fangs and stretching your neck in a serpentine fasion.

The rogue/trickster/mindspy/warshaper would be perfect for the first build. Hell, if you're really coercive, you could likely wheedle your DM into letting you impersonate monstrous humanoids, or even giants. Perhaps suggest that it could replace the 5th level ability on warshaper, which is mostly useless to a changeling.