Arena Tournament, Round 93: Bebe vs. De'Athbypro Xie

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 93: Bebe vs. De'Athbypro Xie

Map:http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab330/ArenaManager/Arenas/09-dawn_arena.png
Extra notes: Houses are on average 20 feet high (just use that average figure all over the house), hay piles are up to 10 feet high against the walls. And, I don't care whether you're immune to sanctuary effects, you are not immune to the arena's sanctuary effect. Creatures summoned during the 1st round are also affected by the sanctuary effect.

XP Award: 300 XP
GP Award: 300 GP

Bebe (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=215030) - Candycorn
De'Athbypro Xie (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=8141) - Psionic Dog

All Combatants, please roll initiative and declare final purchases, if any

[candycorn]

Hm. A Minionmaster... And one who beat the last guy I faced.

Init: [roll0]

Debating Purchases.

Already noted: Scroll of Summon Swarm (CL 3) - 150gp.

[Psionic Dog]

Interesting... a 2v2 Masters and Minions duel.

May the best elemental win. :smallwink:

[roll0]

Considering purchases.

[candycorn]

Well, I can only hope that my Minions are up to the challenge.

Let's add Summon Dire Hawk to that scroll. -150 gp.

EDIT: And I'll round things off with a potion of resist energy (Electricity) CL1 (Duskblade) - 50gp.

[Psionic Dog]

Updated character sheet to reflect the last two matches.

Now, what is Dire Hawk?

[candycorn]

Here is a transcript of the spell on the scroll I purchased:

SUMMON DIRE HAWK
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Druid 2, Sky 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned dire hawk
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons a dire hawk (see page 189). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. You may command the dire
hawk telepathically as a free action, allowing you to direct its actions as
you desire.

Here is the relevant text for a Dire Hawk:DIRE HAWK
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (32 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 19 (+6 Dex, +3 natural), touch 16, flatfooted
13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+4
Attack: Talon +9 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: 2 talons +9 melee (1d4+1) and bite +4 melee
(1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +6
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 22, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +10*
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6–8 HD (Medium); 9–12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
This powerful-looking bird of prey bears a bony protrusion on the upper part of its beak. Several long feathers trail gracefully from its lower body and tail.
A dire hawk is capable of taking down pigs, sheep, and even the occasional small horse. This bird of prey prefers high, remote nesting spots.
A typical dire hawk is about 5 feet long and has a wingspan of about 11 feet.
Skills: *A dire hawk receives a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks in daylight.

All text from Races of the Wild.

[Psionic Dog]

Wow, that's quite the 2nd level spell!
That's just... wow.

Ok, purchasing:
-1x Potion of Protection from Evil [50 gp]
-1x Potion of Resist Energy (Acid) CL1 (Duskblade) [50gp]
-1x Powerstone [ML1 Synesthete + ML1 Biofeedback] (Psionic Warrior) [50 gp]
- Crafting an extra 5 acid flasks. [25 gp]

Total spent: 175 gp

Any counters?

[candycorn]

Nope. I'm happy with things as they stand.

EDIT: Hold for a moment. I am selecting my pre-match specifics, since you won initiative.

[candycorn]

Starting Location: X10.
In hand: 1 potion.

Animal Companion: in X11.
Other Particulars (Refs Only):Spells Memorized:

Level 0: Cure Minor Wounds x3
Level 1: Speak With Animals, Entangle

In hand: Potion (Resist Energy - Electricity)

[Psionic Dog]

Xie the elf starts in C-10, the Oxie the Envoy in D-10.
Xie starts holding two potions in one hand and a power stone in the other.
Oxie is holding a loaded crossbow in one hand.

Item distribution:
The 8 acid flasks are split 50/50.

De'Athbypro Xie - Round 1

Xie:
Standard: Manifest a power.
DC 16 Psicraft
Prescience Offensive on Oxie
Move to B-6.

Oxie:
Run(Flying) to U-10/+40

Done

Stats
Xie:
HP: 12/12
AC: 16 (+3 armor +3 dex)
PP: 3/4
Focus: Yes

Oxie:
HP: 13/13
AC: 19 (+2 armor +3 natural +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience Offensive: 10/10


EDIT: Forgot to specify which potions/powerstone are held.
Holding the potions/powerstone just purchased (Protection from Evil, Resist Energy, Synthicate/Biofeedback)

[candycorn]

Bebe, Round 1

Handle Animal (Free) - Move, Auto success
Move: Northwest to R7.
Ready Action:Cast Entangle if any hostile creature completes any standard or full round action. (note: Ready action is worded for the completion of the action. Thus, if he shoots a crossbow at me, I will get hit (or missed) before I take the ready action)

Animal Companion: - Moves northwest, exiting LOS as it exits Q5 northward.
Remainder of turn:AC finishes its double move in Q4

Done.

Stats:Location: R7
HP: 9/9
AC: 15 (Touch 15, FF 13)
In hand: Potion (Resist Electricity)

Spells Memorized:Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds
Entangle, Speak With Animals

AC:
Location: Q4
HP: 11/11
AC: 18 (Touch 16, Flat Foot 13 (Uncanny dodge)
Effect: Share spells (not active)

[Psionic Dog]

Interesting.

Well, time to see how sensitive that ready action trigger is.

De'Athbypro Xie - Round 1

Oxie:
Move: fly to R6/+50
Free: Proper 2-hand handling of crossbow.
Standard: Shoot the druid.
[roll0] [roll1]

Waiting to see if LoS regained to the Animal Companion and if that triggers Bebe's readied action before continuing with Xie.

[candycorn]

Animal Companion is in Q4.

Immediately after the crossbow bolt misses, the ready action triggers.

A spell is cast (spellcraft DC 16)Entangle

If that's not interrupted somehow:Vines shoot out from A8-B9, 40 feet in every direction.

Xie needs to make a Reflex Save, DC 14. Success means 1/2 movement, failure means entangled and immobile.

[Psionic Dog]

Figured that would be coming sooner than later. No readied actions of my own, no threat for an AoO, apparently a standard action casting time... nope. Nothing I can do to interrupt.

[roll0]

Edit: Oh yah, does that cover the walls and rooftops too?

[candycorn]

Burst, Emanation, or Spread

Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
Technically, it's a sphere, that rounds corners. So regardless of LOS/Cover, if you're within 40 feet of the point of origin, you're affected.

[Psionic Dog]

I believe the 40ft includes detour lengths when curving around obstructions, but I'll take that as a "Yes" to my question.

Continued

Xie stays put.

Standard: Manifest a power
DC 16 PsiCraft
Vigor on self

Free: transfer assorted stack of items to one hand.
Move: Draw an alchemic flask.

Done

stats
Xie:
HP: 12+5T/12
AC: 16 (+3 armor +3 dex)
PP: 2/4
Focus: Yes
Vigor: 10/10

Oxie:
HP: 13/13
AC: 19 (+2 armor +3 natural +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience Offensive: 9/10

[hustlertwo]

Actually, I thought we had ruled it did not impact walls or other things not on the ground.

[Psionic Dog]

I couldn't remember a ruling either way but thought it would default to entangling on the roof tops. If the roof tops are entangle free I'd like to revise the elf's movement.

[TheFallenOne]

well, our common rule is that a spell works unless the map explicitedly says otherwise. Though if there indeed is a former High Ref ruling saying that the roofs can't be entangled that takes precedent. We'd have to dig it up though

edit: I think what Hustler's saying is that entangle won't affect vertical surfaces like walls, but rooftops and the top side of walls will be affected just fine

[candycorn]

I can't see why not. Plants can grow on vertical surfaces also. Vines, for example. And the map doesn't say otherwise on walls. If that's the ruling, I can deal with it, but I can't see any reason not to include walls.

[TheFallenOne]

neither can I, but this wouldn't be the first precedent I encounter I don't agree with. Unless someone digs up a previous valid precedent saying that walls are not affected I'll rule that they are entangled too

[candycorn]

Ok, my turn, Round 3, first to act (due to ready action)

Standard: Drink my potion.
Free: Drop my empty potion.
Free: Handle Animal (autosuccess) - Move.
Move: to N1.

AC: Move from Q4 to I1.

Done.


Stats:Location: N1
HP: 9/9
AC: 15 (Touch 15, FF 13)
In hand: Nothing
Effects: Resist Energy (Electricity) 1/100

Spells Memorized:Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds
Entangle, Speak With Animals

AC:
Location: I1
HP: 11/11
AC: 18 (Touch 16, Flat Foot 13 (Uncanny dodge)
Effect: Share spells (not active)

[hustlertwo]

Vines are not mentioned in the description of Entangle. At no point does it say or imply the plants will sprout on vertical surfaces. So it's really a matter of interpretation. Since RAI gives no indication that vertical surfaces sprouting plants is the normal way of things, and RAW doesn't seem to contradict this, as of now I'd rule it only impacts horizontal surfaces. If you can find something to the contrary, go for it.

Edit: Or just skip straight to where most of these ambiguous issues end up, and call for a Kyeudo ruling.

[candycorn]

Vines don't sprout out of the ground either, or out of glass, or out of rooftops. This arena has maps that meet both of those descriptions, and I believe it was ruled (by Kyeudo) that the spell works normally there unless the map explicitly states otherwise.

Why would this be any different?

EDIT: In other words... The spell mentions that the spell may have altered effects based on the nature of entangling plants. Pre-existing plants mentioned in maps was not required by previous arena ruling. In fact, for a map to qualify for altered effects, it must explicitly come out and say so.

Why would walls be an exception to this precedent? What benefit does this provide that justifies the additional complication?

[hustlertwo]

Yeah, I understand the spell works as it would normally. I'm just questioning whether Entangle normally allows for this, since there doesn't seem to be anything at all which indicates it does. Again, if there's some precedent to say it does, then carry on.

[Psionic Dog]

Huh, hadn't thought of it like that.

I guess the question would be is the spell limited to "only" "grass, weeds, bushes, and trees" or if it applies to all non-sentient living plant matter.

While all ground may be assumed to contain grass unless stated otherwise and the buildings/walls assumed to contain moss or vines unless otherwise implied if entangle was restricted to just the grass then the walls could be clear vines or no vines.

I'm going to toss this quick like into the waiting room to see what others think.


EDIT: I think we have an answer. Entangle covers any ambiguous surface in the spread. I'll get a post up tomorrow.

[Psionic Dog]

It occurs to me that somewhere around here my elf needs a new reflex save.

If you had LoS at the time:
[roll0]

Oxie:
5-ft steps to R-5/+50
Move: Reload crossbow
Standard: Fire on Bebe
[roll1]
[roll2]

Xie:
Coming soon once I see the results.
Edit: out of time for now.

[candycorn]

That's a hit. I take 3 damage.

[Psionic Dog]

sorry for the delay.

Xie:

LoS to Xie
Takes total defense

Done

Stats
Xie:
HP: 12+5T/12
AC: 16 (+3 armor +3 dex)
PP: 2/4
Focus: Yes
Vigor: 9/10

Oxie:
HP: 13/13
AC: 19 (+2 armor +3 natural +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience Offensive: 8/10

[candycorn]

LOS to Bebe:Move: Draw a scroll.
Standard: Ready an action:Move if any hostile creature takes a standard or full round action
Free: Handle Animal - Move.

AC: Move to A3. Reflex save required: [roll0] DC 14.
If failed, Entangled in B2.

Done.

Stats:Location: N1
HP: 9/9
AC: 15 (Touch 15, FF 13)
In hand: Nothing
Effects: Resist Energy (Electricity) 2/100

Spells Memorized:Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds
Entangle, Speak With Animals

AC:
Location: B2, Entangled, Immobile
HP: 11/11
AC: 16 (Touch 14, Flat Foot 13 (Uncanny dodge)
Effect: Share spells (not active)

[Psionic Dog]

Thanks to their telepathic link De'Athbypro Xie is aware of everything that Daper Oxie sees.

De'Athbypro Xie - Round 4

Xie
First, check for entanglement.
[roll0]
Nifty. Double move to A-13

Daper Oxie:
Move: Reload crossbow.
5-ft step to Q-4/+50

Standard: Ready Action
Shoot Bebe if the druid moves, starts to cast a spell, readies an action, or ends turn

Done

Stats
Xie:
HP: 12+5T/12
AC: 16 (+3 armor +3 dex)
PP: 2/4
Focus: Yes
Vigor: 8/10

Oxie:
HP: 13/13
AC: 19 (+2 armor +3 natural +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience Offensive: 7/10

[candycorn]

Oxie triggers my ready Action when it readies.

Move: West to F1 (Oxie barely has LOS).

Also: Telepathic bond allows for communication, not sight.

[TheFallenOne]

correct. Oxie can relay information of someones location, but if that creature is hidden to Xie he'd still have to roll miss chance

[Psionic Dog]

No changes.
Turn ends as posted.

Your go.

[candycorn]

My action: Total defense.
Move: west, leaving LOS.

OO:If total defense triggers ready action, my AC is 19 (+4 for cover). If movement does, my AC is 23 (+4 cover, +4 total defense)

Ending in C1, Hiding: [roll0]

Turn not over, need LOS.

[Psionic Dog]

Readied action triggers.

Oxie shoots Bebe when the druid starts to move.
[roll0]
[roll1]

Probably not high enough between cover and total defense.

[candycorn]

Nope. Closer than I'd like, given that substantial attack bonus... But not a hit.

Incidentally, I'm aware of the explanation for the +2 damage (I've read your powers list), but I'd like to verify that the +7 to hit is accurate. Your sheet only shows +6.

[TheFallenOne]

High Ground bonus I guess. I had my doubts, but according to Arena it generally applies if you attack from a higher altitude

[candycorn]

Still need LOS to continue.

[TheFallenOne]

*scratches head* I don't see the LoS between F1 and Q4+50 you talked about now I review your positions :smallconfused:

[candycorn]

Top right corner of Q4 to top right corner of F1. Straight line connects. That's LOS. Other 3 corners don't have it. That's cover.

[Psionic Dog]

Nope. Closer than I'd like, given that substantial attack bonus... But not a hit.

Incidentally, I'm aware of the explanation for the +2 damage (I've read your powers list), but I'd like to verify that the +7 to hit is accurate. Your sheet only shows +6.

Masterwork ammunition.

I'm pretty sure high ground bonuses generally only applies to melee attacks unless a map specifically states otherwise.

[TheFallenOne]

Bebe
Location C1. You see your AC entangled in B2 and Xie in A13

Xie
Her AC is entangled in B2, no other LoS

back to Bebe

[candycorn]

@Rest of turn:Command AC to move.
AC Blinks to E3.
I blink to F2 (hiding).

Done. (LOS Required)

Stats:Location: F2, Hiding
HP: 9/9
AC: 15 (Touch 15, FF 13)
In hand: Nothing
Effects: Resist Energy (Electricity) 2/100

Spells Memorized:Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds
Entangle, Speak With Animals

AC:
Location: E3
HP: 11/11
AC: 18 (Touch 16, Flat Foot 13 (Uncanny dodge)
Effect: Share spells, Share Melds

[TheFallenOne]

Bebe
Using Blink Shirt is a standard action. You already used total defense this turn

[candycorn]

@Refs:Nix the blink then.

[TheFallenOne]

Bebe
ah, the essentia in Blink Shirt is marked on the sheet, didn't find it in stats or actions
Hm, I guess Share Soulmeld does include the invested essentia...

Xie
The AC vanishes. No LoS

Xies turn

[candycorn]

@Fallenone/refs:Yep, the investments and melds on the sheet are valid unless I state otherwise in thread, and I've not made a single change to em. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

EDIT: This doesn't hold the match up.

[Psionic Dog]

De'Athbypro Xie - Round 5

Xie
First things first, another [roll0]

Oxie
Move: Fly to L2.
If no LoS
2nd Move: Fly to G2/+55

Need LoS to continue.

[Sallera]

Xie:From L2, Oxie sees Bebe in C1.

Bebe:Xie is in A13, Oxie is in L2+50.

[TheFallenOne]

Bebe
envoy flies to L2

Xie
You see Bebe in C1 once reaching L2

... I think your ninjas on me approach a two-digit number by now

[Psionic Dog]

@Spectators/Refs
Xie didn't see that?
Odd. There is LoE between A-13 and C-1 and no intervening mist or barier I've been told off. With Xie's +9 Spot mod and only -6 or so distance not even a Natural 20 by a +2 hider would have given a hide auto success... so it's strange that I don't remember rolling a bad spot nor do I see any LoS-Ref spoilers that might have contained a bad spot roll for me.

Since Oxie sees Bebe, Bebe can't be simply invisible or some such. Most unusual.

Well, no matter. Xie will be breaking LoS anyway.

Continued

Xie the elf waves vaguely in the northern direction and then turns to slog south through the touchy-feelie grass out of LoS.
Double move to B-20.
[roll0]

Oxie continues flying forward to H-2/+45

Done

Stats
Xie:
HP: 12+5T/12
AC: 16 (+3 armor +3 dex)
PP: 2/4
Focus: Yes
Vigor: 7/10

Oxie:
HP: 13/13
AC: 19 (+2 armor +3 natural +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience Offensive: 6/10

[TheFallenOne]

Refs
*blinks* +9 spot, huh? Misremembered that
[roll0] DC25(19 hide +6 distance)

nothing to see here, carry on. Bebes turn

edit: Xie
You also see the AC in E3 now

[candycorn]

@Spectators:Well, if he's going to run a commentary, I can too. I'm most distressed that he is still able to move, especially since I wasted a slot on Speak with animals. Well, on the bright side, I can at least cat-and-mouse the tempestan above me. It can't ID my casting, hide from me, or even see worth a damn. The offensive prescience had to be round 1. Tempestan hasn't been in touch range after that. So I've got to either hold out until round 11 without getting attacked successfully, or bluff him and get my aerial combatant in the air. I'll go for option 2.

My Turn:
Free: Handle animal to move.
Animal moves to J1.
Move: Draw Scroll.
Ready an action:Start Full round action: Read scroll (activate Summon Dire Hawk) after the resolution of any standard or full round action taken by the tempestan, or after it leaves LOS or ends turn.

Done.


Stats:Location: C1
HP: 6/9
AC: 15 (Touch 15, FF 13)
In hand: Scroll
Effects: Resist Energy (Electricity) 3/100

Spells Memorized:Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds
Entangle, Speak With Animals

AC:
Location: J1
HP: 11/11
AC: 18 (Touch 16, Flat Foot 13 (Uncanny dodge)
Effect: Share spells, Share Melds

[Psionic Dog]

De'Athbypro Xie - Round 6

Oxie:
Free: Transfers crossbow to one hand.
Move: Drop into a very steep dive to D2/+5 (I think that's 30ft of movement)
Standard: Punch Bebe
[roll0] (includes high ground bonus)
[roll1]

I'd like to see what that did with your readied action before posting stuff for Xie.

[candycorn]

Hit for 5 damage. After the hit, Readied action triggers. I make some gestures and speak some words. It does not provoke.

DM Only:
Cast Defensive:[roll0] Vs DC 17

If Successful, CL Check: [roll1] vs DC 4

As your tempestan doesn't have Spellcraft, I'm not posting any DC's, nor am I posting any spell lists. I did cast on the defensive, but without spellcraft, you have no way of identifying whether or not I succeeded.

[Psionic Dog]

Spell lists are obviously private, and assuming Psicraft/Spellcraft do not over lap then I suppose you might be correct about Xie/Oxie not knowing if a spell succeeded if no obvious effects appear.

However, I do have one question that should be easy for Oxie to visually/audibly determine: Has Bebe concluded with the gestures/funny sounds or are the gestures/funny sounds continuing even after readied action ended?

@refs/spectators
Just a check to see if it was the start of a Full Round casting or if it was a simple standard action casting.

I believe a 1-round Round casting, even one divided between two consecutive standard actions, is obvious in requiring longer-than-average concentration/chanting/gestures

[candycorn]

Transparency Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y).

They actually point out that even with Detect Magic, you need a Psicraft check to identify psionic auras (as opposed to the spellcraft check in the description).

That would seem to point that skills are not included in transparency, even if the fact that skills aren't mentioned anywhere in the transparency rules wouldn't.

As for the rest... Without spellcraft, you wouldn't have any way of knowing if continued speech and gesticulation were an extended casting, or an example of me using speech and gesticulation out of turn.

In other words, without training in Spellcraft, you are very vulnerable to being flat out duped.

[Psionic Dog]

Agreed on the transparency issue only.

As far as the rest you still haven't answered my question. By precedent we are not restricted to rollplaying our characters mental stats, and even if we were Xie has an 18 intelligence and 14 Wisdom. Even if he can't tell the difference between a Summon Monster 1 and a Summon Monster 2 he is capable of some logical deduction.

So, first and independent of the ability of players to recognize spell casting, has or has not Bebe continued to gesture/speak after the readied action ended? I'm not interested in the might-have-beens or alternate tactics. I'm asking about the what-was in regard to Bebe's actions for this past round. If Bebe has just now decided to resume waving and speaking crazy after initially stopping I'd like to know that too.


Second I'm requesting a Ref Opinion on the visibility of spells and spell successes for creatures without Spellcraft. Spell craft is stated as allowing the identification of a spell being cast, but that could be taken to imply that a creature can automatically tell when spellcasting is being preformed and needs the skill only to determine the exact spell being cast. True, Precedent exits that suggest that untrained creatures see only "funny gestures + speech," but there is also precedent of untrained creatures having readied actions triggered not only by spell casting, but also by spell-like abilities which require but a command thought.

So the questions would be:
1) Can an intelligent creature recognize that another creature in LoS is casting something if they are untrained in Spellcraft?
2) May creatures recognize the type of action being taken? (Standard, Move, Full-Round, Swift, Out-of-turn Free) I think this is likely true since precedent has strongly forbidden Out-of-turn free actions from triggering readied actions.
3) What action(s) are required to bluff an opponent into thinking random speech was spell casting?


At the very least I think I'd be entitled an opposed SenseMotive to recognize a bluff. I'll conceded that if it comes to this that a Ref should make the SenseMotive in a hidden spoiler, but having to automatically assume all funny speech is spell casing seems suspicious.

[TheFallenOne]

Can an intelligent creature recognize that another creature in LoS is casting something if they are untrained in Spellcraft?

Somehow contradicting precedent, in the Round 84 Final we declined a rewind based on heard verval components because the character without spellcraft couldn't distinguish if it is spellcasting or just random gibberish(the caster was invisible). On the other hand, "casts a spell" is indeed often used as trigger... I personally by now avoid this problem by using the trigger "uses speech and/or hand motions that may or may not be spellcasting".


May creatures recognize the type of action being taken? (Standard, Move, Full-Round, Swift, Out-of-turn Free) I think this is likely true since precedent has strongly forbidden Out-of-turn free actions from triggering readied actions.

Yes. The type of action should be announced when performing it, though Sallera suggested you could use a Bluff check to make a standard casting appear as a 1 round casting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8393131&postcount=80), but we never worked out how we'd handle something like that


What action(s) are required to bluff an opponent into thinking random speech was spell casting?

Depends on whether the opponent has spellcraft. If he doesn't and our ruling for 1) is that you can't identify spellcasting without it, you as a player would have to deduce that a spell is cast from the components described(handmotions, gibberish speech etc). If you try a bluff the problem you run into is that speech and gesticulation are free actions, but you want both of them combined to appear as a standard action(or 1 turn).

One more thing, we do have precedent that the use of power stones and scrolls is apparant even without spell/psicraft, so you'd notice that in her readied action the scroll was used, be the whole thing a bluff or not

There are some other questions here I can't answer without some further digging, that's all for now

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo



So the questions would be:
1) Can an intelligent creature recognize that another creature in LoS is casting something if they are untrained in Spellcraft?
2) May creatures recognize the type of action being taken? (Standard, Move, Full-Round, Swift, Out-of-turn Free) I think this is likely true since precedent has strongly forbidden Out-of-turn free actions from triggering readied actions.
3) What action(s) are required to bluff an opponent into thinking random speech was spell casting?


1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. A Bluff check opposed by a GM-made Sense Motive roll, definately. You'll want to take an action to do so if you want to fake casting inside of LoS. Otherwise, the verbal component would just be talking, so a free action. Opponent would have to hear it as normal, of course. Spellcraft would be used to identify the spell they are trying to fake.

[candycorn]

So the questions would be:
1) Can an intelligent creature recognize that another creature in LoS is casting something if they are untrained in Spellcraft?

Clarification request, as I feel this question is... imprecise.

We know that I need to announce what action I am taking (standard), and that it is spellcasting (I did). The difference of opinion lies in act versus action.

Is the action of spellcasting visible? Absolutely, though I have an addendum question to that.

Addendum:Say I use a standard action to cast a spell. My opponent knows (1) that I've used a standard action, and (2) that I've cast a spell.

What if that spell were modified by still spell and silent spell, and cast defensively (sudden still, sudden silent, for example)? Is the casting still visible? Is the standard action?

Next: Is spellcasting automatically known when no action is being taken?

Explanation:Say we have someone in a match who casts a full round spell. Anyone within LOS will know he used a full round action, and cast a spell.

However, the spell doesn't take effect until the next round, and until then, the caster is casting, even though he is not using any actions.

Let's say 2 players do not have LOS. One takes a full round action to cast a spell. On the other player's next action, he enters LOS. The spell has not taken effect yet, so the first player is still casting. However, the second player has not seen the player take any action to cast.

Which is the correct LOS?

1) You see the First player in XX.
2) You see the First player in XX, and he's casting a spell.

In other words, yes, the actions we take in LOS must be announced. When someone takes an action to cast, it is noticeable. But is spellcasting noticeable when no actions are being taken?

Edit: Psionic, the spoilers are to keep it mostly clean. You can look in them.

[candycorn]

Meh, w/e.

Yes, I'm still casting after Xie's attack.

[Psionic Dog]

I think Kyeudo ruled that spellcasting is always visible if you have LoS to the caster. If TheFallenOne's answer also stands Id guess that hearing a vocal component only is insufficient to recognize spellcasting for those untrained in spellcraft.

This would imply that a sudden stilled silenced spell would be a visible swift action spell casting, but since there are no verbal or somatic components it can't be identified even by someone trained in spellcraft.

Anway,

Xie - Continued
Move to E-20 and upthewalls to E-19.
Standard: Ready Action
Move if attacked, if a non-allied creature approaches within 15 ft, or if Bebe ends turn

Done

Stats
Xie:
HP: 12+5T/12
AC: 16 (+3 armor +3 dex)
PP: 2/4
Focus: Yes
Vigor: 6/10

Oxie:
HP: 13/13
AC: 19 (+2 armor +3 natural +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience Offensive: 5/10

[candycorn]

My turn.

Standard: Complete a full round action. A Dire Hawk appears in D1.
Free: Handle Animal (Attack).
Free Telepathically Direct Dire Hawk, per spell description.

AC: Charge from J1 to E1.

Attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3] additional

Dire Hawk: Full Attack Oxie.

Talon: [roll4]
Damage: [roll5]
If threat: [roll6]
If Crit: [roll7]

Talon 2: [roll8]
Damage: [roll9]
If threat: [roll10]
If Crit: [roll11]

Bite: [roll12]
Damage: [roll13]
If threat: [roll14]
If Crit: [roll15]

Waiting on results before taking remainder of turn.

[candycorn]

End Turn.



Stats:Location: C1
HP: 1/9
AC: 15 (Touch 15, FF 13)
In hand: Scroll
Effects: Resist Energy (Electricity) 4/100

Spells Memorized:Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds, Cure Minor Wounds
Entangle, Speak With Animals

AC:
Location: E1
HP: 11/11
AC: 18 (Touch 16, Flat Foot 13 (Uncanny dodge)
Effect: Share spells, Share Melds (Not Active)

Dire Hawk
Location: D1
HP: 32/32
AC: 19 (Touch 16, FF 13)
Effects: Summoned 1/30

[Psionic Dog]

De'Athbypro Xie - Round 7

Oxie: 5-ft steps vertically to D-2/+10 after taking 2 damage.

Move: Draw Acid flask
Standard: toss flask at Bebe
[roll0] (includes -2 range)
[roll1]

If flask misses [roll2]

Edit: That looks like a hit, and I think the hawk takes 1 point of acid splash damage as well... is Bebe still standing?

[candycorn]

No, that puts me at -2. Shame the hawk rolled so poorly on the attack.

[Sallera]

High Ref Sallera

De'Athbypro Xie's minions prove superior, and he claims victory.

[Psionic Dog]

Good game, mostly I think I just got lucky on the rolls. Frankly, I was expecting my elf to move to B6 and then never move again.

[candycorn]

You were never entangled? And my AC with a +8 reflex was entangled right off, haha.

Also, I ended up wasting a spell choice.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

I realize the match is over, but since I just got back from camping and clarification was requested:


Clarification request, as I feel this question is... imprecise.

We know that I need to announce what action I am taking (standard), and that it is spellcasting (I did). The difference of opinion lies in act versus action.

Is the action of spellcasting visible? Absolutely, though I have an addendum question to that.

Addendum:Say I use a standard action to cast a spell. My opponent knows (1) that I've used a standard action, and (2) that I've cast a spell.

What if that spell were modified by still spell and silent spell, and cast defensively (sudden still, sudden silent, for example)? Is the casting still visible? Is the standard action?


Somehow, your opponent would realize you were casting a spell. You have removed the somatic and verbal components, yes, but niether of those (either seperately or in combination) specify that they make the act of spellcasting invisible. This is probably much like the way that using a spell-like ability is visible despite lacking verbal and somatic components.



Next: Is spellcasting automatically known when no action is being taken?

Explanation:Say we have someone in a match who casts a full round spell. Anyone within LOS will know he used a full round action, and cast a spell.

However, the spell doesn't take effect until the next round, and until then, the caster is casting, even though he is not using any actions.

Let's say 2 players do not have LOS. One takes a full round action to cast a spell. On the other player's next action, he enters LOS. The spell has not taken effect yet, so the first player is still casting. However, the second player has not seen the player take any action to cast.

Which is the correct LOS?

1) You see the First player in XX.
2) You see the First player in XX, and he's casting a spell.

In other words, yes, the actions we take in LOS must be announced. When someone takes an action to cast, it is noticeable. But is spellcasting noticeable when no actions are being taken?

Edit: Psionic, the spoilers are to keep it mostly clean. You can look in them.

The second is correct. The act of casting extends from the start of casting to the end of casting, in this case from the start of your turn until just before your next turn.