[3.5] Favourite obscure rule

[Snake-Aes]

Randomized punctuation makes your post. Harder to read.

Anyway, "opening" the illusory window in the illusory wall, if it even is possible, doesn't make the real wall seem any different. (Though having the illusory wall there in the first place makes the hallway seem different, so it's not possible to create with a figment.)


A better approach might be to use objects in the actual sense of the physical matter that constitutes the object. You can put the window in the hole, or "close" holes, but not open other holes, or change the wall's color.

[Drolyt]

I think the fact that subschools have rules is pretty obscure.

[Greenish]

A better approach might be to use objects in the actual sense of the physical matter that constitutes the object.Obviously, but RAW doesn't define that they only apply to physical objects. A hallway or an alley is a "thing".

[Snake-Aes]

Obviously, but RAW doesn't define that they only apply to physical objects. A hallway or an alley is a "thing".
When that happens, I point out that Immovable rods and the Immovability power actually cause the immovable item to move at the speed the space itself expands, which is absolutely dissonant from the position of objects in it, generally leading to the immovable object tearing through planets and losing temperature to 0k, plus completely freezing the object's "age".

[SwordChucks]

Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown)


Is anyone else creeped out by this line (4th line down)?

unconscious creatures are considered willing

[Tetrasodium]

I'm confused about the door argument. Sure you can put just a little from the wall so it isn't technically changing the wall, but to what end? As soon as somebody inspects it they will realize the door isn't attached to the wall. Even if they somehow fail their save to disbelieve that just means they still see the door, but they know it is fake regardless.

"I have 5 more heavily armed guards on the other side of that door ready to stop anything amiss should I call for them."

"It's a big operation here, that leads to the xyz wing/storage/whatever area"

"While we are waiting for our trap to spring, I'm going to make what looks like a door on these two walls in hopes that they might split up their forces for a moment wasting time to check the other pair of doors."

"You have to be careful in there... the doors actually move... but I can sell you a map of the real layout if your interested... Some of the (fake) doors are trapped and sound an alarm if you touch them"

etc.

[Greenish]

When that happens, I point out that Immovable rods and the Immovability power actually cause the immovable item to move at the speed the space itself expands, which is absolutely dissonant from the position of objects in it, generally leading to the immovable object tearing through planets and losing temperature to 0k, plus completely freezing the object's "age".…And you can heal by drowning and all the other wacky things RAW brings it.

I'm not suggesting you play by RAW, for the record.

[Amphetryon]

Such inspection is what allows the disbelief save. Figments just happen to fail to alter an object's sensory output.

one can't just say "casting the figment to alter an object's image will fizzle", nor say WHY they fail automatically to disguise the object, because it is never explained how it happens. Fluff at your desire.

You said nothing, originally, about 'allowing a save.' Your statement was they could be seen through. Clearly, any illusion which is saved against can be seen through, so there logically must have been more to your statement than 'allowing a save.' The clearest reading of your statement was it allowed an auto-success on that save. I see nothing that supports that.

[Snake-Aes]

You said nothing, originally, about 'allowing a save.' Your statement was they could be seen through. Clearly, any illusion which is saved against can be seen through, so there logically must have been more to your statement than 'allowing a save.' The clearest reading of your statement was it allowed an auto-success on that save. I see nothing that supports that.

i suggested a possible interpretation being an auto-save. The figments are explicitly stated as not being able to disguise anything, but it doesn't say how that happens.

[okpokalypse]

You're not supposed to be able to sell mundane equipment.
Everyone seems to forget that, and the DM's end up tolling up 50% of the cost of moldy leather armor worn by the goblin warriors. xD

I had a PC with an Ancestral Relic in the Forgotten Realms. I offered to buy everyone's (and I mean everyone's) mundane items at 10% cost (since they can't be sold normally) - and powered my relic for 1/10th the cost it normally would have taken. He basically just had a warehouse full of old crap that he'd clear a chunk out of every level or two.

[Whyareall]

So what you're saying, Snake-Aes, is if I cast an illusion of a torch with a holding in mid-air, attached to nothing in particular, and some jerk comes along and builds a wall there (so that the holder is say a millimetre away from the wall, and appears to be attached unless closely inspected), my illusion automatically disappears? Even if the wall-builder was blind and so had no idea the illusion was actually there?

[Greenish]

my illusion automatically disappears?It might not disappear totally, but it would mystical-magically stop fooling anybody. By RAW, that is.

[Wonton]

Holy frack guys, I feel like asking my DM to ban all figments now. Too much rules lawyering. :smallwink:



Is anyone else creeped out by this line (4th line down)?
unconscious creatures are considered willing

To reuse an old joke, "That's not what I was told during my rehabilitation..."

Seriously though, that's how D&D works. Meaning - you need to kidnap someone? Beat them unconscious and Teleport away with them. At lower levels, if you need to smuggle the same unconscious character in/out of a city, cast Invisibility on them. Also good for use with Benign Transposition.

[Tinydwarfman]

Holy frack guys, I feel like asking my DM to ban all figments now. Too much rules lawyering. :smallwink:




To reuse an old joke, "That's not what I was told during my rehabilitation..."

Seriously though, that's how D&D works. Meaning - you need to kidnap someone? Beat them unconscious and Teleport away with them. At lower levels, if you need to smuggle the same unconscious character in/out of a city, cast Invisibility on them. Also good for use with Benign Transposition.

Heh, I like that.
Paladin: Ha! I have grappled you wizard!
Wiz: Why don't you share a nice hug with your dead friend over there?

[Wonton]

Heh, I like that.
Paladin: Ha! I have grappled you wizard!
Wiz: Why don't you share a nice hug with your dead friend over there?

Unfortunately, if they're dead, they're no longer counted as "creatures" and can't be a target for Benign Transposition. They just have to be in that awesome -1 to -9 hit point range (or unconscious from non-lethal damage, I suppose).

[Halae]

since you are all masters of obscure rules here, I was wondering, are we able to make a jump while flying? even one using something like the swift leap maneuver?

[SwordChucks]

I don't see any rule in the SRD under the Jump skill or the Fly movement mode that specifically says you can't.

If you want to convince your DM to ignore common sense try using this:


Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground.

Also:

A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

The Fly spell doesn't allow you to run, but a natural flying speed seems ok. This is nice because it keeps the Jump DC's low.

I know basically nothing about manuvers so I'll let someone else answer that.

[Curmudgeon]

since you are all masters of obscure rules here, I was wondering, are we able to make a jump while flying?

I don't see any rule in the SRD under the Jump skill or the Fly movement mode that specifically says you can't.
Well, there is this:
If your check succeeds, you land on your feet at the far end. But mostly it's inherent in the definition of the term:
jump
 –verb (used without object)

1. to spring clear of the ground or other support by a sudden muscular effort If you don't have a surface to push against, you can't Jump.

[hamishspence]

I think water sort of counts as a surface though- Stormwrack has rules for aquatic creatures jumping out of water, and a feat to boost it.

[lord_khaine]

Interestingly, it's very fun to punch an iron golem to death if you have the admantine body feat


Unfortunately that feat dont make your attacks count as adamantine, so you better PA for a lot if you wish to hurt the golem.

[Halae]

Unfortunately that feat dont make your attacks count as adamantine, so you better PA for a lot if you wish to hurt the golem.

It gives you damage reduction adamantine. Like affects like, remember? You can't punch through walls, but you can kick a golem in the teeth

[dsmiles]

The rule that says all the other rules are just guidelines. That's my favorite rule.

[hamishspence]

It gives you damage reduction adamantine. Like affects like, remember? You can't punch through walls, but you can kick a golem in the teeth

By this rule, werewolves, with DR/Silver, would be assumed to have silver talons and teeth. (for attacking anything else with DR/Silver)

Or demons, with DR/Cold Iron, would be assumed to have natural weapons that count as Cold Iron.

I don't think that RAW, it works this way.

[Halae]

By this rule, werewolves, with DR/Silver, would be assumed to have silver talons and teeth. (for attacking anything else with DR/Silver)

Or demons, with DR/Cold Iron, would be assumed to have natural weapons that count as Cold Iron.

I don't think that RAW, it works this way.

Believe it or not, it does. The only damage reduction that isn't affected by this is DR/-. It says it in the monster maual somewhere - not sure where, but it's there. or maybe in the damage reduction entry in the DMG? either way, it says it in one of those two books. look it up

[hamishspence]

Believe it or not, it does. The only damage reduction that isn't affected by this is DR/-. It says it in the monster maual somewhere - not sure where, but it's there. or maybe in the damage reduction entry in the DMG? either way, it says it in one of those two books. look it up

As far as I recall, the MM, and the DMG, say the same as the SRD:

Damage Reduction
A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.

Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage.

Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus.

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

When a damage reduction entry has a dash (-) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.

A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction.

A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.


which only calls out DR/epic, DR/magic, and DR/aligned, not DR/material.

[KillianHawkeye]

Believe it or not, it does. The only damage reduction that isn't affected by this is DR/-. It says it in the monster maual somewhere - not sure where, but it's there. or maybe in the damage reduction entry in the DMG? either way, it says it in one of those two books. look it up

Sorry, but DR of different types works in different ways. Maybe YOU should "look it up"?

[Lysander]

Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets a monk speak "with any living creature." Not just speak all languages, or speak to animals. They can with swarms, oozes, bacteria, mindless skeletons, animated objects, anything. The ramifications of that power could be great enough if fully exploited to actually make the monk class worthwhile.

[Jallorn]

Some creatures have damage reduction that is overcome by magic weapons. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Seems to me like this rule got us all killed once, but I dont remember the details...

-snip-

This reminds me of Hercules using the Nemean Lion's own claws to shave the pelt so he could make it into armor.

[Greenish]

Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets a monk speak "with any living creature." Not just speak all languages, or speak to animals. They can with swarms, oozes, bacteria, mindless skeletons, animated objects, anything.:smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Animated objects aren't living either, they're constructs.

Besides, anyone can talk to trees. The trees just can't answer, whether you have the ability or not.

[hamishspence]

Animated objects aren't living either, they're constructs.

Besides, anyone can talk to trees. The trees just can't answer, whether you have the ability or not.

Rocks can answer your questions- if you have the right spell:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneTell.htm

[Darkxarth]

Animated objects aren't living either, they're constructs.

Besides, anyone can talk to trees. The trees just can't answer, whether you have the ability or not.

Notice that it is not "talk to any living creature" but "talk with any living creature." Emphasis mine.

[Sliver]

Notice that it is not "talk to any living creature" but "talk with any living creature." Emphasis mine.

Doesn't make animated objects, rocks or mindless skeletons, animated or not, living.

[crazedloon]

I believe the point was that you talk with something which means there is a back and forth. Thus trees can talk back. This makes little sense but so does taking a monk that far :smalltongue:

[Vantharion]

By this rule, werewolves, with DR/Silver, would be assumed to have silver talons and teeth. (for attacking anything else with DR/Silver)

Or demons, with DR/Cold Iron, would be assumed to have natural weapons that count as Cold Iron.

I don't think that RAW, it works this way.

It states that natural weapons are considered magical for overcoming damage reduction. Damage reduction rules don't state that it makes the teeth silver, it just acts as if they had the magical accuracy enhancement.
One of my favorite obscure rules is that Damage Reduction is trumped by powerful magical enhancements. You can beat DR/silver with a +2 enhancement even if it ISNT silver. Source: Montecook.com found through google. (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_damage_reduction)

For a weapon to be magical it has to be masterwork (According to Core) is my favorite [And by that, I mean its my favorite to put aside and give someone Pebbles of Magical Stuff]

[hamishspence]

It worked that way in 3.0. It explicitly doesn't work that way in 3.5 core.

And a creature with just DR/silver won't overcome DR/magic with its bite either.

Only a creature with DR/magic counts as having magical natural weapons.

And a creature with DR/epic counts as having epic natural weapons.

[Tar Palantir]

It worked that way in 3.0. It explicitly doesn't work that way in 3.5 core.

And a creature with just DR/silver won't overcome DR/magic with its bite either.

Only a creature with DR/magic counts as having magical natural weapons.

And a creature with DR/epic counts as having epic natural weapons.

And DR/alignment works the same way too, but you're right on the material-based DR.

[hamishspence]

Hmm- if a creature has alignment-based DR, but not an alignment subtype, what happens?

My guess is (if such a creature ever existed) that it would not- it's only alignment subtypes that grant special DR-overcoming ability.

Alignment subtypes grant the ability to overcome DR/alignment, with melee weapons as well as natural weapons- which makes it a bit different.

[Sliver]

Hmm- if a creature has alignment-based DR, but not an alignment subtype, what happens?

Huh, why would you need to ask or guess? :smallconfused:


A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

[hamishspence]

It's just that somebody was insisting that anything with DR/X automatically overcomes the DR of another creature with DR/X.

and I can't find that rule anywhere, for cases where X is silver, adamantine, cold iron- and alignment.

[senrath]

That's because it's not a rule. Only DR/magic and DR/epic work that way.

[hamishspence]

That's pretty much what I thought.

Some monsters do get special material-based natural weapons (the adamantine dragon in Dragon Magazine 321) but this is very atypical.

[RandomNPC]

this is 3.0, and an obvious typo, but according to the first print PHB a halfling in medium armor has a 30 foot speed.

[Lysander]

Yeah, my mistake. I guess Tongue Of The Sun and Moon only works for actually living creatures, so no constructs, undead, etc. However that still leaves a wide variety of ways to exploit it.

[Terazul]

Yeah, my mistake. I guess Tongue Of The Sun and Moon only works for actually living creatures, so no constructs, undead, etc. However that still leaves a wide variety of ways to exploit it.

Or you could... y'know. Just get a psicrystal.

[Wonton]

"Oh no, this monk can speak to any living creature! That's so broken... let's nerf him... how does low Fort, wizard BAB, and d6 HD sound?" :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

On the topic, the rule for splitting a full round action for two standard actions might be somewhat obscure. Amusingly, coup de grâce can be split. :smallcool:

[okpokalypse]

On the topic, the rule for splitting a full round action for two standard actions might be somewhat obscure. Amusingly, coup de grâce can be split. :smallcool:

You don't split a Full-Round for 2 Standards. You can start a Full Round action only if you have a single standard action to take, and you complete it with your standard action the next round.


Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions, below, detail which actions allow this option.

The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

[Greenish]

You don't split a Full-Round for 2 Standards. You can start a Full Round action only if you have a single standard action to take, and you complete it with your standard action the next round.Ha, I thought it'd be obscure!
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
[Edit]: The "only when you have a single standard action to take" is for charge.

[Tharck]

Ha, I thought it'd be obscure! [Edit]: The "only when you have a single standard action to take" is for charge.

But you dont get a double move from the charge, only a single move, if you only have a standard action and want to charge.

If that's what you were talking about.

[Greenish]

But you dont get a double move from the charge, only a single move, if you only have a standard action and want to charge.

If that's what you were talking about.You're correct on charge, but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about splitting other full round actions.

You could, say, move to a disabled enemy (move action) and start coup de grace (standard action), then on your next turn you could finish the coup de grace (standard action) and move away (move action).

[Tharck]

You're correct on charge, but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about splitting other full round actions.

You could, say, move to a disabled enemy (move action) and start coup de grace (standard action), then on your next turn you could finish the coup de grace (standard action) and move away (move action).

Gotcha. I misunderstood since to me it's not a obscure rule. To me anyone who has dealt with playing zombies or being slowed has to know it.

[Wonton]

You're correct on charge, but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about splitting other full round actions.

You could, say, move to a disabled enemy (move action) and start coup de grace (standard action), then on your next turn you could finish the coup de grace (standard action) and move away (move action).

This actually makes perfect sense if you imagine, say, a Slowed Ogre rearing back its massive club, to SLAM it into the fallen enemy several seconds later.

[Peregrine]

You don't split a Full-Round for 2 Standards. You can start a Full Round action only if you have a single standard action to take, and you complete it with your standard action the next round.

It's kind of implied from some of the other posts, but I don't think anyone's said outright, "no, okpokalypse is wrong".

You can split a full-round action into two standard actions -- any full-round action, except "a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw". The two paragraphs of your SRD quote are quite separate. The "Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions" section is talking about charge and withdraw (any others?), which can be taken as a single standard action -- moving half the distance you normally get -- if you only have one action a round, say because you're staggered, slowed, or in the surprise round.

[Snake-Aes]

Attacks of opportunity deserve another mention

A single movement can only trigger one attack of opportunity, regardless of how many threatened squares you left in your wake.

[omglolnub]

Another interesting one, if two people without IUS are brawling, they're considered unarmed, and thus not engaged in melee with one another. Because of that, you can shoot at either one without the -4 penalty for shooting into melee.

[Lhurgyof]

Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets a monk speak "with any living creature." Not just speak all languages, or speak to animals. They can with swarms, oozes, bacteria, mindless skeletons, animated objects, anything. The ramifications of that power could be great enough if fully exploited to actually make the monk class worthwhile.

I remember I used it to talk to trees and a maggot once. :smallsmile: