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Rannil
2010-08-15, 12:59 AM
Alternative title: How to confuse the hell out of people

Because it is really getting into a discussion in the Simple Q&A D&D I decided to place to it's own topic, I think more words are going to be spend on said subject.

For reference here are all involved post, sorry I am to lazy to fix the quoting within quotes.:

Followup: So if I started casting the spell on round 1, the effects of the spell would come into play at the beginning of round 3?


No, full round casting means that you begin casting at round 1, cast through the round (so you may be interrupted on others' turns) and finish slightly before turn 2, so as your second round begins, the spell is cast and the effect is in play.


Talking about the metamagic version here...the spell takes effect on round 3 on my initiative count right before I act, correct?


That is correct.


No, it is not. The rules state that a spell with 1-round casting time takes an extra full-round action.

1 round and full round are different casting times. The former finishes on the beginning of next turn, while the latter finishes on the end of the current turn.

As such, the spell would take effect at the end of round 2 on your initiative count.


A 176 (177) supplemental, more



I believe you are mistaken.


Source: SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm), under the header "Casting a spell"

Metamagics adds another full-round action. So yes it would finish in round three, just before the caster's initiative.


Hmmm... in that case, where's the distinction between the full-round casting time and the 1-round casting time? It seems ambiguous.

Basically here's my problem: 1-round casting time does this, full-round casting time does that. They each take one "full round action" in terms of action (even though the 1-round takes longer, it still takes a "full-round action" by technical standards).

Then this metamagic thing tells us that it adds a "full round action". Yet we do not know which type of full-round action. The 1-round casting time type of full round action, or the full-round casting time of full round action.

God, "full round" no longer makes any sense to me as words after writing it so much lol


A176 (177)



There is your distinction between full-round casting and 1-round casting. Metamagic spells with a 1-round casting time require 2 full-round actions to cast, and take effect at the beginning of the character's turn in the third round.


You didn't get my issue.

Spell takes 1-round to cast.
Metamagicked spell takes 1-round + an additional "full round action" to cast.

"Full-round action" includes casting spells with 1-round casting times and casting spells with full-round action casting times.

This additional "full round action" isn't distinguished between being a full-round action full-round casting time, casting the spell at the end of second turn; or full-round action 1-round casting time, casting the spell at the beginning of third turn.


Or diagrammatically:

Start of End of Start of
your turn your turn … your turn
| | … |
|◀ Full-round ▶| … |
| action | … |
| … |
|◀ One round ▶|

As far as I know, there are no "full-round action" spells, only "1 round" spells. That doesn't by itself solve the spontaneous metamagic problem, as you still have these possibilities: 1 round (normal casting) + 1 round (metamagic) 1 round (normal casting) + full-round action (metamagic) But, the second of these could be reordered as "full-round action + 1 round", which is effectively identical to the first.

So I would interpret RAW to mean that a 1-round spell, with spontaneously applied metamagic, comes into effect at the start of your turn, two rounds hence.

EDIT: If I'm wrong and there are "full-round action" spells, then I'd suppose that applying metamagic means they still come into effect at the end of your turn, as normal, just one round later.

My current main issue is the conflicting nature of the following two statements:


Originally Posted by Rules Compenidium p. 125
If a spell’s normal casting
time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the
spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This
isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect
during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it.
Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an
extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.


A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

Why is there is weird exception to the 1 round = full round for meta magics and where is mentioned more?

Also consider the following statement

If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

According the Rules Compendium the following will happen with a one round casting spell that spontaneous get's metamagic:
Round 1, Initiative 15, Initial cast
Round 2, Initiative 14.9, end of initial cast
Round 2, Initiative 15, start of the metamagic cast.
Round 2, Initiative 15.9, end of the metamagic cast, spell is being launched.

But with only SRD one would do this:
Round 1, Initiative 15, Initial cast
Round 2, Initiative 14.9, end of initial cast
Round 2, Initiative 15, start of the metamagic cast.
Round 3, Initiative 14.9, end of the metamagic cast, spell is being launched.

There is a huge difference and the rules compendium seems to be the better option. But it doesn't seem to be named in the SRD.
Can anyone else shine light of this?

tyckspoon
2010-08-15, 01:08 AM
You're forcing a..umm..similarity? Confluence? that doesn't exist, IMO. 1 round actions only happen when they say so; they're the specific exception. At any other time, a reference to a full-round action means the kind that completes in the same round but prevents you from also taking a Move action. If it doesn't say something takes a 1-round action, it doesn't. The SRD and the Rules Compendium state the same rule; the Compendium is just performing its proper role in formatting it in a more clearly worded way.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 01:16 AM
You're forcing a..umm..similarity? Confluence? that doesn't exist, IMO. 1 round actions only happen when they say so; they're the specific exception. At any other time, a reference to a full-round action means the kind that completes in the same round but prevents you from also taking a Move action. If it doesn't say something takes a 1-round action, it doesn't. The SRD and the Rules Compendium state the same rule; the Compendium is just performing its proper role in formatting it in a more clearly worded way.

I am not clear about what you are saying. So I maybe replying to the wrong aspect.


A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. Is from the SRD.

That isn't the same as a 1 round action that takes a both a standard action and a move action to complete. Which is described in the rule companion, is the normal way of handling a 1 round action/full round action but not for spells it seems. Yet it is for meta magics.

The issue is when the spell launches. When the spell launches is really important for casters because along as they are casting they can be interrupted.

W3bDragon
2010-08-15, 01:17 AM
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action.

I'm guessing that this is the problematic sentence. Although confusing, it could actually be accurate if approached from the angle of: "Can I take a move action then start casting a 1 round casting time spell?"

The answer is "No. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action."

That doesn't conflict with you continuing to concentrate on the spell until the beginning of your next turn.

Edit: Thus, we can conclude that you take a full-round action on round 1 to start casting a 1-round metamagicked spell. Although it should be complete at the beginning of your next turn on round 2, instead you have to pay 1 more full-round action for the metamagic, causing the spell instead to take effect at the end of your turn on round 2.

tyckspoon
2010-08-15, 01:23 AM
I am not clear about what you are saying. So I maybe replying to the wrong aspect.

Is from the SRD.

That isn't the same as a 1 round action that takes a both a standard action and a move action to complete. Which is described in the rule companion, is the normal way of handling a 1 round action/full round action but not for spells it seems. Yet it is for meta magics.

The issue is when the spell launches. When the spell launches is really important for casters because along as they are casting they can be interrupted.

The timing you ascribe to the Rules Compendium is correct. The thing I'm not seeing is how you interpret the SRD text as being any different. It says you take an extra full-round action to metamagic a 1 Round spell. Does it say it takes an extra 1 Round action? No, it doesn't, so it doesn't take an extra 1 Round. The only time that particular variety of action is ever used is when they specifically tell you to use it; otherwise, a rules reference to a full-round action means the kind that completes in the same turn.

T.G. Oskar
2010-08-15, 01:23 AM
Semantic problem.

"Full round" actions imply consuming your move and standard action, and activate at the end of your turn. However, instead of saying "Full turn" actions, they went with "full round" (since, in theory, that's all you do in the 6 seconds of action that takes one turn).

"1-round" actions imply that you consume your move and your standard action, but the effect activates at the beginning of your next turn. It implies the concept of a round as a mechanical definition (1 round = the entire set of actions of all people).

So, casting a spell with metamagic would take 6 seconds, but mechanically, it only takes your turn; it activates at the end of your turn (which is a purely mechanical concept). A 1-round action takes slightly longer than 6 seconds, which is basically giving the enemy time to react. In fact, it would be easier to determine "full round" as "more than 4 seconds but less than 6", where no one has time to react, while 1-round means 6 seconds or longer, but no more than 6 and a half seconds.

Still kinda confusing, but then again, D&D has trouble with defining a "level" and a "round", so...

Rannil
2010-08-15, 01:24 AM
I'm guessing that this is the problematic sentence. Although confusing, it could actually be accurate if approached from the angle of: "Can I take a move action then start casting a 1 round casting time spell?"

The answer is "No. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action."

That doesn't conflict with you continuing to concentrate on the spell until the beginning of your next turn.

I think due to what tyckspoon just said the real prolem is this sentence:

It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell.
And then title is already invalid at point. (But yes it was my initial confusion)

The difference between the described spell casting here and a "normal full round action" is large.

In case of a normal full round action the spell would start and finish in the same round, on the same turn.

In case of that quoted line earlier, the spell would start and finish in two different rounds.

So meta magics follow the normal full round action rule, but normal spells don't. :smallconfused: This makes two exceptions. Spellcasting is a exception to the normal full round rules, but meta magics is a exception to the normal casting rules.

Peregrine
2010-08-15, 01:29 AM
If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.

*grumbles* Yeah, I totally overlooked that. I was about to complain about Rules Compendium and its stealth errata, but that's in the PHB and SRD too, worded thus:
If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.


My current main issue is the conflicting nature of the following two statements:

As tyckspoon says, those aren't in contradiction. A full-round action goes from the start until the end of your turn. A "1 round" action uses a full-round action this turn, but it's not the same as "only" a full round -- you continue doing that action during everyone else's turn, finishing right before your next turn. (See my diagram in the posts quoted from the Simple Q&A thread.)

But having the "metamagic = full-round, not 1-round" rule pointed out to me casts doubt on my conclusion in that post.

*ponder*

Okay, I guess a spontaneous-metamagic "1 round" spell is completed on round 3 before your turn. I could defend my earlier conclusion by treating it like "full-round + 1 round" rather than "1 round + full-round", but that just doesn't seem to be the spirit of the rules ("an [b]extra[/i] full-round action", emphasis added).

The only reason to do it my way would be to preserve the "finish before your next turn" mechanic of 1-round spells, which (for instance) makes it easier to adjudicate when summoned creatures act.

And if "full-round action" spells are found to exist, then it's fairly plain that they would finish as normal -- at the end of your second turn, not the start of the third.


So meta magics follow the normal full round action rule, but normal spells don't. :smallconfused: This makes two exceptions. Spellcasting is a exception to the normal full round rules, but meta magics is a exception to the normal casting rules.

Spellcasting isn't an exception to the full-round rules. Casting a 1-round spell means you take a full-round action that is in every way like any other full-round action -- and then you also spend the time after your turn to continue the casting.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 01:29 AM
A full-round casting makes the spell take effect at the end of the spellcaster's action.

A 1-round casting makes the spell take effect at the beginning of the spellcaster's next turn, after everything else has acted in the initiative order.

So, if a druid cast summon nature's ally (1-round casting time), then that druid wouldn't get that ally until their next turn after they started casting.

On the other hand, if a spellcaster cast a spell with a full-round action casting time, they'd get the effects at the end of their round, right then and there. No other creatures act before that happens unless attacks of opportunity are provoked.

At least, that's how I think it works.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 01:35 AM
I think we have the answer, but meta magics are a exception.

Full Round Action -> An action that takes both your standard and your movement actions.
One Round Casting-> A spell that takes a full round action and finishes casting the next turn, just before your initiative.

Metamagic exception, metamagics are always Full Rounds, and never One Round. (Ouch that statement hurts my head.)
Edit:Metamagic exception. Metamagics take a Full Round, but that isn't the same as One Round Casting. (That statement sounds a lot better)

So in this case the following would be true.
Round 1, Initiative 15, Start of initial cast.
Round 2, Initiative 14.9, Start of initial cast.
Round 2, Initiative 15, Start of metamagic cast.
Round 2, Initiative 15.9, Start of metamagic cast.

Math_Mage
2010-08-15, 01:37 AM
The OP misunderstands the Rules Compendium quotation. The full-round action casting time is explicitly only applicable to spells with a casting time of 1 standard action. It is explicitly differentiated from spells with a casting time of 1 round or more. This is why the SRD and the Rules Compendium agree: a 1-round spell that has been metamagicked takes effect at the beginning of the caster's turn at round 3.

Defiant
2010-08-15, 01:38 AM
@Peregrine

There are "full round action" spells. They happen when a spontaneous caster applies metamagic to a standard action spell.

So when the rules say "things with longer casting time (like 1-round) take an extra full-round action", then it could very well be that the time equivalent is that of casting a 1-round action, and casting a metamagicked standard action spell - not that of casting 2 1-round actions (though it might be that, based on the interpretation).


If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

The bolded is the source of contention here. Since it seems (apologies if I'm wrong) that you still don't understand what I'm trying to say, I'll do it like this:

Let's say that the spell comes into effect at the beginning of round 3. Then the spell will have taken its original 1-round casting time, and another 1-round casting time (which is a full-round action). That means that the requirements have been met.

Let's say that the spell comes into effect at the end of round 2. Then the spell will have taken its original 1-round casting time, and on top of that a full-round casting time (which is a full-round action). That means that the requirements have been met.

...So which is it? This is the problem.

Argument for beginning of round 3

1-round casting time is a full round action. The rules state that when applying metamagic, you spend another full round action. This implies that this "another" action is the same as before. After all, if I were to tell you "I have an apple and another orange", you would expect me to have an orange before this additional one.

As such, the spell comes into effect at the beginning of round 3.

Argument for end of round 2

1-round casting time is something special that would be spelled out more clearly if it were to happen. Given that the rules state a "full round action", this can only refer to a full round action casting time, since if it were an (additional) 1-round casting time, it would be stated as such. Furthermore, this isn't an issue of RAI vs. RAW, since the "another" idea could easily just mean a full round action on top of what's already there, not necessarily referring to a duplicate of the previous (that being a 1-round casting time).

As such, the spell comes into effect at the end of round 2.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 01:39 AM
Metamagic exception, metamagics are always Full Rounds, and never One Rounds.

Excepting longer-casting time spells, like sending.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 01:42 AM
@Defiant.

There is no mention of "another", the term used is "extra".

Defiant
2010-08-15, 01:46 AM
@Defiant.

There is no mention of "another", the term used is "extra".

Well it's harder to prop up an argument for the 3-round then, though it's still viable.

I'd go with "1 round + full-round" (since it says an extra full-round). Not "1 round + 1 round".

W3bDragon
2010-08-15, 01:48 AM
I don't really see any issue here. Specific trumps general.

General: 1-round casting times always take effect just before the caster's next turn.

Specific: Spontaneous casters using metamagic on spells that take 1 round or longer have to pay a full-round action on top of everything.

Result: Spell takes effect at the end of the caster's next turn, not at the beginning.

Defiant
2010-08-15, 01:50 AM
I don't really see any issue here. Specific trumps general.

General: 1-round casting times always take effect just before the caster's next turn.

Specific: Spontaneous casters using metamagic on spells that take 1 round or longer have to pay a full-round action on top of everything.

Result: Spell takes effect at the end of the caster's next turn, not at the beginning.

The source of contention is that:

- 1 round casting is a full-round action

Therefore

- This paying of a "full-round action" on top of everything could very well be a 1 round casting

Peregrine
2010-08-15, 01:53 AM
@Peregrine

There are "full round action" spells. They happen when a spontaneous caster applies metamagic to a standard action spell.

Not what I meant. I meant that I don't know of any spells that say "Casting Time: 1 full-round action". I know that standard + spontaneous metamagic = full-round (but definitely not 1 round :smalltongue:).


Well it's harder to prop up an argument for the 3-round then, though it's still viable.

I'd go with "1 round + full-round" (since it says an extra full-round). Not "1 round + 1 round".

That's what I said! :smallwink:


The source of contention is that:

- 1 round casting is a full-round action

Therefore

- This paying of a "full-round action" on top of everything could very well be a 1 round casting

I don't see it that way. A spell specified as "1 round" includes a "full-round action". You can't reverse it to say that something specified as a "full-round action" might take "1 round".

Rannil
2010-08-15, 01:54 AM
The source of contention is that:

- 1 round casting is a full-round action

Therefore

- This paying of a "full-round action" on top of everything could very well be a 1 round casting

You are reading deeper in it then I did. There is no reason to assume this, especially because the spell companion states that there is a clear difference.

Originally Posted by Rules Compenidium p. 125
If a spell’s normal casting
time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the
spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This
isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect
during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it.
Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an
extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.
Edit: to be sure

If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

I think we got the answer. It's just the terrible use of 1-round and full-round. Seriously a full-round sounds longer then a 1-round, while a 1-round is longer then full round. 1-round is a casting time for spells, which is also a full-round. A full-round is a action that takes up your movement and standard action for that round.

Round.

Defiant
2010-08-15, 01:56 AM
Full round. These words have lost all their meaning to me.

Peregrine
2010-08-15, 02:00 AM
Full round. These words have lost all their meaning to me.

Shall we rename "full-round action" to "full-turn action"? Because it takes up your full turn that round, but not the full round? :smallsmile:

Actually that makes so much sense that I wish I could go back in time and tell Wizards of the Coast to do it that way from the start...

W3bDragon
2010-08-15, 02:02 AM
The source of contention is that:

- 1 round casting is a full-round action

Therefore

- This paying of a "full-round action" on top of everything could very well be a 1 round casting

Indeed. The reason for the confusion is that they had to define what kind of action is taken from your turn by a 1-round casting time spell. Otherwise I could say that: "It says nowhere in the book that a spell that takes 1-round to cast uses any of my actions. So I'll do a full attack and cast a 1-round spell." Obviously this is not true, because it says that a full-round action is used up.

It might make it clearer if we look at the rest of the description about 1-round or longer cast time spells. It says that you take a full-round action. Then, when your turn is over, you concentrate on the spell until the beginning of your next turn. These are two different things. You're not continuing to a take full-round action while others are taking their turns. You're just concentrating. As such, when they say you pay an extra full-round action, then that's all you have to pay. It doesn't mention anywhere that you have to concentrate again afterwards.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 02:03 AM
Shall we rename "full-round action" to "full-turn action"? Because it takes up your full turn that round, but not the full round? :smallsmile:

Actually that makes so much sense that I wish I could go back in time and tell Wizards of the Coast to do it that way from the start...

That would probably killed most of this discussion, only the metamagic exception is still vague. (aka why is there a exception, it confuses people, although it is for the better for the caster)

Can i sig your quote btw?

Math_Mage
2010-08-15, 02:11 AM
To understand what is meant by 'an extra full-round action', it is instructive to look at spells whose casting time is longer than one round. Consider a spell whose casting time is one minute:


A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

An 'extra full-round action' means that you spend 10 + 1 = 11 rounds 'casting a spell as a full-round action' instead of 10; it does NOT mean that the spell takes effect after 10 rounds and 1 full-round action. As the same rules apply to a spell with a 1-round casting time, the same outcome results: you spend 1 + 1 = 2 rounds 'casting a spell as a full-round action', and the spell takes effect at the beginning of your initiative on turn 3. As I have previously stated, the only spells that involve a full-round action casting time are metamagicked standard action spells, which are clearly identified as an exception in the Rules Compendium quotation from the OP.

Peregrine
2010-08-15, 02:16 AM
That would probably killed most of this discussion, only the metamagic exception is still vague. (aka why is there a exception, it confuses people, although it is for the better for the caster)

I don't see it as an "exception". Or rather, it is an exception to the rule that "any full-roundturn action when casting a spell is just part of a 1-round action". Which isn't part of the rules, just an extrapolation from them.

You're right that not doing it that way would have been less confusing; if metamagic made standard actions into "1 round" casting times, or added 1 round, then it would work like that extrapolation and all would be hunky-dory. But I think that it's actually a whole lot worse for the caster; doing something during your enemies' turn makes it an order of magnitude easier to interrupt. So that'd probably be why they did it.


Can i sig your quote btw?

Who, me? Did I say something sigworthy? :smallconfused:

EDIT:

To understand what is meant by 'an extra full-round action', it is instructive to look at spells whose casting time is longer than one round. Consider a spell whose casting time is one minute:

You're doing that extrapolation I described above. Spells taking one round or longer include full-roundturn actions; that doesn't mean that all full-roundturn actions that pertain to spells must take 1 round.

Temotei
2010-08-15, 02:18 AM
Who, me? Did I say something sigworthy? :smallconfused:

Changing full-round action to full-turn action, I think.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 02:25 AM
To understand what is meant by 'an extra full-round action', it is instructive to look at spells whose casting time is longer than one round. Consider a spell whose casting time is one minute:



An 'extra full-round action' means that you spend 10 + 1 = 11 rounds 'casting a spell as a full-round action' instead of 10; it does NOT mean that the spell takes effect after 10 rounds and 1 full-round action. As the same rules apply to a spell with a 1-round casting time, the same outcome results: you spend 1 + 1 = 2 rounds 'casting a spell as a full-round action', and the spell takes effect at the beginning of your initiative on turn 3. As I have previously stated, the only spells that involve a full-round action casting time are metamagicked standard action spells, which are clearly identified as an exception in the Rules Compendium quotation from the OP.

Wanna make it more confusing. Your version of the rules companion is different then mine.


Originally Posted by Rules Compenidium p. 125
If a spell’s normal casting
time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the
spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This
isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect
during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it.
Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an
extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.

My wording is as followed:

This isn’t the same as a casting time of 1 full round—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.

Although in this case your statement seems to make more sense. The specific mention of a 1 round vs a full round implies two completely different actions. In my case they talk about the same action, and clearly is a different action then a full-turn.

Math_Mage
2010-08-15, 03:18 AM
EDIT:


You're doing that extrapolation I described above. Spells taking one round or longer include full-roundturn actions; that doesn't mean that all full-roundturn actions that pertain to spells must take 1 round.

Indeed not: standard action spells that are metamagicked have a full-round action casting time. However, in every other case where the term 'full-round action' is applied to spellcasting, it is in relation to x-round casting times. Let's consider the relevant Rules Compendium page in entirety:


ROUND
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is like a full-round action, but unlike most full-round actions, the results don’t happen by the end of your turn. Instead, the spell comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after the one in which you began casting the spell. You then take your turn normally after the spell comes into effect.

1 MINUTE
A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn 1 minute (10 rounds) later. For each of those 10 rounds, you’re casting a spell as a full-round action. These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell fails.

LONGER TIMES
Casting a spell that has a casting time longer than 1 minute doesn’t usually happen in combat. If it does, every round of casting requires a full-round action, and all the actions required to cast the spell must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell fails.

SPONTANEOUS METAMAGIC SPELLS
Spontaneous spellcasters, including those who normally prepare spells but can spontaneously cast particular spells, must take more time to cast a metamagic spell—a spell enhanced by one or more metamagic feats. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.

Underlined is the exception for applying metamagic to standard-action spells. All other references to casting with 1 full-round action, 10 full-round actions, or an 'extra' full-round action refer to 1-round, 10-round, or extra-round casting times. This is not extrapolation. It is merely what the rules say.


Wanna make it more confusing. Your version of the rules companion is different then mine.

You are quoting the very same section I quoted in the Simple RAW Q&A thread. It's the same passage, word-for-word--even the same bolding. You merely did not notice that the bolded section only applies to standard-action spells.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 03:47 AM
You are quoting the very same section I quoted in the Simple RAW Q&A thread. It's the same passage, word-for-word--even the same bolding. You merely did not notice that the bolded section only applies to standard-action spells.

Did you even read it? There is a difference between your version quote, the one I did use, and my version quote, the one in my last post.

Yes I quoted you because it was easier, but your version, all those quotes, are different from my version. That version I have much clearly supports your idea. where your version makes a difference.

Let's quote hem both fully

Your version, from your last post

SPONTANEOUS METAMAGIC SPELLS
Spontaneous spellcasters, including those who normally prepare spells but can spontaneously cast particular spells, must take more time to cast a metamagic spell—a spell enhanced by one or more metamagic feats. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.

My version.

SPONTANEOUS METAMAGIC SPELLS
Spontaneous spellcasters choose spells as they cast them, and they can choose whether to apply metamagic feats when they cast their spells. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Since spontaneous spellcasters don’t prepare metamagic spells in advance, they must apply a metamagic feat on the spot. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn’t the same as a casting time of 1 full round—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.


The major difference is in the bold part but the complete entry is different. And I repeat:

Although in this case your statement seems to make more sense. The specific mention of a 1 round vs a full round implies two completely different actions. In my case they talk about the same action, and clearly is a different action then a full-turn.

So my version much clearer supports your argument then your own version. I do agree with you, especially with all the mentioned quotes together, but I as thrown off by the fact that your version makes a separation between 1 round actions and extra full round actions. Again, it seems to imply two different actions.

Edit: putted the word extra in it, important little bugger.

Peregrine
2010-08-15, 04:09 AM
Underlined is the exception for applying metamagic to standard-action spells. All other references to casting with 1 full-round action, 10 full-round actions, or an 'extra' full-round action refer to 1-round, 10-round, or extra-round casting times. This is not extrapolation. It is merely what the rules say.

But it's not an "exception", and so it is an "extrapolation". Nowhere does it say "every full-roundturn action in spellcasting is part of a 1-round action (but metamagic is an exception)". It just happens to be that there are only two cases (thus far presented) where full-roundturn actions come up in spellcasting: "1 round" (or longer) spells, and metamagic. It's an extrapolation because you're generalising one into a rule, and then saying the other must be an exception because it doesn't match.

Neither establishes a general case for full-roundturn actions and spellcasting; they just deal with their own specific domains. Neither precludes supplementary rules from coming along that work like one or the other. Metamagic is specifically called out to avoid confusion, not because it's an exception. If it weren't called out, the rule would still exist (because "1 round" and "full-round action" are already defined as different), but a lot more people would be a lot more confused. (If that's possible. :smalltongue:)

Or to put it another way, you could say that metamagic is the normal one, because it works more like other full-roundturn actions. And then "1 round" (or longer) spells are the exception; they're full-roundturn actions that don't end when your turn does.


Changing full-round action to full-turn action, I think.

Huh. Well, if that's the case, then by all means go ahead. :smallredface:

WarKitty
2010-08-15, 09:06 AM
Wow I started a good one here didn't I! :smallamused: (Was my post in the Q&A thread)

Anyways, for clarity since I didn't post this originally: I was considering applying the extend spell feat to a spontaneously cast summon nature's ally.

Normal Summon Nature's Ally: one-round cast time, cast on my initiative on turn one and comes into effect just before my initiative on turn 2.

Metamagic feat: adds a full round action to that.

Raptor2213
2010-08-15, 09:12 AM
I think you're forgetting one major thing. Neither metamagic nor full-round casting say that they increase the casting time of a spell by any factor. Metamagic merely raises it TO a 1-round cast (which is less than or equal to a full-round).

The casting time of a metamagiced full round cast spell as cast by a sorcerer remains 1 full round.

WarKitty
2010-08-15, 09:16 AM
I think you're forgetting one major thing. Neither metamagic nor full-round casting say that they increase the casting time of a spell by any factor. Metamagic merely raises it TO a 1-round cast (which is less than or equal to a full-round).

The casting time of a metamagiced full round cast spell as cast by a sorcerer remains 1 full round.


For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

(1) A 1-round casting time is longer than a full round.

(2) Only spells with an original casting time of 1 standard action are increased to a full round casting time. Longer spells follow the SRD quote above.

Peregrine
2010-08-15, 10:09 AM
Also, I think you've got "full-round" and "1-round" backwards:


Metamagic merely raises it TO a 1-round cast (which is less than or equal to a full-round).

Spontaneous metamagic raises a standard action to a full-round action, which is strictly less than 1 round (but which would be part of an action taking "1 round").

Rannil
2010-08-15, 10:58 AM
(1) A 1-round casting time is longer than a full round.

(2) Only spells with an original casting time of 1 standard action are increased to a full round casting time. Longer spells follow the SRD quote above.

To keep it way simpler, with metamagics you have to remember two things.

(1) Standard actions casting times turn into a full-turn. A full-turn is a standard and a move action, and it will finish in the same initiative of the same round.
(2) In all other cases it will add an extra 1-round casting time. Aka the spell will finish one round later right before your initiative.

And yes it kinda obvious now, but I am looking for a easy way to quote it.

Does this also mean that a spell with a casting time of "1 day" will now be "1 day and 6 seconds"? :smalltongue:

Peregrine
2010-08-15, 11:51 AM
(2) In all other cases it will add an extra 1-round casting time. Aka the spell will finish one round later right before your initiative.

No, it adds an extra full-round (now known as full-turn :smalltongue:) action, so the casting will finish in the same round, only at the end of your turn instead of at the beginning.

This is actually very easily summarised: "Spontaneously applying metamagic to a spell means the casting goes until the end of your turn -- in whatever round you would otherwise have finished casting it."

Defiant
2010-08-15, 12:01 PM
I think the issue here is that people still aren't convinced of the result.

Is an extra full round action
- a full round action
or
- a 1-round action?

Yes, I did word it like that specifically to show how stupid the WoTC managed to do the wording.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 12:02 PM
No, it adds an extra full-round (now known as full-turn :smalltongue:) action, so the casting will finish in the same round, only at the end of your turn instead of at the beginning.

This is actually very easily summarised: "Spontaneously applying metamagic to a spell means the casting goes until the end of your turn -- in whatever round you would otherwise have finished casting it."

Did you miss the last couple of post, Math Mage was right, although with a wrong quote from the Rules Compendium. My version seems to support his argument way better, should I re-quote it all again? In the bigger picture it makes a lot more sense.

Edit: I will re-quote, incoming

Defiant
2010-08-15, 12:03 PM
Did you miss the last couple of post, Math Mage was right, although with a wrong quote from the Rules Compendium. My version seems to support his argument way better, should I re-quote it all again? In the bigger picture it makes a lot more sense.

You can't admit defeat in a debate!!

You have to keep restating your point, ignoring any counter-points if necessary (such as, if they're actually true).

Rannil
2010-08-15, 12:10 PM
You can't admit defeat in a debate!!

You have to keep restating your point, ignoring any counter-points if necessary (such as, if they're actually true).
Errr... what? :smallconfused:

I was constantly "fighting" (arguing) with Math Mage over this point, and he won.

And the whole point is about "how to read" said vague lines described by wizard. You don't even seem to have read the part where I accepted defeat...

Anyway:

Originally Posted by Rules Compendium p. 125
ROUND
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is like a full-round action, but unlike most full-round actions, the results don’t happen by the end of your turn. Instead, the spell comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after the one in which you began casting the spell. You then take your turn normally after the spell comes into effect.

1 MINUTE
A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn 1 minute (10 rounds) later. For each of those 10 rounds, you’re casting a spell as a full-round action. These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell fails.

LONGER TIMES
Casting a spell that has a casting time longer than 1 minute doesn’t usually happen in combat. If it does, every round of casting requires a full-round action, and all the actions required to cast the spell must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell fails.


SPONTANEOUS METAMAGIC SPELLS
Spontaneous spellcasters choose spells as they cast them, and they can choose whether to apply metamagic feats when they cast their spells. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Since spontaneous spellcasters don’t prepare metamagic spells in advance, they must apply a metamagic feat on the spot. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn’t the same as a casting time of 1 full round—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.

This is the bigger picture, now let's zoom in.


If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn’t the same as a casting time of 1 full round—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it (Aka Full Turn). Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast spontaneously.
Italic sentence is not a part of the original quote and is added to clarify said action.

In this case, the blue part obviously refers to the green part, just using context alone. Also* there is a opposition between the blue part an the dark red part.
Edit: I should say, due the green and blue parts using the same terms, there is a different between the blue(/green) and dark red parts.

Which leads to the conclusion, the extra full-round action is different from the earlier described full turn.

Defiant
2010-08-15, 12:13 PM
I was joking :smallwink:


And it seems that it does make sense. Full-round action is the exception - it's not the same thing as 1 round. So when we get an extra action, it's of the type 1-round, not of the exception.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 12:16 PM
I was joking :smallwink:


And it seems that it does make sense. Full-round action is the exception - it's not the same thing as 1 round. So when we get an extra action, it's of the type 1-round, not of the exception.

Then at least add a smiley, I'm running on way to low energy levels and must resort to high caffeine induced grumpiness. [insert smiley here]

Anyhow, take the edit in consideration, it's a better worded argument. :smallwink:

Defiant
2010-08-15, 12:19 PM
Then at least add a smiley

Alright, let me try again:



You can't admit defeat in a debate!! :smallmad:

You have to keep restating your point, ignoring any counter-points if necessary (such as, if they're actually true). :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:


That help? :smallamused:

Yora
2010-08-15, 12:26 PM
I don't see why there's any question left if you read the description of using metamagic feats as a spontaneous caster and of 1 round actions.

The real question is: If you cast a 1-round spell, do you have to make concentration checks after you finished your first turn, but before the spell comes into effect at the beginning of your next turn?

Rannil
2010-08-15, 12:30 PM
Alright, let me try again:



You can't admit defeat in a debate!! :smallmad:

You have to keep restating your point, ignoring any counter-points if necessary (such as, if they're actually true). :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:


That help? :smallamused:

Yes, now you trigger my "it' a troll" warning.

Anyhow, my argument still sounds weird, maybe someone else can better word it. t least you got it.

-Blue and green part are related.
-Green part is obviously different from dark red part
--Dark red being an exception to the green part
-Because Blue is related to green, green is different to dark red we can assume Blue is different from Dark Red.
--Those the action described n Blue is not the same action is Dark Red.
---Thus the action in Blue is not a full turn, thus must be a 1-round.
See also the bigger picture of various other casting times. They seem to hint at all longer casting times follow the rules of 1 round casting. One would say it is logic that meta magic follow that same rule when they reach longer then 1 round casting times.

And now it sounds like maths. That does explain the Math Mage presence.
*Hits himself for corny joke*



I don't see why there's any question left if you read the description of using metamagic feats as a spontaneous caster and of 1 round actions.

The real question is: If you cast a 1-round spell, do you have to make concentration checks after you finished your first turn, but before the spell comes into effect at the beginning of your next turn?
You do agree the wording is vague at best ad confuses both new and sleep lacking people? (And probably people who never bothered to study it in depth or wanting to cast longer spells spontaneous with metamagics.)

Your question is a easy answer.

You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell,

So no, unless the spell specific mentions it or when you are "potentially distracted", most likely because enemies attack you.

tyckspoon
2010-08-15, 12:31 PM
The real question is: If you cast a 1-round spell, do you have to make concentration checks after you finished your first turn, but before the spell comes into effect at the beginning of your next turn?

Yes. You are still casting the spell during that time, and so are still subject to disruptions.

Peregrine
2010-08-15, 12:35 PM
Did you miss the last couple of post, Math Mage was right, although with a wrong quote from the Rules Compendium.

No, I read them... although I seem to have missed the part where we agreed that "extra full-round action" means "1 extra round" instead of, well, an extra full-round action. :smallconfused:

And I don't see how the Rules Compendium supports this either... in fact it seems to me to say exactly the same as the PHB/SRD, though with slightly rearranged wording.


Italic sentence is not a part of the original quote and is added to clarify said action.

Hey, let's add it to both mentions of "full-round action" then:

If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round turn action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn’t the same as a casting time of 1 full round—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round turn action to cast spontaneously.

Now run this by me again: why is this second mention of a "full-round turn action" different to the first one?


In this case, the blue part obviously refers to the green part, just using context alone. Also* there is a opposition between the blue part an the dark red part.
Edit: I should say, due the green and blue parts using the same terms, there is a different between the blue(/green) and dark red parts.

Which leads to the conclusion, the extra full-round action is different from the earlier described full turn.

Okay, colour me confused. I did not follow that at all. :smallfrown:
In the green sentence, you've written "1 full round". That's different to what has been quoted from the Compendium earlier, e.g.:


If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast spontaneously. I don't have the Rules Compendium, but that's also what's in the PHB/SRD. So the blue and green sentences don't use the same words at all!
Why does the blue sentence "obviously" refer to the green one? The green one is talking about spells with a standard-action casting time. The blue one is talking about spells that take longer.
I think you're saying this: "Green sentence says of lengthened standard-action spells, 'this isn't the same as a 1-round casting time'. Therefore when blue sentence says 'full-round action', green sentence means that it is the same as '1 round'." That doesn't seem logical to me.

Yes, the blue and dark red sentences are different. But the difference is that dark red talks about modifying "Casting Time: 1 standard action". The green one talks about modifying anything with "Casting Time: 1 round" or "Casting Time: x rounds/minutes/hours/days". When the light red sentence and the blue sentence say "full-round action", they both mean exactly the same thing; green's "this isn't the same" is not talking about this.

Yora
2010-08-15, 12:47 PM
You do agree the wording is vague at best ad confuses both new and sleep lacking people? (And probably people who never bothered to study it in depth or wanting to cast longer spells spontaneous with metamagics.)
It's easy to overlook (I've never seen it in 10 years) and requires careful reading. But I don't think it's hard to understand.


Casting Time: [...] A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

Sorcerers and Bards: [...] If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

Standard Action = Standard Action, effect immediately.
Standard Action + Metamagic = Full-Round Action, effect immediately.
1 round = Full-Round Action, effect at the beginning of the next turn.
1 round + Metamagic = 2 Full-Round Actions, effect at the beginning of the third turn.

Easy!

Rannil
2010-08-15, 12:58 PM
@Peregrine. Did Yora's explanation help?

Or my mathematics ones?


-Blue and green part are related.
-Green part is obviously different from dark red part
--Dark red being an exception to the green part
-Because Blue is related to green, green is different to dark red we can assume Blue is different from Dark Red.
--Those the action described n Blue is not the same action is Dark Red.
---Thus the action in Blue is not a full turn, thus must be a 1-round.
See also the bigger picture of various other casting times. They seem to hint at all longer casting times follow the rules of 1 round casting. One would say it is logic that meta magic follow that same rule when they reach longer then 1 round casting times.

I currently using my mathematics feeling on this, instead d&d... logic? Is there "d&d logic", that sounds illogical....

Else i give it another explaining go, maybe in literary feeling. It's all about how you read the flow of the sentences.

Otherwise astrological, the way the stars align must mean people born in February are right today? :smalltongue:

Math_Mage
2010-08-15, 03:12 PM
Did you even read it? There is a difference between your version quote, the one I did use, and my version quote, the one in my last post.

Hunh. I didn't notice that quotation at all, only the one from the OP (which is, word-for-word, the same). The difference between "this isn't the same as a 1-round casting time" and "this isn't the same as a casting time of one full round" shouldn't make a difference, though.


But it's not an "exception", and so it is an "extrapolation". Nowhere does it say "every full-roundturn action in spellcasting is part of a 1-round action (but metamagic is an exception)". It just happens to be that there are only two cases (thus far presented) where full-roundturn actions come up in spellcasting: "1 round" (or longer) spells, and metamagic. It's an extrapolation because you're generalising one into a rule, and then saying the other must be an exception because it doesn't match.

If that is the argument, I suppose there is an extrapolation. Which leaves the question of why that is a problem when it's the logical method of interpretation. Metamagicked round-based spells add "an extra full-round action." Well, what is an extra full-round action when casting spells? Refer to: all other full-round actions used to cast spells, which are part of round-based casting time. The ONLY full-round action not used in this way is listed as an exception to the normal rules for casting a 1-round spell with a full-round action--'normal' because 1-round casting time is mentioned under 'casting time' and full-round action casting is not.


No, I read them... although I seem to have missed the part where we agreed that "extra full-round action" means "1 extra round" instead of, well, an extra full-round action. :smallconfused:

And I don't see how the Rules Compendium supports this either... in fact it seems to me to say exactly the same as the PHB/SRD, though with slightly rearranged wording.

That's because the PHB/SRD also makes metamagicked 1-round spells take effect on turn 3. It's merely easier to illustrate this by referring to the Rules Compendium.


Hey, let's add it to both mentions of "full-round action" then:


Now run this by me again: why is this second mention of a "full-round turn action" different to the first one?

Because the first one is established as a corner case: a standard action spell with metamagic applied takes 1 full round action to cast, and unlike 1-round spells, it takes effect at end of initiative. Period, full stop, end of any discussion of full-round actions of that type. The definition explicitly does not carry over to round-based casting, so the second full-round action has a different implication.


Okay, colour me confused. I did not follow that at all. :smallfrown:
In the green sentence, you've written "1 full round". That's different to what has been quoted from the Compendium earlier, e.g.: I don't have the Rules Compendium, but that's also what's in the PHB/SRD. So the blue and green sentences don't use the same words at all!
Why does the blue sentence "obviously" refer to the green one? The green one is talking about spells with a standard-action casting time. The blue one is talking about spells that take longer.
I think you're saying this: "Green sentence says of lengthened standard-action spells, 'this isn't the same as a 1-round casting time'. Therefore when blue sentence says 'full-round action', green sentence means that it is the same as '1 round'." That doesn't seem logical to me.

The blue sentence is explicitly separated from the red sentence by the green sentence. To find out what the blue sentence means, we refer back to the general descriptions of casting time, which use full-round actions for round-based casting. Yora's post does a good job of juxtaposing the relevant rules.

Peregrine
2010-08-16, 04:40 AM
@Peregrine. Did Yora's explanation help?

No. Yora's post was a wonderfully clear and concise explanation of the "takes effect next round" position in the debate, but it didn't explain how the rules support that position. Let me see if I can be as clear and concise (by totally cribbing Yora's layout :smallwink:)...

Standard Action = Standard Action, effect immediately.
Standard Action + Metamagic = Full-Round Action, effect immediately at the end of this turn.
1 round = Full-Round Action, effect at the beginning of the next turn.
1 round + Metamagic = 2 Full-Round Actions, effect at the beginning of the third turn end of the second turn.


Because the first one is established as a corner case: a standard action spell with metamagic applied takes 1 full round action to cast, and unlike 1-round spells, it takes effect at end of initiative.

Ahh, so perhaps this is the crux of the argument: Full-round casting (standard + metamagic) is not a corner case. It works exactly the same as all other full-round actions (full attack, run, etc. etc.) You take the action, and when your turn ends, you're no longer acting.

Casting a "1 round" spell is the corner case here. The only reason (I believe) that it is explicitly said to take a full-round action is because otherwise, as W3bDragon pointed out, it would be a loophole on par with the drowning rules. ("It doesn't say that I have to spend any actions at all to cast a 1-round spell!") And then they point out that full-round and 1-round spells are different to (hehe) avoid confusion. :smalltongue: