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View Full Version : [3.5] Armor cost for non-standard shapes and sizes



Frosty
2010-08-15, 02:24 AM
Let's say you've got a large non-humanoid that you need barding for (a horse would be a pretty good example) and you want a magical Mithril Chain Shirt equivalent for the barding. The PHB states that the cost is 4x normal, but it does not seem to be clear about which part of the cost is multiplied.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the magical enhancement costs are NOT multiplied, as they are added on last. What I am concerned abo0ut is the cost of the special material. The DMG says that a light armor made out of mithril adds on 1000 gold to the cost. Is this 1000 gold multiplied by 4 for the barding? Or is it just the basic armor cost that is multiplied by 4? Common sense says the former, but I want to double check here.

Halae
2010-08-15, 02:27 AM
That's a DM call right there. personally, I'd say that double the adamantine costs double the money, but others may disagree

but it may be resolved easily. is there a rule regarding size changes and masterwork costs? that would apply to different materials as well

Rannil
2010-08-15, 02:45 AM
I don't believe either masterwork or material costs is doubled for special creatures. Masterwork isn't also doubled for large size, but one would assume material costs are.
But I can't find any solid quote on it...

I do think it's logic that a smith who can make such a barding would ask extra money for it, because it's a rare talent and not often asked for. But that's not RAW covered.

Kaww
2010-08-15, 02:47 AM
Special material cost is increased. Chants and masterwork component are not.

lightningcat
2010-08-15, 03:27 AM
I believe that you may be doing something that D&D doesn't expect, gearing up a mount with good gear. I mean, you're using your money to equip someone else. Blasphemy.:smallbiggrin:

As a DM, I would would rule it as 4x (base armor cost + special material modifier). More material means more material cost.

Frosty
2010-08-15, 11:58 AM
I believe that you may be doing something that D&D doesn't expect, gearing up a mount with good gear. I mean, you're using your money to equip someone else. Blasphemy.:smallbiggrin:

As a DM, I would would rule it as 4x (base armor cost + special material modifier). More material means more material cost.
Well, on a Paladin, it'd really not hard to see why gearing up the portion of your strategy that allows you to deal the most damage is sensible.

Is this answered anywhere within like Sage rulings or articles online?

Rannil
2010-08-15, 12:50 PM
Well I think I got your answer, you ain't going to be happy.

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialmaterials.htm)

It states that mithral has a fixed price. In your case this fixed price is "+500 gp/lb." Also mithral includes the price of masterwork, so that part can be scrapped from he costs.

So you will end with:
100 GP (cost of chain shirt) * 4 (for large creatures of unusual size) + 25000 gp/ (the armors weighs 50, that times 500...)
Or 25400 GP, insanely expensive, but 100% raw.

You might want to convince your DM that light armors uses the rule of 1000 GP/25 GB, or 40 GP/1 LB, because that is how a normal mithral chain shirt works in pricing.

tyckspoon
2010-08-15, 12:59 PM
Well I think I got your answer, you ain't going to be happy.

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialmaterials.htm)

It states that mithral has a fixed price. In your case this fixed price is "+500 gp/lb." Also mithral includes the price of masterwork, so that part can be scrapped from he costs.
.

Disagree with reasoning. Mithril armors do not use pricing by weight (and mithril stuff only weighs half as much anyway, so you should be calculating based on 25 pounds.) The fact that you are making armor for an unusually-shaped creature does not change the fact that you are making armor, and therefore should be referring to the much cheaper fixed-rate costs for mithril armor.

I would put Mithril Chain(shirt) horse barding at 1,400 GP. The text on unusually-sized/shaped armor says to look up the standard armor table and then apply the multipliers; every other price-modification (mithril, masterwork) would then be applied after that. So 400 gp for the base armor, and then +1000 for making a light armor of mithril.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 01:02 PM
Disagree with reasoning. Mithril armors do not use pricing by weight (and mithril stuff only weighs half as much anyway, so you should be calculating based on 25 pounds.) The fact that you are making armor for an unusually-shaped creature does not change the fact that you are making armor, and therefore should be referring to the much cheaper fixed-rate costs for mithril armor.

I would put Mithril Chain(shirt) horse barding at 1,400 GP. The text on unusually-sized/shaped armor says to look up the standard armor table and then apply the multipliers; every other price-modification (mithril, masterwork) would then be applied after that. So 400 gp for the base armor, and then +1000 for making a light armor of mithril.

Okay, depends on whether you see barding as a "other item" or as "light armor"... Second is more logical.

Meh, my bad, but there is mithral pricing that is based on weight, you cannot deny that!" It's in the SRD, maybe just not for barding.

tyckspoon
2010-08-15, 01:11 PM
Meh, my bad, but there is mithral pricing that is based on weight, you cannot deny that!" It's in the SRD, maybe just not for barding.

Oh, absolutely, but you should try not to mix the two- it's another one of the many, many ways the D&D economy explodes. Buy a Mithril Chainshirt for 1,100 GP, turn around and sell it to the same smith by metal weight for 6250 GP.. and then, thanks to the Craft rules (you only need 1/3 the GP value of the finished product as raw material) he can then take that *exact same quantity of mithril*, already known to comprise 1 finished shirt, and make..hmm.. If I'm following the math correctly, 18-and-a-bit mithril shirts.

.... well, that kind of bizarre self-multiplying property is why he can afford to sell ~6k worth of mithril as a ~1k armor in the first place, I guess.

Frosty
2010-08-15, 01:13 PM
Disagree with reasoning. Mithril armors do not use pricing by weight (and mithril stuff only weighs half as much anyway, so you should be calculating based on 25 pounds.) The fact that you are making armor for an unusually-shaped creature does not change the fact that you are making armor, and therefore should be referring to the much cheaper fixed-rate costs for mithril armor.

I would put Mithril Chain(shirt) horse barding at 1,400 GP. The text on unusually-sized/shaped armor says to look up the standard armor table and then apply the multipliers; every other price-modification (mithril, masterwork) would then be applied after that. So 400 gp for the base armor, and then +1000 for making a light armor of mithril.
So you'd say that a Dragonhide Chain Shirt barding would only cost 4x100 + 150*2 for a total of 700 gold? And that an Adamantine chain shirt barding would only cost 4x100+5000 for 5400 gold?

There might be a possibility for a "ladder costing less than 2 10-ft poles" situation here...

tyckspoon
2010-08-15, 01:15 PM
So you'd say that a Dragonhide Chain Shirt barding would only cost 4x100 + 150*2 for a total of 700 gold? And that an Adamantine chain shirt barding would only cost 4x100+5000 for 5400 gold?

There might be a possibility for a "ladder costing less than 2 10-ft poles" situation here...

Already exists, see above post. :smallamused: Special materials costs are not at all rational.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-15, 01:16 PM
You probably should leave the weight as a last modifier for cost. As in, calculate how it'd be for this weight, then apply the weight modifier from the material.

Rannil
2010-08-15, 01:16 PM
So you'd say that a Dragonhide Chain Shirt barding would only cost 4x100 + 150*2 for a total of 700 gold? And that an Adamantine chain shirt barding would only cost 4x100+5000 for 5400 gold?

There might be a possibility for a "ladder costing less than 2 10-ft poles" situation here...

Dragonhide uses different rules then Mithral and Adamantine . You are right about the Adamantine.

Dragonhide says the following:

Dragonhide armor costs double what masterwork armor of that type ordinarily costs, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type.
Or 250*4 = 1000, that * 2 = 2000 GP

Frosty
2010-08-15, 01:18 PM
Already exists, see above post. :smallamused: Special materials costs are not at all rational.
SO that's why dwarven nations are so rich...

Rannil
2010-08-15, 01:20 PM
SO that's why dwarven nations are so rich...

And that's also why there is so much mithral in a gameworld even though it's "very rare".

Philistine
2010-08-15, 04:42 PM
Of course, the problem with adding the cost of mithral after multiplying for unusual size/shape is that you're getting (and working) twice as much of this "rare and valuable" material for no extra cost. That makes sense with enchantments, but with "rare and valuable" materials? Not so much. I would price mithral chain shirt horse barding at 4400 gp: four times the cost of a mithral chain shirt for a medium humanoid creature, which is 1100 gp. (Weight of course comes out the same no matter which way you work it, since both operations are multiplication.)

But since RAW does not specify the order of operations to use when combining multiple modifiers (costs for unusual size and shape and costs for special materials both modify the price on the standard armor table), it's pretty much "whatever you can talk your DM into."

Rannil
2010-08-16, 01:38 AM
But since RAW does not specify the order of operations to use when combining multiple modifiers (costs for unusual size and shape and costs for special materials both modify the price on the standard armor table), it's pretty much "whatever you can talk your DM into."
They sort of do.


Armor for Unusual Creatures: The cost of armor for nonhumanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are neither Small nor Medium, varies from the values given on Tables 7–3 and 7–4, as described in the Armor for Unusual Creatures sidebar on page 123 of the Player’s Handbook. The cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same.
(DMG 217)
Masterwork quality if unaffected by Unusual or large size. Thus it's added to the item costs after the base item is multiplied by the modifier.

Mithral includes masterwork in it's price, so it's logic it would be added in the same step of the calculation.

Well I do agree that the item should cost more for large size (more materials), it shouldn't for unusual size. That's personal opinion though.

Frosty
2010-08-16, 01:42 AM
Oh wow. Thanks for a definitive answer. That means my Dire Bear *can* have his Admanatine barding if I wish...

Rannil
2010-08-16, 01:53 AM
Oh wow. Thanks for a definitive answer. That means my Dire Bear *can* have his Admanatine barding if I wish...

What also helps is this quote:

To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price
Where they just flat out call masterwork an component and completely separate it from the base item. It seems Mithral and Adamantine also are "components" in a craft. Not part of the base item.

Aka D&D smiths are really cheap scum. They make normal armor and then add a layer of rare material to improve it and up the costs, instead of making the entire thing out of said rare material. :smalltongue:

Frosty
2010-08-16, 02:09 AM
So where's my Adamantine Sheen and Cold Iron Sheen? :smallbiggrin: