OOTS #742 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Iferus]

I love tarquin.

Edit: Also, was should be wash (fourth panel)

[The Giant]

Edit: Also, was should be wash (fourth panel)

Now fixed.

[chrestomancy]

Sounds to me like Tarquin is going to join the attackers.

[Querzis]

Heh, gotta admit, Tarquin keep getting more awesome. Anyway, I like Haley new dress and the Empire of Tears really made me laugh.

[Kareasint]

There seems to be a communication problem between Elan and his father. Tarquin is a fairly smooth operator.

Weepies. Best degrading nickname that I have seen in a while.

[Excalibur]

Amun-Zora looks really cool. I hope she becomes relevant :smallsmile:

[Fruchtkracher]

Ooh, poor Durcon is totaly misinterpreted =)
And the "free city of doom" sounds like a place for only happy people to live :smalleek:

[CoffeeIncluded]

Ah, see this is the problem with extended innuendo. :smalltongue:

Nice dress, Haley.

[Frog Dragon]

Cool strip. Anxious to see the tournament though.
Edit: I didn't get swordsage'd? What is this madness!!??

[oddtail]

The double entendre of "dwarf ally" made me happy.

The shape of the moon... it's a bit weird, methinks. Given the recent events, it *could* be a space station, of course, but I doubt it.

[whitelaughter]

Anyone else notice that Tarquin didn't say which side the Dragoons will be fighting on?
(Nice touch calling soldiers serving a dragon, dragoons).

[Wormwood74]

This is like some episode of "When double entendres go bad"

Will Tarquin really send a bunch of dragons? ANd will they really aid the Free City of Doom?

[Zerg Cookie]

The shape of the moon makes sense. We don't know how big the moon is in relation to the planet or how far it is anyway (If anyone starts a speculation thread about it I'll find a way to make them suffer).

Also, Tarquin is awesome and Haley's dress is nice

[Aris Katsaris]

Will Tarquin really send a bunch of dragons?

He said "dragoons" not "dragons". Dragoons means mounted infantry or light cavalry.

[Lycan 01]

I love Tarquin. So very, very much.

[abbott.e]

Anyone else notice that Tarquin didn't say which side the Dragoons will be fighting on?
(Nice touch calling soldiers serving a dragon, dragoons).
I think that they too, will have been given discretion, whichever side will benefit most from a sudden sneak Dragoon attack,will suddenly find themselves 500 Dragoons to the good, and a swift annexation to the bad.These map boarders don't redraw themselves you know.

[Elder Tsofu]

Hehe, once again the giant have extended my life a little. :smallbiggrin:

[StreetPizza]

Elan certainly knows his father (and himself) well. Also, is the 500-dragoon charge taking place at dawn in any related to Tarquin's sense of the dramatic? I mean, a cavalry charge at dawn is certainly cooler looking than one at mid-day or night.

[Taekwondodo]

:smallbiggrin:
Extended innuendo's are the best!

[Morph Bark]

Ha! Quite some interesting euphemisms in there. Never heard any of 'em before.


I think that they too, will have been given discretion, whichever side will benefit most from a sudden sneak Dragoon attack,will suddenly find themselves 500 Dragoons to the good, and a swift annexation to the bad.These map boarders don't redraw themselves you know.

And depending on which side is chosen, if he plays it right, he'll instantly have a slave mistress from the conquered side! :smallwink:

[thubby]

so much innuendo! *dies*

[Maximum Zersk]

Oh my god, that Lizardfolk has a monocle! :smallbiggrin:

[recluso]

Personally I'm not sure Tarquin will actually intervene. Tomorrow is so conveniently not yet.
As soon Amun-Zora has met Tarquins secret Giant Ally tonight, she might have mysterious circumstances nexxt.

[Alagaesian]

Heh. All the ambassadors' nations are actually on the map that Roy uses in comic 698!

[Locnil]

So that's how he keeps scoring, despite all the mysterious circumstances.

[Weimann]

I'm uncertain troops are actually dispatched. It sounds terribly much like an improvised pick-up line.

Also, if troops ARE dispatched, there's no promise of which side they will take, as has already been mentioned.

And still, Tarquin is wonderful.

[fishboy]

I notice he's saying nothing about on which SIDE the dragoons will join the battle :smallbiggrin:
Edit: Urgh, ninjaed multiple times, can someone help me remove all these shurikens?

[factotum]

I think everything I wanted to say has been said...pesky ninjas! :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

Tarquin looks like he's shaping up to be a pretty major NPC- charming but ruthless.

[IdleMuse]

I want to see more throwaway NPCs with monocles.

Also, something tells me that we'll be seeing more of the Empire of Tears. What are the odds a PC ended up in that unit of dragoons?

[Cizak]

How come every member of Elan's family is so awesome?

[Shatteredtower]

I think prefer dining with the Empress to enduring so much innuendo.

[Neopolis]

Now I kind of want to see a comic with Elan's mom in it*, to see if she's just as entertaining.




*for more than one panel!

[sockmonkey]

Man, wait an hour to post and all the good comments are made. Oh well.
It's not hard to make spelunking sound dirty anyhow.
The moon thing bugged me too. At first I thought it might be a second smaller moon, but then it would be lit up like the first one. So either their moon is farther away or it's artistic license.
Lizardfolk-with-a-monocle needs to be a forum avatar.

[squidbreath]

I don't think I understand any of the Euphemisms. :smalltongue:
Say, is any of that wine poisoned?

[Manicotti]

Epic as always. The title is my favorite part.

[maxon]

Also, something tells me that we'll be seeing more of the Empire of Tears. What are the odds a PC ended up in that unit of dragoons?

What? Are you saying Roy has been dragooned into it?

[Draconi Redfir]

i really hope those dragoons are going to help the city of doom :smalleek:

also: Elan's dad is a pimp! XD

[Ichneumon]

About the moon: we know to little to know whether or not it is accurate, for all we know the planet could be the moon's moon, also, it looks good. Do we really expect mr Burlew to study astrophysics before he can responsibly draw a moon in his fantasy stick-figure comic?

Apparently, we do...

[Lupusater]

Remember kids, for your occasions nothing is more formal than a sash. NOTHING.

[Lord Loss]

Silly, Silly Elan...

[willpell]

Having always been a big fan of lizardmen, I must say that seeing one in a general's uniform with a monacle has made my day. I'd be happy if a few strips were devoted to showing us an in-depth look at Reptilia's culture, though of course this is fairly unlikely.

I find it amusing that the Empire of Blood has buildings with onion domes on the towers that look like giant blood drops. Presumably a similar style of architecture prevails in the Empire of Tears? Maybe the ruler of that Empire is a blue dragon.

Anyone else find it odd that the Free City's ambassador speaks of the Weepies' "misguided drive to conquer us all"? That such a drive is misguided pretty much goes without saying; it makes me wonder if the Weepies are actually forces of good (the Free City of Doom might be Free only in the sense of being Chaotic Evil), or at least that they figure everyone in this part of the world is so miserable that killing them all would be doing them a favor. (Hah, the Empire of Emo.)

[Faramir]

"I wouldn't call him a dwarf" lol.

Tarquin is definitely not one to bring a dagger to a sword fight.

[Asthix]

I like the 1st panel. Any argument about the moon must be spillover from the 'favorite planet' hijacking of the Favorite Linear Guild Character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161665) thread.

And sure, 'Weepies' is the funniest derogatory term in a while, but what if the Emipre of tears isn't completely obliterated now? Weepies will end up being one of those taboo words because of the integration of so many refugees into bloodish lands! Language as we know it will be forever altered because of Tarquin's pimpocity!!

[Shadowleaf]

Totally read 500 Dragoons as 500 Dragons. That'd been awesome.

[Jokasti]

Who else thinks there's going to be an Empire of Sweat as well? That would make it Blood, Sweat, and Tears.

[Viera Champion]

I agree Jo. Or maybe mud... dirt... We will rock you?

[CrimsonAngel]

Totally read 500 Dragoons as 500 Dragons. That'd been awesome.

Oh me too... Only I didn't notice it was dragoons until you said that.

He needs to watch how many times he bathes that ape, he's not as young as he used to be. I'm sure Elan could bathe the ape 4 or 5 times a day.

[HZ514]

Jokasti -- There is. Check out the map Roy uses in 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

Great comic as always, Giant!

[RS14]

It looks like the moon is experiencing a lunar eclipse. If it were just a crescent, the obscured region would terminate at opposite ends of the visible disk. Probably this will be a significant moment at the banquet.

[Agi Hammerthief]

re: which side will the dragoons fight for:

mounted infantry / cavalry is not much use in a seige against the city
much more so against the army in a seige around a city

[Aenghus]

Well, Elan's dimness is sort of inevitable as it's for increased drama when he gets the big reveal that his dad is evil when it suits him. Soap opera drama is in their blood!

[The Succubus]

All this ape-uendo and not one joke about "having to spank the monkey"? I really hope I have Tarquin's luck with the ladies in later life :smallwink:

[SaintRidley]

Tarquin is officially a god.

[DreadArchon]

I laughed hard at this strip--but I agree with the previous statement that T may not have dispatched troops at all. "Lawful" is a relative matter, after all, he's not some sort of being of Elemental Law.

[Tobimaro]

i really hope those dragoons are going to help the city of doom :smalleek:

That depends on if the Weepies can make a better offer tonight. :smallwink:

Also, remember that you must make sure to be thorough when doing any bathing of a primate. :smallredface:

[fruityjanitor]

<3 Tarquin's outfit. Have they said what class he is yet? Is he a bard too?

[Beelzebub1111]

Ha Ha! Innuendo!

[Tundar]

This just keeps getting better and better.

And old style flashback to EQ. I hate dragoons!

[hamishspence]

It looks like the moon is experiencing a lunar eclipse. If it were just a crescent, the obscured region would terminate at opposite ends of the visible disk. Probably this will be a significant moment at the banquet.

Lunar eclipses don't normally look like that- however, if the moon is far enough away from the planet, the shadow of the planet will be smaller than the moon, and there could be annular lunar eclipses.

Maybe OOTS-world has a more distant, or larger, moon?

[MonkeyBusiness]

I am Monkey and I approve this comic. :smallwink:

Loved Haley's outfit ... especially the little barette! The colors were awesome too, especially the initial image. Neat-o!

[Lemur Bear]

It seems to be that it is impossible for Rich to drive a joke into the ground. I would have thought that running innuendo would be terrible, but that was done with flair and class.

Also, don't you think it's of tactical use to have waited seven months before sending /500/ dragoons. Wouldn't it be much easier to defeat an enemy and then conquer the city for yourself at that point.

Well, I am off to buy a sash, I suppose. Officially found it more necessary to own than an ascot if I want to seem overtly overdressed.

[Bongos]

So if Empire of Tears are Weepies, what is the derogatory term for the Empire of Blood and the Empire of Sweat? Bleeders?


and oohlala sexy ulterior motives!

[Darthteej]

i didnt get the thing with the dwarf ally, and how Elan got to talk about it. actually, im just confused about the whole last window. someone explain me please? :smallwink:

You're twelve years old and what is this?

[ref]

Awesome. 500 Dragons would have helped more, but oh-well.

Amun-Zora is really cool. Egyptian deity plus Zelda's fish-like people.

[Acero]

I need to get me a sash.

[rewinn]

:haley: "Honey, did you just disclose to your father that we have a secret dwarf ally?"

:elan: "Luckily, the secret was preserved as a side-effect of the Giant's Empowered Mass Innuendo"

[brionl]

So, the Empire of Sweat must be the Shvitzers then?

If the Empire of Blood & the Weepies are actually rivals, then unless the armies are really small, 500 dragoons will probably end up helping the defenders. A smaller force attacking besiegers from outside can have a big effect. 500 probably wouldn't be enough to both take the city, and drive off the Weepies, since I doubt they would just hand it over to their enemies.

Free City generally doesn't mean that there is an unusual degree of personal freedom for the citizens, just that the city itself isn't part of a larger province/kingdom/empire.

Of course, my main bet is that it's just a throwaway line and we'll never hear of either the dragoons or the Free City of Doom again.

[667]

"Free City of Doom" sticks out for me because... Yeah, a city named "Doom" sounds like it's ruled by a (heartless) tyrant.

Really nice strip - and the fast pace of new comics continues! I am content :smallbiggrin:

[the_tick_rules]

Boy, sex is in the air tonight in the strip.

[tassaron]

Error in panel 5: "liason" should be "liaison".

Other than that, awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[binyamin20]

Is it just me or is tarquins hair lighter in this comic?

[hamishspence]

Error in panel 5: "liason" should be "liaison".

Other than that, awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Interestingly, on page 16 of Origin of PCs, it's spelled the exact same way- when Durkon says to the humans that he's been "sent to liason with your leaders"

[DougTheHead]

Jokasti -- There is. Check out the map Roy uses in 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

Great comic as always, Giant!

Wow. Based on that map the Empire of Tears is definitely the stronger force, and so probably getting those dragoons on their side.

EDIT: Also, it's interesting to see that the Elven ambassador has green hair, considering that the scry-ball at the end of 698 is also green.

[Niveus Candidus]

Amun-Zora, a reference to the Egyptian God and the Slavic name for dawn or sunrise?

[Sinfonian]

I liked the costume changes for each of the characters, especially Elan's current outfit being a combination of his current and past wardrobe.

[Knaight]

Wow. Based on that map the Empire of Tears is definitely the stronger force, and so probably getting those dragoons on their side.

EDIT: Also, it's interesting to see that the Elven ambassador has green hair, considering that the scry-ball at the end of 698 is also green.

Eh, its three times the size, but Free City implies a heavily populated area. We know they need help right now, but we don't know that they are significantly out powered.

[Lemur Bear]

I still stand by the whole "wait for the smaller city is be completely out of resources, defeat the bigger enemy and take the small nearly demolished city for yourself" hypothesis I stated a bit ago.

In addendum to that, I would like to propose that maybe T-monkey here decided he wanted to protect the Free City because he's hiding Girard there and his beloved son wants to speak to him. I mean, there has to be a reason why he wouldn't have tried to conquer it for himself, right? Look how big the Empire of Blood is.

[Inhuman Bot]

Wow, that was actually pretty funny. :smalltongue:

[Querzis]

If the Empire of Blood & the Weepies are actually rivals, then unless the armies are really small, 500 dragoons will probably end up helping the defenders. A smaller force attacking besiegers from outside can have a big effect. 500 probably wouldn't be enough to both take the city, and drive off the Weepies, since I doubt they would just hand it over to their enemies.

Azure city was one of the greatest human city in the world.

They had 9 000 troops.

500 dragoons is really not a small force. Yeah sure right now in 2010, we consider 500 people to be a small force but for most of our history, 500 dragoons is an army.

[calar]

Poor Elan, left out in the cold with the double entendres.

[Ancalagon]

I'm not getting what's so funny about the current strip or what it is about. Shouldn't Elan be familiar with innuendos about shutping or at least be familiar with fitting situations? I feel like this entire jokechain about "Elan not getting it" is somehow breaking Elan's character who is known to be stupid and dense but on the other hand has a very keen insight into genre and plot conventions.

No clue what my exact issue it but it simply feels wrong he keeps not getting what his father talks about.

[sihnfahl]

Oh, and in case folks missed panel 9...

Yes, Elan, there are slaves in the Empire.

[Red XIV]

He said "dragoons" not "dragons". Dragoons means mounted infantry or light cavalry.
I thought it meant armored spear-wielders that can jump really high.

Oh wait, wrong kind of dragoons.

[Paperbag4]

What? Are you saying Roy has been dragooned into it?

I see what you did there.:smallamused:

[Lemur Bear]

Oh, and in case folks missed panel 9...

Yes, Elan, there are slaves in the Empire.

I don't remember Elan asking that, but I guess he was unconscious when they went by the protest in 717 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0717.html). I mean, that's pretty evil when you won't even pay your slavedrivers good wages. Using a whip takes training, namely an exotic weapon feat.

[dmuzzy]

I still stand by the whole "wait for the smaller city is be completely out of resources, defeat the bigger enemy and take the small nearly demolished city for yourself" hypothesis I stated a bit ago.


Machiavelli's advice in "The Prince" is when forced to choose between two enemies, ally yourself with the weaker. If the two of you can't defeat the stronger, you would have been conquered eventually, anyway. If you defeat the stronger, you are then able to easily subjugate your weaker ally.

Oh, and awesome comic. :)

[Calmness]

I liked the costume changes for each of the characters, especially Elan's current outfit being a combination of his current and past wardrobe.
Funny. Haley's and the ambassadors' costumes look good. However I felt Elan's didn't fit with the setting. Must be the colors, I suppose.

[Weiser_Cain]

This comic made me sick.

[otakuryoga]

ok, that last panel settles it...i officially ADORE Tarquin now

[Weiser_Cain]

ok, that last panel settles it...i officially ADORE Tarquin now

Because nothing is more endearing than an old man taking advantage of a women whose people he may have just saved?

[AyuVince]

Amun-Zora looks really cool. I hope she becomes relevant :smallsmile:

Why did I first read, "I hope she becomes pregnant"? O_O My mind works in strange ways.

To contribute to the ongoing debate: I believe Tarquin will ultimately help the Doomies, but for a much higher price than just one night with Amun-Zora. He might try to conquer the city himself, or demand an outrageous tribute in return for his assistance.

Or MAYBE... just maybe the Giant is playing with our ripe imaginations and we'll never hear of the conflict between Doom and Tears again.

[Saphy]

Ah. Tarquin is awesomely evil. :D

[hamishspence]

Machiavelli's advice in "The Prince" is when forced to choose between two enemies, ally yourself with the weaker. If the two of you can't defeat the stronger, you would have been conquered eventually, anyway. If you defeat the stronger, you are then able to easily subjugate your weaker ally.


Where exactly is that? There is something about "don't ally with someone vastly more powerful than you unless it's absolutely necessary" but that's not quite the same thing as "when you have a choice between two opposed factions, always ally with the weaker one".

As well as "when identifying which is safest to ally with, the one who is not your friend will request your neutrality, whereas the one who is your friend will request your armed support"- and this overrides "don't ally with really powerful people".

So- if the Empire of Tears is requesting Tarquin's neutrality (we don't know this yet) but the Free City of Doom is requesting Tarquin's armed support (which we do know)- then it would make sense to ally with the Free City of Doom.

[sihnfahl]

I don't remember Elan asking that
Panel Six (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html).

Panel Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html).


So if Empire of Tears are Weepies, what is the derogatory term for the Empire of Blood and the Empire of Sweat? Bleeders?
The Bloodites are bleedies, and the Sweattites are drippies.

And the Doomites are Giries.

[Boogastreehouse]

ok, that last panel settles it...i officially ADORE Tarquin now

Because nothing is more endearing than an old man taking advantage of a women whose people he may have just saved?

Um... Lawful Evil?

He's supposed to do things like this.

It's just like when a couple people got disproportionally upset that Belkar hooked up with Jenny, used her and treated her with such indifference. I always find it interesting where different people will draw the line. Founding a society based on slavery doesn't get a comment, but suggesting to a woman that it might be nice to go to bed together after you've done her a favor, that's what's intolerable.

[sihnfahl]

Founding a society based on slavery doesn't get a comment.
That's because it wasn't founded or based on Slavery. Slavery is a side-effect of the Lawful Evil nature of the Government, not the reason the Government exists.

[Boogastreehouse]

That's because it wasn't founded or based on Slavery. Slavery is a side-effect of the Lawful Evil nature of the Government, not the reason the Government exists.

I'm pretty sure that much like the American South, if you subtracted slavery from their society, then their economy would quickly collapse.

I don't mean that they founded their empire in order to bring about slavery, but rather that slavery is the cornerstone of their economy, and therefor what their industry is based on.

[dmuzzy]

Where exactly is that? There is something about "don't ally with someone vastly more powerful than you unless it's absolutely necessary" but that's not quite the same thing as "when you have a choice between two opposed factions, always ally with the weaker one".

As well as "when identifying which is safest to ally with, the one who is not your friend will request your neutrality, whereas the one who is your friend will request your armed support"- and this overrides "don't ally with really powerful people".

So- if the Empire of Tears is requesting Tarquin's neutrality (we don't know this yet) but the Free City of Doom is requesting Tarquin's armed support (which we do know)- then it would make sense to ally with the Free City of Doom.

Well, I was paraphrasing my memories from my last reading (10 years ago), so you are most likely right. I really should have looked it up before mentioning it. Thanks for the update.

[Feral Warpwolf]

Somehow I hear this Gourntonk-Dude allways talking in a Antique-Prussian accent:


"Vill ze Empress bee joining us zis eveninkh, General?"


:smallbiggrin:

[Prowl]

I'm pretty sure that much like the American South, if you subtracted slavery from their society, then their economy would quickly collapse.

Just FYI that is historically incorrect. The South was never economically dependent on slavery. What collapsed the South's economy was war damage, not emancipation.

[Grimly Feendish]

Don't worry about the Empire of Blood's foreign policy. I'll bet there'll be a change of government very shortly (during the arena games)>

[rewinn]

Just FYI that is historically incorrect. The South was never economically dependent on slavery....

Since I can't really provide evidence to disprove that without veering into inappropriate terror-itory, let's just not discuss this.

[Boogastreehouse]

Just FYI that is historically incorrect. The South was never economically dependent on slavery. What collapsed the South's economy was war damage, not emancipation.

Well, it's collapse due to the former makes it difficult to determine conclusively whether it would or wouldn't have collapsed due to the abrupt removal of the latter.

But I see your point.

[Ancalagon]

That's because it wasn't founded or based on Slavery.

That's your theory. I tend to think it was indeed founded on slavery... seeing how slaves literally build the palace, this seems to be soundly supported...

[sihnfahl]

That's your theory. I tend to think it was indeed founded on slavery... seeing how slaves literally build the palace, this seems to be soundly supported...
That says they utilize slaves. Slavery is part of their economy, but it doesn't say "We conquer this nation to turn everyone into slaves!"

[HempRope]

Sorry to move from slavery back to the discussion of the moon... but I thought it was just a comic-proportioned nod to Ramadan? Especially with the minarets. No one else read that?

[Boogastreehouse]

That's because it wasn't founded or based on Slavery. Slavery is a side-effect of the Lawful Evil nature of the Government, not the reason the Government exists.


That's your theory. I tend to think it was indeed founded on slavery... seeing how slaves literally build the palace, this seems to be soundly supported...


That says they utilize slaves. Slavery is part of their economy, but it doesn't say "We conquer this nation to turn everyone into slaves!"

Again, I think you're getting hung up on semantics here.

You can say that the US is based on capitalism. That doesn't mean that it was literally established to be nothing more than a vehicle through which capitalism could manifest. Rather it means that capitalism is a system upon which much of the United States' economy is based, and that the country is therefore based on this form of economy.

[Blaznak]

Best misunderstood conversation ever! (Grin)

[Gift Jeraff]

At first I thought this was the most boringest comic in a while, then I reread and found the last panel hilarious.

Liking the continuity with #698 and loving Gourntonk.

And this comic got me thinking. We have Vaarsuvius, Inkyrius, Aarindarius, Polozius, and Lirian as the only full/non-Drow elf names. Lirian is definitely female and Aarindarius is referred to as "him" in #634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) (though the fiends also speculate on V's gender (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)); is -ius indicative of a male gender, hermaphrodites, different subraces (V is a high elf), or something else? The conspiracy continues...

[Sutremaine]

Founding a society based on slavery doesn't get a comment, but suggesting to a woman that it might be nice to go to bed together after you've done her a favor, that's what's intolerable.
I don't see why he can't ask the same of her as he would a male ally in the same situation.

'Course, he might be doing that anyway, but between the odds of him being bisexual and the nature of OOTS I'd expect a lampshade-hanging somewhere along the line.

[Santiago]

Tarquin may be a different alignment, but he's still awesome in an Elan sort of way. :)

[Boogastreehouse]

Founding a society based on slavery doesn't get a comment, but suggesting to a woman that it might be nice to go to bed together after you've done her a favor, that's what's intolerable.


I don't see why he can't ask the same of her as he would a male ally in the same situation.

Um... Lawful Evil?

[Celisasu]

Because nothing is more endearing than an old man taking advantage of a women whose people he may have just saved?

Better than that. An old man taking advantage of a woman who's people he just helped conquer without her realizing it. Even better, he didn't have to lie to do it. He just stated a few facts and let her imagination run wild.

[PBoy]

I think there's a mistake in panel 9. Unless I'm mistaken, "Luckily, our benevolent empress has given me full discretion on this manner" should be "Luckily, our benevolent empress has given me full discretion on this matter."

[Dr Bwaa]

Sounds to me like Tarquin is going to join the attackers.

Classic.

Also, for her sake I do hope Tarquin's guys aren't going to join the weepies.

[allenw]

I don't see why he can't ask the same of her as he would a male ally in the same situation.

'Course, he might be doing that anyway, but between the odds of him being bisexual and the nature of OOTS I'd expect a lampshade-hanging somewhere along the line.

We may yet see this occur.
Tarquin could easily go have nearly the same conversation with (speculation) the Ambassador of Tears (who I'd expect to be female as well, but could be male), make the same ambiguous statements, and end up with a double date. My only question then is whether he'll "spelunk" with them in series, in parallel, or as part of a winner-gets-my-real-help competition. :smallamused:

[kladams707]

Haha...multiple entendres!

[SwordsageErrant]

Got a bunch of laughs until noticing the last statement. Why "him?"

*Extremely awkward moment of silent speculation ensues*

[slayerx]

Remember, when dealing with the empire of blood, always send a young single female as your ambassador... one with loose morals would be more ideal. you may also want to give her orders that after securing aid, that she may be allowed some "vacation" time.

[allenw]

Got a bunch of laughs until noticing the last statement. Why "him?"

*Extremely awkward moment of silent speculation ensues*

I had a similar moment of confusion, until I realized that Tarquin was referring to a (non-Dwarfish) part of his anatomy, rather than to the Ambassador.

[elynnia]

I've got a feeling...


The near future...
Elan: That nice lady's city you were defending got razed?
Tarquin: It was a necessary tactical decision, my son - this was the best outcome we could have hoped for.
Elan: No it wasn't! Setting fire to everything never solved anything, and the people you were trying to help all died!
Tarquin: I ever only promised to help my people, some things are inevitable in times of war...
Elan: No, that's not inevitable, that's mean! I can't accept that! I thought my Dad was honourable and respectable! *draws rapier*
DUN DUN DUNNNN!

[Lemur Bear]

Part of me wants that the next time we see Tarquin talking to Elan that we see Amun-Sora with a nice non-enchanted ring on her finger saying hello to her new son-in-law Elan. Not terribly unlikely given Tarquin's track record.

Also, not that it's terribly relevant to this comic, but I am hoping that when Tarquin and the safe members of the OOTS see the gladiatorial fights that Roy jumps out of the pit and goes to kill Tarquin and Elan says, "NO! That's my dad" and then Roy gets a sword through the chest.

[veti]

Azure city was one of the greatest human city in the world.

They had 9 000 troops.

500 dragoons is really not a small force. Yeah sure right now in 2010, we consider 500 people to be a small force but for most of our history, 500 dragoons is an army.

9000 wasn't the whole of Azure City's army, it was just the number (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) they could get inside the city at 12 hours' notice.

500 isn't negligible, but it's not an army either. A Roman legion had approximately ten times that number, and a single legion wasn't considered an army in itself. The famous "300" who fought the Persians at Thermopylae were backed up by approximately 1500 considerably-less-famous non-Spartan Greeks, without whom it would probably have been a very much shorter battle.

Basically, 500 is just enough to be a non-negligible contribution. It may be enough to swing a battle, if neither side has an overwhelming advantage to begin with, but it's certainly not enough to just sweep aside all opposition and conquer everything. Hence the ambassador's reaction, I think - if he'd said "5000 dragoons", she'd know at once that wasn't a relief, it was an invasion force.

[slayerx]

9000 wasn't the whole of Azure City's army, it was just the number (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) they could get inside the city at 12 hours' notice.

500 isn't negligible, but it's not an army either. A Roman legion had approximately ten times that number, and a single legion wasn't considered an army in itself. The famous "300" who fought the Persians at Thermopylae were backed up by approximately 1500 considerably-less-famous non-Spartan Greeks, without whom it would probably have been a very much shorter battle.

Basically, 500 is just enough to be a non-negligible contribution. It may be enough to swing a battle, if neither side has an overwhelming advantage to begin with, but it's certainly not enough to just sweep aside all opposition and conquer everything. Hence the ambassador's reaction, I think - if he'd said "5000 dragoons", she'd know at once that wasn't a relief, it was an invasion force.

Well one problem is that you are making a comparison with the roman empire, which was on of the largest empires in the ancient world; ofcourse they would be able to having forces numbering deep into the thousands. The empire of tears, may not have quite as large a force; especially when you consider the fact that these western countries have a tendency of collapsing in just a few years (one possibility is that they loose a good portion of their army in the inital conquest but then do not have enough time to rebuild it before being invaded)...

Also you have to question the quality of the troops... bringing up 300 again, i believe another contributing factor to the how long the spartan's lasted against such a huge overwhelming force was that the spartans were better trained and better armed where as the persians were little more than peasants. This is magnified in the OotS universe where a few class levels can make a huge difference in how much damage a solider can do on the battlefield.

What i think is notable is that he said "dragoons" as opposed to "troops/soldiers"... at the very least this would denote that these are not ordinary reinforcements he's sending. granted we don't know what kind of interpretation the giant is using when he uses the term "dragoons"... but even if they were say calvery, then 500 of them could quite valuable in fighting an offensive force, depending on the kind of troops and leadership the empire of tears has.... really when it comes down to it, Tarquin is sending a force that is meant to help defend and push back the invaders, not necessarily pull an offensive against the invaders themselves.

[veti]

Well one problem is that you are making a comparison with the roman empire, which was on of the largest empires in the ancient world; ofcourse they would be able to having forces numbering deep into the thousands. The empire of tears, may not have quite as large a force; especially when you consider the fact that these western countries have a tendency of collapsing in just a few years (one possibility is that they loose a good portion of their army in the inital conquest but then do not have enough time to rebuild it before being invaded)...

The Romans are just one example, I picked them because they're better understood and documented than most ancient civilisations. But honestly, everyone in Roman-era Europe was fielding armies well into the thousands.

It's true that in medieval times, armies got considerably smaller. But even at such relatively minor affairs as the battles of Stamford Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stamford_Bridge), Lewes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lewes), Montaperti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Montaperti), Sagrajas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_az-Zallaqah), 500 men - even on horseback - wouldn't have been an overwhelming force.

Noticeable, yes. A welcome reinforcement to whichever side they adopted. But not "an army" capable of sweeping both sides off the field.


Also you have to question the quality of the troops... bringing up 300 again, i believe another contributing factor to the how long the spartan's lasted against such a huge overwhelming force was that the spartans were better trained and better armed where as the persians were little more than peasants.

The Spartans certainly had a good few levels on the Persians, but please don't fall for the Spartan propaganda that says the 300 held the pass on their own. They didn't - there were also (a number variably estimated, but probably in the region of 3000) other Greeks who stayed to support them.

Also, even the Spartans acknowledge that the 300, however indomitable they might have been, did actually get killed in the end...

[Scarlet Knight]

Because nothing is more endearing than an old man taking advantage of a women whose people he may have just saved?

If she was a good diplomat , she should have already implied the "I'll trade sex for troops" card. I believe that sex is a long standing weapon in the Ambassador arsenal, right along with other bribes...

[slayerx]

The Spartans certainly had a good few levels on the Persians, but please don't fall for the Spartan propaganda that says the 300 held the pass on their own. They didn't - there were also (a number variably estimated, but probably in the region of 3000) other Greeks who stayed to support them.


Which still doesn't mean much when you consider that the persians numbered over 80,000 to the hundreds of thousands. Combining their use of terran with the superior arms and training, the greeks overall killed about 10 men for every one they lost until they were betrayed

[Seerow]

Sounds to me like Tarquin is going to join the attackers.

This was pretty much my first thought reading the comic too.

[GSFB]

Considering an entire legion of the Empire's best troops were defeated by a small raiding party and a few dozen teddy bears, I think it is safe to say that no arbitrary number of fighting forces of any name or species is enough to alter the balance of power plot.

[Asthix]

Also, 742's title is 'Monkey Do'

It works on so many levels!

[BriarHobbit]

My best guess is that the dragoons will be fighting the Weepies. If the Weepies are winning against Doom and it appears that they are, the last minute assistance is not going to get much appreciation. It would be like Italy's late declaration of war against France in WWII.

The "Weepies" is a great nick name.

[Undead Prince]

Where exactly is that? There is something about "don't ally with someone vastly more powerful than you unless it's absolutely necessary" but that's not quite the same thing as "when you have a choice between two opposed factions, always ally with the weaker one".

As well as "when identifying which is safest to ally with, the one who is not your friend will request your neutrality, whereas the one who is your friend will request your armed support"- and this overrides "don't ally with really powerful people".

So- if the Empire of Tears is requesting Tarquin's neutrality (we don't know this yet) but the Free City of Doom is requesting Tarquin's armed support (which we do know)- then it would make sense to ally with the Free City of Doom.


Okay, quoting time:


In the second case, when those who fight are of such a character that you have no anxiety as to who may conquer, so much the more is it greater prudence to be allied, because you assist at the destruction of one by the aid of another who, if he had been wise, would have saved him; and conquering, as it is impossible that he should not with your assistance, he remains at your discretion. And here it is to be noted that a prince ought to take care never to make an alliance with one more powerful than himself for the purpose of attacking others, unless necessity compels him, as is said above; because if he conquers you are at his discretion, and princes ought to avoid as much as possible being at the discretion of any one. The Venetians joined with France against the Duke of Milan, and this alliance, which caused their ruin, could have been avoided.

Chapter XXI (http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince21.htm)

Again, the prince who holds a country differing in the above respects ought to make himself the head and defender of his powerful neighbours, and to weaken the more powerful amongst them, taking care that no foreigner as powerful as himself shall, by any accident, get a footing there...

Chapter III (http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince03.htm)

A prince is also respected when he is either a true friend or a downright enemy, that to say, when, without any reservation, he declares himself in favour of one party against the other; which course will always be more advantageous than standing neutral; because if two of your powerful neighbours come to blows, they are of such a character that, if one of them conquers, you have either to fear him or not. In either case it will always be more advantageous for you to declare yourself and to make war strenuously; because, in the first case, if you do not declare yourself, you will invariably fall a prey to the conqueror, to the pleasure and satisfaction of him who has been conquered, and you will have no reasons to offer, nor anything to protect or to shelter you. Because he who conquers does not want doubtful friends who will not aid him in the time of trial; and he who loses will not harbour you because you did not willingly, sword in hand, court his fate.

Chapter XXI (http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince21.htm)



This is the basic idea behind "Divide and Conquer". And considering the nature of the Southern Continent lands, as well as the self-proclaimed jihad of the "Weepies" against all other nations, Tarquin really must intervene to avoid the conquest of FCoD by EoT (assuming that EoT is the stronger side, which it seems to be, having been on offensive for so long). Naturally, he waited long enough for both sides to be weakened by the protracted siege.

So far Tarquin seems to be following Machiavelli to the letter (not keeping neutral, boldly committing his forces to aid the weaker side, weakening his stronger neighbour, and leaving his weaker neighbour at his discretion).

Considering that we know Tarquin to be Lawful Evil, it's unlikely that his statement to Amun-Zora is merely a bluff to gain her sexual favor. That would have been an extremely Chaotic thing to do, and would seriously undermine Tarquin's credibility as a statesman (in front of all the foreign Ambassadors, no less). It's more likely that Tarquin used this occasion to publicly announce the intervention which he naturally kept secret until the very last moment (strategic advantage), and do so with the panache we have come to know him for.

Also, note that there's no Ambassador of the EoT in sight, despite the fact that their enemy has been courting the EoB for 7 months by now. Apparently they have indeed declared war on everybody else, and cut diplomatic relations. Aiding them would have been pointless and self-defeating for Tarquin.

Finally, FCoD seems to be the perfect ally: too well-defended to be easily taken (withstood 7 months of siege from a neighbouring Empire), but too short-handed to mount any sort of counterattack, and owning barely any land. It could make a great base for Tarquin to launch an incursion into the EoT.

Of course, after breaking the siege, Tarquin's forces will probably have the opportunity to enter FCoD as allies and overtake it from within. Would also make for excellent conversation with Amun-Zora the next day (and may be another piece of evidence towards Tarquin's evilness for Elan).

[Undead Prince]

Because nothing is more endearing than an old man taking advantage of a women whose people he may have just saved?

Wait.... are you being serious?

1) If the "old man" (not so old, it appears) really saved the woman's people, wouldn't it be proper for her to offer him anything in her power as a reward? A little nookie seems like a small price to pay for such a great service.

2) Doesn't seem to be any "advantage taking" going on. Tarquin is being very gentlemanly, and not even asking for anything outright. The Ambassador by definition is a woman highly experienced in inter-personal relationships - I'm sure she could find a way to politely decline the implied offer if she wanted. Also, everything points towards T having loads of charisma, so it would really be good for her as well.

[hamishspence]

While "weaken the more powerful among your neighbours" is mentioned, when you have two neighbours, both much weaker than you, there's nothing explicitly stating you should always ally with the weaker one.

I figure the bit about "the one who is your friend will request your armed support" may override "weaken your most powerful neighbours".

That said, since the Free City of Doom is losing, the fact that they're requesting armed support synergizes well with "weaken your most powerful neighbours"

Also- there are strong reasons not to take the opportunity to conquer the Free City once the Empire of Tears has been defeated.

Specifically- that Free Cities are a massive pain to hold- and The Prince recommends destroying the city and dispersing the inhabitants, or living there permanently, if a Free City absolutely has to be conquered.

Given how much trouble this is, it may make sense, from a Machiavellian point of view, for Tarquin not to turn on the Free City and conquer it, but to leave it free and grateful.

[Weiser_Cain]

Wait.... are you being serious?

1) If the "old man" (not so old, it appears) really saved the woman's people, wouldn't it be proper for her to offer him anything in her power as a reward? A little nookie seems like a small price to pay for such a great service.

2) Doesn't seem to be any "advantage taking" going on. Tarquin is being very gentlemanly, and not even asking for anything outright. The Ambassador by definition is a woman highly experienced in inter-personal relationships - I'm sure she could find a way to politely decline the implied offer if she wanted. Also, everything points towards T having loads of charisma, so it would really be good for her as well.
This is your world.
Woman: Oh superman you saved my baby...
Suoerman: *just stands there with a creepy smile and won't put the kid down*

[Pandabear]

How I'd wish that washing the monkey behind the ears was an allusion to taking the human digestive system as two-way traffic.. :smallbiggrin:

[Undead Prince]

How I'd wish that washing the monkey behind the ears was an allusion to taking the human digestive system as two-way traffic.. :smallbiggrin:

Wha...? 0_o

OMG you made me think of the Human Centipede... D:

[GolemsVoice]

This is your world.
Woman: Oh superman you saved my baby...
Suoerman: *just stands there with a creepy smile and won't put the kid down*

People complaining about evil people doing evil things? Oh noes!

Just for the record: No matter how nice Tarquin may seem, he is still a ruthless bastard, just of the charming sort. So it's fully in character for him to do so. Is it nice? No. Should we chose Tarquin as our role model? No. Can we love him, as a fictional being doing things that harm no living person, while still knowing that what he does is not right? Yes.

Besides, I guess that's just how evil people make diplomacy. Amun-Zora would probably have used him just the same, were the roles switched, and this is probably just what she has expected, and may even be the reason why they sent a femal ambassador. It's not pretty, but it works.

[Undead Prince]

when you have two neighbours, both much weaker than you

If both EoT and FCoD were much weaker than EoB, wouldn't Tarquin have conquered them both already? And why would he need to wait 7 months before entering the conflict?

Also, even though EoT seem to be quite reckless with their declaration of war on all the other nations, it would have been comically pathetic if they declared such universal war while at the same time being extremely weak. But they do manage to hold a lot of ground (judging by the map, they've got the second-largest empire on the continent this side of Goaway Mountains) AND wage a war on a neighbour for 7 months. Large territory, prominent military capacity, and aggressive rhethoric all point towards EoT being a serious pretender to domination, and the likeliest challenger to EoB's supremacy.



there's nothing explicitly stating you should always ally with the weaker one.

OFC, Machiavelli recognised various cases and exceptions. But this does seem to be the general principle. And it makes perfect sense.


I figure the bit about "the one who is your friend will request your armed support" may override "weaken your most powerful neighbours".

Or vice versa. It's probably dependent on a lot of secondary factors.


That said, since the Free City of Doom is losing, the fact that they're requesting armed support synergizes well with "weaken your most powerful neighbours"

Yep, so it seems the obvious choice would be to help them against the dangerous and ambitious EoT.


Also- there are strong reasons not to take the opportunity to conquer the Free City once the Empire of Tears has been defeated.

Specifically- that Free Cities are a massive pain to hold- and The Prince recommends destroying the city and dispersing the inhabitants, or living there permanently, if a Free City absolutely has to be conquered.

Given how much trouble this is, it may make sense, from a Machiavellian point of view, for Tarquin not to turn on the Free City and conquer it, but to leave it free and grateful.

True, but there are many ways of gaining domination. Tarquin may offer FCoD the status of a protectorate - limited economic and political autonomy in exchange for EoB military presence - and use it as a base of operations against EoT. Then, after EoT is subjugated and things settle down, FCoD may be formally annexed into EoB. And for all we know, the people of FCoD may welcome this development - after all, being part of the strongest empire will provide a measure of stability and security, which would be rare commodities indeed in these turbulent lands.

[hamishspence]

True, but there are many ways of gaining domination. Tarquin may offer FCoD the status of a protectorate - limited economic and political autonomy in exchange for EoB military presence - and use it as a base of operations against EoT. Then, after EoT is subjugated and things settle down, FCoD may be formally annexed into EoB. And for all we know, the people of FCoD may welcome this development - after all, being part of the strongest empire will provide a measure of stability and security, which would be rare commodities indeed in these turbulent lands.

Yup- it's outright conquest that makes Free Cities irate and impossible to keep subjugated- the slow and careful way, might work without stirring the populace into rebellion.

[Nilan8888]

Basically, 500 is just enough to be a non-negligible contribution. It may be enough to swing a battle, if neither side has an overwhelming advantage to begin with, but it's certainly not enough to just sweep aside all opposition and conquer everything. Hence the ambassador's reaction, I think - if he'd said "5000 dragoons", she'd know at once that wasn't a relief, it was an invasion force.

I had presumed that he's committing his troops in a fashion because, like the IFCC, he wan'ts NEITHER side to win, and he's giving the city just enough troops to keep the seige going. So it won't fall and they'll continue for another 7 or so months.

[Undead Prince]

This is your world.
Woman: Oh superman you saved my baby...
Suoerman: *just stands there with a creepy smile and won't put the kid down*

I see you've got nothing to say regarding anything I said.

Your parallel with Superman is entirely moot, because he's... well, SUPERman. A force of good and justice greater than any human. You might call him a deity, for all practical purposes. And Tarquin is very much a human, and an evil one at that.

But, if we ground your example in reality: say, a guy saves a woman's baby from a fire by going beyond his duty and risking his life. If the woman then asks whether there was anything she could do for him in return, and he'd say "well, I'd love to have dinner with you some day" - would you have also attacked that as inappropriate behaviour?

Or for instance, the famous sailor kissing nurse photo - I understand there was some sort of celebration of that in NYC to mark the end of WWII - wasn't the warm welcome the men who fought in the War received from the women when they got home at least partially stemming from the fact that these men have done a great service for their country, and thus deserved some sort of reward?

I think this "battle of the sexes" thing is really going too far and infringing upon rationality and common sense.

[Undead Prince]

I had presumed that he's committing his troops in a fashion because, like the IFCC, he wan'ts NEITHER side to win, and he's giving the city just enough troops to keep the seige going. So it won't fall and they'll continue for another 7 or so months.

Just protracting the siege would be kinda pointless from the view of story narrative. I doubt Rich will throw away such an excellent setup for characterization and plot development in favor of a "blah" moment.

No, more likely this will be used as a colorful example of EoB (and Tarquin specifically) external politics, which would involve some actual resolution of the matter.

[Nilan8888]

Just for the record: No matter how nice Tarquin may seem, he is still a ruthless bastard, just of the charming sort. So it's fully in character for him to do so. Is it nice? No. Should we chose Tarquin as our role model? No. Can we love him, as a fictional being doing things that harm no living person, while still knowing that what he does is not right? Yes.

Seconded.

Just in case there is any confusion, opinions on fictional works have NO bearing on moral stances in reality. NONE.




Just protracting the siege would be kinda pointless from the view of story narrative. I doubt Rich will throw away such an excellent setup for characterization and plot development in favor of a "blah" moment.

No, more likely this will be used as a colorful example of EoB (and Tarquin specifically) external politics, which would involve some actual resolution of the matter.

Since there's been no indication that the story narrative will head in that direction I figure it's totally possible.

In other words, if Tarquins actions are meant to continue the seige indefinately or offer a decisive action is probably more dependant on if the OOTS will be headed there anytime soon. Otherwise it's just an example to hint at Tarquin's character rather than actual plot development (since the plot may not be headed there; if not, it's just something else that's going on).

[BillyJimBoBob]

Ah, see this is the problem with extended innuendo. :smalltongue:Not extended innuendo, but reverse euphemisms (http://xkcd.com/168/)!

"Wait - so you're saying that you're going back to your quarters to have a meeting with your secret dwarf ally?"

[Naira]

Weiser_Cain, forgive me if I'm wrong but maybe you had no opportunity to read at least SRD's section explaining alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment)? Tarquin seems to act in perfect accordance to Evil one.
I mean, this is not just a matter of slavery flourishing throughout the empire - gladiatorial fights where "prisoners will die", Tarquin quite possibly knowing by now Roy is Elan's friend and ally but still planning to put him out of his lawful good misery in front of audience thirsting for blood of mostly innocent people, etc.


Have anyone thought Tarquin may not care at all about politics, conquests and strengthening of empire? He is in the business of establishing new borders for fifteen years and it seems he is happy with everything. Maybe he simply realised it is time to start new iteration of chaos and bloodshed? Running the empire is not that easy, all the malcontents protesting against slavery (or low wages, in case of slave drivers) and such.

[Kish]

Tarquin quite possibly knowing by now Roy is Elan's friend and ally but still planning to put him out of his lawful good misery in front of audience thirsting for blood of mostly innocent people, etc.
While Tarquin is certainly evil, I'm blinking at this. How would Tarquin know who "Roy" is, what "Roy's" relationship to Elan is, "Roy's" alignment, or who specifically has been brought into the gladiatorial arena lately?

[Nilan8888]

wasn't the warm welcome the men who fought in (War X) received from the women when they got home at least partially stemming from the fact that these men have done a great service for their country, and thus deserved some sort of reward?

In all fairness to the original poster -- although I find the analogy of superman to be misguided -- anyone fighting in any war to defend a nation... let's call such a nation the 'Free City of Doom' for a more appropriate example... already has thier reward: thier city is still free.

Don't get me wrong, warm welcomes home are great for someone fighting a conflict. They certainly beat "Dear John" letters. But really, war should be a business about rewarding anyone for anything. Especially when you don't know what the person in question has precisely 'done' to deserve your reward or not.

Sometimes -- and this is just me talking my opinion here -- I often wonder if part of the cycle of war itself is these imagined rewards of which we speak. In which case isn't it fair to say it's a contributing factor to the whole wretched business? The other side's got it's own promised rewards, after all, which are pretty much exactly the same.



While Tarquin is certainly evil, I'm blinking at this. How would Tarquin know who "Roy" is, what "Roy's" relationship to Elan is, "Roy's" alignment, or who specifically has been brought into the gladiatorial arena lately?

Some of this is possible, Kish: Tarquin specifically knows Gannji's been taken to his arena, so it stands to reason Tarquin may know a certain amount about the incident that landed Gannji there. In which case connecting Roy and Belkar (the only people in the inn's brawl who did not have proper papers) to Elan could be a decent guess, though still a guess.

I don't know about Tarquin being eagre to end someone's "lawful good misery" or anything -- that's something of a stretch. As is his speculating too much on Roy's relationship to Elan or even Roy's name (although figuring he's Elan's Friend/ally might not be too far a throw). But he could know at this point that people are being brought into the arena who have a high chance of knowing his son in some way.

[Kewangji]

Remember, when dealing with the empire of blood, always send a young single female as your ambassador... one with loose morals would be more ideal. you may also want to give her orders that after securing aid, that she may be allowed some "vacation" time.

Loose morals? What?

[Naira]

*sigh* I didn't stated Tarquin knows Roy's alignment. And, please, disregard the "misery" part, it was kind of a humorous reference to Roy periodically suffering for his good deeds and intentions. And a wrong thing to write, it seems.

Indeed, Nilan8888 explained almost everything. One thing to add: what are the odds some high level characters asking Gannji about location of their friends are related to some other high level characters, one of them being Elan, recently delivered by Gannji to the palace?
And as for the list of people who will fight in the arena - I guess the man who in fact runs this empire is able to influence such list's contents.

[Kish]

Indeed, Nilan8888 explained almost everything.

All except why you're making these assumptions.


And as for the list of people who will fight in the arena - I guess the man who in fact runs this empire is able to influence such list's contents.
"Able to influence such lists' contents"=/="Deliberately personally responsible for the presence on that list of someone who, as far as all the evidence we currently have goes, he doesn't know from Xykon."

[Undead Prince]

Have anyone thought Tarquin may not care at all about politics, conquests and strengthening of empire? He is in the business of establishing new borders for fifteen years and it seems he is happy with everything. Maybe he simply realised it is time to start new iteration of chaos and bloodshed? Running the empire is not that easy, all the malcontents protesting against slavery (or low wages, in case of slave drivers) and such.

Well, we specifically know Tarquin to be of lawful evil alignment, and as such spreading chaos is not his cup of tea.

It really does seem that he's happy having comfortably settled down with his own evil empire to run by proxy. But the conflict between FCoT and EoT provides an excellent opportunity to gain more power (which his evil part would crave) while observing the diplomatic formalities (lawful part).

[Grimly Feendish]

This thing with the City of Doom and the Empire of Tears could be just background and have no relevance to the story arc. It has been stated in previous strips that, on this continent rulers are constantly being replaced and small scale warfare is endemic. That’s why Tarquin finds it safer to keep moving rather than reign himself. Alright, somewhat like the time and place Machiavelli was writing in (and Sun Tzu come to that), but this may not impinge on the OOTS in any significant way. The elvish ambassador could be more important (he recognises V with dire consequences or something like that).
Anyway my money is still on Tarquin looking for a new job soon because the Order is going to kill the Empress in the arena.

[Undead Prince]

anyone fighting in any war to defend a nation... let's call such a nation the 'Free City of Doom' for a more appropriate example... already has thier reward: thier city is still free.

Okay. So the veterans shouldn't receive decorations for valorous service, and pensions to compensate for the hardships they endured and the time they lost at the front? Not to mention possible injuries, both physical and mental?

Victory is its own reward, you say? Huh.


Don't get me wrong, warm welcomes home are great for someone fighting a conflict. They certainly beat "Dear John" letters. But really, war should be a business about rewarding anyone for anything. Especially when you don't know what the person in question has precisely 'done' to deserve your reward or not.

Let's not get too serious or involved here, but honestly, coming from a nation that endured some quite vicious conflicts in recent history, I have to say that there is no doubt that the mere fact of having fought in such a conflict is reason enough for respect and support both from the State and individual citizens. As to exact deeds, the person's decorations usually provide a clue.


Sometimes -- and this is just me talking my opinion here -- I often wonder if part of the cycle of war itself is these imagined rewards of which we speak. In which case isn't it fair to say it's a contributing factor to the whole wretched business? The other side's got it's own promised rewards, after all, which are pretty much exactly the same.

Unfortunately, apart from these "imagined" rewards there are very real rewards from winning a war. And they are the ones feeding the cycle of war. The paltry comforts offered by the population to the common soldiers mostly just serve to take the edge from the suffering - a noble and humane mission. Take it away, and wars would still be fought for loot, resources, pride, out of fear and hatred - but without the consolation for the traumatized. That would worsen the world, not improve it.

Sorry for getting all philosophical, this really has little bearing to the OP's notion.

[Undead Prince]

Anyway my money is still on Tarquin looking for a new job soon because the Order is going to kill the Empress in the arena.

Wow, that's an interesting thought - but what makes you think the Empress will fight in the arena? Insofar it seems Tarquin tries to keep her indoors as much as possible. She could certainly be excited by the bloodshed and perform any number of stupid things (like eating some persons of diplomatic importance). Also, Tarquin seems intelligent enough to deduce Roy and Belkar's levels from their arena performance, and therefore would take steps to prevent such a confrontation if they would pose any risk to the Empress' well-being.

[Asthix]

Victory is its own reward, you say? Huh.


What? No exp?? :smallmad:

[Nilan8888]

Okay. So the veterans shouldn't receive ... pensions to compensate for the hardships they endured and the time they lost at the front? Not to mention possible injuries, both physical and mental?

Victory is its own reward, you say? Huh.

No, becuase that is much closer to payment by the state for services rendered (pensions, not the medals). Keeping again to OOTS examples, if someone fights for FCoD and loses a limb, they should be without question compensated in thier lifetime for losing that limb.

That if anything will make war LESS likely by those governing the state: if legacy costs like that are to be incurred, those running the government might be less likely to leap into an ill-advised conflict. Although that would be far from the only precaution needed.



Let's not get too serious or involved here, but honestly, coming from a nation that endured some quite vicious conflicts in recent history, I have to say that there is no doubt that the mere fact of having fought in such a conflict is reason enough for respect and support both from the State and individual citizens. As to exact deeds, the person's decorations usually provide a clue.

I would disagree that decorations do in fact provide a clue. As for respect, of course: after all, all citizens deserve respect. I am in no way suggesting veterans of combat be denigrated.

Again using the fictional example, the veterans of this current conflict when it is over should not be looked down on in any way. But I think it bears repeating that war should not be glamorized: and if characters were to 'honor' these vetrans they may, in the long term, be glorifying the very conflict they might profess not to glorify.

Many might be the veteran that will insist, coming back to EoB or FCoD, that they are "not heroes" for what they did, and were just donig thier job. I merely suggest they be repaid in full for everything they have done, and then taken at thier word.

In other words, remember the conflict in order not to repeat it, but otherwise not dwell on it.



Unfortunately, apart from these "imagined" rewards there are very real rewards from winning a war. And they are the ones feeding the cycle of war. The paltry comforts offered by the population to the common soldiers mostly just serve to take the edge from the suffering - a noble and humane mission. Take it away, and wars would still be fought for loot, resources, pride, out of fear and hatred - but without the consolation for the traumatized. That would worsen the world, not improve it.

Sorry for getting all philosophical, this really has little bearing to the OP's notion.

My point is not to do so much with the veterans -- in fact if the veterans were to recieve all due to them and more with no one the wiser that they had recieved it, then by all means. My point is more to the civilian population doing the rewarding that in itself might make them more likely to support another war in the future, whatever its basis.

Although the EoB is evil, the efforts to placate its populace through gladiators seem to at least suggest there is a need for Tarquin et all to keep them happy and under control. Imagine then, that the people of a given nation simply refused to go to war becuase they did not see it as an exercise in which honor and sacrifice truly meant anything, and only pointless death would be the result.

Given the required amount of resistance, that would stop Tarquin's war in its tracks.

[Grimly Feendish]

Wow, that's an interesting thought - but what makes you think the Empress will fight in the arena? Insofar it seems Tarquin tries to keep her indoors as much as possible. She could certainly be excited by the bloodshed and perform any number of stupid things (like eating some persons of diplomatic importance). Also, Tarquin seems intelligent enough to deduce Roy and Belkar's levels from their arena performance, and therefore would take steps to prevent such a confrontation if they would pose any risk to the Empress' well-being.

I’m partly following the Gladiator movie trope in which the Emperor Commodus was killed by Maximus in the arena. But also I think Roy and Belkar will wipe the floor with all comers particularly if they get to use their own weapons. You are right, I am assuming the Empress will be there, but if she is she’ll probably get angry enough to go for them. Then the rest of the Order will join the fight. I particularly hope to see Elan getting behind the Empress with his rapier and really “get up her business”.
Just daydreams probably.

[sihnfahl]

Although the EoB is evil, the efforts to placate its populace through gladiators seem to at least suggest there is a need for Tarquin et all to keep them happy and under control.
Ah, but there's something else to consider. These are convict gladiators. People who the justice system determined to be guilty of crimes against the State and executed in front of everyone ... with bets!

"Fight the System, Fight in the Arena."

And it's a pretty safe bet that there are a lot of swords-for-hire on the Continent. They'll hire up in a successful army for a steady paycheck.

[Nilan8888]

And it's a pretty safe bet that there are a lot of swords-for-hire on the Continent. They'll hire up in a successful army for a steady paycheck.

I'm not 100% clear on what you're suggesting here. You mean Tarquin could use mercenaries in this conflict instead of citizens? Sure. But then, so could the FCoD. And if Tarquin did hire those mercs I think we might be in a different frame of conversation anyway. At that point the EoB citizens would have done everything they can to avoid war short of overthrowing thier government -- which they could also do, of course.

And what's more, Tarquin could hire the mercenaries in secret, in which case nobody would really know what was going on until it happened anyway. I'm not sure there's anything anyone could do to prevent that save the aforementioned overthrow (which would be presumedly for other reasons since they wouldn't know about what Tarquin was doing behind the scenes anyway).

[pendell]

Great strip! Even if I didn't understand half the innuendos. No, don't bother to explain, I am content in my ignorance :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Undead Prince]

This thing with the City of Doom and the Empire of Tears could be just background and have no relevance to the story arc.

Tarquin and Lizard Priest Watsisname have been set up as fairly prominent characters. Since this is an entire arc we're talking about, it seems likely their characters, and even the Empress, will receive considerable attention and their sub-plotlines will be somehow resolved (no doubt closely tied with the adventures of our protagonists). The conflict between FCoD and EoT, into which the EoB now apparently enters, would be the perfect backdrop for their character development. It doesn't necessary mean we'll see the conflict itself, but the decisions and their consequences will probably be made apparent.

Personally, I think this will go even further, with Tarquin maybe lending aid to Elan against Xykon's world domination/destruction effort. That would certainly justify all the characterisation Mr T is receiving.

[sihnfahl]

You mean Tarquin could use mercenaries in this conflict instead of citizens?
No, offer the mercs citizenship and pay in return for serving in the army and conquering new land.

"Service equals citizenship!"

Oh, and the EOB citizens? All they have to do is work within the lines of a LE Government and they have it made. Not only is the EOB lasting, it's expanding, something that's apparently rare on the Continent.

"Better to live with a leash than die in the wastes."

[Undead Prince]

But I think it bears repeating that war should not be glamorized: and if characters were to 'honor' these vetrans they may, in the long term, be glorifying the very conflict they might profess not to glorify.

I understand you make no distinction between just and unjust wars? Because to me it seems that whereas wars of aggression and conquest should definitely not be glamorised (and in fact should be remembered with shame and regret), righteous wars for the defense of one's nation deserve every honor and should be remembered with pride.


My point is more to the civilian population doing the rewarding that in itself might make them more likely to support another war in the future, whatever its basis.

Being ready to wage a defensive war is an element of a nation's self-preservation. Otherwise it may be destroyed and its people annihilated or subjugated. This has been true since the dawn of time, and remains true even in present, relatively peaceful, time (to say nothing of the future). Like Napoleon said, "who doesn't want to feed his own army, will feed a foreign one".

We can only hope that in the future the tensions will wind down, and the world will become so peaceful we can decry any sort of war altogether. But history tends to repeat itself; we've already had "peace for all time", "war to end all wars" and other such notions that were brutally proven wrong by the wheel of time. With this regard, a certain fighting spirit, which includes good treatment of veterans, is essential for a nation.


Although the EoB is evil, the efforts to placate its populace through gladiators seem to at least suggest there is a need for Tarquin et all to keep them happy and under control. Imagine then, that the people of a given nation simply refused to go to war becuase they did not see it as an exercise in which honor and sacrifice truly meant anything, and only pointless death would be the result.

If only all nations (and all people) would be like that. But it's like Prisoner's Dilemma: as long as there are rats willing to gain advantage at the cost of others, people will have to be on their guard lest they find themselves on the receiving end of the stick. Happily, life provides more choices than the Prisoner's Dilemma, e.g. the readiness of a nation to repel any external attack, but without going into conquests itself.

A similar example would be crime and punishment. Some forms of punishment are really harsh, but they are still necessary in order to prevent proliferation of crime, which would be worse for society as a whole.

Unfortunately, humanity has not yet achieved (and will not, in the foreseeable future, achieve) a state when wars and punishments would be unnecessary and obsolete. The word "utopia" comes to mind.

[AtopTheMountain]

I particularly hope to see Elan getting behind the Empress with his rapier and really “get up her business”.

Is that a euphemism? :smallamused: :smallwink:

[Undead Prince]

No, offer the mercs citizenship and pay in return for serving in the army and conquering new land.

Mercs are notoriously unreliable. They'd be just as likely to sell their services to the enemy should a higher price be offered (or even a better promise is made).

Better integrate these people into the society to make them part of the nation instead of sellswords. You can start by offering them noble titles and land instead of money - that tends to tie people down.


Oh, and the EOB citizens? All they have to do is work within the lines of a LE Government and they have it made.

Paving the road to decadence and eventual collapse. That's what happened to the Romans and the Byzanthines, y'know - too much reliance on foreign mercenaries while the core nation was mired in petty squabbles and moral decay.

[Undead Prince]

I’m partly following the Gladiator movie trope in which the Emperor Commodus was killed by Maximus in the arena. But also I think Roy and Belkar will wipe the floor with all comers particularly if they get to use their own weapons. You are right, I am assuming the Empress will be there, but if she is she’ll probably get angry enough to go for them. Then the rest of the Order will join the fight. I particularly hope to see Elan getting behind the Empress with his rapier and really “get up her business”.
Just daydreams probably.

I'm sure the Empress will be resolved somehow (and more likely than not, in an unfavourable way). But killing her by the hands of OoTS so soon doesn't seem to fall within the narrative too well. Although, of course, with Rich everything's possible.

[sihnfahl]

Better integrate these people into the society to make them part of the nation instead of sellswords. You can start by offering them noble titles and land instead of money - that tends to tie people down.
Until all the nobles decide that their hold on land and their loyalty to themselves is better, and they break off to form their own nation...

[Nilan8888]

I understand you make no distinction between just and unjust wars? Because to me it seems that whereas wars of aggression and conquest should definitely not be glamorised (and in fact should be remembered with shame and regret), righteous wars for the defense of one's nation deserve every honor and should be remembered with pride.

In my view, the contrast is not between a just and unjust war: it is between what is necessary and what is not.

If you are a citizen of FCoD, certainly it's damn straight your war is necessary: I am not arguing for 100% pacificism -- since 100% pacificism translates to a death just as pointless than if you had fought a pointless war. This is, maybe, the mistake Celia makes. Although she establishes that maybe the OOTS could be looking a lot harder for peaceful solutions.

At any rate, I think it's important to make term it as necessary rather than 'just'. In the greater sense, no war is 'just' any more than an operation that saves your life is a just operation or killing a wolf that's wandered into your party's camp is a 'just' killing. It's necessary, and that is the extent to which, I think, it should be treated.



Being ready to wage a defensive war is an element of a nation's self-preservation. Otherwise it may be destroyed and its people annihilated or subjugated. This has been true since the dawn of time, and remains true even in present, relatively peaceful, time (to say nothing of the future). Like Napoleon said, "who doesn't want to feed his own army, will feed a foreign one".

I'd rather not get into RL exmples, or obfuscate them if unavoidable. However suffice it to say this is only true in terms of war and that, again, I am not arguing for pure pacifism. And also that the ability to wage a defensive war has nothing to do with how the participants of that war are honored afterward.



We can only hope that in the future the tensions will wind down, and the world will become so peaceful we can decry any sort of war altogether. But history tends to repeat itself; we've already had "peace for all time", "war to end all wars" and other such notions that were brutally proven wrong by the wheel of time. With this regard, a certain fighting spirit, which includes good treatment of veterans, is essential for a nation.

I disagree. A good fighting spirit, when needed, can exist independant of the honoring of veterans afterward, especially if, for instance, the denizens of the FCoD are more concerned about fighting for the protections of thier loved ones than how many of the opposing soldiers they may kill on the battlefield.



If only all nations (and all people) would be like that. But it's like Prisoner's Dilemma: as long as there are rats willing to gain advantage at the cost of others, people will have to be on their guard lest they find themselves on the receiving end of the stick. Happily, life provides more choices than the Prisoner's Dilemma, e.g. the readiness of a nation to repel any external attack, but without going into conquests itself.

A similar example would be crime and punishment. Some forms of punishment are really harsh, but they are still necessary in order to prevent proliferation of crime, which would be worse for society as a whole.

Unfortunately, humanity has not yet achieved (and will not, in the foreseeable future, achieve) a state when wars and punishments would be unnecessary and obsolete. The word "utopia" comes to mind.

Of course. And until that times comes (at least, in OOTS) it will be necessary to fight a situation such as that against the EoD. Or the EoB. However the danger is in how quickly a "just" war slips down that slippery slope into something the might not be so justified.

To paraphrase someone who will go unnamed and adjusting thier words for OOTS:

Every sword that is crafted, every catapault fired, every Evocation cast signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending XP alone. It is spending the sweat of its slaves, the genius of its scribes, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is the races of the world hanging from a cross of iron.


The above treats ALL wars equally -- and if you like, all adventuring parties -- both just and unjust. Whatever the conflict happens to be.

[Grimly Feendish]

I'm sure the Empress will be resolved somehow (and more likely than not, in an unfavourable way). But killing her by the hands of OoTS so soon doesn't seem to fall within the narrative too well. Although, of course, with Rich everything's possible.

It needn't be that soon - there are so many strands going on there could be a lot of strips before the actual arena combat starts, which could take a few episodes to resolve in itself.

[Undead Prince]

{Scrubbed}

[veti]

"Able to influence such lists' contents"=/="Deliberately personally responsible for the presence on that list of someone who, as far as all the evidence we currently have goes, he doesn't know from Xykon."

Xykon in the arena. Now that would be coooool...

Personally, I think Roy and Belkar will have no real problem surviving the arena. Apart from anything else, it just doesn't seem dramatically appropriate for either of them to die there.

[Orzel]

Nice one but no one died.

ORZEL NEED MORE BLOODSHED!!!

[rewinn]

If the Order ends up at the seige looking for Gerard, the Weepies decide to kidnap Tarquin's son to hold hostage, and when that fails, attack in force ... we may see Durkon rousing the troops thus ..

"They may take Elan...

They may take our lives...

But they canna take our Free (City of) Doom!"

[Nilan8888]

Supplanting justice with "necessity" represents, IMHO, a big slip on that slippery slope. Necessity is easier to argue than justice; and though both concepts have been abused in human history, necessity is by far the more tainted.

Then we definately disagree. In my view necessity is NO EASIER to prove than justice, and both are equally taintable concepts -- in fact justice moreso since the expectation would be higher. Give me any war you think was unjust and, for most of them at the time, we can find a civlian populace ready to argue it as a 'just' war. Because it would be a great admission of cognitive dissonance to acknowledge it as unjust. At the very least we usually need to wait a while before thier decendants will admit what it was really all about.

By supplanting justice with necessity we remove any connotation of the virtue of the person acting against aggression: he or she moves becuase they have to. Could someone distort this to make acts that are not necessary seem as though they are? Sure, of course. But justice suffers the same issues and IMO, to no less degrees.

Miko, of course, being the operative OOTS example of this concept. True, she also did what she thought was necessary -- but if that were all and she had not justified it in her head to boot, maybe she might not have carried through. Even in her own view, it seems, it was more than the concept of necessity driving her sword.



It is a symbolic destruction of morality, an overt declaration that interests are higher than morals, that base values trump lofty ideals. For a pragmatic politician, it may seem the same - but on the scale of an entire people, it represents a very visible shift of consciousness. Everything is allowed in pursuit of what is deemed "necessary"; justice, mercy, kindness bow before cold profit.

That would have to depend on the individual. And there's always issues with that, certainly. There will always be Tarquins or Xykons or misguided RedCloaks who will have a skewed view on what is necessary, or want others to skew thier view.

But at least once someone arrives at a decision on what is necessary it would be, in theory, easier to dissuade them of that opinion than if they thought their view was JUST. At least in the former case, we are removed from the notion that what they do is anything more than what must be done. If it not what must be done, then we already have an argument not to do it.

If, for instance, you object to the notion that cold profit could be deemed necessary for war, then I would suggest that be taken up with the vast minority of people who think that is an acceptable burden of proof. For most people, I would hope, self defense and the defense of others is the only true bar of necessity.



Without delving into RL examples, let's just say that for a number of reasons - including psychological - I'd rather stick to "just" wars rather than "necessary" wars.

And you are entitled to those reasons.



Justice is a concept which enters into play when someone else's interests are affected. There is no conflict about your health, so a successful medical operation has no relation to "justice". The wolf, however, is another case: some might argue that killing an animal which did not attack you was an "injustice" towards nature. Performing such a killing under certain circumstances - for example, in a national preserve - may even lead to punishment. Thus, an act which may have seemed a necessary precaution in your eyes would be considered unjust under the law (*ahem* "preventive war" *ahem*).


I was talking about a wolf wandering into your camp in search of food, seeing you and thus attacking -- maybe for food but maybe also out of sheer fright itself. I myself see no more justice here than in the former scenario of an operation: it had to be done and so it was done.



Veterans are honored not because they killed enemies, but because they killed enemies in protection of their country. And without such honoring, people would indeed be reluctant to join the armed forces and put their life on the line. Also, civilians would not understand how important it is to protect the country, if people who were doing the protecting do not receive the relevant honors. It is, of course, only an element of a healthy, self-preserving nation; but an important one, IMHO.

Actually certain sort of honoring of veterans can often tend to be precisely dependant on how many enemies they killed.

But regardless... isn't that, when you think about it, an unfortunate thing to say, that veterans would not have done what they did without quid pro quo? I am not, for the moment saying you are incorrect or trying to say "shame, shame" but that if the notion of nationhood really is so altruistic and for the good of 'the nation', then as you said -- to some degree, victory would be its own reward. That, plus adequate compensation: to have any veteran go without pension or adequate compensation for what they lost is not at all what I speak of.




Very touching and poetic: but it does not correlate all too well with your "necessity" theory, does it? After all, if the war is "necessary", the "sweat of the slaves" is justified, right?

No -- it's still just necessary in turn. Justified connotates for me that the sweat of the slaves... or if you like, craftsmen... is a good thing. Pure necessity connotates for me merely that it is better than the alternative. Which in this extended metaphor means pointless death.

I also it also ensures that the moment it's over people will want to stop living that way and not remember the entire horrid experience as anything more than civic duty that all are otherwise loathe to repeat.




By all means, we should all strive towards peace. But there are some cases when peace is simply unattainable, or bears an impossible cost. I think we're not far from each other; I simply believe "justice" implies a higher moral standard and is thus closer to the ideal, than "necessity".

Sure, perhaps it's just semanticsto a degree. I just happen to believe that phrasing conflicts as just and unjust wars implicitly allows us to accept more situations as having peace as "unattainable". And makes it easier to demonize you foe: after all, if a war can be described as just, that's only from the viewpoint of ONE SIDE, correct? How often have people described a just war where both sides were in the right?

Better, I say, to think of it in terms of necessity and then hold that notion the highest standard possible.


The author of your quote seems to agree with me: never once he speaks of "necessity", yet starts with "just peace" by "just men", counts "justice" and "just relations" among the basic desired principles of world affairs, mentions "just political life", " just political settlements", "just part" of his country, a "just formula" of disarmament, and finally puts "a just and peaceful world" as the endpoint of it all.

Where I start and stop agreeing with anyone I quote in such a way though, is precisely where the quote begins and ends. The author was an extremely respectable man, but IMO words can transcend thier authors.

And... let's try not get into him more than that. Others can look him up if they wish.

[Scarlet Knight]

If the Order ends up at the seige looking for Gerard, the Weepies decide to kidnap Tarquin's son to hold hostage, and when that fails, attack in force ... we may see Durkon rousing the troops thus ..

"They may take Elan...

They may take our lives...

But they canna take our Free (City of) Doom!"

Groooooan!
:smallwink:

[Weiser_Cain]

I think this "battle of the sexes" thing is really going too far and infringing upon rationality and common sense.

Battle of the sexes? No, you seem to think what established bad guy is doing is ok. I don't. That's all this is.

[Nilan8888]

Battle of the sexes? No, you seem to think what established bad guy is doing is ok. I don't. That's all this is.

And to be fair to the OTHER end of that debate... and to go back to what I was saying before... let's not confuse fiction with RL.

I doubt very few people think what Tarquin is doing here is just "ok" -- as tempting as it might be to think that.

[allenw]

Battle of the sexes? No, you seem to think what established bad guy is doing is ok. I don't. That's all this is.

I can't speak for U.P., but I think what many people are saying is that what Tarquin is doing is "ok" for a bad guy to do, and illustrates his character well (and probably earns him some roleplaying XP :smallamused:).

[Asthix]

What about appreciating Tarquin's villany on a literary level, which some have tried to explain can come across on the forums as 'I love Tarquin!'

Are you willing to concede that we can be stimulated intellectually by Tarqin's actions and their ramifications in the OotS world or are you advocating that his actions should not be represented in this comic because they're 'bad for society'?

[Acero]

What about appreciating Tarquin's villany on a literary level, which some have tried to explain can come across on the forums as 'I love Tarquin!'

Are you willing to concede that we can be stimulated intellectually by Tarqin's actions and their ramifications in the OotS world or are you advocating that his actions should not be represented in this comic because they're 'bad for society'?

I believe that's called a Magnificent Basterd. (too much self-respecct to post TVTropes)

[Kish]

I believe that's called a Magnificent Basterd. (too much self-respecct to post TVTropes)
Not too much to quote it, just too much to link it? That's an oddly specific level of self-respecct...

[Orzel]

Posting the link ensures at least 5 minutes of wasted life.

[whitelaughter]

Machiavelli's advice in "The Prince")
Should always be countered with a dose of Frederick the Great's anti-machiavel:
http://web.archive.org/web/20091018214908/http://geocities.com/danielmacryan/antimac.html

[hobbitkniver]

Hmm, I don't think I'm going to like Tarquin. I geuss only time will tell what will happen with him.

[Lemur Bear]

All I am hoping is that EoB doesn't grow far too big to start cultivating dissidents. It should just create a large power vacuum and worse...a long, drawn-out subplot where Elan would have to avenge his father. Then again, if Nale kills him, it would just reinforce the animosity that has died down since we last saw him.

What I don't actually understand is why they are keeping Durkon secret? He has been seeing entering the building (palace? castle? what is the term here?) and has spoken somewhat extensively with Malack. I understand that the pun had to be made, but beyond that? Didn't Durkon tell Elan, Haley, and V how he got into the building in addition to why he has come?

Finally, does that elf look surly enough to be upset that he lost a bet to Girard?

[hamishspence]

Should always be countered with a dose of Frederick the Great's anti-machiavel:
http://web.archive.org/web/20091018214908/http://geocities.com/danielmacryan/antimac.html

In The Discourses (Penguin Classics), one of the suggestions for further reading mentions a book- specifically:


"Machiavellianism" is traced, including many great men who covertly followed him, and others, like Frederick of Prussia, who denounced him publicly as a smokescreen for their private adherence (albiet an adherence to a myth more than a man), in Machiavellism: the doctrine of Raison D'Etat and it's Place in Modern History, by Friedrich Mienecke.

So- the anti-machiavel is strongly suggested as not matching the writer's views.

[cc_kizz]

I believe that's called a Magnificent Basterd. (too much self-respecct to post TVTropes)


Not too much to quote it, just too much to link it? That's an oddly specific level of self-respecct...

Heh.


Posting the link ensures at least 5 minutes of wasted life.

Exactly, Orzel! Thank you for not posting the link, Acero!

[Morgan Wick]

I had a similar moment of confusion, until I realized that Tarquin was referring to a (non-Dwarfish) part of his anatomy, rather than to the Ambassador.

:elan:: Wait - so you're saying that you're going back to your quarters to have a meeting with your secret dwarf ally?

Interpreted the way you do, Tarquin's response would seem to suggest he may be going in for a solo adventure... except for the "spelunking" bit...

[Dilvish]

If she was a good diplomat , she should have already implied the "I'll trade sex for troops" card. I believe that sex is a long standing weapon in the Ambassador arsenal, right along with other bribes...

This now gives me a disturbing thought about Kissinger arranging for Nixon's visit to China. :smalleek: