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View Full Version : 3.5 Draconic Template, is it worth it?



Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-15, 05:00 PM
It is a nice little flavorful template that gives some nice stuff, a net +6 gain in stat bonus, claw attacks, some perception abilites (Darkvision IIRC) and Dragonblood subtype.

All this for a nice little +1 LA, so my questions is it worthy with or without LA buy off?

If you are interested I might use it on a suel arcanamach build, planning on slapping it on either a LA 0 Hobgoblin (cause Hobs are awesome) or a human (might be the silverbrow variety)

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-15, 05:08 PM
It's a decent way to get some claws and the dragonblood subtype. The fact that it boosts Con as one of its three stats is nice. I like taking it if buy-off is in play, and it may have some uses even if it's not, but I generally don't grab +>0 templates if the buy-off isn't in play.

PId6
2010-08-15, 05:13 PM
It just doesn't give anything really important. There's no Powerful Build. There's no Outsider type. There's no Hide in Plain Sight. And there are no bonuses that give more than a minor boost. It's just not focused enough to be worth a level; the types of abilities that are worth LA involve things you can't easily get through magic items, class features, or LA +0 races, and Draconic template doesn't have anything like that.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-15, 05:17 PM
So that is a yes for worth it

What would be more profitable if I slap in a hobgoblin I get +2 Str +4 Con +2 Dex and +2 Cha, but if I slap it on a human I get +2 str +2 con and +2 cha, a bonus feat and bonus skill points.

Also a no hmmm, there are many good points about it... following that criteria PId6, what template would be worthy for a Suel Arcanamach?

PId6
2010-08-15, 05:21 PM
Dragonborn would be fantastic on an LA +0 Hobgoblin. +4 Con and flight, and you only trade away Darkvision and +4 to Move Silently.

There are a bunch of very powerful LA +1 templates that may be worthwhile, but those tend to be called "cheesy." Half-Minotaur, Lolth-Touched, Mineral Warrior and Feral are all good if allowed.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-15, 05:30 PM
Yeah I know those templates are grat on normal melee fighters, the problem is that IIRC all of them impose some kind of penalty to mental stats.

Since I am going for a Gish-esque build most of them don't work.

And now that you mention it adding Dragonborn might be a good idea .... let see Dragonborn Draconic Hobgoblin +2 Str +6 Con +0 Dex +0 Int +0 Wis +2 Cha...

Jack_Simth
2010-08-15, 05:47 PM
Well, for a pure melee character, a template is worthwhile when:

1) Your Attack bonus with the template is >= your attack bonus without the template.
2) Your HP with the template is >= your HP without the template.
3) Your damage with the template is >= your damage without the template.
4) Your AC with the template is >= your AC without the template.

For a Fighter with a pre-template Con of 18, that's after level 10 for the Draconic template.

Yorrin
2010-08-15, 06:03 PM
Yeah I know those templates are grat on normal melee fighters, the problem is that IIRC all of them impose some kind of penalty to mental stats.

Since I am going for a Gish-esque build most of them don't work.

And now that you mention it adding Dragonborn might be a good idea .... let see Dragonborn Draconic Hobgoblin +2 Str +6 Con +0 Dex +0 Int +0 Wis +2 Cha...

Lolth-Touched has no negatives to mental stats, but I'd be tough to persuade as a DM to let any of my players take it. +6 to Str/Con and some minor stealth boosts, with the flavor being exactly what it sounds like: the goddess Lolth has a thing for you.

Dragonborn gets my vote. Especially since you seem to like dracoic flavor anyway. Wings is almost always the best route to go with on that (huzzah flight!).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-15, 06:09 PM
Rough concept is a warrior of dragon descent which is trying to emulate his great-great grandfather* fighting style, buffing to hell and back and then enter the fray.

*I am fluffing draconic as a far descendant of a dragon, something like the grandchilf of the grandchild of a half dragon (whose father is still kicking)

PId6
2010-08-15, 06:12 PM
Suels only really need enough Cha to cast spells. 15 (or 16, to be even) Cha after items is easily achievable even with a racial Cha penalty. You want to be focusing on physical stats, since you're not going to need save DCs and you won't be getting that many bonus spells anyway.

FMArthur
2010-08-15, 06:17 PM
Draconic is a downright rotten deal for LA +1. You're paying a full class level for +2 to Strength, Constitution and Charisma and basically nothing else. I would rather take almost any 1-level dip in any class over it, and continuing in your normal class progression instead blows this option out of the water.

If you're looking for Draconic flavor (that actually grants you a Dragonblooded typing!), Dragonborn is typically the way to go. It's not hard to reflavor it as something else if you want.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-15, 06:19 PM
Ok it seems I should forget this...

Volos
2010-08-15, 06:21 PM
Any template without any spell like abilities, powers, or special rule breaking that you can take advantage of isn't worth the LA, no matter how low. Even if the DM is willing to ignore LA to a point, you are better off just playing a dragon or a template or race that gives you a good power play to smashing everything to bits. Goliath Dragonborn Barbarian for example. Powerful Build, Dragonborn bonuses, Barbarian Rage (Or Mountian Rage and go Large while raging), and nice bonuses to the stats you love. That's the way to go.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-08-15, 07:20 PM
Any template without any spell like abilities, powers, or special rule breaking that you can take advantage of isn't worth the LA
Any template with special rule breaking should be banned by any gm worth their salt. as far as powers and spell like abilities many of the templates that give those kind of things Suck. There are lots of good templates without them.

i like the draconic template as a flavor thing and i dont think its as underpowered as alot of people seem to insist it is. . . but then i'm one of the people who bans things like the mineral warrior template. if you LIKE draconic go draconic, its not the most optimized option in existence but its not going to cripple you and the flavor is pretty cool.

For the flavor your looking for without a LA, try going with one of these options. (just dump alot into STR berforehand)

Dragonborn (lesser) assimar: +2Cha, +2 Wis, +2 con, -2 dex

Dragonborn Spellscale: +2 Cha, -2 dex.

or for kicks if your starting higher than level 10. Dragonborn Raptoran: you get to keep that flyspeed and can pick heart for the dragonborn thing and boom your a flying fire breathing dragonman! (i'm rather fond of this flavor wise but you have to become a dragonborn late as far as game play is concerned in order to get the full fly speed, otherwise you just get glide or limited flight.)

All of those will give you all the benefits of being dragonborn plus the listed ability adjustments.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-15, 07:26 PM
I am starting at level 2, and I think I will go with my draconic dragonborn hobgoblin... need to ask my DM if he will allow it though.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-15, 08:52 PM
Any template with special rule breaking should be bannedexample please.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-08-16, 12:58 AM
example please.

not sure what template LordWolfgang was talking about but in general i as a GM would ban a template that explicitly has some kind of oversight that goes against the rules.

then again I'm of the school that belives in RAMS > RAI > RAW. . . rules as intended are far more important than rules as writen and in places where WotC has epicly failed rules house rule it for rules as make sense.

true_shinken
2010-08-16, 08:44 AM
Not worth on it's on, but it's fine via Dragon Devotee. Specially nice for Scouts, since they end up with more Skirmish damage than a straight Scout.

Greenish
2010-08-16, 08:52 AM
Ok it seems I should forget this...If you can buy the LA off and are gaining exp in steady pace, +1 won't gimp you, really. If you want claws and darkvision, go for it.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-16, 09:05 AM
If you can buy the LA off and are gaining exp in steady pace, +1 won't gimp you, really. If you want claws and darkvision, go for it.

Well that is actually a problem, my group is a much more casual so we only gather about twice a moth or so and as such I came up with a playstyle of getting the most benefits I can the fastest I can (which lead to some of my friends labeling me a munchkin:smallsigh:) so while LA buy off is on the table I am not sure how long it will take me to buy it (we are starting at level 2:smallannoyed:) and how long it will take for me to catch up.

true_shinken
2010-08-16, 09:15 AM
Well that is actually a problem, my group is a much more casual so we only gather about twice a moth or so and as such I came up with a playstyle of getting the most benefits I can the fastest I can (which lead to some of my friends labeling me a munchkin:smallsigh:) so while LA buy off is on the table I am not sure how long it will take me to buy it (we are starting at level 2:smallannoyed:) and how long it will take for me to catch up.

Dude, if you think it's cool, go for it.

Tokuhara
2010-08-16, 09:24 AM
If you want borderline cheesy, Pre-Errata White Dragonspawn could be your meal-ticket. 1LA for literally a 4+ LA template

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-16, 09:30 AM
Dude, if you think it's cool, go for it.
I think I'll go with it,

If you want borderline cheesy, Pre-Errata White Dragonspawn could be your meal-ticket. 1LA for literally a 4+ LA template

Nah, even for me thats too cheesy