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Admiral Squish
2010-08-15, 06:42 PM
Hit Die
d10

Class Skills
The class skills (and key ability modifier for each) of the Marshal are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points per Level
At 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Each level thereafter: 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level | BAB| Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Minor Auras | Major Auras
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Minor Aura, Touch of Vitality (Minor)| 1 | 0
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Major Aura +1 | 1 | 1
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Silvertongue| 2 | 1
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Hustle 1/day | 2 | 2
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Major Aura +2 | 3 | 2
6th | +6 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Touch of Vitality (Major) | 3 | 3
7th | +7 | +5 | +2 | +5 | | 4 | 3
8th | +8 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Hustle 2/day, Major Aura +2 | 4 | 4
9th | +9 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Double Aura (Minor) | 5 | 4
10th | +10 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Touch of Vitality (Restore) | 5 | 5
11th | +11 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Major Aura +3 | 6 | 5
12th | +12 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Hustle 3/day | 6 | 6
13th | +13 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Double Aura (Major)| 7 | 6
14th | +14 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Major Aura +4 | 7 | 7
15th | +15 | +9 | +5 | +9 | Touch of Vitality (Revivify) | 8 | 7
16th | +16 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Hustle 4/day | 8 | 8
17th | +17 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Major Aura +5 | 9 | 8
18th | +18 | +11 | +6 | +11 | | 9 | 9
19th | +19 | +11 | +6 | +11 | | 10 | 9
20th | +20 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Hustle 5/day, Major Aura +6 | 10 | 9
[/table]

Auras (Ex): The marshal exerts an effect on allies in his vicinity. He can learn to produce different effects, or auras, over the course of his career. The marshal may project one minor aura and (starting at 2nd level) one major aura at a time. Projecting an aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until the marshal uses a free action to dismiss it or activates another aura of the same kind (major or minor). A marshal can have an aura active continually; thus, an aura can be in effect at the start of a combat encounter even before the marshal takes his first turn. Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. A marshal sizes up the enemy, allies, and the terrain, then gives allies the direction that they can use to do their best. Unless otherwise noted, a marshal’s aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself ) who can hear the marshal. An ally must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand the marshal’s language to gain the bonus. A marshal’s aura is dismissed if he is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies. A marshal begins play knowing one minor aura of his choice. As his marshal level increases, he gains access to new auras, as indicated on the table. All bonuses granted by a marshal’s auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other.

Minor Aura: A minor aura lets allies add the marshal’s Charisma bonus (if any) to certain rolls.

Accurate Strike: Bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Demand Fortitude: Bonus on Fortitude saves.
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Force of Will: Bonus on Will saves.
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma based skill checks.
Motivate Constitution: Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.
Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.
Watchful Eye: Bonus on Reflex saves.

Major Aura: Beginning at 2nd level, a marshal can project a major aura in addition to his minor aura. A major aura lets allies add +1 to certain rolls. This bonus improves by +1 at 7th, 14th, and 20th level.

Hardy Soldiers: DR /- equal to his aura bonus.
Motivate Attack: Bonus to attack rolls
Motivate Power: Bonus to damage rolls.
Motivate Care: Bonus to Armor Class.
Motivate Speed: Bonus to land speed equal to 5 ft.x aura bonus.
Resilient Troops: Bonus on all saves.
Motivate Vigor: Fast healing equal to aura bonus, but only affects allies at or below one-half their full normal hit points.
Motivate Preparation: Energy resistance (Fire, cold, acid, or electricity, chosen when the aura is activated) equal to 5 x aura bonus
Motivate Potency: Bonus on save DCs of ally’s spells and abilities.

Touch of Vitality (Su): A marshal can heal the wounds of living creatures (his own or those of others) with a touch. Each day he can heal a number of points of damage equal to his class level x his charisma modifier. He can choose to divide his healing among multiple recipients and you don’t have to use it all at once. Using this healing is a standard action, but he may use it on himself as a swift action.
At 6th level, the number of points he can heal each day becomes equal to twice his class level x his charisma modifier.
At 10th level, he may begin using his touch of vitality to heal harmful conditions.
For 5 points of healing, you can cure one point of ability damage or remove a dazed fatigued, or sickened condition for one individual.
For 10 points of healing, you may remove the exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition from one individual.
For 20 points of healing, you can remove a negative level or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition from one individual.
You can remove a condition (or more than one condition) and heal damage with the same touch, as long as you spend the required amount of healing.
At 15th level, you can bring a creature back from the dead by expending 10 points of healing, plus 10 points for every round they have been dead. Creatures brought back in this way are at -1 HP and stable, and do not take any of the usual penalties for returning from the dead.

Silvertongue: A marshal gains a bonus equal to half his class level to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate checks.

Hustle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a marshal can direct and motivate his allies to act immediately. Once per day, as a standard action, he may grant an extra move action to any or all of his allies within 30 feet including himself. Each of the affected allies takes this extra move action immediately, acting in their current initiative order. This extra action does not affect the allies’ initiative count; the round continues normally after the marshal’s turn is over. At 8th level, a marshal gains the ability to grant an extra move action to his allies twice per day. The frequency increases to three times per day at 12th level, four times per day at 16th level, and five times per day at 20th level. A character can take only one extra move action per round. If an ally chooses not to take the extra move action, it is lost.

Double Aura: A marshal can project two minor auras at once, starting at 9th level. At 13th level, he can project two major auras at once as well.

-----------------------------
So, I'm trying to fix the marshal now. I have a thing for aura-based classes, it seems. I really think support-themed classes should get more support. I'm trying to fill in the dead levels and such, but I think I'm gonna need more major auras. Anyone have suggestions for major auras/things to fill in 7, 18, and 19?

Mulletmanalive
2010-08-16, 12:50 PM
My present thinking is that this hasn't really addressed the issues that were present with the Marshal in the first place. Sure, you've made the auras more powerful and more useful, but they're still passive.

And passive isn't an action and so it seems boring...

White Raven was the prototype for the Leader classes in 4e so cribbing notes from there might be worth while. The main thing is that the actions of the Marshal should matter:

A successful blow grants a morale bonus to your allies attack rolls

Getting hit grants a bonus to AC

You can hijack an allied character to make an AoO

that kind of thing

I'd make suggestions but the class is so inactive at the moment that i can't come up with anything. Sorry.

Pechvarry
2010-08-16, 03:40 PM
This version has, however, received a nice buff to skills. I can see this being a nice way to look at your marshal: you have more auras (and therefore more auras that provide bonuses to assorted skills), and you have more skills. There's a natural synergy, here.

However, you could also say you're making more of a spell-less bard.

While I wouldn't mind seeing it drop back to 4 skills/level (but keeping the broadened skill list) in return for some more active abilities... there comes a point where it becomes easier to just make a sublime marshal for handling that stuff --of which there's a good one that's been around for years.

Admiral Squish
2010-08-16, 08:59 PM
I don't see why we have a problem with 'passive' abilities. I mean, people don't like abilities that take a whole lot of actions, and I even boosted the BaB to make this guy a pretty capable frontliner himself so he'd be able to contribute to the fight while using his auras at the same time.

I don't get it. I make rockets, people ask for seeker missiles. I make seeker missiles, and now they ask for rockets!

As for the suggested ideas... I don't have/know ToB, so I really couldn't use white raven as a base for this, even if I wanted to.

Pechvarry
2010-08-17, 12:18 PM
You're doing fine. I think the problem with Marshal and being active is that the only active ability (grant move action/hustle) has uses/day. If it were per-encounter, then at least you have tactical, marshal-esque options.

But you're right. You upped their BAB to full and gave them a big bonus to Intimidate (hello, Imperious Command feat!), so they should be finding ways to contribute in combat as a Fighter would.

Am I alone in thinking changing Hustle to per-encounter wouldn't be overpowered?

Draz74
2010-08-17, 12:28 PM
I think creating any class with this strong of a chassis is bad design, even if the class's features are weak enough to keep it from being overpowered overall.

d10 Hit Dice, good BAB, good Fort/Will, and 6+Int skill points per level? No published class has a chassis that good. That's like a Ranger who gets to switch his Reflex and Will saves (which is an improvement) and upgrade his Hit Dice by one step ... or a Crusader who gets to upgrade his Will save to good and pick up an extra two skill points. And Ranger and Crusader already weren't bad in this regard.

I think you should drop the skill points to 4+Int. If that seems too low, give the class more reasons to have a good Intelligence. Also, either drop the Hit Die to d8, or lose one of the good saves. (Personally, the good Will save doesn't particularly sit well with me flavor-wise, on this class.)

Zombieboots
2010-08-17, 01:44 PM
Instead of "Touch of Vitality" give them Adrenaline Rush, which is a variant from the PHBII. Allow them to keep hustle as well.

Drop the Skill points to 4 or 2, but I agree with the Duel good saves and definitely full BAB.

Admiral Squish
2010-08-17, 02:45 PM
Adrenaline Rush works pretty well. Perhaps put it as a 1/encounter thing at level seven? I don't want to overload those levels...

I could see hustle being made into a /encounter ability, keeping the same scaling.

Hmm... Perhaps I could make 4th level into a 1/encounter ability that can have different effects. Adrenaline Rush, Hustle, Maybe some bonus D6s to damage for allies for one round... Stuff like that. Then scale the uses as he levels.

Pechvarry
2010-08-18, 09:55 PM
I think creating any class with this strong of a chassis is bad design, even if the class's features are weak enough to keep it from being overpowered overall.

d10 Hit Dice, good BAB, good Fort/Will, and 6+Int skill points per level? No published class has a chassis that good.

How about d8 HD, 3/4th BAB, 2 strong saves, 4 skills/level, and 9th level spells in addition to some of the most potent class features? Yeah that'd be Druid.

That said, I'd still prefer 4+int skills. You've broadened their skill list and given them more minor auras so grabbing the +check auras feel less like a waste.

Also neat: because tripping is a strength check, Motivate Strength and Art of War, with the Double Aura ability, make an amazing tripper.

Admiral Squish
2010-08-18, 10:54 PM
I actually did the 4+int skills already. I didn';t mention 'cause I was gonna change something else too and post it both at once, but I couldn't figure out what I wanted changed.

kestrel404
2010-08-19, 08:42 AM
What I like: Class features. As long as there are class features, there are reasons to keep advancing a class. Keeping up the Major Aura progression gives a reason to actually CARE about it - it might actually matter at level 15, if you're getting a +20' boost in speed.

What I don't like: You've got dead levels at 18 & 19. In all honesty, this version of the marshal ends at level 9, MAYBE at 13-15, but there's no way I'm going to stick around for 5 leves for what amounts to +2 bonus to X, +2 uses of hustle, and couple of the useless auras.

Suggestions: First, move some stuff around. The class features are given out sort of at random. Most nice classes give things out at regularly spaced intervals so that they can avoid long 'dry' periods of class features.

Touch of Vitality - Change this to Combat Medic, and make it EX. Change the power names to something less magical - militarty ranks? Or perhaps just Simple, Improved, Revive? Specify that death by Critical hit (i.e. Decapitation, pierced heart, etc.) stops Revivify from working, and change the cost to "10 + Damage beyond 0 + 5 per round dead", to emulate the extra effort needed to save the really bad off. Change it so that you get Combat Medic(Major) at level 5, to keep the spacing even, and then at level 20 give the special power Combat Medic(Triage), which allows you to revive people up to an hour after their death without spending the extra healing for tiem spent dead - basically a 'mass revive' so that your supposed army of followers can be restored after battles.

Major Aura - Space out the bonuses. I'd start it out as +2 at level 2 (since the minor aura is SO MUCH BETTER early on, and the Major Aura is supposed to be the real power), then an extra +1 every 4 levels thereafter (6,10,14,18).

Hustle - 4th edition got it right. Granting someone a move action should be a move action. Other than that, great.

Silvertongue - Make this a stepped bonus. +2 at 3, and an additional +2 every 4 levels (7,11,15,19). You end up with the same bonus (give or take a point), but it fills out the class feature table more nicely. Also, Silvertongue should be added as a bonus to Leadership score for determining number of followers (but not max HD of primary follower).

Fill in the gaps - One issue I've always had with the Marshal is that the Auras never got bigger. It may not feel like an issue, but if anyone in the party decides to use mounted combat then they would be out of the aura half the time. So to fill in a couple of low spots in the progression, I would put in a double aura range, and a 'really big aura' class feature at levels 7 and 17 respectively. So:
Improved Aura Range (Ex): The Marshal's aura extends to 120'
Superior Aura Range (Ex): Any character that has line of sight to the marshal, or can hear the sound of his voice, benefits from the effects of his auras.

Now, your class table looks like:
1 Minor Aura, Combat Medic
2 Major Aura +2
3 Silvertongue +2
4 Hustle 1/day
5 Combat Medic (Improved)
6 Major Aura +3
7 Silvertongue +4, Improved Aura Range 120'
8 Hustle 2/day
9 Double Minor Aura
10 Major Aura +4, Combat Medic (Restore)
11 Silvertongue +6
12 Hustle 3/day
13 Double Major Aura
14 Major Aura +5
15 Silvertongue +8, Combat Medic (Revive)
16 Hustle 4/day
17 Superior Aura Range
18 Major Aura +6
19 Silvertongue +10
20 Hustle 5/day, Combat Medic (Triage)

One other suggestion: UMD should be a class skill.

Hope that helps.

Admiral Squish
2010-08-19, 07:06 PM
Responses in Bold



Suggestions: First, move some stuff around. The class features are given out sort of at random. Most nice classes give things out at regularly spaced intervals so that they can avoid long 'dry' periods of class features.

I will admit the touch of vitality is pretty random, but that was mostly to try to fix the blankspot and prevent overlap. Major auras are pretty straightforward, every three levels after 2nd, and hustle is ever 4 levels.

Touch of Vitality - Change this to Combat Medic, and make it EX. Change the power names to something less magical - militarty ranks? Or perhaps just Simple, Improved, Revive? Specify that death by Critical hit (i.e. Decapitation, pierced heart, etc.) stops Revivify from working, and change the cost to "10 + Damage beyond 0 + 5 per round dead", to emulate the extra effort needed to save the really bad off. Change it so that you get Combat Medic(Major) at level 5, to keep the spacing even, and then at level 20 give the special power Combat Medic(Triage), which allows you to revive people up to an hour after their death without spending the extra healing for tiem spent dead - basically a 'mass revive' so that your supposed army of followers can be restored after battles.

Could work. I basically just cribbed this off dragon shaman as it is, but it could pretty easily be remade the way you suggest. As for specifics.
Simple, improved, something for the removing conditions, then 'don't die on me' or something for revive.
The changed mechanics of revive seem okay, though I'm not sure if you normally keep track past -10.
Triage seems okay, but I don't know if you'd have enough healing to go around if you're actually using your healing normally.

Major Aura - Space out the bonuses. I'd start it out as +2 at level 2 (since the minor aura is SO MUCH BETTER early on, and the Major Aura is supposed to be the real power), then an extra +1 every 4 levels thereafter (6,10,14,18).

Well, the way it was spaced did manage to pretty neatly land the +6 on 20th. Plus, if, as you said, the major aura's supposed to be the real power, wouldn't it make more sense to have them closer together to let the player feel that he's advancing faster?

Hustle - 4th edition got it right. Granting someone a move action should be a move action. Other than that, great.

But then, this is granting EVERYONE a move action, so I think standard fits.

Silvertongue - Make this a stepped bonus. +2 at 3, and an additional +2 every 4 levels (7,11,15,19). You end up with the same bonus (give or take a point), but it fills out the class feature table more nicely. Also, Silvertongue should be added as a bonus to Leadership score for determining number of followers (but not max HD of primary follower).

the max level of follower has a built-in limit of 2 levels under you, if memory serves. So it wouldn't affect the cohort anyways. As for a stepped bonus, I really don't like those. They feel annoying to me.

Fill in the gaps - One issue I've always had with the Marshal is that the Auras never got bigger. It may not feel like an issue, but if anyone in the party decides to use mounted combat then they would be out of the aura half the time. So to fill in a couple of low spots in the progression, I would put in a double aura range, and a 'really big aura' class feature at levels 7 and 17 respectively. So:
Improved Aura Range (Ex): The Marshal's aura extends to 120'
Superior Aura Range (Ex): Any character that has line of sight to the marshal, or can hear the sound of his voice, benefits from the effects of his auras.

I think 30 feet is a pretty good baseline for closeness. I could see perhaps expanding it to 60 feet, maybe 120 as a capstone. LoS/Hear his voice seems like it would be pretty ridiculous.

Now, your class table looks like:
{table=head]Level | Special
1| Minor Aura, Combat Medic (Basic)
2| Major Aura +2
3| Silvertongue
4| Hustle 1/day
5| Combat Medic (Improved)
6| Major Aura +3
7| Leadership
8| Hustle 2/day
9| Double Minor Aura
10| Major Aura +4, Combat Medic (Restore)
11| Powerful Voice 60'
12| Hustle 3/day
13| Double Major Aura
14| Major Aura +5
15| Combat Medic (Revive)
16| Hustle 4/day
17| Superior Aura Range
18| Major Aura +6
19| Combat Medic (Triage)
20| Hustle 5/day, Mighty Voice 120'
[/table]

How about something more like this?

One other suggestion: UMD should be a class skill.

Sure, why not.

Hope that helps.