Swordsage Troubles

[TechnOkami]

Alright, I'll get straight to the point. I am in the process for making an Illithid Swordsage, and I want him to have actual shiny pieces of metal on a stick for weapons, aka, a NON unarmed swordsage. After I hack down my LA to +0, my original plan was to have a Katana/Bastard sword to use with the Diamond Mind abilities and a short sword aka wakizachi to use with the Setting Sun and Shadow Hand abilities. In short: revamping the samurai class with the swordsage for a TWFing machine.

Now, this is my original plan for this character. I'm interested in if there are weapons which would be better, and the only thing which must stay are the Illithid and the use of Diamond Mind. Everything else I'm willing to bend and/or replace.

So to ye giants who play in the playground... ...you're it.

P.S.: Do you have to use the preferred weapons in a particular discipline?

[FMArthur]

If you are not actually attacking with both weapons at the same time, you can be holding one in each hand for separate individual use with maneuvers without having to take Two Weapon Fighting or use its associated rules and penalties. You just can't wield your reflavored longsword two-handed to get 1.5 your strength bonus because you won't have a free hand. Neither weapon will recieve an 'off-hand' damage reduction, either.

edit:

P.S.: Do you have to use the preferred weapons in a particular discipline?

Deal lord no! Some classes and feats can get you small bonuses for doing so, nothing more.

[TechnOkami]

Deal lord no! Some classes and feats can get you small bonuses for doing so, nothing more.

O O T_____T I've been living a lie, I swear...

Ok, so what would be best for an Illithid who wants to use Diamond Mind and have a non unarmed strike weapon?

P.S. A much wiser question: I have a semblance of an idea as how a swordsage works and how to play as one, but then again, its only a semblance. Can anyone actually explain to me how to play as one and what the different disciplines do and which would work better for an Illithid?

[The Rabbler]

well... any weapon, really. It's really up to you. kukris are nice for the crit (and you don't really need base damage for diamond mind maneuvers), but you could even use a greatsword and do perfectly fine.

I guess what comes next is that you need to decide what else you want to do with the character. Diamond Mind is only one discipline and there aren't enough strikes in it to completely base your character around (at least IMHO).

I'd go with a pair of kukris and then use Desert Wind, Tiger Claw, and Diamond Mind primarily; but that's just personal preference.

EDIT: how do you want to play your character? that'll be the biggest modifier on what is best for you to get.

[FMArthur]

Well... Greatswords are basically the "standard" weapon that everyone and their dog uses, being just generally good and all. Other weapons have other desirable properties for small adjustments, so it's up to you. Falchions and scythes are reasonably popular, as are the exotic Spiked Chains. Your Swordsage Discipline Focus can get you a relatively insignificant Weapon Focus with rapiers and bastard swords (take note that a bastard sword wielded two-handed is a martial, not exotic weapon).

Playing a swordsage is just like playing any class with activatable abilities. Diamond Mind has some great maneuvers... Desert Wind has some lackluster ones (fire resistance is common), but for the most part ToB is well-designed enough that you don't have to be watching out for hidden pitfalls and 'trap' options; you can take any maneuvers you like and have a strong and fun character to use. The only feat you need is Adaptive Style, but a Diamond Mind-focused character might enjoy Skill Focus (Concentration) as well.

Lastly, what will your LA +0 Illithid grant you in terms of abilties? Diamond Mind is probably the best flavor-wise for an illithid, but as almost purely-mental creatures, your race isn't likely to influence your Swordsaging that much.

[TechnOkami]

So, what I mean by hacking my LA to +0 is hacking it from +7 to +0 via some LA lowering method in Complete Arcane? Not too sure which book its in, but basically I would gain enough exp to level up to 7 and then I erase both that exp and a single "+1" from my LA, gradually lowering it so I won't need to worry about it.

As per what type of character I prefer to play as: fighter types.

[FMArthur]

So, what I mean by hacking my LA to +0 is hacking it from +7 to +0 via some LA lowering method in Complete Arcane? Not too sure which book its in, but basically I would gain enough exp to level up to 7 and then I erase both that exp and a single "+1" from my LA, gradually lowering it so I won't need to worry about it.

As per what type of character I prefer to play as: fighter types.

I am very skeptical of this method. Could you please explain? And you'll still be stuck with eight Racial Hit Dice, meaning you can only begin to play this character at level 8 (before your first Swordsage level) even without LA.

Why not try and find a weaker homebrewed Illithid with less (or no) Level Adjustment and Racial Hit Dice? It seems easier if your DM is already willing to allow some wierd LA tricks that basically amount to cheating... :smallwink:

[TechnOkami]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm

I'm sorry, I forgot it was in the SRD.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

As far as I can recall, XP buyoff works off of a (LA x 3) ratio. For example, a +3 LA would require hitting level 9 for the first buyoff (3 LA x 3) then 15 for the second (2 LA x 3) and 18 (1 LA x 3) for the third. Using that method, you'd be well into epic play before your +7 cthulu-faced zombie-larper put a dent in his LA (ECL 28 to be exact).

Of course, this is assuming that there isn't another method altogether that I am completely forgetting about. :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

Oh. Oh dear. It seems that you may want to give that, and the system for Effective Character Level, another read.

[TechnOkami]

Yeah I just re-read that :/

No worries though, my GM and I are working on lowering the LA of an Illithid.

So... any other suggestions?

[DeltaEmil]

Use weapons with either good crit-range (18-20), like falchions, scimitars, kukri and other similar stuff, or use weapons with special advantages, that allow you to trip the enemy or help you disarm, or a reach weapon (which also helps a lot when disarming). The bastardsword/katana is a bad weapon to use a feat for. Just claim that your scimitar looks like a katana, if you absolutely wish to have that "skin" on your weapon of choice.

[TechnOkami]

Would dipping a level in Samurai be a bad idea?

I'm sorry, i just like the idea of an Illithid Swordsage dual wielding Katana and Wakizachi...

[DeltaEmil]

Yes, it would be a terrible idea, as it slows your progression in swordsage down just for a weak and ultimately useless feat. One level samurai (from the complete warrior-book) only gives you an exotic-weapon feat, which sucks in every way.

[TechnOkami]

So ok, i'm given reason enough to not wield a katana.

...would two weapon fighting benefit a swordsage at all, or should I just use one single weapon with bunches of abilities?

[DeltaEmil]

If you use damage enhancing abilities like the Assassin's Stance from the Shadow Hand school, which gives you sneak attack, then fighting with two weapons is good. Two-weapon-fighting is especially good with the Tiger Claw school, as there are many boosts that allow you an additional attack without a penalty to attack, but it's up to you if you want to use that school.

If you don't use any of that, then forget two-weapon-fighting.

[TechnOkami]

k, so would two weapon fighting work well while using diamond mind and shadow hand?

[DeltaEmil]

There are only two abilities in the diamond mind school that give you benefits or help you when making a full-attack (which is the only way to make use of the bonus-attack confered by the second weapon), notably moment of alacrity (boosting your initiative by +20 points, allowing you to practically act again for a swift action) and quicksilver motion, which allows you to do a free move action (and then combining with a full-attack). For shadow hand, only assassin's stance is really helpful, giving you the +2d6 sneak attack ability.
Only the tiger claw school has maneuvers that help two-weapon attacks.

[TechnOkami]

Ok, so with using only one weapon, what would be good to pair with Diamond Mind?

[DeltaEmil]

Anything that does a lot of damage, has special qualities like better crit-range, really high critical multiplier, reach, gives you bonus to trip or disarm, and other such similar stuff.
Alternatively, use anything you like and you have in mind, just don't waste precious feats for that if you can accomplish it easier. Use a bastard sword/katana two-handed, or reskin any kind of weapon like a a normal longsword, a rapier, or a great sword, a falchion or even a great axe into a katana (claiming that it's a really heavy katana or something like that).

[FyreByrd]

My preferred swordsage setup is:

TWF Rapier & Kukri (Both "keen" if possible!)

Disiplines
Diamond Mind
Tiger's Claw (for twf especially)
ShadowHand

With the right manounvers/stances you can become a crit machine very quickly

[Escheton]

Seeing the racial lvl from Illithids also grant psion manifesting if I am not mistaken (yup, xph 9telepath lvls) you want to hold on to those racials.
Culling it a bit might be nice if you are playing a lvl 7 game though.
You could also replace the telepath manifesting with swordsage maneuvering and you have your character straight out of the box.

[TechnOkami]

I really hope someone will respond to this, but what I really forgot to mention is that my plan to get rid of the Illithid LA. Since our party is at such a high level (10ish) our GM allows us to go up to that level. I plan to get rid of the +7 LA via the starting level, and effectively be a lvl 3 Illithid Swordsage. Please take this into your calculations.

[FMArthur]

I really hope someone will respond to this, but what I really forgot to mention is that my plan to get rid of the Illithid LA. Since our party is at such a high level (10ish) our GM allows us to go up to that level. I plan to get rid of the +7 LA via the starting level, and effectively be a lvl 3 Illithid Swordsage. Please take this into your calculations.

No offense, but this sounds a lot like cheating to me. Have you told your DM, and made sure he/she actually understands what you are doing?

[WinWin]

You could try half-illithid from fiend folio. LA is still a crippling +5 though.

Otherwise I would suggest the Illithid bloodline feats from complete psionic. There is a presige class called flayerspawn psychic in the same book. Using a few adaptations could provide what you are looking for. It would not be that difficult to adapt the bloodline to spellcasting presrequisites.

Failing that, make a Psionic Gish character with access to maneuvers. That would synergise well with Diamond Mind.

The main difficulty in playing a race like Mind Flyers is the unusual abilities they receive. It throws normal power progression out of whack. By removing LA your character becomes to powerful for their level. By playing with the LA, your character is crippled.

[huttj509]

No offense, but this sounds a lot like cheating to me. Have you told your DM, and made sure he/she actually understands what you are doing?

Wait, what? Sounds like the OP intends to be an Illithid Swordsage 3, which with 7 LA means a CR 10 character, to join a CR 10 group.

Well, RHD might bite that, but isn't that how LA works? Where's the cheating?

Now if he were joining a level 3 group, sure...

[WinWin]

It does not factor in racial hit dice. A level 3 illithid swordsage has 8hd+3swordsage+7LA, or ECL 18.

An 18th level character in a group composed of level 10's.

[true_shinken]

Just be a human and take illithid heritage feats for the flavor.

[HamHam]

Using starting XP with LA buyoff is fairly standard. However, given how high the LA is, I'm not sure what level you are starting at that you can even do it.

On the other hand, AFAIK racial HD count for initiator level like a normal multiclass so you basically start with 3rd level manuevers, and at 3rd level of swordsage will get 4th.

EDIT: Unless you just got rid of the RHD. Which is really probably not broken.

[Escheton]

Using starting XP with LA buyoff is fairly standard. However, given how high the LA is, I'm not sure what level you are starting at that you can even do it.

On the other hand, AFAIK racial HD count for initiator level like a normal multiclass so you basically start with 3rd level manuevers, and at 3rd level of swordsage will get 4th.

EDIT: Unless you just got rid of the RHD. Which is really probably not broken.

The special abilitys and psi manifesting are not just based off LA. They are tacked on because the racial HD make sure you can't do what the OP is trying to do. Without the racial HD the LA should be higher.

[HamHam]

The special abilitys and psi manifesting are not just based off LA. They are tacked on because the racial HD make sure you can't do what the OP is trying to do. Without the racial HD the LA should be higher.

Eh. There is no way a vanilla mindflayer (with PC gear) is actually equal in power to a level 15 PC.

[Yorrin]

LA issues aside, the only school that supports TWF is Tiger Claw, so you're gonna want to invest heavily in that if you're stuck on TWFing.

[TechnOkami]

Mm... now I need to go weapon hunting for the best of the best.

[Greenish]

Mm... now I need to go weapon hunting for the best of the best.Yeah, well, that'll be guisarme most likely. Glaive if you don't need tripping. If for some reason you don't want reach, falchion.

For TWF, a pair of kukris.

[Draz74]

If for some reason you don't want reach, falchion.

Greatsword is better than falchion (though less stylish IMO), unless you're focusing hard on crit-fishing. Most Swordsages don't crit-fish if they're not doing dual-kukri style.

[Greenish]

Greatsword is better than falchion (though less stylish IMO), unless you're focusing hard on crit-fishing.Or using PA. Or have Craven. Or just decent static bonuses from strength, weapon enhancements and the lot.

Greatsword's edge on having two points higher average damage is eclipsed pretty fast by falchion's better threat range.

[dgnslyr]

Or using PA. Or have Craven. Or just decent static bonuses from strength, weapon enhancements and the lot.

Greatsword's edge on having two points higher average damage is eclipsed pretty fast by falchion's better threat range.

I did the math the greatsword is better. While 2 damage seems like very little, it means a lot when comparing 5 to 7.

Over twenty hits, a Greatsword does 154 damage on average, dealing 7 damage per hit and 14 on each of the two crits scored over twenty hits. The falchion does 10 damage a hit, with one extra crit, making it do 115 damage over 20 hits. Assuming static bonuses are equal and apply to both weapons, you'd need to be dealing +20 damage or more on each hit to come out ahead. With Improved Critical, you only need +10 or more static bonus damage on each hit, having two more crits on average. If you had a +5 bonus to strength and a +5 weapon and Improved Critical, you'd come out ahead. Of course, if you're going with a crit-heavy build, the falchion might come out ahead, but I haven't calculated for that. Also, crit-immune monsters.

TL, DR: Greatsword is usually better.

Edit: Forgot about PA doing getting a much better deal with two-handed weapons. If you have Shock Trooper and Power Attack, good feats to have anyway, it's much easier to get that +20 damage.

[Draz74]

Or using PA. Or have Craven. Or just decent static bonuses from strength, weapon enhancements and the lot.

Greatsword's edge on having two points higher average damage is eclipsed pretty fast by falchion's better threat range.

Not from the math analyses I've seen. Consider also that you will face some crit-immune monsters at some point.

[Greenish]

Not from the math analyses I've seen. Consider also that you will face some crit-immune monsters at some point.If we believe the poster above, one needs measly +10 static damage for the keen falchion to come ahead. Oh, and then there are the maneuvers, such as the nightmare blades (except the first) and insightful strikes which are also multiplied.

True enough there are crit immune monsters, but as long as they're the exception, not the rule, you'll be fine. And meh, two damage. Someone relying on full attacks might care.

[WinWin]

Mancatcher. Seriously...If you are going to play a Mind Flayer, then advance the grappling.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you're going to play a mindflayer... be a Psion. Or Sorcerer, depending on which flavour of mindflayer you're using.

Mindflayers do not make good PCs. They don't even make good PC Psions/Sorcerers.

[Draz74]

If we believe the poster above, one needs measly +10 static damage for the keen falchion to come ahead.
He was neglecting the part where you have to confirm critical hits, which is far from automatic when your target has decent AC.


Oh, and then there are the maneuvers, such as the nightmare blades (except the first) and insightful strikes which are also multiplied.
I haven't seen maneuvers factored into any decent mathematical analyses, true. That might pull the falchion ahead, depending how many crit-immune enemies you face.


True enough there are crit immune monsters, but as long as they're the exception, not the rule, you'll be fine. And meh, two damage. Someone relying on full attacks might care.

I never said the falchion was useless, or that the character wouldn't function with one. In fact, yes, I would probably pick a falchion myself, since I think it's more stylish and don't care very much about 2 fewer average damage. I was just stating that, by the strict numbers, greatsword is usually a stronger choice.

[Greenish]

I was just stating that, by the strict numbers, greatsword is usually a stronger choice.And I remain sceptical.

Meh, either way, the difference isn't that large.

[Draz74]

And I remain sceptical.

Meh, either way, the difference isn't that large.

True ... and either way, you're probably better off with a Reach weapon.

Nice spelling of "skeptical," btw. :smallwink: I'm trying to figure out what that word should mean ... It's reminding me of "scepter" and "septic" ...

[Greenish]

True ... and either way, you're probably better off with a Reach weapon.Sadly true.


Nice spelling of "skeptical," btw. :smallwink: I'm trying to figure out what that word should mean ... It's reminding me of "scepter" and "septic" ...It means "Americans need to learn to spell". :smalltongue:

[Escheton]

Crit immune critters still trigger the burst effects. And one has to love a keen heavenly burst falchion. 3d6 extra dmg and a possible 1 round blindness on a crit? yes please.

[Theodoxus]

Using Savage Species progression isn't bad. Nor would going gestalt with illithid on one side.

I wouldn't use it for a martial character, but I can the draw. At any rate, it's between you and your gm...

Removing RHD isn't a bad compromise either, but I'd use that in conjunction with the savage species progression... so you aren't advancing beyond the rest of your party too quickly.

[subject42]

I'm sorry, i just like the idea of an Illithid Swordsage dual wielding Katana and Wakizachi...

If I were a creature with absolutely vital pieces of my anatomy dangling off of the edge of my face, I don't know if I would particularly like to learn a sword form that requires a lot of dexterity and motions that pass razor-sharp steel in front of my head.

There's potential for fun backstory here.