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Orannis
2010-08-16, 11:10 AM
I was sitting around trying to think of a cool encounter for my party (all level 8) and I started thinking about the possibility of one guy taking them all on (there are like 8 of them) and still giving them a run for their money by using great tactics, surprise, and range. I was thinking of a fgt5/asn3 crossbow fighter. The idea would be he would use like 4 different crossbows each one using different bolts to take them down. He would start by studying the cleric from the roof top for three rounds (without them knowing of course) and then shooting to paralyze using a heavy crossbow. He would then drop that instead of reloading and quick draw (he will have that feat) a repeating heavy crossbow and plant 5 bolts with poison in the rest of the group. This will all be the surprise round. He will be in partial cover so the next round he wil draw two hand crosbows and duel wield them to try to take down the wizard and sorcerer. He will have three other heavy crossbows hidden around the area with different bolts to incapacitate the PCs. My question is this, Can you duel wield hand crossbows and reload them? He will have the rapid reload feat for hand crossbows. If not I was going to wither have him have repeating hand crossbows (homebrew something) or just have him drop them and draw new ones. I am limited to the core three rule books for 3.5. thanks!

Diarmuid
2010-08-16, 12:37 PM
Unless you do something to otherwise account for it, your assassin will only be able to take a standard action in a surprise round so he certainly wont be getting 6 attacks.

There is nothing in Core that allows for reloading hand crossbows with a hand crossbow in each hand.

Why are you focusing so much on the varying different heavy crossbows if the biggest boon is the different bolts? The Heavy Repeater is a good idea to get poison into everyone and soften them up with the bigger dmg die, but then just use a Light X-Bow with Rapid Reload and you can load whatever kind of bolts you want.

I would imagine the penalties for dual wielding and rapid shotting would quickly make hitting the party difficult so 1-2 less attacks in a round is likely not going to lose you much in the long run anyway.

Other problems with your build, a 5th lvl fighter has no chance of meeting the prereqs for being an assassin. His skill caps for x-class would be 4, not the 8 required for being an assassin.

With a BAB of +7, and Rapid Shot, this guy is only qualifying for 3 attacks in a round. Not sure how he'd be getting off 5-6 in your description.

Last Laugh
2010-08-16, 12:45 PM
It seems like he will be very feat heavy.
Level 4 fighter/XXX1/assassin 3 is a better plan, fighter gains nothing at level 5
Fighter has 2+int skills per level, Hide, Move Silently and Disguise are all cross class for them. making it impossible for him to legally qualify by level 5.

Instead of giving him quick draw AND rapid reload give him a Handy Haversack full of an arrangement of crossbows (hand/heavy, poisoned/unpoisoned, adamantine bolts/cold iron bolts)
Or just let him use Rapid Reload to reload, you only need one of the feats.

The Death attack may fail, cleric's have high fortitude, his fort is 6+con+spells/items. You may want to target the arcane caster or rogue instead. (the cleric would succeed on a 10.)

A Rogue with use magical device would be more effective at doing this (I think).
Just make your sneak attacks deal subdual damage (-4 penalty, I think there is a feat that takes away the -4)
Using Scrolls of true strike and various magicks to buff before hand, ensuring the first hit is a high damage sneak attack (+5d6?).
Mirror image isn't a bad idea, as well as hired hands. If the level 8 assassin hires 3 level 5 fighters to distract the party his chances of success go up (and he's evil so he just kills the fighters later)

Is he kidnapping them?

Escheton
2010-08-16, 12:53 PM
Give him a +1 implacable (+3) repeater.
Its in the MiC. It causes bleed 2 that stacks. That needs a healcheck to stop. But more importantly it forces the cleric to make a dc15 casterlvlcheck to cast healing spells on them when they are so affected.

A spellthief or even better a flying invisible warlock would also be good for this.
If that is not too your liking, check out featrogue.

Yora
2010-08-16, 12:57 PM
If you want to scare them, don't pincushion them to death right at the beginning of the battle. Use the environment and stealth to get a few shots at them and then disappear before they can reach the attacker. Then have him jump out of hiding behind their backs, put four more bolts into them, and be gone again.
Also, you might use traps. Even if a bolt just hits the ground next to a character without real chance of scoring a hit, it will still confuse them about their attackers real positions. There's that great episode "Poker Face" of Ghost In The Shell, that's essentially about that kind of situation. The attaker uses satelite support and life video feeds, but the basics are mostly the same.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-16, 02:09 PM
Also, the Assassin's Death Attack must be done using a melee weapon.

thubby
2010-08-16, 02:18 PM
you could update the old explosive enchant from arms and armor
2d4 in a 5foot circle :D

Crasical
2010-08-16, 03:46 PM
Level 4 fighter/XXX1/assassin 3 is a better plan, fighter gains nothing at level 5


Other problems with your build, a 5th lvl fighter has no chance of meeting the prereqs for being an assassin. His skill caps for x-class would be 4, not the 8 required for being an assassin.

Take a level of rogue.


Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.

Cieyrin
2010-08-16, 07:14 PM
There is nothing in Core that allows for reloading hand crossbows with a hand crossbow in each hand.

Perhaps not in Core but a Kimono of Storing (Oriental Adventures) allows the user to store or draw an item in each sleeve as a free action, so during the shooting, you put away one hand crossbow, reload, fire, and so on. It's kinda nifty, indeed, to see the flittering of crossbows in and out of extradimensional space.

If you're not adverse to homebrew, my Crossbow Slinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125255) PRC was designed specifically for opening up two-weapon fighting with crossbows. I could always use more playtest data and I enjoy seeing people make use of my 'brew, so feel free, if it strikes your fancy.

thubby
2010-08-16, 07:45 PM
for that matter, why not just get a thri-kreen? i think it could technically use 3 since you only need "a" free hand to reload any of them.
OH, and you could stick a buckler on it!

Orannis
2010-08-16, 10:22 PM
Wow, So much good advice to use. I admit that I hadn't considered the skill requirements when I was thinking this up so having only fighter would be stupid if I were trying for assassin. and I didn't read that line in the DMG where it said Melee weapon only for Death attack. I am thinking that this guy should be more about the in your face shooting then sneak attacking so I guess he will be straight fighter and then use sir Cieyrin's Homebrew for the rest. I am very intrigued by it and especially the capstone Barrage, this seems tailor made for what I need and I will definitely use it. Thanks!

Volos
2010-08-16, 11:34 PM
There is an assassin spell from spell compendium that allows you to do percision based damage at any range allowed by the weapon for one round, and casts as a swift action. I believe it is called sniper's shot, and it is a second level spell. That combinded with true strike would allow you to start sniping out the party members from 10 range increments away. (-20 to hit from range, +20 to hit from true strike) If you were to also have the appropiate feats from complete scoundrel, you could sacrafice sneak attack damage to do all sorts of nasty things to the players before they even could get near him, much less do anything.

ericgrau
2010-08-17, 12:59 AM
Unless you do something to otherwise account for it, your assassin will only be able to take a standard action in a surprise round so he certainly wont be getting 6 attacks.
Unless he beats even one of the PC's initiative, which isn't hard. Then he'll get 7 attacks... except I don't see how he's getting 6 to begin with.

You can't reload a crossbow without a free hand. So that makes duel wielding a bit difficult. You can, however, quickdraw new preloaded crossbows as you drop your original crossbows. Not any better than thrown weapons though since you're expending so many crossbows. Except you get greater range.

SwordChucks
2010-08-17, 01:20 AM
When you say the assassin is dropping the crossbows, do you mean on to the ground? With a length of rope they could be tied to him; just drop the x-bow and now it's dangling from his armor. He can reload them while hiding to give the encounter a guerilla combat/ambush feel without littering the battlefield with weapons.

Also consider something like a wand of grease, or a tanglefoot bag for a nonmagical escape button.

Diarmuid
2010-08-17, 08:55 AM
Unless he beats even one of the PC's initiative, which isn't hard. Then he'll get 7 attacks... except I don't see how he's getting 6 to begin with.

You can't reload a crossbow without a free hand. So that makes duel wielding a bit difficult. You can, however, quickdraw new preloaded crossbows as you drop your original crossbows. Not any better than thrown weapons though since you're expending so many crossbows. Except you get greater range.

Agreed that I have no idea how he's getting 6 attacks, but unless he beats all of the PC's initiative then he wont be sneak attacking all of them with those poisoned bolts.

I think we've all pretty much come to the conclusion that his idea might have merit, but his execution leaves much to be desired.

ericgrau
2010-08-17, 10:12 AM
Eh, but he could sneak attack 1 of them with all of the attacks, which is better strategy anyway. Or if your main goal is the poison anyway, you don't need the sneak attacks. Ya, his post does seem fuzzy.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-17, 10:20 AM
Sniping can be done for as long as you can keep on their tracks and remain hidden. Players have the odd tendency to stop looking for traps once enemies start shooting them. A few sneaky long-range shots and traps should keep them confused. You probably won't have much use for a hand crossbow until you actually need that free hand, so a heavy and a repeating can be used.

Don't bother keeping to a high combat pace with the crossbows. You'll have more success misdirecting and keeping the party away from the shooter.

Volos
2010-08-19, 08:14 PM
Set up a ton of wooden stands that could hold crossbows or ballistas, then mount them with said ranged weapons. Run a length of rope around the trigger mechanism for each of these, then cast Animate Rope and pull the rope tight around each tigger. You probably won't hit anyone, but it will cause mass confusion to have so many ranged attacks coming from so many directions. I've seen it done in a Dungeon Magazine adventure, so it is so not cheese.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-19, 08:46 PM
I would say Rogue 1\Fighter 4\Assassin 3

Thurbane
2010-08-20, 12:58 AM
If you can use 3rd party sources, the Crossbow Mastery feat is great for crossbows:

New Feat: CROSSBOW MASTERY
You can load crossbows with blinding speed and even fire them in melee with little fear of reprisal.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot
Benefit: The time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow for the type of crossbow you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: A fighter may select Crossbow Mastery as one of his fighter bonus feats. A ranger may select Crossbow Mastery in place of Manyshot for his improved combat style at 6th level.

http://paizo.com/download/pathfinder/PZO9000-2E.zip

Cieyrin
2010-08-20, 05:45 PM
If you can use 3rd party sources, the Crossbow Mastery feat is great for crossbows:

I like the feat when I saw it, though I wish it didn't require so many feats to use, as archery is pretty feat heavy as-is.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-20, 10:07 PM
I like the feat when I saw it, though I wish it didn't require so many feats to use, as archery is pretty feat heavy as-is.

aren't archers already expected to have those 3?

Tyndmyr
2010-08-20, 10:55 PM
Unless you do something to otherwise account for it, your assassin will only be able to take a standard action in a surprise round so he certainly wont be getting 6 attacks.

There is nothing in Core that allows for reloading hand crossbows with a hand crossbow in each hand.

See also, Invisible Servant. Mindless repetition....such as standing next to you and reloading the crossbow every time you pull the trigger. Get two, and rejoice.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 09:27 AM
Hum, the spare bones of a kobold sniper I toyed a while ago look like this: kobold sniper
rogue1: craven
fighter1: hand crossbow focus
ranger1: crossbow sniper, track (B)
ranger2: rapid shotWith party being level 8, I'd add two levels of Cobra Strike monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) and a level of shadowdancer (and maybe assassin if you like poison). For 6th level feat, Travel Devotion should work. The race is not important, but small ones tend to be better.

The end result is nigh-impossible to find sniper, though the damage (1d3 + 2d6 + 8 + 1/2 dex + possible poison with three attacks/round) isn't going to shock your players. Travel Devotion allows her to get a full attack and then hide again (non-action as a part of the movement).

If you want to be mean, toss a couple of those at them.

[Edit]: Meh, I always forget Shadowdancer requires combat reflexes. Take that instead of travel devotion and dip (cloistered) cleric instead of assassin to get it back.

Cieyrin
2010-08-22, 04:46 PM
aren't archers already expected to have those 3?

If you're a crossbow archer, it's a natural path but either you waste a feat on Rapid Shot waiting to get your Heavy or Great Crossbow to free reload capability or you use a light crossbow and the only thing you're getting is no AoOs for reloading, which isn't exactly Close Combat Shot. In the end, I'm not sure you really win either way than being a feat further behind other crossbow and thrown weapon archers, 2 behind bow archers.