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Frosty
2010-08-16, 01:56 PM
If you decide to jump onto someone from above, how do you calculate damage on that jump? Does it count as a charge attack? Does it matter than my Animal Growthed Dire Bear weighs approximately 32 tons (not an exaggeration at all, and this is not including the weight of gear on him) or would a housecat do as much much damage as the Dire Bear? This is in 3.5 by the way.

Keld Denar
2010-08-16, 02:01 PM
CWarrior has rules for this, under improvised falling objects. Its something rediculously poorly scaling like 5d6 for something thats 500 lbs, and then +1d6 for every 200 lbs after that. Look it up for more details.

valadil
2010-08-16, 02:16 PM
I make them do some sort of roll to aim. Something like a ranged touch attack, with a proficiency penalty If they hit, both parties take falling damage.

I've never had anything bigger than medium land on anything else. If that situation came up, I'd probably ignore weight and go by size. Like if the faller is a size step above the fallee, double the damage to the fallee. Or something like that.

Frosty
2010-08-16, 02:18 PM
CWarrior has rules for this, under improvised falling objects. Its something rediculously poorly scaling like 5d6 for something thats 500 lbs, and then +1d6 for every 200 lbs after that. Look it up for more details.

Away from C Warrior at the moment. Do you know if there's a cap though? Even if it's +1d6 every 200 lbs, 64,000 lbs is gonna hurt a LOT.

Yorrin
2010-08-16, 02:22 PM
Alternatively, use science!

I had a friend with an epic level druid who went around summoning whales in the air above things and just dropping them. This was before C.War, so we just calculated it via good ol' fashioned physics. I forget what the final conversion rate was, but he was rolling like 200d6 on a frequent basis.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-16, 02:24 PM
CWarrior has rules for this, under improvised falling objects. Its something rediculously poorly scaling like 5d6 for something thats 500 lbs, and then +1d6 for every 200 lbs after that. Look it up for more details.

That table is actually for improvised melee weapons. The rules for falling objects can be found in the DMG or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) (and the damage is capped at 20d6, the same as falling damage).

dsmiles
2010-08-16, 02:24 PM
Alternatively, use SCIENCE!

1. Fixed it for ya. :smallbiggrin:
2. 32 tons, you say? Reflex save fail = death, win = forced out of the dire bear's area. Simple.

Hirax
2010-08-16, 02:25 PM
Colossal dragons only do 4d8 damage if they crush you by landing on you. *shrug*

dsmiles
2010-08-16, 02:27 PM
Colossal dragons only do 4d8 damage if they crush you by landing on you. *shrug*

Not in my campaign worlds, they don't. (See above.) Physics tend to play a larger part in my campaigns, simply because all of the people I game with are engineers of some sort.

Erom
2010-08-16, 02:28 PM
Obligatory reference: Summon Bigger Fish!
http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0037.html

Also, to everyone doing it by weight - remember if you are trying to go the science route there are more components that just the falling objects weight. Air resistance, for one. Object composition, for another. A 200lb boulder falling on a person is going to do a LOT more damage to that person than another 200lb person falling on him. For this reason, damage should actually scale up slower than weight does.

Darrin
2010-08-16, 02:38 PM
That table is actually for improvised melee weapons. The rules for falling objects can be found in the DMG or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) (and the damage is capped at 20d6, the same as falling damage).

There's an argument that while the damage due to height caps at 20d6, the damage due to weight is uncapped. I'm not sure if it's an argument I'd really try to push for, though.

Obligatory link: 4500 lbs of stupid (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863510/4500_lbs._of_Stupid?pg=1).

Frosty
2010-08-16, 02:52 PM
Logically speaking, a 10 pound object falling terminal velocity on you will hit you with less force than a 64,000 pound object falling on you with terminal velocity. Even if the Dire Bear may have a slightly lesser terminal velocity, the 63,990 lbs difference in mass ought to mean something.

Erom
2010-08-16, 03:15 PM
Logically speaking, a 10 pound object falling terminal velocity on you will hit you with less force than a 64,000 pound object falling on you with terminal velocity. Even if the Dire Bear may have a slightly lesser terminal velocity, the 63,990 lbs difference in mass ought to mean something.

Yes, it definitely should, but now we're in catgirl territory. If you want to be "realistic" about it, the materials involved matter a huge amount though. Flesh at terminal velocity splatters pretty easily. For a real life example, roof-jump suicides rarely damage the pavement substantially on impact, while an appliance like a microwave, despite weighing less, will usually make quite a crater if tossed off a building.

Thefurmonger
2010-08-16, 03:16 PM
We had a lot of issues with this in the Arena, people getting as fat as they could useing the flaw and the vile defority feat and then useing the conj feature to port over people when they got close for stupid dammage.

The rules in the back of Com War are so bad for this its not even funny, no there is no cap, this is how hulking hurlers do 8974658736781236578d6 with a "Rock"

honestly the arena just banned it, there really is no way to use it that isnt just stupid.

If it were me i would use the Dragon crush as a base and go from there.

Frosty
2010-08-16, 03:25 PM
Yes, it definitely should, but now we're in catgirl territory. If you want to be "realistic" about it, the materials involved matter a huge amount though. Flesh at terminal velocity splatters pretty easily. For a real life example, roof-jump suicides rarely damage the pavement substantially on impact, while an appliance like a microwave, despite weighing less, will usually make quite a crater if tossed off a building.
Heh, and speaking of Catgirls, I might have to explain to the king why his castle's second-floor marble floor suddenly caved in as the Dire Bear falls to the first floor?

Obligatory reference: Summon Bigger Fish!
http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0037.html

Also, to everyone doing it by weight - remember if you are trying to go the science route there are more components that just the falling objects weight. Air resistance, for one. Object composition, for another. A 200lb boulder falling on a person is going to do a LOT more damage to that person than another 200lb person falling on him. For this reason, damage should actually scale up slower than weight does.
Better reference for SBF: http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0208.html

Curmudgeon
2010-08-16, 05:23 PM
I make them do some sort of roll to aim. Something like a ranged touch attack, with a proficiency penalty
The game does have actual rules to cover this, and it's nowhere as easy as a ranged touch attack.

Flying creatures can make controlled dive attacks. Without flight capability, an aimed body is treated as an improvised weapon. Apply a -4 nonproficiency penalty and a -2 inappropriate size penalty to your attack roll, as well as any range penalties. Improvised weapons have a 10' range increment and a maximum aimed range of 5 increments, so include a -2 range penalty for each 10' of distance you're dropping. If the target is more than 50' (5 range increments) below, you can't aim for them.

With an unaimed attack (necessary if the target is past 5 range increments) you simply hope to hit the target's square. The AC of a square is only 5. Roll your attack as above, including a -2 penalty for each 10' dropped (not stopping at 50' because you must land somewhere). A miss means you hit some other square; a hit means you land on the target square. They can avoid damage with a DC 15 Reflex save (see the rule in Heroes of Battle on page 68). If you hit their square and they fail their Reflex save, use the Improvised Weapon Damage table on page 159 of Complete Warrior to see how much you hurt them.

After a successful hit, if the target isn't dead or dying you must leave the square.
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. Since falling is movement that doesn't require a move action, you may make a 5' step to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity.

dsmiles
2010-08-16, 07:21 PM
Since falling is movement that doesn't require a move action, you may make a 5' step to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity.

Alternatively, if you fall on someone from a great enough height, you stand a pretty good chance of them hitting their head on the ground and knocking them out. Thus, helpless.

Frosty
2010-08-16, 07:39 PM
If you are big enough, you only one of the 4 or 9 squares you actually occupy needs to hit the right 5ft square. Aiming against a bigger target is even easier.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-16, 08:54 PM
If you are big enough, you only one of the 4 or 9 squares you actually occupy needs to hit the right 5ft square.
Ironically, it doesn't work that way in the D&D rules. If you miss your intended square, you don't land there (with any part of your body) ─ even if you're so big that that would entail a significant lateral shift.

Aiming against a bigger target is even easier.
Now that works. The standard miss rules specify using a d8 to pick one of the surrounding squares. If you're aiming at a Huge (15' x 15') creature's center square, a miss will still have you "accidentally" hit them. Though, even if you hit their center square, a successful Reflex save means you somehow didn't actually contact them, and still have to move away before your turn ends, with AoOs for leaving their squares. :smallconfused:

Frosty
2010-08-16, 09:02 PM
I would treat a a Huge creature jumping down on someone as a Splash weapon. Even if the target square is missed, there's chance for contact to happen. It's the most logically thing to do.

What happens if you don't move away by the end of the turn (or if you can't move away for some reason)?

Yorrin
2010-08-16, 09:15 PM
It's the most logically thing to do.

LOGIC!? HOW DARE YOU INVOKE LOGIC IN DND!!!1!1!!

Curmudgeon
2010-08-16, 10:27 PM
What happens if you don't move away by the end of the turn (or if you can't move away for some reason)?
The rules require that the only way two enemies of similar size can share a square is if one of them is helpless. If you don't leave, that's you. Can you say coup de grace?

ericgrau
2010-08-16, 11:16 PM
The dragon crush attack provides a good example:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Don't forget to add 1.5x your strength bonus if flying or jumping.

Rowsen
2010-08-16, 11:19 PM
This reminds me of a Warforged I had designed specifically to jump into the stratosphere and come down like a meteor. Hilarity ensued.

Frosty
2010-08-16, 11:45 PM
The rules require that the only way two enemies of similar size can share a square is if one of them is helpless. If you don't leave, that's you. Can you say coup de grace?

But let's say something prevents movement. Which of the two creatures sharing the same space is Helpless?

Curmudgeon
2010-08-17, 01:15 AM
But let's say something prevents movement. Which of the two creatures sharing the same space is Helpless?
The one that was required by the rules to leave ─ always the last to enter in a non-helpless state. So if somebody was unconscious and wakes up, they're required to exit. Normally, though, it's whoever entered a space that was already occupied: the last person in.

Cirrhosis
2010-08-18, 12:07 PM
You're essentially weaponizing falling damage. It would seem like the rules for falling damage would work well enough to determine damage done, but assume you're falling on a forgiving surface, so the first 10' are non-lethal. Both targets, of course, would take the same damage.

Determining whether a death-from-above attack would hit is another thing entirely. Curmudgeon's system seems like it best reflects the typical rule structure of 3.5, as cludgy and horrible as it is, but the same is true of grappling, and people do that by choice all the time.

ericgrau
2010-08-18, 12:58 PM
The dragon crush attack also handles the sharing a space issue by initiating a grapple. Ah the fun that can be had when you're super huge and you sit on your enemy.