Building the uber-mancer!

[Paganboy28]

I love the idea of a "Nagash" sort of character. Lord of the Undead sort of thing.

Rules are that it is gestalt, level 20.

I was thinking of a Dry Lich template with levels of Dread Necromancer, Cleric, and various undead PrC's...

How would you build him/she/it?

[hamishspence]

Given that Nagash is described in the Undead book as "animating a mighty Dragon to be his steed" the Zombie Dragon template from Draconomicon may be appropriate.

The clerical spell Desecrate, combined with an altar, allows you to animate creatures of twice the normal HD limit.

[Urpriest]

First, it's best to get Dry Lich via the Walker in the Wastes prestige class, since that (debatably) removes the level adjustment, and it's not a bad prestige class. That said, look at Dread Necro 20//Cleric 5/Walker in the Waste 10/Cleric +5 to start.

[NelKor]

This seems the appropriate place to suggest taking Death Master 20, At it's capstone you get the lich template, EVEN if you are undead ect, unlike the Dread Necro's which requires you to be humanoid. You can find Death Master in Dragon Compendium. Essentially you can be a Dry Lich Lich.

[Yorrin]

...it's best to get Dry Lich via the Walker in the Wastes prestige class, since that (debatably) removes the level adjustment...

I've never heard this before (for any similar class). I'm a big fan of WitW, but always saw the LA tacked on at the end as its major weakness. What are you using to justify this interpretation?

(PS- sorry for the minor thread derail:smallfrown:)

[Fouredged Sword]

I would consider takeing a PrC on the dread necro side after you take walker, becuse you have no need for the lich template if you already have a better one. I would ether ignore walker in the waste if you start at 20 and take another cleric PrC, or go with a 5 level PrC with dread necro after you get out of your other PrC.

I would go with dread necro first, becuse dry lich has some sharp drawbacks.

[Tinydwarfman]

I've never heard this before (for any similar class). I'm a big fan of WitW, but always saw the LA tacked on at the end as its major weakness. What are you using to justify this interpretation?

(PS- sorry for the minor thread derail:smallfrown:)

Wait, what? You never gain LA when a class gives you a template. How would that even work? :smallconfused:

[Yorrin]

Wait, what? You never gain LA when a class gives you a template. How would that even work? :smallconfused:

Some classes explicitly say "you gain any features of this template that this class hasn't already given you." (Dragon Devotee, for example.) WitW just says "you're a dry lich now" without giving you any previous lich-y abilities, so I had always assumed they stack (and since I'm usually the DM that's what my players think too).

[Tinydwarfman]

Some classes explicitly say "you gain any features of this template that this class hasn't already given you." (Dragon Devotee, for example.) WitW just says "you're a dry lich now" without giving you any previous lich-y abilities, so I had always assumed they stack (and since I'm usually the DM that's what my players think too).

Even more confused now. What stacks? And I'm still not sure as to how you even go about gaining 3 LA by taking a level in a class.

[Urpriest]

I've never heard this before (for any similar class). I'm a big fan of WitW, but always saw the LA tacked on at the end as its major weakness. What are you using to justify this interpretation?

(PS- sorry for the minor thread derail:smallfrown:)

It's a pretty common interpretation. Dragon Disciple is also usually viewed in this way, as are other transformative classes. That said, I can't seem to remember if there is an actual rule stating this to be the case. I find it a little odd that you've never encountered it before, though.

[Yorrin]

Even more confused now. What stacks? And I'm still not sure as to how you even go about gaining 3 LA by taking a level in a class.

Let's say you play a Human Cleric 5/WitW X
When X goes from 9 to 10 you go from ECL 14 to ECL 20 (15 class levels + 5 from Dry Lich). Which is why I once played a Cleric 5/WitW 9/PrC 6: to avoid LA.

[Tinydwarfman]

Ah, so you just basically leveled up 5 times for free. What exactly is the problem here? That the party gets less XP for a fight?

[Yorrin]

Ah, so you just basically leveled up 5 times for free. What exactly is the problem here? That the party gets less XP for a fight?

Balance with the party, the fact that I'd rather have 5lvls of class features (and caster level) than a +5LA, etc.

[FMArthur]

For precisely the same reason you decided that taking another level would underpower you and chose to skip it, it should be pretty obvious that the creators did not intend that any level adjustment be added. It doesn't even make sense for a character to increase in ECL like that and happens nowhere else without preposterous amounts of cheese. I don't know any existing class that gives you a template that would ordinarily impose a level adjustment to be particularly overpowered IMO despite the lack of LA.

[Urpriest]

In the 3.5 FAQ:


A dragon disciple ignores the normal level adjustment
applied from the half-dragon template; in effect, he’s already
“paid” for the template through the 10 levels of his prestige
class. This is true of any prestige class that applies a template
or otherwise changes the character’s type or subtype.

Walker in the Waste and Dragon Disciple are prestige classes that apply templates, so the above rule applies.

[Paganboy28]

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Nagash

Bit of background on Nagash for those not so informed.

WitW fits with the story, maybe if using shadow magic, then a shadow mage to represent the knowledge gleaned from the Dark Elf sorceress.

Cleric also fits as he started off as a priest. Just quickly PrC into something else so not too many dead levels (no pun intended).

But being able to raise LOTS of skele's at once seems to be a theme.

How could you represent his exposure to warpstone?

What stats would the magic items have?

[Yorrin]

@Urpriest: thankyou. That's what I needed to hear.

@Pagaanboy: again, sorry for the thread derail. Massive undead armies are very easy. Dread Necro at level 8 gets to add his Cha mod to the usual 4 per CL, and a Rod of Undead Mastery (MIC) doubles that. Which, depending on your ruling, is either 2*(4+Cha) or (2*4)+Cha per CL. Being full caster level on the other side of the gestalt ups this even further. So at level 20, with some generous but reasonable rulings, you're looking at anywhere from 440-660 HD worth of undead. That's a lot of skeles. Toss on Leadership and Undead Leadership feats and get plenty more undead servitors that way.

(The 440-660 numbers were assuming a Cha mod of 6 or 7. That can go up fairly quickly depending on if you're picking Cha or Wis as your primary stat.)

[Paganboy28]

Hmm....

Say 440HD of skele's. Thats alot of skele's but I guess not really that scary for a decent party of mid level adventurers.

I wonder how Nagash manages to control all those undead?

Would being an "uber-mancer" be worth it or is summoning vast hordes of the undead just tactically unsound and pointless.

Even if summoning a mass of skele's would look and sound cool.

[Wings of Peace]

Race: Necropolitan

Caster of Choice 10/Caster of Choice PRC 10//Generic Warrior 20

Tricks: Combine Lord of the Utter Cold with a persistent form of Cold immunity.

[Yorrin]

Hmm....

Say 440HD of skele's. Thats alot of skele's but I guess not really that scary for a decent party of mid level adventurers.

I wonder how Nagash manages to control all those undead?

Would being an "uber-mancer" be worth it or is summoning vast hordes of the undead just tactically unsound and pointless.

Even if summoning a mass of skele's would look and sound cool.

Vast hordes of skeles are tactically unsound. Vast hordes of Shadows, who have spawn, who in turn have spawn, etc. is very powerful, but no sane DM would ever let it pass for a PC. If you do get a DM who allows spawn for controlled undead, you can get the best of both worlds. 437 skeles and one shadow to start your spawn chain. Maybe a wraith too, for some variety. And Zombie Dragons are are a great addition to any army.

I've done lots of characters like this: as a DM. Undead armies can be a sufficient annoyance for PCs, and great fun to run, but I'd never let the players have any sort of practical army pre-epic, and I think most sane DMs would agree. So unless you're the DM here I'd advise against trying it as your primary shtick.

[Gavinfoxx]

A few REALLY POWERFUL, high hit dice undead >>>>>> a whole ton of 1hd skeletons.

[Yorrin]

A few REALLY POWERFUL, high hit dice undead >>>>>> a whole ton of 1hd skeletons.

This is a good point, and quite true, but I think the OP is going for the flavor of the massive army rather than just making the best undead servitors possible.

[Urpriest]

A few REALLY POWERFUL, high hit dice undead >>>>>> a whole ton of 1hd skeletons.

With one exception. If you can make a whole ton of very very small undead, preferably non-mindless, you're one step up to nanobots. (Nanobots builds rely on Aid Another abuse. Please use at your own risk. Books may be thrown.)

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, he should be aware that doing so is lowering his capabilities. As far as low hit dice undead, all you really need are enough to make one 'cohesive combat unit' which, if can be treated as a single monster with some kind of mob type template, as long as they are led appropriately...

Anyway, you guys HAVE read K's revised necromancer handbook, of course?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook

[mobdrazhar]

With one exception. If you can make a whole ton of very very small undead, preferably non-mindless, you're one step up to nanobots. (Nanobots builds rely on Aid Another abuse. Please use at your own risk. Books may be thrown.)

what's the nonobot build? can you link me to it?

[Tinydwarfman]

what's the nonobot build? can you link me to it?

Nanobots (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/Updated_Nanobots_Conquer_D38;D_%28AC,_Attack,_and_ Skill_Records%29) are not so much a single build, but a method of Aid Another abuse to become ridiculously good at everything. The guide is pretty amazing.

[Yorrin]

Well, he should be aware that doing so is lowering his capabilities. As far as low hit dice undead, all you really need are enough to make one 'cohesive combat unit' which, if can be treated as a single monster with some kind of mob type template, as long as they are led appropriately...

Anyway, you guys HAVE read K's revised necromancer handbook, of course?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook

Of course. And it's got some solid advice for beginning necromancers.

The mob template is actually a great idea to make the massive army of undead more practical. Still not as good as an elite squad, obviously, but it's flavorful.

[The Rabbler]

we're trying to keep this non-epic, right? I ask because it just struck me that Nagash could simply have undead leadership, epic leadership, and only personally control some choice creatures.

[Fortuna]

A character that predicts the future by awesomeness in the wrong language? Sounds cool.

[hamishspence]

we're trying to keep this non-epic, right? I ask because it just struck me that Nagash could simply have undead leadership, epic leadership, and only personally control some choice creatures.

The Leadership rules in Power of Faerun do boost non-epic Leadership a bit.

[Paganboy28]

Hmm so its an undead chain of command...

Nagash has direct control over other powerful undead who in turn raise their own mini-army and so the chain breaks down.

That could work.


As for the post about this being a PC. Well if we were to play an evil gestalt game then I would like to try out being an evil dry lich necromancer. Sounds funky and just the thought of masses of undead servitors always sounds good.... er evil.

[hamishspence]

Dry Lich is one of the variants that isn't required to be Evil as I recall- only non-good, so if you really wanted to, you could be a Neutral dry lich necromancer.

[Lord Loss]

For the undead, I'd use no more than 1/3 to 1/2 of the Hd on Skeles

also, is there a Lawful neutral, non Dry Lich, non Gestalt version of this? I'd like to make one for a campaign I sometimes play in.

[hamishspence]

Dread Necromancer can be played LN-
so can a cleric of Wee Jas.

Death Master (Dragon Compendium) does have to be Evil though.

[Lord Loss]

Dread Necromancer can be played LN-
so can a cleric of Wee Jas.

Death Master (Dragon Compendium) does have to be Evil though.

So is DN 20 a good play (as powerful as a somewhat optimized druid?)

[hamishspence]

Very little is as powerful as a somewhat optimized druid.

Dread Necromancer is probably on a par with things like warblades and swordsages, a nice class, but not game-breaking.

[The Rabbler]

Dread Necromancers are what you play when you feel like being really really good at making tons of undead, regardless of their strength. It is not the class you play when you want to crush encounters. unless you happen to be fighting a low-level army, of course.