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Edhelras
2010-08-16, 03:29 PM
... but are there any rules for adjuciating the effect of - not getting a good night's sleep?

I think it's only reasonable that you get tired (i.e. fatigued) if you go for 24 hrs without sleep. So I would presume that a character who doesn't get to sleep (elves and half-elves who don't get 4 hrs, other races who don't get 8 hrs) must beat a DC 15 Fortitude check (to which the Endurance feat provides +4) or else get fatigued until they can rest properly. With a +1 (or maybe even +2) to the DC for each 24 hrs without sleep.

I haven't found any rules mentioning this, but it makes sense to me.
Only, of course with all the gaming geeks (yeah, that's including me) around, it may be anathema to suggest that staying up all night can have any negative effects on you at all...

The Glyphstone
2010-08-16, 03:32 PM
Easily solved by brewing enough Elixirs of the Crimson Steer.

Lev
2010-08-16, 03:35 PM
There's both mental a physical exhaustion from not sleeping, you'd get both fatigue and shaken after the first few days, then move into exhausted and panicked, through the spectrum of course.

Rad
2010-08-16, 05:27 PM
There's both mental a physical exhaustion from not sleeping, you'd get both fatigue and shaken after the first few days, then move into exhausted and panicked, through the spectrum of course.

Where can we find the source?

Marnath
2010-08-16, 05:28 PM
Where can we find the source?

A medical website i should think. I approve the Fort check idea the OP has.

Denkal
2010-08-16, 05:34 PM
Maybe throw in a Fortitude save against falling asleep whenever their character stops to rest? Throwing a pack of Dire Wolf-riding Tucker's Kobolds at the party after their watchman falls asleep is a good way of making sure they let their characters rest. A little overkill, but you understand the idea.

I've had DMs do everything from saving throw vs. sleep, to nonlethal damage, to fatigued status.

Milskidasith
2010-08-16, 05:38 PM
Panicked from sleep deprivation would be weird, since that would involve running as fast as they possibly could from the source (which is, in this case, would be sleep).

Also, Tuckers Kobolds don't really work if they're sent out on mounts that negate their size advantage in terrain of the parties choosing. At that point, they're just dire wolves with easily picked off riders.

I support fatigued and exhausted, but those really aren't penalties to casters. In all honesty, just not dealing with it and saying that you had time to rest works out well enough.

Marnath
2010-08-16, 05:40 PM
Wait, fatigue and exhaustion don't penalize casters? I guess not being able to renew spells isn't a penalty in your mind?

*edit And what if the point is to be able to RP sleep deprivation? Ignoring it doesn't work in that case.

Subotei
2010-08-16, 05:40 PM
I'd be tempted to have them make increasingly difficult fort saves each hour (after the first 24 hours), and apply subdual damage every time they fail, until they eventually they pass out.

But then I'm cruel.

Milskidasith
2010-08-16, 05:48 PM
Wait, fatigue and exhaustion don't penalize casters? I guess not being able to renew spells isn't a penalty in your mind?

*edit And what if the point is to be able to RP sleep deprivation? Ignoring it doesn't work in that case.

Fatigued and Exhaustion don't prevent you from renewing spells. A lack of rest does, but the actual conditions do nothing. Not sleeping is a penalty because you don't get new spells, but actually being exhausted doesn't penalize your casting any more than normal.

If the point is to RP sleep deprivation, then the rules would be required, but I cannot see that being relevant in most all cases, and you could easily just RP it with pure fluff instead of designing a situation where you have to fight and sleep deprivation. It's just one of those things where realism isn't really required because it just adds complexity. Fatigue and exhaustion are fine if a character specifically doesn't sleep, but there is rarely going to be a situation where the game would benefit by making a character choose between sleeping and accomplishing their objective; in those situations, you may as well just say "A ninja appears, casts a spell, you become fatigued, and then the ninja disappears" because that's all that really happens.

Tetrasodium
2010-08-16, 05:48 PM
Speaking from experience, you start to hallucinate and hear things after the first day or two, often spots and sense of movement in the corner of your vision for the visual hallucination. Once you get over a certain hump where you are just running on adrenaline, you just sort of crash the moment you stop or space out randomly. Paranoia is common too ;).

Let them panic and make plans to deal with whatever is moving in the forest around them and see if the expended spells and such attract the attention of anything :). Of course it's not that tough to get an item that keeps you from needing to eat or sleep normally, check to see if they have anything like that or if they are a race that doesn't need sleep (i.e. warforged) first :)

Lord Vampyre
2010-08-16, 06:10 PM
Maybe throw in a Fortitude save against falling asleep whenever their character stops to rest? Throwing a pack of Dire Wolf-riding Tucker's Kobolds at the party after their watchman falls asleep is a good way of making sure they let their characters rest. A little overkill, but you understand the idea.

I've had DMs do everything from saving throw vs. sleep, to nonlethal damage, to fatigued status.

If you throw an encounter at them when their watchman falls asleep, you're more likely to make them paranoid. This paranoia causing them not to sleep even more.

Marnath
2010-08-16, 06:58 PM
I have an idea. Maybe make fatigue and exhaustion from sleep deprivation force a concentration check of escalating difficulty to cast the spells you still have available?

dspeyer
2010-08-16, 08:02 PM
Panicked from sleep deprivation would be weird, since that would involve running as fast as they possibly could from the source (which is, in this case, would be sleep).

That's how I react, but it isn't how everyone reacts. After 24 hours or so I go looking for a corner to cower in.

There should also be an int penalty.

Yorrin
2010-08-16, 09:06 PM
I believe there's rules in Heroes of Horror, but I can't find them just now. Something about insomnia.

EDIT: This is pretty close. HoH page 54. The cause is stated as having nightmares every night not letting you get enough sleep. Symptoms include inability to recover arcane spells, after a number of days equal to your con mod (minimum 1) you are fatigued constantly, two weeks later you're exhausted constantly, and every day after that you have to make a will save (DC = 10+1 per night over 2 weeks) or have your mental Taint score increase by 1.

awa
2010-08-16, 11:47 PM
i would imagine getting no sleep would be worse then the nightmare which are making it so you get less sleep.

Edhelras
2010-08-17, 05:23 AM
I'm a bit surprised that there aren't rules for not-getting-sleep. The situation occurs automatically if the party is to rest, with someone keeping watch. With a typical 4-char-party, two of which are spellcasters, the burden of staying awake falls on the two physical combatants; typically the Tank and the Thief. If both of them are elves or half-elves, the problem is nullified I guess, but else - the party will have to deal with the same problem as Roy:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0014.html

To me, this is a situation where lack-of-realism gets in the way of fun. I feel that the nightly resting period is one of the most exciting parts of the game, and like to think a lot about how to secure the camp, covering all approaches, rigging trip-wires if need be, whether or not to remove your armor during sleep, and such things. So it kinds of ruins my immersion if you can go night after night keeping watch, without needing time to recuperate, and without any effects of fatigue.

While, as I noted in my first post, it would make good sense that a person with high Fortitude would be able to go many hours and possibly nights without sleep - with the added benefit of the Endurance feat. Actually, that would be one of the benefits of being just that - a high-CON, high-Fort character.
Of course, one might possible infer that classes with high-Fort save progression are just that kind of persons: Those that can go night after night without sleep, as long as they don't need to sleep in order to regain spells. Still, I find it a bit cheesy. For instance - what's the point (the benefit) of playing an elf or half-elf, who only need 4 hrs of Reverie, if other races can stand watch all night with no consequences?

A middle road might be that classes with high-Fort progression can do with only 4 hrs sleep for at least a few nights, as long as their activity is restricted to passive guard duty or similar activities.

DemLep
2010-08-17, 05:31 AM
Not sure on the rules, but I think it would be hard to standardize. Myself on my normal schedule (No time restraints on when I need to wake up or be somewhere) stay awake for at least 30 hrs and then sleep 6 hrs. I actually can't sleep more than that and I'm fully rest and wide awake when I get up. On the other hand I have a friend that struggles with 18 hrs and will sleep more than 10 hrs. Would there be feats, traits, or maybe a skill that helps you stay awake longer with less or no penalty, and same for sleeping less?

Edhelras
2010-08-17, 06:02 AM
Since no formal rules seem to exist, this is my proposal for penalizing sleep deprivation:

1. Every living creature needs some sleep during (roughly) a 24 hr period, or else risks getting fatigued (as the condition)
- Elves and half-elves can do with only 2 hrs of reverie
- Other playable races need at least 4 hrs of sleep, roughly within a 24 hr period

2. If a creature doesn't get to sleep, it must (at the end of the 24 hr period) make a Fort check of DC 15 +2 per each previous 24-hr-period of sleep deprivation
- The Endurance feat provides a +4 to this Fort save
- Some spells and magic items may provide either protection to this effect, or a bonus on the Fort save

3. Creatures who fail their first save are fatigued (can't run or charge, -2 to STR and DEX, cannot do anything that would cause fatigue or you get exhausted, condition is removed if you get 8 hrs of complete rest)

4. Creatures who don't get to sleep, and who fail their save while fatigued, are exhausted (moves at half speed, -6 to STR and DEX, 1 hr of complete rest restores the creature to fatigued condition)

5. Creatures who fail their third save (while exhausted) start accumulating non-lethal damage equal to 1 HP per Hit dice per each following 24-hr-period

6. Regardless of previous saves, a character who doesn't get more than 1 hr sleep per 24-hr-period for 5 days is exhausted and starts accumulating non-lethal damage equal to 1 per Hit dice per following 24-hr-period
- Creatures with the Endurance feat can tolerate 2 more days of sleep deprivation before this effect occurs

7. As usual, creature whose non-lethal damage equals their current hit points are staggered and fall unconscious when the non-lethal damage exceeds their current hit points

8. Spell preparation
- arcane casters need 8 hrs of complete rest/nigh sleep, so they won't be able to memorize spells with sleep deprivation
- divine casters don't need to sleep to regain spells.
- all sleep deprived casters must make a Conc check with DC 15+spell level+1 per 24-hr-period of sleep deprivation, or the spell fizzles. For a fatigued caster, this increases to +2 per 24-hr period, and for an exhausted caster, the DC increases to +3 per 24-hr-period of sleep deprivation

9. Other -per day abilities are regained as usual, all though the penalties from fatigue or exhaustion migth still influence their effectiveness

Note: These rules might allow one or a few characters to stand watch for prolonged periods, in a fatigued state but still functional, especially if they get to sleep 1 hr each 24-hr-period. This might be particularly important for small parties that have suffered severe damage, and who are lacking magic and/or other means to speed up healing, but have to hide in some cave or other protected spot while the teammates are recovering.
Moreover, the rules might force the party to use non-efficient party members for watch duty, thus creating opportunities for surprise attacks during the night (which for me = fun).
However, in most instances, these rules wouldn't come into play, because usually there should be enough party members to take part in watch duty, and the rules only come into play if the sleep-per-night time is less than 4 hrs (2 hrs for elves and half-elves).
These rules would increase the fun and importance of having elven races in the party, just like Darkvision and conditions of complete darkness increases the utility of dwarves and half-orcs.
Personally, I don't think these rules would be too complex or ruin the fun, and in many cases the flow of the adventure could easily allow exposed party members to catch a nap at some point during the day, thus avoiding the checks and penalties.

Comments?

DemLep
2010-08-17, 06:09 AM
Cool. I'd like to try them out sometime to see how well they work in a real scenario.

Psyx
2010-08-17, 06:11 AM
"but those really aren't penalties to casters."

How about an increasing mis-cast chance?

Spellcasting involves memming spells, then performing the spell completion. It also requires an INT of 10+lvl. And we all know that your brain doesn't work in a straight line when you are tired.


I'd also penalise saves against -say- illusion and mind effects when tired, as we all know that the mind wanders and is quick to misinterpret stimuli.

Another thing that happens is micro-sleep. Your body starts to grab every chance it can to rest your brain, and you start to sleep for a second or two at a time - between blinks, staring off into the distance, et cetera.

I'm thinking that INT and WIS penalties would not be amiss.

Edhelras
2010-08-17, 06:41 AM
"but those really aren't penalties to casters."

How about an increasing mis-cast chance?

Spellcasting involves memming spells, then performing the spell completion. It also requires an INT of 10+lvl. And we all know that your brain doesn't work in a straight line when you are tired.


I'd also penalise saves against -say- illusion and mind effects when tired, as we all know that the mind wanders and is quick to misinterpret stimuli.

Another thing that happens is micro-sleep. Your body starts to grab every chance it can to rest your brain, and you start to sleep for a second or two at a time - between blinks, staring off into the distance, et cetera.

I'm thinking that INT and WIS penalties would not be amiss.

These are all good suggestions - though, honestly - I kind of feel that this is close to the point where realism comes in the way of fun and playability.

As for spell failure - I covered that in the (edited) version, it would be quite simple and logical, I think. Casters wouldn't be unable to cast, but it would be progressively harder for them as the days with sleep deprivation accumulates. Arcanists would eventually run out of spells and would be unable to renew their store.

INT and WIS penalties - all right, it might make sense. Even more sense would CHA penalties make, though - people tend to be less charming when they don't get enough sleep. For game mechanic purposes, I would hesitate to add this - as far as I can see, that would require the invention of a whole new set of conditions that are sleep-related. I would prefer relying on the existing conditions (fatigued and exhausted), for the sake of simplicity.
But of course, you could easily add the rule that when fatigue occurs as the consequence of sleep deprivation, the creature gets as well a -1 penalty to all the mental scores. And when exhaustion occurs because of sleep deprivation, that too causes a -2 penalty to all mental ability scores. (You might want to raise these penalties, to, like -2 and -4, or -2 and -6 (the latter would fit the extremely severe penalties that exhaustion deals to STR and DEX, and make things easier). But you should keep in mind that those who rely on their mental abilities (casters) are oftentimes those with the worst Fort saves and perhaps CON scores - so they would be more prone to be fatigued or exhausted from sleep deprivation in the first place. One should be cautious not to penalize them twice.

If you want, you could easily add that a fatigued (from lack of sleep) character needed to roll d% with some frequency to avoid irresistably falling a sleep (interestingly, an elf or half-elf would be immune to this effect...). But how often should you roll this? One per 6-hr-period for fatigued characters, once per hr for exhausted characters? Then again, how large a percentage for each roll? And what about modifying factors? Surely it's easier to fall asleep if you, say, stand watch duty in the middle of the night while deadly tired, than if you're up and about in full day, receiving lots of stimuli. I personally think it would be easiest to leave this to the discretion of the DM, if the players would accept it.

JeenLeen
2010-08-17, 07:43 AM
Speaking from experience, you start to hallucinate and hear things after the first day or two, often spots and sense of movement in the corner of your vision for the visual hallucination. Once you get over a certain hump where you are just running on adrenaline, you just sort of crash the moment you stop or space out randomly. Paranoia is common too ;).

Let them panic and make plans to deal with whatever is moving in the forest around them and see if the expended spells and such attract the attention of anything :). Of course it's not that tough to get an item that keeps you from needing to eat or sleep normally, check to see if they have anything like that or if they are a race that doesn't need sleep (i.e. warforged) first :)

This gave me an interesting idea for a mission. The team is put under a spell, but cannot realize it. The effects of the spell are that, as they continue to travel, they never sleep. They also do not realize they are not sleeping. Thus, they think all the hallucinations are real.

true_shinken
2010-08-17, 08:00 AM
Easily solved by brewing enough Elixirs of the Crimson Steer.

I see what you did there. I approve.

Marnath
2010-08-17, 08:58 PM
I believe there's rules in Heroes of Horror, but I can't find them just now. Something about insomnia.

EDIT: This is pretty close. HoH page 54. The cause is stated as having nightmares every night not letting you get enough sleep. Symptoms include inability to recover arcane spells, after a number of days equal to your con mod (minimum 1) you are fatigued constantly, two weeks later you're exhausted constantly, and every day after that you have to make a will save (DC = 10+1 per night over 2 weeks) or have your mental Taint score increase by 1.

This!! This is what i was thinking of back in the sleeping in armor vs "resting" thread! And you all thought i was crazy. :smalltongue: I knew i had read that somewhere. It makes a great sleep dep ruleset along with the escalating spell failure penalties suggested by me and expounded by people who have time to think about it. :smallsmile: