Arena Tournament, Round 94: Sarah vs. Symbol

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 94: Sarah vs. Symbol

Map:http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab330/ArenaManager/Arenas/03-river_arena.png
The Arena walls for this map are 30 ft high, with a Climb DC of 30.

XP Award: 300 XP
GP Award: 300 GP

Sarah (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=230219) - Candycorn
Symbol (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=5131) - RandomAction

All Combatants, please roll initiative and declare final purchases, if any

[candycorn]

Checking in.

Init: [roll0]

[RandomAction]

Nice to see you again Candycorn. Good luck and no purchases for Symbol.

Ini roll: [roll0]

[TheFallenOne]

you somehow attract commoners lately Random :smallbiggrin:

[candycorn]

Back atcha! :) Except I'm hoping that your luck's not TOO good. I am a commoner, after all. ^.^

I'll be starting in Y10, spear in hand. You?

[RandomAction]

Symbol begins in B-10 shield is readied.

[candycorn]

Mmk. Here goes.
(incidentally, my hands currently are furred, and my fingertips are sharpened into short claws) Spellcraft DC 20:Soulmeld: Rageclaws

Sarah, Round 1, First to act

Swift: Activate a devotion Animal Devotion - Hawk
Double Move: From Y10 to K10, Altitude +5
Free: Shift to 2 handed grip on Longspear.

Done.

Stats:Location: K10, Altitude +5
HP: 9/9
AC: 9
Effects Active: Rageclaws, Animal Devotion (Hawk): 1/10

[RandomAction]

Yeah, to many common folk running around here beating people up. You know the the nobility like to keep yous in place. :smallwink:

Symbol,R-1:
5' step to A-9 - free.
Start casting a spell - full round.
Spellcraft DC:16
Summon Monster @ CL4.

End turn.

Stats:
Location: A-9
Hp: 10/10
AC: 21 (8armor+1dex+2shield), T-11, F-20; DR: 2/-
Saves:F+5/R+2/W+4
Listen/Spot: +2/+2
Spells:
Lvl 0 - Resistance, Light, Detect Magic
Lvl 1 - Command, Summon Monster I*, Obscuring Mist

[candycorn]

Double Move to B10, Altitude +10.
Swift: Activate a devotion. Travel Devotion

Done.

Stats:Location: B10, Altitude +10
HP: 9/9
AC: 9
Effects Active: Rageclaws, Animal Devotion (Hawk): 2/10, Travel Devotion 1/10

[RandomAction]

Hmmmmm..

Symbol,R-2:
A Celestial Owl appears in B-11 alt +10.

-Symbol-
Order Owl to attack - free(?)
Cast a spell @ Sarah
Spellcraft DC:16Command
DC:13 Will or be commanded to land beside me your next turn.
Draw Morning Star - move.

-Celestial Owl-
Attack Sarah - standard.
Talons: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1] min 1 point.

End turn.

Stats:Location: A-9
Summon Monster I 4/4
Hp: 10/10
AC: 21 (8armor+1dex+2shield), T-11, F-20; DR: 2/-
Saves:F+5/R+2/W+4
Listen/Spot: +2/+2
Spells:
Lvl 0 - Resistance, Light, Detect Magic
Lvl 1 - Command, Summon Monster I*, Obscuring Mist

[TheFallenOne]

Random
please select one of the options given in the spell description. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm)


Sarah gets an AoO

[candycorn]

AoO:[roll0] for [roll1]

EDIT: What is the specific 1 word command you are giving? (level 1 cleric spells only have one option for commanding people)

[RandomAction]

I guess that choosing fall wouldn't make you come rushing to the ground, so I choose approach instead.

[candycorn]

Your placement for your owl is illegal.


Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Per text of conjuration spells, creatures may not appear floating in an empty space, and must appear on a surface that can support it.

[RandomAction]

Hm....I was assuming that a flying creature can appear flying in that area, but if I am wrong then he appears in B-13 ground level. My order for him to attack, at this distance, could turn into a charge and it adds a +2 to the attack.

However which way works for both Ref and you, please continue on....

[candycorn]

Actually, I believe the precedent for illegal actions is rewinding to the point of the illegal action. That would put it at the start of your turn, but we'd need a high ref to confirm whether that is the case, or whether the Summon spell would be lost due to selecting an illegal placement.

[candycorn]

In the interest of expediency, that's fine though.

My turn is to move directly towards you and nothing else?

5 foot step to B9, +5. I'm adjacent.

End turn.

I've failed to maintain forward momentum, and fall 5 feet into B9, landing prone. No damage sustained.

[Sallera]

I don't think you're prone, actually.

[candycorn]

In that case, I'm on the ground standing.

[RandomAction]

C'mon luck it's time for a change.

Symbol,R-3:

-Owl-
Move to B-10 +5'.
Attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

-Symbol-
Activate Law Devotion, bonus to attack - swift
Morning star smash Sarah - standard.
Attack: [roll2]
Damage: [roll3]
Shift devotion to AC - free.

End turn.

Stats:
Location: A-9
Summon Monster I 3/4
Law Devotion 10/10
Hp: 10/10
AC: 24 (8armor+1dex+2shield+3sacred), T-11, F-20; DR: 2/-
Saves:F+5/R+2/W+4
Listen/Spot: +2/+2
Spells:
Lvl 0 - Resistance, Light, Detect Magic
Lvl 1 - Command, Summon Monster I*, Obscuring Mist

[RandomAction]

In a prior match I was in, using the character Syberphyst, when my opponent failed to keep the forward speed, he fell prone. Don't know if this works with a distance of 5' or not.

[TheFallenOne]

I think the fall from B9+5 to B9 provokes an AoO from Symbol for leaving a threatened square. I'm not aware of any exception for involuntary movement like falling

[Sallera]

Symbol - I'd have to look it up, but I think that might have been an error on my part. I'm fairly sure there's nothing in the rules that says you end up prone when you fall - just when you fail to succeed enough at an untrained jump.

[candycorn]

AoO on the owl: [roll0] when it moves from 10 feet away.
Damage: [roll1]

Please note: The owl has 0' reach. It must enter my square to attack.


I think the fall from B9+5 to B9 provokes an AoO from Symbol for leaving a threatened square. I'm not aware of any exception for involuntary movement like falling

My opponent took his next turn without attempting an AoO or inquiring about it. There is nothing illegal about not taking an AoO, nor is there anything illegal prior to his owl's attack. Therefore, I would submit that even if falling does provoke, my opponent chose to forego his AoO.

[TheFallenOne]

I tend to say that AoOs have to be actively denied and that Refs point out if any are provoked in case a player misses it. That's how I handled it with a sling attack in spiked chain reach in Round 94(though the sling attack was declared illegal then anyway) and I'm pretty sure I've seen other High Refs point out AoOs before I became one

[candycorn]

I would say that it is the responsibility of the player to identify and exploit advantages in circumstances, rather than the responsibility of his opponent or a ref to inform him... Or at the very least, have the idea to ask about them.

I'd go so far as to say that's what separates an average combatant from a good one.

In this instance, a rewind would be needed to give the player the benefit of the AoO. I've only seen 2 reasons for rewinds. Illegal actions, and mutual consent of all players in the match to correct an oversight (such as a purchase error), with ref authorization.

I believe this would fall in the latter.

[RandomAction]

Candycorn - No insult intended here. I tend to judge combatants not on thier playing abilities, the familiarity on all the rules or on the designs of thier characters. I go by the way they act in/out side of matches and how they present themselves during a match. This way I can react, in a polite as possible manner, to those who come off as sounding arogant and thinking themselves superior to those they are playing against.

Normally I wait until a Ref declares that I am allowed an AoO, this lets me escape some of the confusion that can occur during combat. However, I have also seen and try to do so myself, players that declare that their opponents have an AoO granted to them when they use an action that provokes one. With the falling, I wasn't sure about getting an AoO and I was going to ask, but since I do not have to ask now. Symbol will take the AoO granted to him.

Sallera - would a falling charater have to make a dex/tumble check to remain standing after hitting the ground? It is hard to imagine someone falling, example-wise, say 30' and automatically land on thier feet to walk away. (If survive the fall damage.)

Symbol's AoO:
Attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

[Sallera]

It is indeed common to mention when you do something that provokes an AoO, and equally common for the refs to point out when something would have provoked one.

As for landing on your feet, I haven't found anything that says you fall prone; the RC makes no mention of it in its page on the subject, so presumably you stay standing. Just another of those silly-but-true aspects of the rules.

[candycorn]

I mentioned everything that I did. I also mentioned a fall.

However, I equate "you are granted an AoO, do you wish to take it" along the same lines as, "her entangle spell covers the area in the middle, do you wish to move north or south around it".

In other words, I consider it aid with strategy and tactics.

I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm not trying to act "superior" or "arrogant". I'm trying to argue against a rewind to give a player the benefit of an opportunity that they neglected to take advantage of, when no rule or precedent provides for it.

Nothing in the rules states that a player is required to take a provoked AoO.
Nothing in the rules or listed precedents states that a player is required to notify his opponent of a provoked AoO.
Nothing in the rules or listed precedents states that a ref is required to notify a player of an AoO they are entitled to.

Sallera states that such things are common, which points out that players and refs are allowed to. In the same manner, refs are allowed to do listen checks for players when the most they can get is a simple success. However, they are not required to. I can see a justified rewind for it if the notification is required. If it is optional, however, there's nothing improper about it not being done. And if there's nothing improper, then there is nothing that justifies a rewind.

So there were no lapses or illegal procedures to justify a rewind. Random stated that normally he waits until a ref declares that he has an AoO. If that was the case, then that's what he should have done (were he in doubt). Wait. He didn't. He went ahead and took a future action, without expressing any concern, or any indication that he was aware of the possibility.

If I made such an oversight, I wouldn't expect anyone to bend over backwards and rewind play to allow for it, unless there were an illegal action to justify it.

[RandomAction]

Candycorn - I understand you are not trying to be rude here and I am not even suggesting it. As Sallera stated, it is common for a ref to mention when someone is granted an AoO and I admit since I have been playing here, I have gotten used to the refs alerting me to such situations.

Since this situtation involves my turn, before you have even taken an action. You pointed out about my incorrect placement on my summons and during this adjustment of my turn, it has become known to me, thanks to the ref which normally handle these situations, that I have an AoO granted by an action that I was unsure about being granting one. I have decided to take it. This is not a lapse or resolution of an illegal move, but a clarification of a player's turn to avoid confusion and an order of a rewind.

[hustlertwo]

I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm not trying to act "superior" or "arrogant".



I'd go so far as to say that's what separates an average combatant from a good one.


I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm not trying to act "superior"


what separates an average combatant from a good one.


I'm not trying to act "superior"

Hmmm.....

In any case, has there been an official ruling on the matter of allowing the AoO, or are Sallera and Fallen both just expressing opinions?

[TheFallenOne]

Yes, consider it an official ruling at least on my part.


You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.

Candys interpretation seems to be that not noticing a provoked AoO and taking it is the same as not wanting to take it and I disagree. If an AoO is provoked, the player has to directly deny taking it. Not noticing it and not wanting to take it is another cup of tea(or two pair of shoes as we say in German. Random linguistic trvia of the day).

So AoO taken, hits for 10. Continue

[candycorn]

Hmmm.....

Those were in direct response to:

This way I can react, in a polite as possible manner, to those who come off as sounding arogant and thinking themselves superior to those they are playing against.
Hence, why "arrogant" and "superior" were quoted. Those statements were meant to be taken as "this is not how I am intending my speech, so please don't interpret it in that manner".

Regardless, my impression of the match thus far is:

I take a turn.
Opponent takes a turn.
I take a turn.
Opponent takes a turn:
during this turn:
(1) Illegal placement of summoned creature.
(2) Illegal Attack from a creature (outside its threatened range)
(3) Owl Fails to maintain minimum forward motion - Stall not announced.
I point out the first error, and request (in waiting room) for a ref to announce rewind).

Opponent corrects turn (no ref showed) Correction resulted in:Illegal attack by owl:
Average maneuverability fliers ascend at half speed. Half speed creatures cannot run or charge. Attack is announced as a charge.
(still not corrected)
I take a turn, provoke an AoO.

Opponent takes his next turn.
Illegal Actions: Opponent announces attack from outside of threatened range (Owl has 0' reach).
(and still not corrected)
Owl fails to maintain minimum forward motion, should stall. Not announced. (and still not corrected)

Refs show up.

None note the illegal actions performed by my opponent. They do, however, latch onto an AoO that he neglected to take.

Can you see why I would be a BIT frustrated here? My opponent has made more illegal actions than he's had turns. Not one call has been made against him, excepting ones that I have taken the time to research and point out. It's not like they're few in number. It's not like aerial maneuver rules haven't been used in this match (after all, I stalled). It's not like melee reach rules are obscure. It's not like half speed rules haven't been dealt with multiple times, due to all the attention called out by Entangle in recent rounds.

I just feel a bit singled out here.

[TheFallenOne]

Nevermind that a Ref(me) showed up before all this and pointed out you get an AoO for his casting, which is also consistent with the Arena policy on AoOs described by Sallera and me. Yeah, I really singled you out there, what was I thinking

on the one hand you say this


Random stated that normally he waits until a ref declares that he has an AoO. If that was the case, then that's what he should have done (were he in doubt). Wait. He didn't. He went ahead and took a future action, without expressing any concern, or any indication that he was aware of the possibility.

On the other hand, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9186260&postcount=17) you just go ahead with his correction, and now you start complaining? If you think there should be a rewind, don't play on and even say that the revision is fine. Instead, wait. You didn't.

and for the record, I'm very sceptical that up speed: half and impaired movement are the same.

half speed: When restricted to moving at half speed, count each square moved into as 2 squares, and every square of diagonal movement as 3 squares. If you are restricted to half speed, you can’t run or charge, nor can you take a 5-foot step.

that sounds like a condition affecting the character to me

[candycorn]

When a creature with average maneuverability ascends, it cannot move faster than half it's listed speed. That is a conditional restriction. (restriction being a limitation) Also, Half speed is not listed as a condition in the SRD or anywhere else.

During those conditions, it is restricted to no more than half-speed. At the very least, it would qualify as hampered movement, which also prevents charge attacks.

Some of the rules I've not pointed out, because I didn't feel they were a major issue. (the example of the one I didn't wait on -the charge- was a 1 damage hit from the owl that could have been done a different way, so I wasn't going to make a big stink.) Some, I didn't point out, because an earlier illegal action that I did point out invalidated them (the first illegal attack and the first stall).

In other words: I did decline them, because I didn't feel they were important. I just didn't SAY that I did. However, if the ref policy is to allow a player the active choice, as was said, then those were things that should have been brought up.

The rest are from the current turn. And, as I haven't taken a further action, I do believe I AM waiting.

Oversights happen. Nobody's perfect. However, when I see 6 play errors on one side, 1 policy violation on the other, 3 high refs, and only the policy violation is caught? One of the reasons I like Scorer so much is that when he does miss something, and I tell him, he doesn't take it personally. He handles the issue, and play proceeds.

The actions I pointed out are distinct rules violations. I'm not attacking you. I'm not criticizing you. I'm not even saying that the ruling catches (and misses) are deliberate. I'm asking you to look at things from my side, and SEE how it could be frustrating, and how it could APPEAR that way.

Now, if the AoO issue is resolved, could I get a rewind to the point of the owl's illegal attack (on my opponent's most recent action)?

[Sallera]

-.- This was bad enough the first time around, you lot. Do try not to start these ridiculous arguments again, or at least take them somewhere where they won't disrupt play.

Now then, to keep this as short as possible - yes, a flying creature with average maneuverability cannot charge upward. The reason for its movement at half speed is irrelevant. And yes, the owl stalls at the end of Symbol's R2 turn, falling to the ground and taking [roll0] damage. This has no effect on play, as Sarah's AoO had already been taken and her turn was dictated by the Command spell. Thus, the owl's actions should be revised for Symbol's R3 turn, but as Symbol's actions were legal, they stand as taken. Mm, wait, half speed movement upward. Since the charge was illegal, its normal movement to that point would have satisfied the speed requirement. The stall occurs at the end of Symbol's R3 turn instead, so no rewind is needed. Continue with Sarah's turn.

And finally, just pointing out that if both players agree that an action was illegal, such as the owl's initial placement, a ref is not generally needed to rewind as long as the error is noticed immediately.

[candycorn]

My action: Withdraw.

B9 > C10 (+5) > D10 (+10) > E9 (+10) > E8 (+10) > D7 (+10) > C7 (+10) > B7 (+10) > A8 (+10) > A9 (+10)

I have a total of 80 feet movement. This costs: 3 squares, 3 squares, 1 square, 1 square, 2 squares, 1 square, 1 square, 1 square, 1 square, for a total of 14 squares, or 70 feet of movement. B9 does not count as threatened for this movement.

Done.

Stats:Location: A9, Altitude +10
HP: -2/9 (Rageclaws)
AC: 9
Effects Active: Rageclaws, Animal Devotion (Hawk): 3/10, Travel Devotion 2/10

[RandomAction]

Candycorn - I apologize if you think my prior statement was meant as an insult against you. This was not intended. I was only trying to point out that the way someone words a statement, even text, can project the wrong image of the statement.

Okay the Owl crashes at the end of my R-3, is it alright if I roll the damage or is it a requirement of a ref? In case of myself here it is: [roll0]

Symbol/Owl turn to follow.

[Sallera]

The owl only falls 5ft, so it takes no damage.

[candycorn]

Candycorn - I apologize if you think my prior statement was meant as an insult against you. This was not intended. I was only trying to point out that the way someone words a statement, even text, can project the wrong image of the statement.
I wasn't sure precisely how you meant it, honestly. That's why I tried to clarify what I meant in a manner that was intended to defuse if necessary. It's ok, no harm.

Besides, no need to apologize for misunderstandings. You've made it clear that's not how you meant it, so we're cool.

[RandomAction]

Since the Owl's orders are to attack and any movement on it's part will bring an AoO upon it, I think Mr. Owl is gone this round.

Symbol,R-4:
-Owl-
Moves to A-9 or where-ever legit to do so, provoking an AoO.
Attack Sarah: [roll0] ; damage: [roll1] 1 point min.

-Symbol-
Total defense action.

End turn.

Stats:Location: A-9
Summon Monster I 2/4
Law Devotion 9/10
Hp: 10/10
AC: 28 (8armor+1dex+2shield+3sacred+4TD), T-11, F-20; DR: 2/-
Saves:F+5/R+2/W+4
Listen/Spot: +2/+2
Spells:
Lvl 0 - Resistance, Light, Detect Magic
Lvl 1 - Command, Summon Monster I*, Obscuring Mist

[candycorn]

AoO:[roll0] for [roll1]

[candycorn]

My turn:

Swift: Move.
Standard: Move.

Movement will be in a tight circle, ending back where I started.

Ready Action: Attack Symbol if he attempts any action or ends turn.

Done.

Stats: Location: A9, Altitude +10
HP: -2/9 (Rageclaws)
AC: 9
Effects Active: Rageclaws, Animal Devotion (Hawk): 4/10, Travel Devotion 3/10

[RandomAction]

And the Owl goes splat.

Time to turtle up!

Symbol,R-5:
5' step to A-8 - free.
Total defense, again.

End turn.

Stats:
Location: A-8
Law Devotion 8/10
Hp: 10/10
AC: 28 (8armor+1dex+2shield+3sacred+4TD), T-11, F-20; DR: 2/-
Saves:F+5/R+2/W+4
Listen/Spot: +2/+2
Spells:
Lvl 0 - Resistance, Light, Detect Magic
Lvl 1 - Command, Summon Monster I*, Obscuring Mist

[candycorn]

Your 5 foot step triggers my ready action.

Attack:[roll0] (high ground bonus)
Damage: [roll1]

EDIT: Note: You do not have total defense vs this, as it happened before your total defense action.

[RandomAction]

The attack drops the warforged and thankfully the match is over. Enjoy the remainder of the tourney.

[candycorn]

Sorry if the rules debating upstaged the match itself. :(

I'm gonna try to work on that.

[Sallera]

High Ref Sallera

Sarah claims victory and a side dish.