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View Full Version : Looking for help again. Pally, and a little more ranger.



Nick_mi
2010-08-16, 10:59 PM
Ok, I just inherited a paladin today from an older campaign and he has a +11 CHA modifier, so that's pretty huge. He also has a level in warblade for the stances and maneuvers. I am looking for a PrC to go into. Keep in mind he is neutral good, we're homebrewing that he doesn't have to be lawful. He currently has 5 levels in paladin and 1 level in warblade. He has a blink dog as his mount. So as you can see it's a pretty powerful all around adventure, so I am looking for something strong and that applies to my guy.

I am also looking for help with my ranger, who took the wild shaping route. I found master of many forms once, but now I can not find what book it is in, so I am looking for the book that that is in. I also have two feats that I can use currently at level 6 ranger. I am thinking about going warshaper, but I feel I want to get to wild shape(large creature) first. So any ideas or thoughts on that?

Nick_mi
2010-08-17, 01:11 AM
Bump.

Also, we're going to be facing a lot of demons so I picked up knight of chalice to start getting some sweet demon fighting abilities. I'm still willing to change if someone can show me a sweet PrC I just haven't seen yet.

Rad
2010-08-17, 07:42 AM
Hmmm... I take it you cannot trade that Warblade level for Crusader to go for Ruby Knight Vindicator? You might still take a crusader level though and then get in there.
The idea it to have Battle Blessing (C. Champion) and pair it with the ability to burn turn attempts for extra swift actions. With your Cha that's as many spells as you want in the first round.

What is that you want this character to do? Do you want to keep your mount and do mounted combat? If so Cavalier might be the one for you.

Nick_mi
2010-08-17, 12:31 PM
I'm not entirely sure. I'm looking for the strongest route to go. The spells sound decent as long as I get a decent spell pool. As it currently comes my lay on hands is 55 hp a day, and each level of paladin increases that by an additional 11, so if I'm looking for healing I can just go that route. Crusader is a no go because my barbarian who I am controlling in the same campaign is already a crusader and I don't want to overlap too much.

Also, still looking for sweet feets for my ranger.

Someone last night mentioned something a long the lines of being able to go human with master of many forms, then as human you get your racial feat which you can make frozen wildshape, and then go cryohydra and that apparently wrecks small mobs of monsters, but I need to look into it more.

Nick_mi
2010-08-17, 02:23 PM
Man everyone was jumping up and down to help me with a barb. Ranger brought in a few peeps, and the poor ole paladin. Everyone seems to hate him t.t

Draz74
2010-08-17, 02:43 PM
Seems to me that more Warblade levels is stronger than just about any PrC.

Also, Master of Many Forms is in Complete Adventurer IIRC. And yes, Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper is a great plan.

Keld Denar
2010-08-17, 02:55 PM
A level in Nature's Warrior is also great for a Ranger/MoMF, as the Serpent's Coil ability gives you Constrict. Lots of things you WS into will be good grapplers, and Constrict really amps your damage up. NW is in Complete Warrior.

Here is my Pally/RKV build from a while back. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70149) I don't think you'll really be stepping on the Barb's toes if you dabble a bit in Crusader then head into RKV any more than a Bard would step on a Wizard's toes if they both learned the Grease spell.

Nick_mi
2010-08-17, 03:11 PM
Ok I'll have to take a look at that when I get home from work. Also, what does that acryonym stand for?

The reason I don't want to continue down the warblade path is because while he is rocking a +2 wis and a +11 cha, he only has a 10 for a +0 in int and all of those abilities warblade gets do nothing then.

What would the potential/possabilities of multiclassing into a cleric be?

Keld Denar
2010-08-17, 03:27 PM
RKV is Ruby Knight Vindicator. Its a PrC that advances both Cleric casting and Devoted Spirit/Shadow Hand maneuvers on whatever chassis you had before taking RKV.

I'd shy away from starting cleric casting this late. You are already down 6 levels of non-cleric. If you really want casting, you might be interested in something like Divine Crusader, a PrC in CDivine. It gives you 9th level casting in 10 levels, requires level 7 to get into (due to +7 BAB). The only drawbacks are that it doesn't give you very many spells per day, is Wisdom based, and your spell list consists of only 1 domain. That means you have exactly 9 spells known, unless you pick up a 2nd domain somehow (lots of cleric PrCs like Divine Oracle, Church Inquisitor, Contemplative, Ordained Champion, Radiant Servant, etc give you them).

Honestly, I'd keep with my earlier suggestion. Swap the Warblade for Crusader if you can, or just add another level of Crusader, and then head into Ruby Knight Vindicator. RKV allows you to do fun things with Turn Undead attempts, of which you'll have a TON, due to your +11 Cha mod. Its excellent.

An alternative, if you want a bit of arcane might, would be dipping either Sorcerer or Suel Arcanamach (CArcane), then heading into a Gishy PrC like Abjurant Champion, Spellsword, Eldrich Knight, Sacred Exorcist, or Divine Oracle. Suel Arcanamach might take a bit of retooling and some alt class features to qualify for (like Mystic Fire Paladin sub levels to get access to Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana, and the Cityscape to swap Ride for Tumble. Both Sorcerer and Suel Aracanamach are Cha based casters, so you'll be able to bring your massive Cha score to bear that way. There are lots of good low level buffs, especially in the PHB, SpC, PHBII, and CMage, that you can use to really amp up your power.

Nick_mi
2010-08-18, 12:22 AM
Ok, so after doign some reading and research I'm coming to the conclusion that RKV is good because:
A: You get more stances and maneuvers
B: you get pally spells

I compared him to knight of the chalice and I've come to the decision that
I will be fighting legions of demons soon. We're essentially going to hell so all of the demon damage will essentially negate out stances and maneuvers, and he has his own spells that are equivilant to the paladins. The base attack and saves are the same except will and fort are switched, but it's really not a big deal since I get +11 to all my saves + modifiers.

The final thing that made me decide against it, besides the fact that it would be a pain in the as and probably unsuccesfull attempt to get my DM to agree to the switch, but on top of that, RKV only has an 8 HP dice, compared to the knights 10.

So unless you can tell me what I'm missing, or if anyone else can suggest a better class, I'm probably going to go with that.

Also STILL NEED FEAT HELP WITH MY RANGER PEOPLE. Please, I'm really in need of help on this one. :P

Nick_mi
2010-08-18, 11:28 AM
{Scrubbed}

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 11:54 AM
I'd build your ranger like this:

Ranger5/MoMF2/Warshaper4/MoMF+4/NaturesWarrior1/MoMF+4

Take IUAS at 1, Imp Grapple at 3, Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) at 6, then something like Steadfast Determination (PHBII) at 9, and whatever you want past that. Maybe Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species) to get a breath weapon or something, or a feat like Frozen Wildshape (Frostburn) to get access to Magical Beast forms like CRYOHYDRA. You already get Aberrant forms from MoMF, so you don't need Aberrant Wildshape (Lords of Madness).

Alternatively, play Fistbear Bearfist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107). MOAR BEAR THAN YOUR BUILD HAS ROOM FOR!

And RKV is stronger than KotC...much much much stronger. The 7th level ability, Divine Impetus, even if limited to once per round (as written, it has no limit, which is silly), is one of the strongest class abilities ever printed. Extra swift actions are AMAZING, especially for casting swift or quickened spells, which all of your Pally spells will be thanks to Battle Blessing (CChamp). You'll be ok with KotC, but you'd be MUCH better with RKV.

Nick_mi
2010-08-18, 11:59 AM
Ok thanks I'll look into those feats. If he went bear it really would be more bear then I could handle because his traveling companion(one of the other chracters I control) is a barbarian going into that route next level in fact.

Also, can you point it out to me. I'm just not getting it as far as why it's better.

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 12:16 PM
Why what is better? Fistbear? Fistbear is awesome because nearly every aspect of the build is dependant on Str or Con, both of which are pumped rediculously high through the use of special abilities like Bear Rage and Warshaper. AC is based on Con, Fort and Will saves are based on Con, HP are based on Con, attack and damage are based on Str. The only thing that isn't Con or Str dependant is Ref save, which arguably IS Con dependant given that most things with a Ref save deal HP damage, which this build has TONS of.

As far as KotC vs RKV? KotC fails rediculously at its main ability, Censur Demons. The ability is way to weak to even have a chance to work against any CR appropriate outsider. The rest of the abilities are all pretty minor, and by the time your KotC casting finally catches up with the Pally casting you'll already have, you'll pretty much have 4th level spells anyway, so casting isn't a huge advantage.

RKV, on the other hand, gets you Shadow Hand manevuers, which are HUGE for combat mobility, particularly Shadow Blink. Divine Impetus is also HUGE. Combine Divine Impetus with Travel Devotion, and you can essentially make a double move each turn and still full attack! Or you can move once, cast a swift action spell, and then full attack (including charge attacks). Or you can cast 2 spells in a round, speeding up buffage so you can commence with the righteous buttkickage. Its just better.

Rad
2010-08-18, 01:04 PM
I'll make my last case.
RKV is good because it gives you extra actions. Paladin spells are for buffing, not healing. I know you have lay on hands for that. They are particularly good because they can all become swift, and then you can cast as many as you can by burning turn attempts.
d8 instead of d10? On average that is just 10HP less. It's not that much IMHO. Less than what you would get from Improved Toughness, a notoriously subpar feat choice.
Finally, the Paladin gets a few useful spells from the spell compendium; the knight of the Chalice doesn't seem to. The dismissal effect won't work in hell since they'd be native in the plane you're going to be fighting them. The immunities are nice. In general, unless the whole campaign is going to be in hell, your abilities might be useless once the hell arc is over.
As Keld said, I don't think you'd have much overlap with the barbarian.

That said... do as you want!

Nick_mi
2010-08-18, 01:37 PM
Ok, I'll see if I can convince my DM to allow it.

Nick_mi
2010-08-18, 01:56 PM
What does IAS do for my barbarian while in bear form? I assume claws are considered an unarmed strike? So would I normally give an AOO when I attack because that doesn't seem right, and it seems like claws should deal lethal damage, so I fail to see what it is really giving me, but I'm sure there is something I'm missing.

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 01:59 PM
Its there as a prereq for Improved Grapple. Saddly, grappling is not very well supported for monsters, even though they are the best at it. Thus, in order to take Imp Grapple, you have to have Imp UAS.

Grappling is a pretty brutal way of disabling a single foe. It does leave you kinda vulnerable to foes outside of the grapple, but if your party is good at croud control, or you are fighting a single foe, its a strong option.

Many large and huge creatures have OBSCENE grapple scores.

Draz74
2010-08-18, 03:25 PM
Grappling is a pretty brutal way of disabling a single foe. It does leave you kinda vulnerable to foes outside of the grapple, but if your party is good at croud control, or you are fighting a single foe, its a strong option.

As long as Freedom of Movement doesn't enter the picture, of course.