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View Full Version : Unreliable magic as nerf



Mastikator
2010-08-17, 01:20 AM
One of the major complaints of the D&D 3.5e system is that full casters are too powerful compared to everyone else. Another complaint is that a logical consequence of magic being reliable and efficient is magitech. So why not take out two problems in one fell swoop? Make magic unreliable, and make powerful magic outright dangerous (to the caster).

This is what I propose, anytime someone casts a spell they must make a spellcraft check DC equal to 10+((spell level-1^2)/2), see chart below.
If the caster fails to meet the DC the spell simply fizzles and is lost. If the caster fails by more than 5 the spell explodes, dealing 1d6/spell level unblockable force damage to the caster. If the caster fails by more than 10, the caster also takes 1d6 ability damage in their primary casting ability (can't be repaired with magic and takes twice as long to heal naturally).

1, 9
2, 11
3, 12
4, 15
5, 18
6, 23
7, 28
8, 35
9, 42

Low level magic is still relatively easy to use, at medium level it's no longer fully reliable and at high level it can be outright dangerous, even fatal.

For one, this forces all casters to invest as much as they can into spellcraft (meaning they may have to invest less in something else).
Secondly, it means that a caster must weigh the risk of using magic vs the risk of not using magic
Thirdly, it means that the more powerful the spell, the more dangerous it is to use and the more feared it should be.


I think this makes sense both from a gamist (balance) perspective, and from a roleplay perspective (playing with magic = playing with fire).

Certain types of magic (or schools) could have increased or decreased DC, such as healing being more safe than creation of undead or summoning of demons.


What does people think? Does it ruin spellcasting? Is it the wrong approach, or are the details wrong but the principle correct? Does it add a new dimension that balances magic vs mundane?

jiriku
2010-08-17, 01:29 AM
This is commonly proposed, along with its close sibling concept, Magic is Slow to Cast. Neither approach is usually well-received. The consensus is usually that the power gap is so large that making magic slightly unreliable or a little slower doesn't solve the problem, and making magic extremely unreliable or massively slower makes casters unplayable.

The real solution to the problem is for spells to just flatly be less powerful, for mundanes to get more powerful options, or some combination of the two. However, making such a retrofit to 3.5 would be a) a vast, difficult, time-consuming project, and b) such a big change that the game probably wouldn't really feel like 3.5 any more and c) a vast, difficult, time-consuming project.

One of the best solutions I've seen proposed is actually rather straightforward: provide massive boosts to non-casting classes and martial feats, and simultaneously eliminate all spells of 7th level and higher, then stretch out casting progressions so that 6th level is the new 9th level.

Another idea with excellent potential is to ban the vanilla-flavored caster classes that can potentially learn to do anything and everything in the game and replace them with a series of more specialized casters (both published and homebrew) that can only fill specific niches, while simultaneously nerfing or banning the small handful of spells that are egregiously broken.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-17, 01:32 AM
Also, more rolling slows gaming down.

Fortuna
2010-08-17, 01:33 AM
This is commonly proposed, along with its close sibling concept, Magic is Slow to Cast. Neither approach is usually well-received. The consensus is usually that the power gap is so large that making magic slightly unreliable or a little slower doesn't solve the problem, and making magic extremely unreliable or massively slower makes casters unplayable.

The real solution to the problem is for spells to just flatly be less powerful, for mundanes to get more powerful options, or and some combination of the two. However, making such a retrofit to 3.5 would be a) a vast, difficult, time-consuming project, and b) such a big change that the game probably wouldn't really feel like 3.5 any more and c) a vast, difficult, time-consuming project.

Fixed that for you.

But seriously, the entire concept of unreliable death-lazor or whatever has the problem of unplayability, and the problem of swinginess, AND the problem that many of the most ridiculous builds can ignore it (Genesis, say, is mostly unaffected).

TabletopNuke
2010-08-17, 02:09 AM
I've been considering this for my own setting but I had the same concerns listed above. I wouldn't want to remove 7-9th level spells anyway. There's too much fun to be had with them.

What about UA's sanity system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm)? Adding the house rule of sanity loss risks for spellcasting? (Druids wouldn't be hit nearly as hard as the others)

Sliver
2010-08-17, 02:19 AM
Making wizards work like truenamers doesn't solve the problem, just makes wizards less fun and playable.

Milskidasith
2010-08-17, 02:27 AM
Side note: The listed DCs are essentially 100% hits at all times. They also increase in a weird way; 9-2-1-3-3-5-5-7-7. Mostly the 2-1 increase part.

Anyway, the concept of "magic is too unreliable to actually do anything" is one of the worst way to nerf casters; it doesn't get rid of their power, (especially easy skill checks), and if it does, it's such a huge nerf they are unplayable.

DemLep
2010-08-17, 04:56 AM
Wait I thought that was the whole point of High level casters. At low levels they suck. They are in my experience more often a burden on the party. One that's well worth it when they have the right spell for the situation though. But at high levels they the kid who was bullied all his life with sudden unimaginable power. You stand back and let them do what they do best, rage.

I might be wrong, but I could have sworn I read once that Epic spells have dangerous recoil (Though I can't find it in my ELH). You might look at that.

Fortuna
2010-08-17, 05:08 AM
Epic spells are either unusable or broken. Either you spend weeks and millions of gp to duplicate meteor swarm, or you mitigate the DC to 0, snap your fingers to produce the scroll on a piece of paper, and blow up the universe. Either way, epic doesn't work.

Boci
2010-08-17, 05:09 AM
I might be wrong, but I could have sworn I read once that Epic spells have dangerous recoil (Though I can't find it in my ELH). You might look at that.

You could mitigate the spellcraft DC by taking backlash damage. Very powerful when combined with a method for getting massives amounts of temporary hp (like another epic spell).

lesser_minion
2010-08-17, 05:12 AM
Wait I thought that was the whole point of High level casters. At low levels they suck. They are in my experience more often a burden on the party. One that's well worth it when they have the right spell for the situation though. But at high levels they the kid who was bullied all his life with sudden unimaginable power. You stand back and let them do what they do best, rage.

Casters are easily able to pull their weight by 3rd or 4th level, if not earlier, even if it's not until 10th level or so that they're obviously pulling ahead.

Also, people don't play from 1st to 20th, so "suck now, rock later" and its inverse invariably lead to either "don't suck, just rock" or, worse, "don't rock, just suck".

rakkoon
2010-08-17, 05:16 AM
I like the wild magic variant, each spell has 50% change of not succeeding.
Instead another spell in your repertoire is fired with the same target.
Was fun roleplaying :smallcool:

DemLep
2010-08-17, 05:20 AM
Broken is very opinionated. Anything can be broken if you don't know as the DM how to handle it. If you do then you plan ahead things that are equally "broken" thus eliminating the brokenness.


You could mitigate the spellcraft DC by taking backlash damage. Very powerful when combined with a method for getting massives amounts of temporary hp (like another epic spell).

This makes sense to me.


Casters are easily able to pull their weight by 3rd or 4th level, if not earlier, even if it's not until 10th level or so that they're obviously pulling ahead.

Also, people don't play from 1st to 20th, so "suck now, rock later" and its inverse invariably lead to either "don't suck, just rock" or, worse, "don't rock, just suck".

It's not mine or anyone else', except maybe your DM's, fault how long you do or do not play a character.

As for the mage pulling ahead by 10th level it depends on builds. I've see awesome and terrible builds for every class at a wide range of levels.

EDIT: Making a post provokes an AoO. Can't believe I forgot that.

HunterOfJello
2010-08-17, 06:12 AM
I'd love to see a level 1 wizard miscast a spell and be knocked unconscious because he took 6 damage when he only had 4 hp.

DemLep
2010-08-17, 06:30 AM
And cue the rest of the party laughing, bitching, or both.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-17, 07:04 AM
1, 9
2, 11
3, 12
4, 15
5, 18
6, 23
7, 28
8, 35
9, 42

Let's see... a Wizard, max ranks in Spellcraft:
1st: 1st level, 4 ranks, needs a +4 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +1 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).
2nd: 3rd level, 6 ranks, needs a +4 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +1 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).
3rd: 5th level, 8 ranks, needs a +3 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +0 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).
4th: 7th level, 10 ranks, needs a +4 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +1 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).
5th: 9th level, 12 ranks, needs a +5 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +2 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).
6th: 11th level, 14 ranks, needs a +8 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +5 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).
7th: 13th level, 16 ranks, needs a +11 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +8 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).
8th: 15th level, 18 ranks, needs a +16 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +13 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).
9th: 17th level, 20 ranks, needs a +21 Int mod to succeed on a 1 (or a +18 Int Mod and Skill Focus(Spellcraft)).

So up until about level 11 or 13, Wizards are pretty much unaffected. Meanwhile, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Druids, not having their primary casting stat be Int, have problems from level 1.

Uh, no, not a particularly useful nerf, as listed.

Psyx
2010-08-17, 08:15 AM
^And that's assuming that he isn't a focused specialist or going for Archmage, and has skill focus; nor that he's gone and bought a masterwork tool, or similar to aid the situation.


It's a nice idea, but the difficulty simply isn't high enough.

Just tossing this out from the top of my head; but how about each spell costing you a number of HP equal to its level to cast. These cannot be cured, except by a night of rest (which cures all of them). Thus the wizard can't ever use his full daily load-out, and does become more physically exhausted and weak as he blazes through spells.


"just makes wizards less fun and playable."

It makes them 'less fun' because it nerfs them. Taking power from any class or indeed anything in life makes it 'less fun'. 155mph Autobahn speed limits would make life less fun, but that's not to say it's a bad idea.

It doesn't make them at all less playable, though. It's just that your paradigm has been set by existing standards. Lots of other systems have slow/reliable/weak magic, and mages are perfectly playable, and often still very powerful.

ExtravagantEvil
2010-08-17, 08:33 AM
Well, I'm not sure if this will help you at all, but I am planning on doing some interesting things to nerf some casting classes:
Wizards go insane as they cast
If Sorcerers don't cast much during the day, they explode (taking out merchant districts at high levels)
Clerics get ever stricter codes, rituals, and more errands they need to do for the god in question.

DemLep
2010-08-17, 08:37 AM
Just tossing this out from the top of my head; but how about each spell costing you a number of HP equal to its level to cast. These cannot be cured, except by a night of rest (which cures all of them). Thus the wizard can't ever use his full daily load-out, and does become more physically exhausted and weak as he blazes through spells.


Why would you do something like. If the goal is to lower there number of spells then do that, but why deal them incurable too? Now your just ganking the pour guy.

EDIT: Just make them like Discworld wizards.

Quietus
2010-08-17, 08:46 AM
Just tossing this out from the top of my head; but how about each spell costing you a number of HP equal to its level to cast. These cannot be cured, except by a night of rest (which cures all of them). Thus the wizard can't ever use his full daily load-out, and does become more physically exhausted and weak as he blazes through spells.

If you're going to do this, then there's variants that handle that, fatiguing the wizard as he goes through his spell column. Alternatively, if you REALLY want to do this, then you could give the casters a bigger hit die (say, a d8 for Wizards, d10/12 for sorcerers), and let them cast from their prepared spells as much as they like, taking "spell damage" that can't be mitigated and can only be healed via resting - and is fully healed every time you rest. But that's likely not any better, and kinda ... silly, as well. Fatigued casting is a better option than either of our off-the-cuff homebrews, I think.

DemLep
2010-08-17, 08:49 AM
If you're going to do this, then there's variants that handle that, fatiguing the wizard as he goes through his spell column. Alternatively, if you REALLY want to do this, then you could give the casters a bigger hit die (say, a d8 for Wizards, d10/12 for sorcerers), and let them cast from their prepared spells as much as they like, taking "spell damage" that can't be mitigated and can only be healed via resting - and is fully healed every time you rest. But that's likely not any better, and kinda ... silly, as well. Fatigued casting is a better option than either of our off-the-cuff homebrews, I think.

It would work better. Wizard would just sleep every 4 hours.

EDIT: Now they just need the metamagic feat for casting in their sleep.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-17, 09:00 AM
1, 9
2, 11
3, 12
4, 15
5, 18
6, 23
7, 28
8, 35
9, 42

Low level magic is still relatively easy to use, at medium level it's no longer fully reliable and at high level it can be outright dangerous, even fatal.

Er, no. Skill checks are remarkably easy to optimize. Last time I played an incantatrix(who uses spellcraft checks), I could automatically make checks in the mid 50s by level 12, and I didn't even abuse the skill boosting magic item rules.


For one, this forces all casters to invest as much as they can into spellcraft (meaning they may have to invest less in something else).

There are primary casters that don't invest in spellcraft? Why? Besides, it's an int based stat. So, wizards and such have a significant bonus. This mostly hurts lower tiered casters. Those with MAD, poor spellcasting stats, lack of skill points, etc.


Secondly, it means that a caster must weigh the risk of using magic vs the risk of not using magic

Nope. Either they will be able to make the checks, in which case, they'll use magic all the time, or they wont, in which case, nobody will play casters.


Thirdly, it means that the more powerful the spell, the more dangerous it is to use and the more feared it should be.

Not really. d6/spell level isn't that bad. d6/caster level is much more lethal, and that's merely a blasting spell aimed at a single enemy. Out of combat spells are generally not dangerous, as out of combat healing is much more available than in combat healing.

If you need further proof of why skill based casting is a terrible idea, I suggest you look at the truenamer.

Cyrion
2010-08-17, 09:41 AM
If you're after making magic unreliable for its entertainment value, just make everyone a wild mage. It's not really a nerf because you have the possibility of getting something better. For many, though, it's not even entertaining. Just annoying.

Otherwise, just design better encounters. Customize monsters, have mysterious places and effects, use terrain and situational challenges. In my experience, there are very few parties that can't be appropriately challenged if you're creative.

Telonius
2010-08-17, 10:57 AM
Why would you do something like. If the goal is to lower there number of spells then do that, but why deal them incurable too? Now your just ganking the pour guy.

EDIT: Just make them like Discworld wizards.

Sounds almost like what they tried to do with the Hellfire Warlock (before they realized you could bind Naberius to skirt the requirement). It's interesting from a fluff perspective - you have the idea of the wizard using his own life force to power his spells. I really like that. But unless you make the damage somehow incurable - which would be a totally jerk thing to do - there are just too many ways to get around the mechanical cost.

jiriku
2010-08-17, 11:09 AM
Another reasonable approach to nerfing spellcasters would be to nerf spell durations and spells known. A significant part of the power of casters (at high levels especially) is the ability to layer 5, 10, or 20 buffs of various types on yourself before heading into danger, and begin every combat with massive defenses and/or great stat boosts. If even "long-duration" spells last 1 minute/level, casters are going to lose some of that advantage. Likewise, in earlier editions of D&D, wizards used to have a maximum number of spells they could learn at each level (generally 12-15, depending on Intelligence). This limited their ability to have a solution to every conceivable problem waiting in their spellbooks. Hitting prepared casters with a limit on max spells learnable per level will greatly restrict their flexibility. Limited-list casters like duskblade, dread necromancer and beguiler already utilize this concept, and it works quite well for them.

Ihouji
2010-08-17, 11:30 AM
Well, I'm not sure if this will help you at all, but I am planning on doing some interesting things to nerf some casting classes:
Wizards go insane as they cast
If Sorcerers don't cast much during the day, they explode (taking out merchant districts at high levels)
Clerics get ever stricter codes, rituals, and more errands they need to do for the god in question.

I like it, but what about druid?

PId6
2010-08-17, 12:43 PM
It makes them 'less fun' because it nerfs them. Taking power from any class or indeed anything in life makes it 'less fun'. 155mph Autobahn speed limits would make life less fun, but that's not to say it's a bad idea.
There are ways to nerf things without making them inherently less fun. Weakening broken spells, for example, would be a good way to weaken spellcasters. Making class features unreliable and liable to kill you just induces frustration on the players playing it, while making spellcasting slow and take rounds to cast is just a way to prevent players from engaging in the game and helps them lose interest ("I continue casting the spell!" shouts Tim on his turn without turning away from the Xbox).

From what I have seen, the best way to nerf casters is to go the route of the beguiler/dread necromancer. Limiting their spell lists to more specialized lists would keep them from being able to do everything at the same time. Alternatively, have mature players not out to break the game and have a DM able to deal with a moderately high power level. It's a cooperative game, after all.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-17, 04:20 PM
I like the wild magic variant, each spell has 50% change of not succeeding.
Instead another spell in your repertoire is fired with the same target.
Was fun roleplaying :smallcool:= win __________

Kantolin
2010-08-17, 05:16 PM
It actually sounds like, for a lot of the 'Or you can screw yourself/your party' nerfs, the goal is that the wizard casts spells /anyway/ and the screwation is the limitation.

If so, uh, then you're either saying 'I don't want wizards, they're jerks' which is a potentially reasonable thing to say, or you're saying 'Be a wizard and cast spells please, but these things will happen'.

If the latter is true, then is the /goal/ to have a wizard who shrugs and says, "Eh, I wanted to play a wizard so I could cast spell. I quicken cast fireball and then cast fireball. Who cares if one of them might end up being a slay living aimed at my fighter buddy or something." I mean... if this is the goal, then... I have to really question this fix.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-08-17, 06:03 PM
I've tried to figure out a way to fix this many times myself and the only things I've come up with that doesnt completely screw the way the system itself works is to somehow control what spells they are ABLE to cast

Wizards: Take serious look as spell components. Make your wizards actually go out and find spell components they need rather than just saying "i have my spell component pouch" make them go to apothecaries and magic shops to resupply frequently. Select an appropriate number of casting they get with each resupply based on the season, the area, and the availability of said item. (And don't let wizards take eschew materials, make that a bonus feat for sorcerers)
Also for wizards, make them actually find a way to learn their spells. if they want to learn kelgores fire bolt make them go get a scroll of kelgores fire bolt. if they want to learn a 9th level spell, make them go on a quest to the special tower of magic in whatever city, talk to the high mage, and earn access to learning that 9th level spell. they're wizards they dont pull spells out of their bum they have to study them to learn them. If there is one spell they really want make them find the spell in the first place. Unless you've got a really high magic setting books on magic are not just lying around for them to pick up and study from.

Clerics: you asked for it but it doesnt mean god is gonna give it to you. . . this is the best way to solve the cleric. make your clerics roll to see what their god actually gives them. if there is somthing specific they want, make them roll as part of their prayers to convince their god to give them certain spells. if they role poorly guess what, god gave them another cure spell, if they role well maybe they'll get that bulls strength they realy wanted for the fight. if theres somthing they REALLY REALLY need. . . make them spend extra time praying to their god to convince that god of the need for it.

alternatively: replace or remove any casting class with unlimited access to the spells they can know. (ie: wizard doesnt exist in favor of sorcerer and favored soul replaces cleric)

Edit: They are not perfect fixes and by no means are they the best fixes but they dont overly screw the existing system and they are fairly low maitenence to implement

FMArthur
2010-08-17, 06:30 PM
I've tried to figure out a way to fix this many times myself and the only things I've come up with that doesnt completely screw the way the system itself works is to somehow control what spells they are ABLE to cast

Wizards: Take serious look as spell components. Make your wizards actually go out and find spell components they need rather than just saying "i have my spell component pouch" make them go to apothecaries and magic shops to resupply frequently. Select an appropriate number of casting they get with each resupply based on the season, the area, and the availability of said item. (And don't let wizards take eschew materials, make that a bonus feat for sorcerers)
Also for wizards, make them actually find a way to learn their spells. if they want to learn kelgores fire bolt make them go get a scroll of kelgores fire bolt. if they want to learn a 9th level spell, make them go on a quest to the special tower of magic in whatever city, talk to the high mage, and earn access to learning that 9th level spell. they're wizards they dont pull spells out of their bum they have to study them to learn them. If there is one spell they really want make them find the spell in the first place. Unless you've got a really high magic setting books on magic are not just lying around for them to pick up and study from.

Clerics: you asked for it but it doesnt mean god is gonna give it to you. . . this is the best way to solve the cleric. make your clerics roll to see what their god actually gives them. if there is somthing specific they want, make them roll as part of their prayers to convince their god to give them certain spells. if they role poorly guess what, god gave them another cure spell, if they role well maybe they'll get that bulls strength they realy wanted for the fight. if theres somthing they REALLY REALLY need. . . make them spend extra time praying to their god to convince that god of the need for it.

alternatively: replace or remove any casting class with unlimited access to the spells they can know. (ie: wizard doesnt exist in favor of sorcerer and favored soul replaces cleric)

Edit: They are not perfect fixes and by no means are they the best fixes but they dont overly screw the existing system and they are fairly low maitenence to implement

Alternatively, throw a baseball at the player's head every time he or she tries to learn or prepare a spell.

And sorcerors being less stupidly overpowering than wizards doesn't mean that sorcerors are sitting on the bench with the monk looking glum. They're almost as powerful as wizards and get the same game-breaking spells.

Kallisti
2010-08-17, 07:03 PM
Really, given the amount of work you'd need to do to get the wizard balanced properly, aren't you better off finding players you can trust to play wizards without ruining everyone's fun?

Zeful
2010-08-17, 07:36 PM
There are better ways, though giving the cleric a binder like mechanic has merit. Though not as a "check to see if you get spells".

The first step would be to change the "really good" spells/schools. Move single target spells conjurations (Orb of X, Melf's Acid Arrow) under Evocation (replace them with spells that affect areas), drop the Calling ability from Gate entirely. Assign HP and Hardness to the Force Effects like Mage Armor and Wall of Force (20 hp +4 hp/caster level (or +10 per level of the spell) per inch of thickness and 10 Hardness sounds like a good starting point). Tone down spells like Knock and similar "auto-success" spells to simply provide a bonus to the related check. Weaken Save-or-Die/Suck/Lose effects. Make DR resist spells unless it's DR/Magic.

The next step would be to add mundane counters for spells. Allow a really high check of Sense motive allow the character to break enchantments like Dominate and Suggestion. Let hide checks allow you to hide from Foresight, or spot to see the invisible). Allow characters to attack force effects directly (coupled with giving such effects hp, a decent ubercharger could cut through a 2-4 inch wall of force in one round).

It's still a hellish amount of work, but if you want the classes to be "balanced" without outright removing spellcasters entirely, then there is a lot of work ahead of you.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-08-17, 08:02 PM
Alternatively, throw a baseball at the player's head every time he or she tries to learn or prepare a spell.

And sorcerors being less stupidly overpowering than wizards doesn't mean that sorcerors are sitting on the bench with the monk looking glum. They're almost as powerful as wizards and get the same game-breaking spells.

I dont think its as bad as that to simply make it harder for wizards to learn spells. technichally they are supposed to learn their spells through study and I know very few campaigns that give them a few weeks at a time to go study up their new spells every level. And clerics do Have to pray for their spells, why not make them role, many gods are fickle like that.

All in all its a beter alternative than the one I've seen some Gm's use where you arent allowed to actually benefit from your new XP level until you take the time to go "train" the new level in the class. and that doesnt even limit the extreamly overpowered wizard.

And no sorcerers arent siting on the bench with monks but theyre miles below a wizard and his "I can learn as many spells as I can get my hands on and I get higher level spells earlier see my awesomeness as it owns you all!"-ness

My solutions are simple and they help, they dont fix the problem, but they dont take rewritting hundred of spells or fundamentally altering classes either.

FMArthur
2010-08-17, 10:22 PM
They make just simple everyday tasks of wizards and clerics a tedius chore. You will get wizards who can't plan long-term at all and completely depend on your spoonfeeding them, and clerics who have to waste time consulting their deity, asking if the spells they ask for to benefit their deity's cause suit the god's mood this morning.

Your solutions make the classes unfun to play, and I would rather a DM tell me outright I can't play a class instead of have me be his helpless puppet for spells and components. They would also slow down the game unreasonably.

ExtravagantEvil
2010-08-17, 10:24 PM
Well, I'm not sure if this will help you at all, but I am planning on doing some interesting things to nerf some casting classes:
Wizards go insane as they cast
If Sorcerers don't cast much during the day, they explode (taking out merchant districts at high levels)
Clerics get ever stricter codes, rituals, and more errands they need to do for the god in question.


I like it, but what about druid?

Well, I'm thinking of having so as that they end up having to specialize in an element, limiting spells known (Not all Druids get Earthquake), or something else, possibly the idea of wildshaping and never looking back (You turn into a lion and you truly become a lion, and eat the party)

Shpadoinkle
2010-08-17, 10:27 PM
I don't think a character being completely ineffective at random for no reason is a good way to balance anything.

Also, any caster worth his salt will be able to kick those DCs in the berries without having to expend too much effort.

Kalrik
2010-08-17, 11:06 PM
Really, given the amount of work you'd need to do to get the wizard balanced properly, aren't you better off finding players you can trust to play wizards without ruining everyone's fun?

THIS.

Core casters are amazing and super cool and can be totally broken...we all know this. It has been mentioned by others in this thread a few good ways to limit the power of, at least, clerics and wizards. The cleric of good and healing probably won't memorize slay living, or divine power, or righteous might...and if your player is trying to, then you punish him, in game, because his god is not that kind of god. Dogma is a real pain sometimes.

Wizards need to learn their spells from scrolls or other wizards. Other wizards are jealous and paranoid about their power, so may require higher prices or a quest to get a spell from them, or will flat out refuse. I dislike teleport magic, it ruins the fun of travel. Teleportation is either A) lost magic needing to be quested for. or B) add: you can only teleport to a place where you have left a magically augmented focus costing (between 500-1000) gold pieces.

In any and all cases, no matter what you do, a smart player will cause you problems if there is magic in the game. So don't invest time in the system, invest it in your players.

GameSpawn
2010-08-18, 09:28 PM
I'm with the school that says limiting spell selection is a better idea than unreliability. You could limit the schools wizards get more strictly, make clerics prepare a higher percentage of their spells from the domain list, for example.

You could, however, combine the two (sort of) and make spellcasters able to cast certain spells reliably, but cast other spells unreliably.

2xMachina
2010-08-18, 11:16 PM
Magic is strong because of utility.

If magic users are blasters, they're about par with others.

Psyx
2010-08-19, 06:50 AM
I don't think a character being completely ineffective at random for no reason is a good way to balance anything.


There can easily be a fluff reason.

a) The winds of magic ebb and flow: Sometimes you can't get enough together.

b) Magic is REALLY DIFFICULT. It's like doing calculus in your head. Sometimes you get it wrong.

c) Magic is dangerous. Sometimes it can potentially rip time/space/your head open. In this situation, casters 'bail out' and stop casting, rather than face the consequences [which are here on a random d1000 table, if you want to risk it...]

Psyx
2010-08-19, 06:52 AM
Why would you do something like. If the goal is to lower there number of spells then do that, but why deal them incurable too? Now your just ganking the pour guy.

'Poor wizard'? I think not. I'm ganking the Tier 1 uber guy.

I'm suggesting it because it's classic fantasy: Wizards get tired and weak as they cast, becoming 'too exhausted' to cast anything without a rest.

The wizard retains his tactical flexibility in having many spells available to him, faces no failure chance, but can't cast ALL of them every day.

Sounds reasonable to me.



which would be a totally jerk thing to do

You're only saying that because you have a paradigm to conform to.

Fighters have to roll to hit... man, that's a jerk thing to make them do.
Everyone has to roll HP, meaning fighters can get less than wizards... man, that's a jerk thing to do.
Nobody except a specialised grappler can really wiggle free of a Kraken. Not even a fighter who is expected to stand in front of it... man, that's a jerk thing to do.

See?

We all know that casters are dirt-hard, but as soon as one comes up with a simple mechanic to limit them, it's like proposing the burning of all schools and libraries.

Shpadoinkle
2010-08-19, 10:29 AM
There can easily be a fluff reason.

a) The winds of magic ebb and flow: Sometimes you can't get enough together.

b) Magic is REALLY DIFFICULT. It's like doing calculus in your head. Sometimes you get it wrong.

c) Magic is dangerous. Sometimes it can potentially rip time/space/your head open. In this situation, casters 'bail out' and stop casting, rather than face the consequences [which are here on a random d1000 table, if you want to risk it...]

I wasn't discussing fluff, I was I discussing the fact that a PCs abilites crapping out at random for no reason isn't fun and isn't good game design.

It SUCKS not being able to contribute because of something you, as a player, have limited if any control over.

Calimehter
2010-08-19, 11:15 AM
One thing I have noticed from my (sadly few) E6 games is that there is a "two-tier" casting system. One tier is spells at level 3 or lower, which cast with the ususal reliability and short casting times that D&D 3.X players have come to know and expect. The other tier is accessing higher level magics through the Incantation mechanism from UA, which involve long casting times and usually involve some form of negative feedback that can be mitigated (but not wholly eliminated) by skill checks . . . much like some of the suggested nerfs in this thread.

Why not adopt a similar "two-tier" system for normal d20 play? That way, you could get your desired 'nerfs' in without turning the entire spellcasting class into an exercise in random rolling. The wizards/clerics/etc. would have some reliable spells to fall back on . . . but they would have to take chances (dice rolls, tactical delays, bad magical feedback) when accessing their best and most powerful spells.

balistafreak
2010-08-19, 11:19 AM
We all know that casters are dirt-hard, but as soon as one comes up with a simple mechanic to limit them, it's like proposing the burning of all schools and libraries.

They already exist. They're called Saving Throws.

The problem with the Saving Throw mechanic, however, is that they're opposing a player-set DC, which as we know is hilariously easy to inflate, thus making high-optimization Save or Dies almost sure hits. More like just "Die". (To say nothing of spells without Saving Throws. Walls and such.) On top of that you can specifically target an enemy's weak save, and it's not even metagaming to force Fortitude on the elderly, Reflex on the behemoth, and Will on the brute.

If you want to put in to-hit rolls for spells, you'd have to remove Saving Throws for perceived balance of gameplay. No one wants to make fighters oppose an Armor-Roll, after all. Too much rolling, slows the game down.

But most people believe that it's even easier to make a to-hit roll than force a SoD (much of the love for Orb spells is behind this), so this might not really be a solution.

4th Edition I believe turned Saving Throws into different types of AC, thus evening the playing board a bit.

(Spell resistance is the magical equivalent of mundane concealment, so no extras there, except that some spells don't even allow Spell Resistance, so yeah. :smallannoyed:)

I believe the major gripe people have with meeting some sort of DC merely to cast a spell is because they see it as forcing a check to see if a fighter can keep a grip on his sword. In the classic D&D universe, the wizard doesn't "struggle" with arcane energies, he "wields" them, so he shouldn't have to worry about randomly dropping them when he's already got to worry if he can hit an enemy with an Orb or if the enemy will resist his Glitterdust.

... really, these problems are more optimization-gripes anyways. I don't mind playing a competent, professional adventurer against competent, professional enemies. (I wouldn't play a "gritty" game for the same reason, where things randomly fail and people randomly die.)

Truth be told, giving everyone a form of Spell Resistance that applies to all spells, more easily pumpable through base stats and basic items, might be the solution if you want magic to have a higher chance of failure. Don't make "misses" expend the spell attempted, and it might work out fine.

Evard
2010-08-19, 12:00 PM
One way to nerf magic is to use a system an old dm of mine used...

When you cast a spell you had to defeat a challenge rating check... Basically if the monster had a challenge rating of 5 then the player would roll a D20 + spell level to pass.

Monster CR = 20
Wizard shoots a 9th level spell

1d20 + 9 > 20 then the spell can act as normal
1d20 + 9 = 20 then the spell acts as normal but with half the power
1d20 + 9 < 20 then the spell doesn't work

After this is resolved the spell functions like in the descriptions... Giving spell resistance or a save or what knot...

Of course CR is not always a great way of determining how powerful a monster is but it worked out alright.

If a Wizard shoots a level 9 spell at a CR 3 monster ... it will auto-work (assuming the monster fails the saves and has no spell resistance or immunities)..

This worked out pretty well for us.

Of course at lower levels spells will almost always be auto hit but at that point it won't matter that much :P

Tyndmyr
2010-08-19, 12:06 PM
We all know that casters are dirt-hard, but as soon as one comes up with a simple mechanic to limit them, it's like proposing the burning of all schools and libraries.

You've missed the point. People are not criticizing you for the idea of limiting casters. They are criticizing your way of limiting casters. Because it's bad for the game.

You've unaccountably missed this obvious issue, despite many people describing to you alternate ways to better limit casters, or attain balance. Why?

Psyx
2010-08-19, 12:30 PM
^Saving throws don't limit how powerful a caster is. Otherwise pure casters would not be tier 1 characters who dump all over other classes.



I wasn't discussing fluff, I was I discussing the fact that a PCs abilites crapping out at random for no reason isn't fun and isn't good game design.

It SUCKS not being able to contribute because of something you, as a player, have limited if any control over.

Like miss chances and incorporeal foes?
Or to-hit rolls?
Or low damage rolls?

Games are about chance adjudicating actions. Lots and lots of games have spell failure chances prior to any saving throw. Lots of them are very, very good games.

Psyx
2010-08-19, 12:33 PM
You've unaccountably missed this obvious issue, despite many people describing to you alternate ways to better limit casters, or attain balance. Why?

I was literally tossing out an idea from the top of my head. I'm not attached to it: If I want to play a game with a decently balanced magic system, I'll play one of the other games on my shelf, because 3.5 is broken beyond the fix of house-rules, unless you want to run to 20 pages of them.

What's shocked me is the sheer attachment to the existing paradigm that people have, and unwillingness to compromise that; even in the face of several solutions that are firmly in keeping with fantasy tropes.

Quellian-dyrae
2010-08-19, 03:56 PM
I think one of the problems that comes with major nerfs to the system of casting is that casting is really the only thing that most casters (druids being the main exception) can do. Weaken it too much, and casters simply lose all value, or become useful only very situationally.

The solution I see, barring major system overhauls, is to balance toning down caster power by giving them more reliable basic capabilities. Weaken their strongest powers and strengthen their weakest, so that they reach a playable average. For example, you could give casters a spell progression on the level of bards, resulting in lower level spells, slower acquisition of new spell levels, and fewer spells/day (and spells known for spontaneous casters), but then give all of them a capably powerful, reasonably optimizable, scaling ability that they can use largely at will.

Let evokers have at-will blasting, give conjurers a pet on par with a druid's animal companion (or maybe a bit better, since druids also get Wild Shape), let transmuters have a Wild Shape-esque ability, give abjurers the ability to counter and reflect enemy attacks, clerics may get a selection of possible powers based on their domains, etc. Add a few feats that let you improve on these things (so you can specialize in your routine abilities or your spellcasting), and you should be able to hit Tier 3 without too much problem.