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Tengu_temp
2010-08-17, 05:43 AM
The thread title is self-explanatory. Hybrid classes are fair game as well.

Let me start with this terrible idea:
Gnome Seeker
Probably the worst class in the whole game, combined with a race that not only doesn't synergize with it in the slightest, but also forces you to use smaller, weaker weapons. Is there any saving grace to this combination?

DemLep
2010-08-17, 05:45 AM
Gnomes are cool?

I still looking for game to use my Orc Wizard.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-17, 06:47 AM
In gameplay, races are primarily identified by their racial power. Sure, they get some bonuses to skills or stats, but that is much less noticeable during combat.

So...

Dragonborn have their breath weapon. While iconic, most of the time this really doesn't do much (woo, five points of damage), especially on classes that don't use str, dex or con. Except on fighters and sorcerers, or for minion clearing, this is a pretty bad combo with pretty much anything.

Dwarves are a poor combo with any class that tends not to get hurt a lot (e.g. infernalocks).

Eladrin and Elves have excellent racial powers that combo with everything. Likewise, Half-elves can almost always find a good class to copy a power from.

Halflings have a good racial power, but due to their size, combo poorly with any striker class that relies on multi-[W] damage.

Humans are actually a much worse choice than people tend to think, and end up being mediocre at most classes. This is because to the question "when will you use your third at-will", the answer in practice turns out to be "pretty much never". The most popular human feats (action surge and human perseverance) are pretty low on the priority list for most builds, simply because so many more and better feats have been printed.

And Tieflings (assuming the errata'ed version of their racial power) combo poorly with anyone who's not a striker.

The racial lineup in the PHB specifies three "favored" classes for each race, but this turns out to be largely arbitrary. For instance, half-elves, eladrin, and tieflings are stated to be good warlords, but I have no idea why: none of the three gets a bonus to strength, or to any skill commonly used by warlords, or get a racial power that is remotely connected to warlording.


Yup, there are some pretty bad combos here. However, just because something doesn't synergize doesn't make it any less fun to play; this post is purely about mechanics. Also, certain race/class combos get very good feats that enable powerful options for your build.

dsmiles
2010-08-17, 07:18 AM
And Tieflings (assuming the errata'ed version of their racial power) combo poorly with anyone who's not a striker.

Good thing errata and updates are optional. Silly WOTC, nerfing the cleric.

Level8Mudcrab
2010-08-17, 08:07 AM
I've made a kobold sorcerer. It doesn't sound too bad until you take into account the fact I was using plate armour and a flail as my primary combat strategy. That was one fun character.

dsmiles
2010-08-17, 08:09 AM
I've made a kobold sorcerer. It doesn't sound too bad until you take into account the fact I was using plate armour and a flail as my primary combat strategy. That was one fun character.


It doesn't JUST sound fun, it sounds like epic koboldery (koboldism, maybe?), if you ask me.

DemLep
2010-08-17, 08:15 AM
That's more of an equipment choice fail then race/class combo fail though.

dsmiles
2010-08-17, 08:16 AM
That's more of an equipment choice fail then race/class combo fail though.

Fail? More like "Stylish kobold is stylish." Which to me = WIN!

Kurald Galain
2010-08-17, 08:22 AM
Continuing among this line,

Deva, like elves, work well with everything (plus, free resist necrotic is very useful). Gnomes work well with everything except certain defenders (if your goal is to draw fire, then being invisible doesn't help), and have the same small size issue that halflings do.

The Goliath doesn't synergize well with any class that doesn't intend to be in melee. Minotaurs only combo well with any class that likes charging enemies, like fighters or barbarians. Githzerai work well with any class that doesn't need to move around all the time (e.g. warlocks) so that you actually have a move action left.

Half-orcs, Revenants and Longtooth Shifters only synergize with strikers. That's what you get for a racial that is basically "do a bit more damage, once per encounter".

Razorclaw Shifters really don't synergize with anything and are a pretty bad race overall.

Shardmind and Shadar-Kai work well with everything, because teleportation is one of the best racials you can get.

Warforged work with everything except classes that don't get hurt a lot, the same issue as dwarves, really. And Drow doesn't really synergize except with rogues, or as a get-out-of-melee-free card in case you need one; that's because combat advantage isn't that big of a deal to non-rogues.

TheEmerged
2010-08-17, 08:24 AM
Dragonborn have their breath weapon. While iconic, most of the time this really doesn't do much (woo, five points of damage), especially on classes that don't use str, dex or con. Except on fighters and sorcerers, or for minion clearing, this is a pretty bad combo with pretty much anything.

The Dragonborn paladin in our party would like to have a word with you ;) He's got a single encounter power that damages enemies as a minor action, gives an attack bonus to allies in the area, weakens one target, and marks all the enemies in the area.

Of course, he has that power at the expense of 4 feats (and he has stated he's thought very seriously about 2 more), so there's two sides to that equation.

-----------------

Right now, a lot of the 'monster' races are bad combinations for any class because they don't have the benefit of the width of racial feats the mainstream races do. I'm considering this as my next project, actually.

Tengu_temp
2010-08-17, 09:06 AM
Okay, after taking Kurald Galain's opinions under consideration, how about this?

Half-Orc Shaman|Psion
Your race gives you strength, dexterity, and the ability to deal more damage in melee. What you want is intelligence and wisdom in the best case scenario, and intelligence, wisdom, charisma and constitution in the worst case scenario, all of your powers are ranged and dealing damage is not your primary purpose. Hybrid leaders are very bad at healing, especially if you're a shaman which is already a pretty bad class on its own, and augmenting classes hybridized with non-augmenting ones have cripplingly low PP.

Blackfang108
2010-08-17, 01:24 PM
The racial lineup in the PHB specifies three "favored" classes for each race, but this turns out to be largely arbitrary. For instance, half-elves, eladrin, and tieflings are stated to be good warlords, but I have no idea why: none of the three gets a bonus to strength, or to any skill commonly used by warlords, or get a racial power that is remotely connected to warlording.

The INT synergy with Tactical warlords, as well as the feat support for Eladrin Taclords since, makes them GREAT tactical warlords. Tieflings Get a bonus to both Secondaries. Half-Elves get a bonus to Con and CHA, which is an acceptable alternative to Str and Cha for Inspiring Warlords.

Prime Stat synergy isn't everything.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-17, 01:35 PM
The INT synergy with Tactical warlords, as well as the feat support for Eladrin Taclords since, makes them GREAT tactical warlords. Tieflings Get a bonus to both Secondaries. Half-Elves get a bonus to Con and CHA, which is an acceptable alternative to Str and Cha for Inspiring Warlords.
Sure, but by that logic, pretty much every race makes a good tactical warlord. Yes, taclords are great. No, there is nothing especially great about Eladrin, Tiefling, or Half-Elf that makes them better taclords than e.g. Dragonborn, Elf, or Halfling.

A statement in a book is not justified by feats printed in later books - for all we know they printed those feats later because they realized their earlier statement was simply incorrect.

Reverent-One
2010-08-17, 01:43 PM
Sure, but by that logic, pretty much every race makes a good tactical warlord. Yes, taclords are great. No, there is nothing especially great about Eladrin, Tiefling, or Half-Elf that makes them better taclords than e.g. Dragonborn, Elf, or Halfling.

A statement in a book is not justified by feats printed in later books - for all we know they printed those feats later because they realized their earlier statement was simply incorrect.

Except the favored classes section isn't about whether the given race is the best for the class, but what classes are better for the given race. And for that, the statement is accuracte, since the Eladrin for example have more going for them to be Warlords with the INT bonus than they do to be Paladins, Fighters, Clerics, or Warlocks (Actually, the int bonus is about equally useful for warlocks).

Break
2010-08-17, 04:06 PM
Sure, but by that logic, pretty much every race makes a good tactical warlord. Yes, taclords are great. No, there is nothing especially great about Eladrin, Tiefling, or Half-Elf that makes them better taclords than e.g. Dragonborn, Elf, or Halfling.

.....actually, yes, there is something specially great about Eladrin Taclords that put them above the other races. They have excellent feat support specifically tailored for them being Taclords, not just general racial boosts.

You've got the Spiral Tactician PP, Tactical Inspiration, and Fey Tactics, among other things. Eladrin Soldier isn't Taclord specific, but helps out quite a bit considering that many warlords favor a greatspear anyway. Things like that are worth the Strength drop.

Kaeso
2010-08-17, 04:42 PM
Halfling CW samurai/monk/sorcerer with heavy armor, a tower shield (bought with a feat) and unarmed attacks. Even better if he has permanencied reduce person cast on him.

I'm surprised nobody named either the CW samurai or a monk yet.

Zombimode
2010-08-17, 04:44 PM
Because this is a D&D 4e thread.

Kaeso
2010-08-17, 04:46 PM
Ack, I didn't notice that *feels stupid*

Kurald Galain
2010-08-17, 06:09 PM
.
You've got the Spiral Tactician PP, Tactical Inspiration, and Fey Tactics, among other things.
Yes, they do now. They did not when that suggestion in the PHB was printed.

Like I just said: A statement in a book is not justified by feats printed in later books - for all we know they printed those feats (and that PP) later because they realized their earlier statement was simply incorrect.

Also, pretty much every PHB/PHB2 race has feats printed that help them at being warlords.

Gralamin
2010-08-17, 08:09 PM
Like I just said: A statement in a book is not justified by feats printed in later books - for all we know they printed those feats (and that PP) later because they realized their earlier statement was simply incorrect.
Why should it matter at all whether they thought that statement started off as correct? You are guessing at intention, with no ability to back up what you say. It could be they realized they were wrong, or it could be something they planned on doing - we have no way of knowing. Thus the only thing that should matter is that the statement is correct or not - and it is very much correct.


Also, pretty much every PHB/PHB2 race has feats printed that help them at being warlords.
The feats and PPs are a step above what almost every other race gets.

DragonBaneDM
2010-08-18, 01:33 AM
Gnome Two Weapon Fighting Ranger. Thoughts?

Whyareall
2010-08-18, 01:47 AM
Eladrin Hybrid Warlock|Cleric with a mix of Fey (CHA) and Infernal (CON) Warlock powers and weapon (STR) and implement (WIS) Cleric powers. With the Star Pact, of course.

Yeah, that's right, a character using -four different abilities- for their attacks, with a racial bonus to none. I don't think you can get any worse. Preferably with CHA as the lowest of the four, for weakened Cleric riders. Oh, and use an tome as your implement with Arcane Implement Proficiency, not a holy symbol (hybrids can use any implement from either class for any spell from either), so you get stuck with a 1 handed weapon (as opposed to wearing the holy symbol, taking up no hands), as well as an implement that would work wonderfully for a Wizard. Was gonna do an orb, but I realised Locks have control powers, and orbs help control powers.

Oh, and for Hybrid Talent, choose Channel Divinity (Hybrid), and rather than following a deity, follow a philosophy.

tcrudisi
2010-08-18, 01:47 AM
Gnome Two Weapon Fighting Ranger. Thoughts?

Pure epic awesomesauce. As a DM, I know I want to kill the Ranger as quickly as possible. With him being a gnome, that takes away my first round of trying to do so. The gnome stays alive to kill all my baddies, which makes me a sad DM. :smallfrown:

(I don't really try to kill the players; I just don't hold punches.)

chaotoroboto
2010-08-18, 01:58 AM
Gnome Two Weapon Fighting Ranger. Thoughts?

Gnome Two-Handed Barbarian?

I think Gnome is definitely the right track.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-18, 03:19 AM
Thus the only thing that should matter is that the statement is correct or not - and it is very much correct.
No, you're missing the point.

It's not about the narrow statement that "eladrin make good taclords". It's about whether the race/class suggestions given in the PHB are anything other than arbitrary. WOTC has a long history of giving mediocre advice in their sections on sample builds.

For instance, PHB says Tieflings make good warlords, or that halflings are good warlocks. They're really not: while they're not bad, they're not particularly better than most other races, either. It also says that humans excel at every class, and they really don't. Sure, human is almost always a viable choice, but so is dwarf or elf. For instance, dwarf ranger is a surprisingly decent combo. Being viable is not the same as excelling.

PHB does not mention that Eladrin make good fighters, or that Tieflings make good wizards - and yet the Eladrin feycharger and Tiefling fire mage have been two of the most popular and most powerful builds for those classes.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-18, 03:20 AM
Gnome Two-Handed Barbarian?

I think Gnome is definitely the right track.
How about a half-orc pacifist cleric? You get a racial that does more damage, and a class that wants to avoid doing damage.

For that matter, elf lazylord. You get a racial that boosts attack rolls, and you're not making any.

Meta
2010-08-20, 02:06 PM
Sure, but by that logic, pretty much every race makes a good tactical warlord. Yes, taclords are great. No, there is nothing especially great about Eladrin, Tiefling, or Half-Elf that makes them better taclords than e.g. Dragonborn, Elf, or Halfling.

A statement in a book is not justified by feats printed in later books - for all we know they printed those feats later because they realized their earlier statement was simply incorrect.

Taclords are perhaps the class in phb that needs primary stat the least, int would be more important in several useful builds

cdrcjsn
2010-08-20, 03:20 PM
Pure epic awesomesauce. As a DM, I know I want to kill the Ranger as quickly as possible. With him being a gnome, that takes away my first round of trying to do so. The gnome stays alive to kill all my baddies, which makes me a sad DM. :smallfrown:

For the record, I have a gnome ranger character and I too have noticed that some DMs will go out of their way to try to cause harm to my character. It doesn't happen to me when I play any other characters.

Perhaps the fact that his name is Drizzo has something to do with it. Or the fact that he wields two scimitars, summons an animal companion with a figurine, and comes from the underdark trying to overcome the "evils" of his race.

Blackfang108
2010-08-20, 06:29 PM
It's not about the narrow statement that "eladrin make good taclords". It's about whether the race/class suggestions given in the PHB are anything other than arbitrary. WOTC has a long history of giving mediocre advice in their sections on sample builds.

Eladrin made good TacLords before Martial Power. In fact, until the FRPG, Eladrin was usually THE race of choice for TacLords. (Genasi, with Perfect Stat Synergy, replaced them. Martial Power merely pushed Eladrin TacLords back to the top.)

Do you know why? The Eladrin Waepon Feat, from the PHB (afb, and cant' recall the name). Reach through spears, along with a bonus to the damage, the Plus to Int, and the racial power that let them be where they needed to be in order to be effective leaders.

Using JUST the PHB, Eladrin make good warlords, specifically tactical warlords. Add in Martial Power and AV 1, and they make Excellent ones.

Mando Knight
2010-08-20, 11:10 PM
Reach through spears,

Eladrin Soldier's bonus wasn't terrific compared to Weapon Focus until AV1 came out, as the Greatspear, Tratnyr, and Urgrosh are the only spears a Warlord isn't proficient in anyway. Most Warlords would have been fine with what was available already: Halberds and Longspears make decent Reach weapons, even if they lose +1 to hit (though, really, that's only going to make or break it 5% of the time).

Colmarr
2010-08-20, 11:57 PM
The racial lineup in the PHB specifies three "favored" classes for each race, but this turns out to be largely arbitrary. For instance, half-elves, eladrin, and tieflings are stated to be good warlords, but I have no idea why: none of the three gets a bonus to strength, or to any skill commonly used by warlords, or get a racial power that is remotely connected to warlording.

What, you mean the +Cha bump for the half-elves, the +Int bump for the Eladrin and the +Cha AND +Int bump for the Tieflings don't count?

Considering the classes that were available at the time of printing the PHB, the race write-ups are spot on IMO. Each of them contains at least two classes with a racial "bump" ability as a primary attack ability. If WotC weren't able to find three such classes, they included on with a racial "bump" ability as a secondary ability.

EDIT: Oops, just realised about 10 thousand people beat me to this issue.

Let me instead say this:


No, you're missing the point.

It's not about the narrow statement that "eladrin make good taclords". It's about whether the race/class suggestions given in the PHB are anything other than arbitrary. WOTC has a long history of giving mediocre advice in their sections on sample builds.

For instance, PHB says Tieflings make good warlords, or that halflings are good warlocks.

Actually, it doesn't. It says "to be a member of a race that favours the warlock, warlord and rogue classes".

Kurald Galain
2010-08-21, 05:46 AM
What, you mean the +Cha bump for the half-elves, the +Int bump for the Eladrin and the +Cha AND +Int bump for the Tieflings don't count?

Like Blackfang said earlier in this thread, "prime stat synergy isn't everything".

true_shinken
2010-08-21, 08:19 AM
Like Blackfang said earlier in this thread, "prime stat synergy isn't everything".

But it is something. Even that extra 0.5% of not missing goes a long way towards making your encounter powers actually matter.
I know I should have given Cha 20 to my tiefling bard, but I went with 18 and higher Int. Big mistake. I've already missed with Blunder by A SINGLE POINT twice now.

Blackfang108
2010-08-21, 11:44 AM
Like Blackfang said earlier in this thread, "prime stat synergy isn't everything".

He's commenting on SECONDARY stat synergy with the Warlord. Which is what I meant when I said primary stat synergy isn't everything.

I'm on the other side of this debate, KG. Please don't quote me out of context.

Reverent-One
2010-08-21, 12:14 PM
Like Blackfang said earlier in this thread, "prime stat synergy isn't everything".

It's still more than nothing.