PDA

View Full Version : Can you die from non-lethal damage?



Edhelras
2010-08-17, 08:05 AM
A couple of threads made me uncertain of this. The SRD states that:


Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

And:


When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round. You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.

But what happens next? So, you're unconscious and helpless, but what next? In some cases, like being immersed in freezing waters, the rules state how to proceed: Further cold damage to an unconscious creature is now treated as lethal damage.
Is that the general rule? That non-lethal damage in surplus of your current hit points is converted to lethal damage? Or rather, that non-lethal damage to an unconscious creature is treated as lethal damage?

I once made a subdual non-lethal attack on a guard to knock him out, and in fact scored a critical hit causing huge non-lethal damage, in fact twice his current hit points or more. Did I in fact kill him?

hamishspence
2010-08-17, 08:11 AM
If we're following RAW to the letter, probably not.

It might make sense to rule that "environment" things that can knock you out, can eventually kill you though- like thirst.

I think Sandstorm has rules for "dessication damage" but I'm not sure how this interacts with the standard thirst rules.

Maybe there really is, by the RAW, no way to starve someone to death?

Aroka
2010-08-17, 08:13 AM
Non-lethal damage is never lethal. It's in the name. Specific circumstances that inflict non-lethal damage may kill you (like thirst and heatstroke, at least with Sandstorm rules), but that's a separate rule and not a property of non-lethal damage. You quoted the relevant rule yourself.

Edhelras
2010-08-17, 08:29 AM
Seems like there is a hole in the rules, then? Since no one knows what happens after you fall unconscious. Seems to me that everyone is reckoning that unconscious creatures are, somehow, helped out of the circumstances that made them unconscious from non-lethal damage.
At least when it comes to thirst and starvation, but I think the same applies to non-lethal damage from non-lethal weapon attacks. If you continue beating up an unconscious character, won't he, eventually, die from your beating? Even if at a slower rate than if you were using lethal damage. Strange this is...

hamishspence
2010-08-17, 08:35 AM
strange indeed. However, it's actually a recommended method of dealing with a creature that can teleport at will, when you have no way of suppressing it, and yet you must take it alive-

knock it unconscious, then pile on the nonlethal damage until it will take a week or so to recover.

Morph Bark
2010-08-17, 08:38 AM
strange indeed. However, it's actually a recommended method of dealing with a creature that can teleport at will, when you have no way of suppressing it, and yet you must take it alive-

knock it unconscious, then pile on the nonlethal damage until it will take a week or so to recover.

At some point, won't it die from hunger or thirst?

sdream
2010-08-17, 08:41 AM
The rules as written are more in the vein of what is not written.

Since there is no cap on non-lethal damage and it heals at a fixed rate, extreme amounts leave you in a long term coma.

However, I'm a strong fan of the intent of the rules is to simulate a realistic world, and in the real world, enough light damage kills.

I'd treat it like world of darkness, non-lethal damage in excess of -10 wraps around to lethal, and when that reaches -10 you are dead.

This is decidedly inconvenient, as any attack has a risk of death... but that's the way the world works. Life is risk.

hamishspence
2010-08-17, 08:42 AM
At some point, won't it die from hunger or thirst?

You'd think that- but the starvation & thirst rules don't mention lethal damage:


Starvation And Thirst
Characters might find themselves without food or water and with no means to obtain them. In normal climates, Medium characters need at least a gallon of fluids and about a pound of decent food per day to avoid starvation. (Small characters need half as much.) In very hot climates, characters need two or three times as much water to avoid dehydration.

A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.

Aroka
2010-08-17, 08:43 AM
Seems like there is a hole in the rules, then? Since no one knows what happens after you fall unconscious. Seems to me that everyone is reckoning that unconscious creatures are, somehow, helped out of the circumstances that made them unconscious from non-lethal damage. At least when it comes to thirst and starvation

Those circumstances have, or should have, specific rules beyond non-lethal damage. It's not the non-lethal damage that kills you, it's the thirst or starvation. The SRD doesn't have these rules (it probably wasn't considered important enough, for whatever eason), but Sandstorm, for instance, has a bunch of rules for progressing from taking non-lethal environmental damage to taking lethal damage.


but I think the same applies to non-lethal damage from non-lethal weapon attacks. If you continue beating up an unconscious character, won't he, eventually, die from your beating?

According to the rules, no. You're not causing lethal damage. (Personally, I'd cap non-lethal damage at 1 or 10 above your full hit points, just like I usually cap regular damage at full hit points +10.) If you want to kill someone with your fists, you take the -4 penalty to inflict lethal damage and coup de grace the helpless sod.

Eldan
2010-08-17, 08:44 AM
I would probably rule that after a while, nonlethal is converted into lethal, perhaps at a rate of 3:1 or something.

Morph Bark
2010-08-17, 08:46 AM
You'd think that- but the starvation & thirst rules don't mention lethal damage:

Considering it cannot be recovered in any way until they get food, once they'd reach 0 (or -10 rather yet) I imagine they'd effectively be dead once they fail another check. Not RAW though, of course.

Karuth
2010-08-17, 09:07 AM
I would say you can kill with non-lethal damage if you apply too much of it. But it should not happen that often, so the easiest solution would be to just improvise on the spot.

Knocking someone out isn't exactly very gentle. And if you are using too much force you can easily kill someone. In the case you described I'd say you hit him so hard he got internal bleedings that are too severe and he'll die from it shortly if left untreated. Kinda like being in the negative, just a bit slower (so the guard has 10 minutes to be stabilized instead of 10 rounds for example).

In our games we usually usally say, if you have twice your maximum HP as non-lethal damage it gets dangerous.

PretzelKing
2010-08-17, 09:38 AM
rules compendium has rules for starvation and thirst. page 140.

the rules for falling unconscious make sense, you fall into a coma for a period of time until you are healed, naturally or otherwise.

dsmiles
2010-08-17, 09:43 AM
By RAW, it seems like the answer is no.

By RAIP (rules as I play) yes, when you reach 0 non-lethal HP, you start to take regular HP damage (yes, you can freeze to death, you can die from heat stroke, you can die from starvation and thirst). Just my take on it, though.

hamishspence
2010-08-17, 09:55 AM
RAW already allowed for freezing to death and death by heatstroke- it was death by starvation that was the problem.

Did Rules Compendium fix that?

PretzelKing
2010-08-17, 10:00 AM
"a creature that falls unconscious from nonlethal damage due to starvation or thirst begins to take the same amount of lethal damage instead."

cant be healed magically blah blah blah...

looks like the the damage appears to be a d6 for each failed con check.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-17, 10:08 AM
So the answer is "no". You'll take nonlethal damage to infinity, or until a lizard coup'de graces you by licking you.
Yes, this is on the same level of hole of the "drowning back to life" silliness. If you want to fix the hole, change "nonlethal damage" to "your maximum hp drops by 1d6", killing you when it reaches -10 as usual.

Or constitution damage that can't be healed until the thirst/starvation is dealt with, at which point it heals at the normal rate. Can't go wrong with constitution damage.

PretzelKing
2010-08-17, 10:15 AM
well, you'll take non-lethal damage till your character starts to suffer from starvation/thirst. then you'll take lethal damage.

that sounds like a pretty horrible way for a hero to die.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-17, 10:22 AM
well, you'll take non-lethal damage till your character starts to suffer from starvation/thirst. then you'll take lethal damage.

that sounds like a pretty horrible way for a hero to die.

That damage is specifically non-lethal.

PretzelKing
2010-08-17, 10:55 AM
if a creature was unconscious for 3 days and unable to eat/drink, wouldnt they fall under the starvation/thirst rules for taking damage?

Snake-Aes
2010-08-17, 10:58 AM
if a creature was unconscious for 3 days and unable to eat/drink, wouldnt they fall under the starvation/thirst rules for taking damage?

Yes, and that damage is nonlethal.

Telonius
2010-08-17, 11:01 AM
I'd say that non-lethal damage in itself can't kill you. The situation that being unconscious puts you in, can. Go unconscious when trying to balance on a tightrope across the Gorge of Eternal Peril? That won't turn out well. Go unconscious in any environment where scavengers are active? Probably not safe, either.

Escheton
2010-08-17, 11:10 AM
I like the idea of dozens of unconscious hero's in a wasteland waiting too pledge their life to you after you slip them a ring of sustenance. Seeing there is no other way of fixing their non-lethal starvation and force-feeding prolly isn't an option.

It's a better backgroundstory than: you all met in a pub.

Tar Palantir
2010-08-17, 11:11 AM
I think that nonlethal damage driving someone into, effectively, a coma when applied in large amounts is actually rather ideal, except for specific exceptions to be added for starvation, thirst, etc. There are plenty of people who have been beaten into comas, and now we know how :smalltongue:.

Edhelras
2010-08-17, 12:03 PM
The idea with CON damage starting at some point after the creature has become unconscious from non-lethal damage seems attractive to me.
It would be very sensible with situations of starvation, thirst, sleep deprivation (as mentioned in another thread I wrote ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164416 ) and probably a lot of similar situation where the creature is slwoly worn down, until the point that his basic health (or, yeah, constitution...) start to suffer.

But apparently, we have to write these rules for ourselves...

Aroka
2010-08-17, 12:03 PM
Yes, and that damage is nonlethal.

But PretzelKing gave what I take to be a quote from the Rules Compendium:


"a creature that falls unconscious from nonlethal damage due to starvation or thirst begins to take the same amount of lethal damage instead."

cant be healed magically blah blah blah...

looks like the the damage appears to be a d6 for each failed con check.

Which addresses the issue. It's also the same solution as in Sandstorm: once you're unconscious from nonlethal damage from heatstroke or thirst, it starts dealing lethal damage. You pass out, then you start dying. That should work equally well for starvation, thirst, heatstroke, cold, etc. etc.

hamishspence
2010-08-17, 12:11 PM
The Sandstorm Dehydration rules allow it for Thirst, but doesn't mention starvation.

The Rules Compendium mentions them both- on page 140:


A creature that falls unconscious from nonlethal damage through starvation or thirst begins to take the same amount of lethal damage instead.

Under thirst, there are harsher rules than the standard SRD ones:


Creatures that have taken nonlethal damage from lack of water are dehydrated and become fatigued. If a dehydrated creature would take nonlethal damage from hot environmental conditions, that dmaage instead becomes lethal damage.

So, in a hot desert, you will die of thirst much faster than in a cold desert, even if the amount of nonlethal damage you are taking from the temperatures, is the same.

Edhelras
2010-08-17, 12:41 PM
Hm, sitting with my 2007 copy of the rules compendium, I found the thirst rules, but not those particulars about starvation - it doesn't mention lethal damage. However, it does mention those for thirst - and I guess that and the rules for cold and heat gives us directives for how to handle other kinds of excessive non-lethal damage.

hamishspence
2010-08-17, 12:50 PM
Hm, sitting with my 2007 copy of the rules compendium, I found the thirst rules, but not those particulars about starvation - it doesn't mention lethal damage. However, it does mention those for thirst - and I guess that and the rules for cold and heat gives us directives for how to handle other kinds of excessive non-lethal damage.

Check the very first paragraph on page 140- I bought my copy immediately after it came out, and it mentions them both in that paragraph.

Thirst is covered in more detail later though.

Edhelras
2010-08-17, 01:07 PM
Oops... my fault. You're absolutely right, of course. So, the Rules Compendium at least has catched up with this hole.

Sliver
2010-08-17, 01:09 PM
I'd say that non-lethal damage in itself can't kill you. The situation that being unconscious puts you in, can. Go unconscious when trying to balance on a tightrope across the Gorge of Eternal Peril? That won't turn out well. Go unconscious in any environment where scavengers are active? Probably not safe, either.

:smallsigh: Always eternal peril. Eternal peril this, infinite suffering that. Why so obsolete? Why not the pit of temporary inconvenience?

hamishspence
2010-08-17, 01:11 PM
However, if someone is playing a "3.5 core" game that doesn't use even the Rules Compendium, taking something like the Tarrasque down via starving it to death, doesn't technically work.

PretzelKing
2010-08-17, 01:11 PM
thats what i was shooting for, sorry, i wasnt very specific with what i was quoting!!

im glad you guys understand what im trying to get at cuz i sure dont!

Tharck
2010-08-17, 01:34 PM
I'd say the rules were written with some common sense in mind. After all no where in the rules does it say you have to read left to right, top to bottom. But it sure makes a lot more sense when you do :)

Snake-Aes
2010-08-17, 02:13 PM
I'd say the rules were written with some common sense in mind. After all no where in the rules does it say you have to read left to right, top to bottom. But it sure makes a lot more sense when you do :)

I wouldn't count on that, given cup noodles here has the "warning! This product is hot after you heat it" because it saves them a ton of money in sues.
People can go pretty low on the stupid, the "stupid" and the "OH SWEET MOTHER OF GOD WHY DO YOU EVEN BOTHER BEING SO STUPID?"

Marnath
2010-08-17, 09:06 PM
"a creature that falls unconscious from nonlethal damage due to starvation or thirst begins to take the same amount of lethal damage instead."


I was under the impression that applied to all non-lethal damage. I guess not by RAW, but it still seems reasonable by RAI.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-17, 09:12 PM
"a creature that falls unconscious from nonlethal damage due to starvation or thirst begins to take the same amount of lethal damage instead."

cant be healed magically blah blah blah...

looks like the the damage appears to be a d6 for each failed con check.

The Refreshment spell (BoED), from what i remember, can heal that kind of non-lethal damage.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-17, 09:19 PM
However, if someone is playing a "3.5 core" game that doesn't use even the Rules Compendium, taking something like the Tarrasque down via starving it to death, doesn't technically work.

Rules Compendium: Now you have to pay for Errata!

Of course, according to the primary source rule at the top of the errata, the DMG/PHB/MM dominate over anything that contradicts them (unless it's an actual errata file).

According to the Rules Compendium, the Rules Compendium dominates over anything it contradicts.

Maybe I'm a little bitter....