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View Full Version : [4e] Brawler Style, Unarmed Weapons, 2-Weapon Defense



ShaggyMarco
2010-08-17, 08:11 AM
I was tinkering with a Warforged Brawler and a question occured to me:

If my fighter with the Brawler Style Talent has 2 spiked gauntlets and the 2-weapon defense feat, what happens?

A. Does he get +1 AC, +2 Fortitude, and +1 Shield to AC because he wields a weapon in his primary hand (spiked gauntlet) and his off hand is free (unarmed weapon), but also has an off-hand weapon. (aka Spiked Gauntlets always count as both wielding a weapon in the hand and NOT wielding a weapon in the hand)

B. Does he get a +1 Shield to AC because he is wielding 2 weapons, thus disqualifying himself from having a "free" off-hand for Brawler Style? (aka Spiked Gauntlets always count as a weapon and never as a "free" hand. This seems to be directly opposite to the intention of the Brawler build's options. This is what the (admittedly, not authoritative) character builder does.)

C. Does he get nothing because he has no weapon in his main hand, disqualifying him from Brawler, and no weapon in either hand, disqualifying him from 2-weapon defense (aka Spiked Gauntlets don't ever count as wielding a weapon)

D. Do I just have to pick weather my spiked gauntlets are a weapon or a free hand? DO they both have to be the same? If I pick, when do I pick, and how do I later change?

Clearly, I hope A is the answer.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-17, 08:29 AM
The spiked gauntlet is one weapon, so it doesn't qualify for two-weapon defense (which, frankly, is a pretty bad feat anyway).

And since it is one weapon, it does qualify you for brawler style bonuses.

Clearly, you can't simultaneously count as wielding a weapon and NOT wielding a weapon.

ShaggyMarco
2010-08-17, 08:56 AM
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear (woops!)

What if I have a Spiked Gauntlet on BOTH hands?

Am I wielding two weapons?

Am I unarmed?

Are my hands free?

Kurald Galain
2010-08-17, 09:05 AM
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear (woops!)

What if I have a Spiked Gauntlet on BOTH hands?

The item "spiked gauntlets" consists of two gauntlets, and counts as one weapon. Yes, that's a bit weird, but it means that it doesn't make sense to wield two "spiked gauntlets" items, i.e. four gauntlets.

If you would anyway (because RAW lets you) then yes, you are wielding two weapons, which means you qualify for TWD but not for the Brawler bonus.

ShaggyMarco
2010-08-17, 09:39 AM
Huh...I didn't realize Spiked Gauntlet was automatically on both hands. That's what I get for primarily using the character builder which lists it as "spiked gauntlet" singular and only equips it in one hand.

What are you basing that ruling on? I am away from books at the moment and the Compendium is blocked at work, so I can't check the exact text there, but in the Character Builder it doesn't mention anything other than the fact that it uses up your hand-slot.

I am starting to wonder if two-weapon defense should work at all. If Spiked Gauntlet is, in fact, just a 1-handed weapon, as it appears in the CB, then am I holding it since it is worn? Is it "held" so long as I'm not holding something else? (such as a person?)

Relevant Rules text I have access to:
Two Weapon Defense: "While holding a melee weapon in each hand, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex."
Brawler Style: "While you wield a weapon in your primary hand and your off hand is free or grabbing a creature, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Fortitude"
Spiked Gauntlet/Simple Melee/Group: Unarmed/Properties: Off-Hand

mobdrazhar
2010-08-17, 04:17 PM
i always thought the spiked gauntlet was a 1 handed weapon that classified you as having 1 hand free as well as being armed with a weapon.

Makiru
2010-08-17, 08:47 PM
i always thought the spiked gauntlet was a 1 handed weapon that classified you as having 1 hand free as well as being armed with a weapon.

I was also under this impression. The fact that Brawler Style is oddly worded (and already errata'd) to make it sound like you lose bonuses if you grab somebody doesn't help either.

I would let it slide as a DM, mostly because it makes sense and Brawler Style doesn't need any more against it than it already does.

Nu
2010-08-18, 12:13 AM
The spiked gauntlet is listed under "one-handed weapons" in AV, and the footnote in MP2 specifically says that your hand is considered free even with a spiked gauntlet equipped. There's nothing to imply that you aren't also wielding a weapon, of course.

So yes, you can dual wield spiked gauntlets, by RAW, as far as I can tell. The main problem is that since a MAGIC spiked gauntlet takes up the "hands" item slot, you can only use one.

The good news is that since Brawler style was errated to give an enhancement bonus that stacks with spiked gauntlet's proficiency bonus, you can use a Magic Spiked Gauntlet on one hand and a non-magic on the other, and you always get the Enhancement bonus granted by the class feature for both on attack rolls (though the off-hand spiked gauntlet will deal significantly less damage and won't have a critical bonus).

So, to summarize, as I'm reading it you can dual-wield spiked gauntlets and you are considered to also have BOTH hands free. Incidentally this means that not only do you still qualify for all brawler features while dual wielding, but you can actually grab two creatures at once.

ShaggyMarco
2010-08-18, 05:46 AM
Well, I had planned on multi-classing monk to get proficient with Ki Focuses and not bother with magic gauntlets AT ALL. That way I could still have magic gloves, enhancement bonuses to both of my attacks and damage, and only have to purchase 1 attack enhancement item.

I am still interested to hear where Kurald Galain got the impression that Spiked Gauntlet implied both gauntlets.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-18, 06:06 AM
I am still interested to hear where Kurald Galain got the impression that Spiked Gauntlet implied both gauntlets.
The fact that you get one "hands slot" item, rather than two, and that pretty much every reference to gloves or gauntlets describes them as pairs (e.g. PHB 247, and the description for the SG item which says "These gauntlets are specially fitted with metal spikes").

I think it's pretty silly to simultaneously qualify as "wielding a weapon" and "not wielding a weapon", even when RAW may technically be interpreted that way. D&D is not written as a legal text.

Nu
2010-08-18, 06:16 AM
The fact that you get one "hands slot" item, rather than two, and that pretty much every reference to gloves or gauntlets describes them as pairs (e.g. PHB 247, and the description for the SG item which says "These gauntlets are specially fitted with metal spikes").

I can see that argument. Though there doesn't seem to be anything that specifically states this, and they are one-handed weapons. I'd expect them to be listed as a two-handed or double weapon if they were meant to come as a pair.


I think it's pretty silly to simultaneously qualify as "wielding a weapon" and "not wielding a weapon", even when RAW may technically be interpreted that way. D&D is not written as a legal text.

Martial Power 2 is pretty clear on the fact that a hand equipped with a spiked gauntlet is still a free hand, mostly to allow to you still make grabs with it. There's a sidebar on page 6 devoted to this.

ShaggyMarco
2010-08-18, 07:49 AM
The fact that you get one "hands slot" item, rather than two, and that pretty much every reference to gloves or gauntlets describes them as pairs (e.g. PHB 247, and the description for the SG item which says "These gauntlets are specially fitted with metal spikes").

I think it's pretty silly to simultaneously qualify as "wielding a weapon" and "not wielding a weapon", even when RAW may technically be interpreted that way. D&D is not written as a legal text.

Possible counter-arguments:
1. Magic Shields count as your "arms slot" item, but only go on one arm. The same way that a magical spiked gauntlet would count as your hands slot item, but only go on one hand.

2. I checked the other weapon descriptions. All but two are singular, true. That said, the Talenta Boomerang description also says "These weapons are common..." Since I don't expect the boomerangs come in sets, I suspect this simply implies that they aren't careful when writing the non-rules flavor text.

I'm not trying to be overly legalistic, I am trying to make sure that the intention of spiked gauntlets is, in fact, to be both wielding a weapon and fighting unarmed at the same time.

Nu
2010-08-18, 09:05 PM
By the way, I don't think the monk multiclass feat will actually let you use a Ki Focus for everything. The feat itself says only for monk powers and monk paragon path powers. Unless, of course, you have some kind of houserule for implements that would allow that (which seems semi-common).

ShaggyMarco
2010-08-19, 07:32 AM
Is applying the enhancement bonus of the ki focus to any weapon you are proficient with not a feature of Ki focuses?

Or is that just a class feature of the two ki-focus using classes that happens to be shared and can't be gained via multi-class?