Non-magic Blue Mage

[DemLep]

I have seen ports of FF's Blue mage into D&D, notably 3.5. So I'm wondering if such a class could be made balance, but not a mage. Something more of a fighter variant, base class or PrC. I say fighter variant as in ability to gain feats; "Sunder my weapon? Well that's a nice trick." I don't mean this like the chameleon class, at least as far as I understand it, the feat/ability would have to be used on them successfully without dieing, before they learned it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

My DM designed a blue magic for my lizardman fighter[which I get on top of being a fighter]. Its not so much a class as it is raising the tier of the fighter class.

The basic run down is each power takes a certain number of BMP.
My BMP is equal to my HD+con modifier, most abilities are at will such as the breath weapon.
Its based in the FFIX blue magic of eating certain foes and gaining powers. I suggested the idea to my DM and he thought it was hilarious enough to add.

I'll re-post the stuff here.
Chromatic Flavor[3 BMP]
Acquired: Eating a true dragon
Benefit: I pick one type of chromatic dragon In this case my only option currently is black as I haven't eaten any other kind of dragon.

I gain resistance to acid 5 and water breathing, different colors provide different abilities. I can only manifest one flavor at a time, the flavor also alters my scale color to that of the dragon.

Chimeric Breath: {2BMP]
Requirements: Chromatic Flavor
Food: I ate a Chimera
Benefit: I gain a breath weapon that deals 3d8 points of damage, reflex for half (Constitution based.) in either a 20ft cone or a 40ft line, shape and damage determined by my chromatic flavor.
I can use the breath weapon every 1d4 as a standard action OR[and this is truly awesome] in place of my bite attack during a full attack routine.

Abundant Eyes:{2BMP]
Food: I ate a beholder[really hard to cook the roast kept trying to float away]
Benefit: I sprout eyes in the back of my head, +2 to search and spot checks and I can't be blanked except my a rogue 5 levels higher then me.

Float[2 BMP]
Food: Also Beholder
Benefit, I gain a fly speed of 20ft with perfect maneuverability, so long as I can hold my breath.

Stunning Croak[1 BMP]
Food: Slaad, [slaad salad to be precise]
1/day I can emit a croak that stuns all with in 20ft for 1d3 rounds fort negates. Constitution based..

Three Heads[4 BMP, 3 corruption]
Food: Acquired from that same Chimera
Benefit: I grow two more heads one ram and one lion, each head can make an additional secondary attack for 1d8 points of damage

Dragon Wings[3 BMP, 2 Corruption
Food; Once again that dragon I ate
Requirements: Chromatic Flavor
Benefit: I grow a pair of dragonic wings and can fly at a speed of 60ft with average maneuverability.
*Gained these powers at the same time I got a couple feats, naturally one of them was hover*

Skin of the Mage Hunter 5 BMP, 1 Corruption]
Food: I ate a Raksasha
Benefit: SR of 5+HD/class,
I can increase the SR by 1 to a maximum of +10 (15+HD) for 1 additional corruption per point.

Spirit Casting: {1BMP 1 Corruption]
Pick a sorcerer spell of 3rd levle or lower I can cast it 1/day with a CL equal to my HD -4. (I have the mage slayer feat).
I can pick this ability more then once.

Burrowing[2 BMP]
I gain a burrow speed of 10ft

Now what is corruption I'm sure you'll ask? you see I gained these powers by becoming the new prison for an immortal dracolich who needs no phylactery to rejuvenate himself.

A corruption check goes as followers (1d20+corruption score). The score resets at the start of each day unless I'm dead in which case it continues to grow.

A Corruption check is triggered if,
an arcane spellcaster dies within 30ft of me,
I suffer more then 50 points of damage in a single attack.
I fail a will save vs a fear effect,
I witness a traumatic event, such as the death of a friend.
I die (+10 to the corruption check)
Each day the sunsets I remain dead.

Corruption Check Results
20: I gain 1 corruption
40: Dracrylikou awakens!, which is bad, not end of the world bad but bad, for me and the party.
Thankfully unless I abuse certain powers like skin of the mage hunter or spirit casting its unlikely I'll roll a corruption check of 40. Unless I remain dead for a very extended period of time.

But essentially how the DM set it up is he controls what powers I can gain. Everything above was from something I had already eaten before the powers manifested. I hope to eat a manticore and gain some tail spikes!

[Project_Mayhem]

I can't be blanked except my a rogue 5 levels higher then me.

Heh. Even people with a strong inclination to snub you have to at the very least nod in recognition.

[Admiral Squish]

...Aaaand now I have to make a class along those lines.

[EdroGrimshell]

...Aaaand now I have to make a class along those lines.

I've been waiting for one that wasn't a mage or manifester. Can't wait to see it.

[DemLep]

@Lord Vukodlak: Interesting but not quite what I meant.

@Admiral Squish: Cool if I think of anything or get time to dig up stuff that might help I'll post it here.

[Admiral Squish]

Hmmm... OmNomNomicon is taken as a thread name, isn't it?

[DemLep]

I honestly didn't think to call it that. Though I like the name.

[Admiral Squish]

It'd fit. Pretty much EVERYTHING in the SRD Monster list is getting one or two dishes that can be prepared. Of course, there are exceptions for constructs (Inedible), Undead (Not... Fleshy enough? They don't really work off the power of their BODIES so much as negative energy), and Outsiders (Not sure, but I think they just poof back to their home plane when killed.)

Then there will be a gourmand class, probably some kind of half-progression version that's even more martial, and maybe some kind of eater/arcanist hybrid.

Also, I'm thinking the eating of humanoid/monstrous humanoid/giant/goblin would be thought of as cannibalism, and have similar connotations to necromancy.

[DemLep]

It literally eats them? Interesting...

[EdroGrimshell]

This may help (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61312)

[DemLep]

This is the Blue Mage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19526914/New_Class_-_Blue_Mage!) I was think of. Only more of a martial class instead of a spellcaster. If that helps. Still I want to see this eating monsters class.

[EdroGrimshell]

This is the Blue Mage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19526914/New_Class_-_Blue_Mage!) I was think of. Only more of a martial class instead of a spellcaster. If that helps. Still I want to see this eating monsters class.

Link to the full write-up (http://web.archive.org/web/20070221040337/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=137596)

[Admiral Squish]

When you said 'blue mage', I thought more along the lines of Quina (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Quina_Quen)

[erikun]

There are two big hurdles to making a Blue Mage, from what I've seen. The first is that some abilities just don't make sense. This is especially true with treating abilities as psudo-feats: Just how does the fighter use Swallow Whole or Flyby Attack? The second is overpowering abilities, specifically Wish in any capability.

Of course, your DM could only allow specific abilities to be taken and used, but then you basically have an Erudite. It might work for (Ex) abilities, but you still have fighters who shoot spines and walk through shadows.

How do you want your Blue Mage to run? Do you want them to keep all their abilities after learning, effectively gaining new feats? Do you want them to keep their abilities until their next sleep, gaining unlimited uses but only for a day? Do you want them to, perhaps, be limited to only memorizing a few "spells" with no restrictions on how they can be used?

[DemLep]

I have never played FFIX, so I know nothing of that character. Actually most of the FF's I play more than one or two battles without getting bored don't have a Blue Mage in it.


There are two big hurdles to making a Blue Mage, from what I've seen. The first is that some abilities just don't make sense. This is especially true with treating abilities as psudo-feats: Just how does the fighter use Swallow Whole or Flyby Attack? The second is overpowering abilities, specifically Wish in any capability.

Of course, your DM could only allow specific abilities to be taken and used, but then you basically have an Erudite. It might work for (Ex) abilities, but you still have fighters who shoot spines and walk through shadows.

The feat/special ability would have to directly effect the "Blue Knight" and its affect would have to be successful. Now I understand that this would not eliminate all the problems, but it should limit it some what. Feat like TWF would be an example of a feat the class would be in capable of absorbing, because the feat is not directly used on the character. As for abilities that the character in question could have no why of during, such as Fly by Attack without flight. The character would either get and not be able to use it or just not get it. This class should have no spells.


How do you want your Blue Mage to run? Do you want them to keep all their abilities after learning, effectively gaining new feats? Do you want them to keep their abilities until their next sleep, gaining unlimited uses but only for a day? Do you want them to, perhaps, be limited to only memorizing a few "spells" with no restrictions on how they can be used?

I've been thinking about this. I think either limiting the number of feats/special abilities that could be gained by level. Maybe something along the lines of 2 abilities * martial level. Or limiting how long they can "hold on to" the ability by level. Something like 1 week * martial level. Formulas to be changed to what would be balanced. In the first one they could gain only a limited number of feats/special abilities total per level, but would keep them forever, however the second option allows unlimited number of abilities, but each one only for so long.

Either way they shouldn't just gain the ability. Like I've said before the feat/special ability would have to directly effect the character, no loop holes for feats/special abilities that indirectly effect the character. But just that shouldn't be enough, I'm think a Knowledge(Tactics) check DC 10 + Level of the character that used it (+ or * representing the difficulty of the move). The check representing your knowledge of tactics and combat vs. your opponents knowledge and the difficulty of the move. Not sure how to right feats/special abilities sense they do not have levels like spells. The character shouldn't have to learn the ability if s/he doesn't wish too. Anything else I can do to help?

Oh for a name what about the Adaptive Fighter or for a more modern name the Street Brawler. I'm not really good at names, but I'm trying to think of something non-FF related that describes the class in one or two words. Also I see the class as a base class, but do you guys think it would fair better a PrC?

[erikun]

I have never played FFIX, so I know nothing of that character. Actually most of the FF's I play more than one or two battles without getting bored don't have a Blue Mage in it.
Quina from FFIX works a bit like Pokemon. You need to weaken an enemy down to low life, then use Quina's Eat command on the monster. She'll gulp them down and learn the Blue Magic.

I take it they were more referring to the eating-for-learning aspect than actually trying to swallow opponents whole for magic powers, though. :smalltongue:

--

As for the rest, the name would depend on how the abilities ultimately work. If it is something where they memorize only a few, but can swap them out, then Adaptive Fighter makes more sense. If it is something where they can memorize whatever they want for only a week, then it indicates a more magical bend.

Whenever I think of a Blue Mage, I think of a class that resembles a Blue Mage/Mimic. You see a magic you can learn, you roll a knowledge check to recognize it. From there, you can either "cast" it, causing it to disappear from your memory, or hang onto it until your evening rest, committing it to your permanent memory.

You might do something similar for your Adaptive Fighter. They can "memorize" a total of 2 + 1 per 4 levels "floating feats" at a time. In order to learn a new one, they need to see it in active use (so yes Two-Weapon Fighting, no Alertness) and roll a Knowledge check to recognize it. Then, at their next 8-hour rest, they can meditate and choose to commit it to memory. They can only "recognize" one ability at a time, and if they already have all their "floating feats" filled, they need to forget one to memorize a new ability.

Of course, not all the "floating feats" need to be feats. Abilities like Pounce, Rend, and Uncanny Dodge would qualify. You might want to specify what is or is not a good idea of a "floating feat", and for that matter, come up with some better names. The recognize-memorize difference will be important, so you don't want them having the same name.

As a PrC? I think it has potential as a base class, both for dips and for 20 levels. You might not want to give as many "floating feats" up front, or give them at a higher rate of progression, to avoid everyone from just taking a level or two in the base class.

[DemLep]

Quina from FFIX works a bit like Pokemon. You need to weaken an enemy down to low life, then use Quina's Eat command on the monster. She'll gulp them down and learn the Blue Magic.

I take it they were more referring to the eating-for-learning aspect than actually trying to swallow opponents whole for magic powers, though. :smalltongue:

Really cause it would be awesome if it actually ate the "monster".


As for the rest, the name would depend on how the abilities ultimately work. If it is something where they memorize only a few, but can swap them out, then Adaptive Fighter makes more sense. If it is something where they can memorize whatever they want for only a week, then it indicates a more magical bend.

True I was just throwing things out there, so I could stop calling it a mage since it doesn't/shouldn't have any magic.


Whenever I think of a Blue Mage, I think of a class that resembles a Blue Mage/Mimic. You see a magic you can learn, you roll a knowledge check to recognize it. From there, you can either "cast" it, causing it to disappear from your memory, or hang onto it until your evening rest, committing it to your permanent memory.

That makes sense and is similar to what I was thinking.


You might do something similar for your Adaptive Fighter. They can "memorize" a total of 2 + 1 per 4 levels "floating feats" at a time. In order to learn a new one, they need to see it in active use (so yes Two-Weapon Fighting, no Alertness) and roll a Knowledge check to recognize it. Then, at their next 8-hour rest, they can meditate and choose to commit it to memory. They can only "recognize" one ability at a time, and if they already have all their "floating feats" filled, they need to forget one to memorize a new ability.

So would they keep the feats that are memorized forever without it taking up a floating-feat slot or would it still take up a slot? Otherwise I agree with this.


Of course, not all the "floating feats" need to be feats. Abilities like Pounce, Rend, and Uncanny Dodge would qualify. You might want to specify what is or is not a good idea of a "floating feat", and for that matter, come up with some better names. The recognize-memorize difference will be important, so you don't want them having the same name.

Agreed


As a PrC? I think it has potential as a base class, both for dips and for 20 levels. You might not want to give as many "floating feats" up front, or give them at a higher rate of progression, to avoid everyone from just taking a level or two in the base class.

Maybe make so you don't gain them with levels outside the class? Or make it like Spell progression and martial classes that get bonus feats can spend that feat in the next progression without taking a level?

Also I was thinking high HD, High Fort, Medium armor, and simple weapons. for the class features. He should also depending on the rate of progression probably get other special abilities.

[EdroGrimshell]

Someone called it a blue knight before, that actually sounds pretty good for this idea. You could also use azure knight, another good one.

[DemLep]

Someone called it a blue knight before, that actually sounds pretty good for this idea. You could also use azure knight, another good one.

Oh really?



...
The feat/special ability would have to directly effect the "Blue Knight"...

Oh wait, I remember now.:smalltongue:

I was trying to make it sound less related to FF, but the Azure Knight does have a nice ring to it.

[erikun]

So would they keep the feats that are memorized forever without it taking up a floating-feat slot or would it still take up a slot? Otherwise I agree with this.
They would keep them memorized. Compare it to a Fighter. The fighter gets 11 feats over 20 levels, which don't change once selected. The Azurian Adaptive, or whatever you call it, would have 7 feats over 20 levels, which they could change over a few weeks by observing the right creatures.

And to be honest, 11 feats isn't much for the only abilities of a class.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by not gaining the abilities outside the class. You can't watch a tiger and learn how to pounce because you took a level of rogue last time? The knowledge skill required won't necessarily be on the other class list, and you will want higher ranks in knowledge to grab abilities from higher CR/HD monsters. If you're worried, though, change it to one slot at 1st level, one slot at 2nd level, and one slot at every level multiple of 4. It gives the same number of slots, with less front-loading.

The class seems to need something more... Something like the ranger's favored enemy and/or the Knowlege Devotion feat would fit a class that rolls knowledge checks to learn about the enemy. Perhaps a Creature Lore ability, similar to the Bardic Knowledge, except limited to creatures?

[Maerok]

This reminds me of some of the work Fax did to expand the capabilities of the spellthief. (Link) (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Feature_Stealing_Feats) Reverting the spellthief's ability from an active attack to a passive defense could lead the way to a working Blue Mage. Vanilla spellthief could work if the DM can assign reasonable effective spell levels to creatures' abilities, which wouldn't be too much trouble.

[DemLep]

Okay so memorized abilities would take up a slot. 7 total slots seems low. Like you said even the 11 bonus feats of the fighter is low.

I agree the class would need something more, maybe something like the lore abilities of the loremaster except not used on magic and on monsters or fighting techniques instead. Also when I say monsters I mean all races to include the basic races.