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Qminster
2010-08-17, 02:37 PM
are rogue themed characters worth the investment post 20? or does that off the shelf spellcaster with his arsanal of spells just blow the guy away with narry a though?
Ie laugh at rogue attempting to skewer the mage, contingency spell, then pop up, timestop zap, zap zap and loot the rogue corpse?

Emperor Ing
2010-08-17, 02:41 PM
The consensus is that Rogue is good for extremely low level games, but level 20+, if you are using Rogue, you're gonna have to take some ranks in Profession (Benchwarmer) because whatever you will be able to do, Beguilers or Factotums can do 5x better, and the Wizard can do 50x better in 100 different ways.

PId6
2010-08-17, 02:51 PM
The consensus is that Rogue is good for extremely low level games, but level 20+, if you are using Rogue, you're gonna have to take some ranks in Profession (Benchwarmer) because whatever you will be able to do, Beguilers or Factotums can do 5x better, and the Wizard can do 50x better in 100 different ways.
Wizard does it better is true, but you can say that about any class short of T1. Factotums and beguilers, however, while they are more versatile, fall short of being strictly better than rogue. A well-built rogue can deal far more damage than either of them can ever do, and is hardly obsolete at higher levels (in T3-ish games) if built correctly.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-17, 04:25 PM
You'll need more abilities than straight Rogue can give you, but those don't necessarily need to be from spellcasting classes. The Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight of Shadowdancers and Assassins, with Darkstalker, means you'll be better than invisible (because See Invisibility and True Seeing won't find you).

As a Rogue you've got the class abilities to acquire considerably more than the standard Wealth by Level average. If you don't take advantage of opportunities to get extra wealth you'll be crippling your character. Gear (of all sorts, including nonmagical) is critical to a Rogue. A simple wand of Sniper's Shot lets you sneak attack at any distance (not just within 30'). The cost is only 15 gp per round of use, so at Epic levels it would be foolhardy not to have one at hand.

If you have to go up against a spellcaster, your best bet is always going to be surprise and enough sneak attack damage in a single round, while they're flat-footed, to kill them. Your next best bet is via nonmagical gear and a scroll of Antimagic Field. Note that grafts, including those that boost your abilities and let you fly, are nonmagical. If you can get up close (and you should have the sneaky skills to do so) and attack while preventing them from using magic, you can defeat them.

Keld Denar
2010-08-17, 04:42 PM
Unfortunately, as a spellcaster, its remarkably easy to get immunity to precision damage. Elemental Body is HOURS per level. Veil of Undeath is 10 min/level, but Extended lasts for a considerable amount of time.

Most of the Rogue tricks to get around precision immunity don't work on someone who is fortified. The CChamp one (which is nearly identical to the Dungeonscape one) only works if you flank, which isn't always an option when you surprise someone. Death Strike Bracers also work, but deny you of the swift action you'd use on something like Sniper's Shot. Weapon Augment Crystals won't work because even if you count as a creature type, you aren't actually that type.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-17, 06:42 PM
Unfortunately, as a spellcaster, its remarkably easy to get immunity to precision damage. Elemental Body is HOURS per level. Veil of Undeath is 10 min/level ...
Neither of these make you immune to sneak attack.
Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks.

You are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning, and are not subject to extra damage from critical hits or flanking.
While the spell lasts, you have immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death, extra damage from critical hits, nonlethal damage, death from massive damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, damage to physical ability scores, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it is harmless or affects objects.
The benefit from these spells only means that if someone rolls a critical against you when they're making a sneak attack they won't get to multiply their Craven damage. Contrast this with the specification of the construct and undead types:
Not subject to critical hits ...

The CChamp one (which is nearly identical to the Dungeonscape one) only works if you flank Depends which ability you're referring to. Death's Ruin is the Complete Champion ACF that lets you sneak attack all creatures with the undead type, without requiring flanking. So that covers liches and the Necropolitan template. The Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) is rather clearer than the Dungeonscape non-Lightbringer Penetrating Strike that it will overcome fortification, but you're right that that requires flanking. However, a Quickened scroll to summon a bunch of flankers is trivial to obtain at Epic levels.