Hooray for warlocks! [3.5]

[Darklord Xavez]

The purpose of this thread is to list your favorite combinations of warlock abilities/feats/other things. For example:

Quicken spell-like ability (walk unseen): Since you can use a quicken spell/ability in the same round as a non-quickened one, you can start out invisible, use your eldritch blast, and instantly turn invisible again, such as that people only see you for a moment. Works best with eldritch spear, because you can do it from even farther away.

A similar combo involves path of shadow (aka shadow walk). You can go from shadow to shadow instead of moving normally, staying in cover the entire time.

What are your favorites?
-Xavez

[Keld Denar]

Quicken SLA only works 3/day, BTW...

My favorite is Eldritch Glaive. Its both powerful and awesome. Its big, angry, green, and deadly.

I also like the combo of Cleric/Warlock/EldritchDisciple with Divine Defiance (FCII) and either of the Dispel Magic invocations (tricked out with Inquisition domain + Dispelling Cord) so that you can trade TU attempts for immediate action dispel based counterspells a very large number of times per day. Nothing says control like playing a game of Mother-May-I with your opponents spells...

[Tokuhara]

Thri-Kreen (non-psi version)
Warlock/Binder/Hellfire Warlock

4 Hellfire Blasts/round

[Keld Denar]

How? You don't get one per arm set...you get one per standard action. Where are you getting extra standard actions from?

[Diarmuid]

Since I dont know anything about Binders and I know the other two classes could max out at 2 EB/round (Quicken SLA) 3/day I'm going to assume it's a Bonder thing.

[Greenish]

Since I dont know anything about Binders and I know the other two classes could max out at 2 EB/round (Quicken SLA) 3/day I'm going to assume it's a Bonder thing.Binder is there to negate the Con penalty from Hellfire Blasts.

[PId6]

Blend into Shadows [DotU] + the Darkness invocation works together to let you Hide in Plain Sight as a swift action unlimited times per day. Very useful.

[Urpriest]

Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast + Eldritch Disciple's Healing Blast. Only the latter counts as an eldritch essence. Blast your allies with healing hellfire!

[PId6]

Also, the Nosomatic Chirurgeon PrC from Dragonmarked lets you convert SLAs into Inflict spells with a one level dip (that advances casting), letting you easily qualify for PrCs with spellcasting prereqs. The PrC's prereqs are extremely harsh though.

[gallagher]

i like making a rogue-ish warlock, getting spider walk, darkness and devils sight are very useful to surviving.

[Thiyr]

Still a fan of a warlock with Arcane Mastery and 5 levels in Escalation Mage. Take 10 on caster level checks is good. Being able to quicken SLAs as much as you want by making a caster level check = 16+ (twice spell level), failure slowing you isn't bad. Being able to garunteed quicken a number of useful low level invocations (EB, walk unseen, baleful utterance) without a chance of failing is pretty nice. Free empowering or widening isn't bad either. Only problem is that it's setting specific to Ebberon, but if that's not your concern, it's a decent prc to fill out warlock with.

[Kylarra]

The commoner/warlock that reanimates chickens and then has them explode like little bombs (also healing from those).

[Starbuck_II]

Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast + Eldritch Disciple's Healing Blast. Only the latter counts as an eldritch essence. Blast your allies with healing hellfire!

I love that one (hellfire isn't evil but sounds like it).

What is the minimum level for doing that?

[Urpriest]

I love that one (hellfire isn't evil but sounds like it).

What is the minimum level for doing that?

Well I like something like Warlock 4/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 2/Hellfire Warlock 3. You might be able to get it a little earlier, but the combo's online in this build by level 10.

Edit: actually that's the lowest possible level to do it, since Hellfire Warlock requires 12 ranks in a skill.

[Dusk Eclipse]

How viable would it be to combine the eldritch claws feat from a dragon magazine and a race capable of taking rapidstike? combine with hellfire to get ridiculous damage.

mmm might need a gish prestige class to bget the necessary BAB (or give Warlock levels to a dragon)

[Halae]

How viable would it be to combine the eldritch claws feat from a dragon magazine and a race capable of taking rapidstike? combine with hellfire to get ridiculous damage.

mmm might need a gish prestige class to bget the necessary BAB (or give Warlock levels to a dragon)

That's why people invented the hellfire glaivelock, to be a miniature hellfire supernova.

[Keld Denar]

This issue with Rapid Strike and Imp Rapid Strike is their rediculously high BAB requirements. If you are dipping a lot of classes that don't have full BAB (Warlock, Binder, UrPriest, ED, HFW, etc), you probably won't get to +10 BAB until like, level 15 or 16, and you'll probably never get to +15 BAB.

Plus, you'd have to be Elan, Synad, or Dragonwraught Kobold, or something with an LA.

[Tokiko Mima]

The Eldritch Glaive invocation, and a wand of Divine Power can be an awesome combo, since the number of Glaive attacks you get are based on your BAB which Divine Power increases.

Every warlock, as soon as they can fly, should take Flyby Attack. Begin every round behind hard cover, then move to the next bit of cover, firing as you go. This will, of course, result in your foes readying actions to attack as soon as you appear. Now you just wait behind cover, knowing that they are tied up with their readied action while you can do whatever you want, behind cover. It's a great way to help your allies immensely without making it seem like you're doing much.

[Prime32]

How viable would it be to combine the eldritch claws feat from a dragon magazine and a race capable of taking rapidstike? combine with hellfire to get ridiculous damage.

mmm might need a gish prestige class to bget the necessary BAB (or give Warlock levels to a dragon)Better yet, combine them with Beast Strike (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Beast_Strike) and multiclass with unarmed swordsage for Tiger Claw maneuvers.

Works best in gestalt, or with possession, symbiotic, etc. to combine with a more martial character.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Better yet, combine them with Beast Strike (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Beast_Strike) and multiclass with unarmed swordsage for Tiger Claw maneuvers.

Works best in gestalt, or with possession, symbiotic, etc. to combine with a more martial character.

Hmmmm works better....

[thompur]

Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast + Eldritch Disciple's Healing Blast. Only the latter counts as an eldritch essence. Blast your allies with healing hellfire!

I know that Hellfire Blast isn't identified specifically in the text as an eldritch essence, but the wording of it is almost identical to other essences. I'm AFMB at the moment, but I remember it saying "you can change your eldritch blast into a Hellfire Blast". A similar phrase is used for every essence. I think it's intended to be an essence.

On the otherhand, if my DM said otherwise, I'd have no compunctions in exploiting it.;-P

[true_shinken]

Check my sig. Real men are melee warlocks. Claws and grappling fro everyone!

[Furnok]

I love the one that gives +6 to Bluff, Dip, and Intimidate. My Dm isn’t a huge dungeon crawl type guy he is more of a political intrigue DM so I love having at first level a +15 in those checks.

[DarthCyberWolf]

Hmm... how would Hellfire Blast + Healing Blast + Eldritch Glaive work? Would it even?

[Darklord Xavez]

Quicken SLA only works 3/day, BTW...

My favorite is Eldritch Glaive. Its both powerful and awesome. Its big, angry, green, and deadly.

I also like the combo of Cleric/Warlock/EldritchDisciple with Divine Defiance (FCII) and either of the Dispel Magic invocations (tricked out with Inquisition domain + Dispelling Cord) so that you can trade TU attempts for immediate action dispel based counterspells a very large number of times per day. Nothing says control like playing a game of Mother-May-I with your opponents spells...

I'm still not sure what eldritch glaive is. Please explain?

Also, you're right about the Quicken SLA being 3/day. But I wouldn't really need to quicken it every time.

Another combo I thought of was Devil's Sight and Darkness. Devil's Sight lets you see for 30 feet in magical or nonmagical darkness, so you use darkness on some important spot, move to that spot, and try to lure an enemy in. Since they can't see and you can, and because eldritch blast makes no sound, they are an easy target. If you darkness is dispelled, activate it again next round.
-Xavez

[Keld Denar]

I Power Attack the life into you! RAWR!

WHIRLWIND ATTACK OF HEALING!

EG is in Dragon Magic. Its a full round action, but as part of that, it makes a glaive out of eldritch energy that persists until right before your next round. Its treated in every way as a glaive (has reach), except for the damage is as your EB damage. Since its a melee weapon, you can apply feats and stuff that normally adjust melee weapons to your EG, like Power Attack.

EDIT: Why wouldn't you just use your darkness SLA on yourself, that way it moves with you? Then you just chase your foes down.

[Darklord Xavez]

I love the one that gives +6 to Bluff, Dip, and Intimidate. My Dm isn’t a huge dungeon crawl type guy he is more of a political intrigue DM so I love having at first level a +15 in those checks.

The +6 jump/climb/tumble ability, Leaps and Bounds, is also cool.
-Xavez

[Greenish]

The +6 jump/climb/tumble ability, Leaps and Bounds, is also cool.Well, permanent flight from level 6 does devaluate that a bit.

[dextercorvia]

The Eldritch Glaive invocation, and a wand of Divine Power can be an awesome combo, since the number of Glaive attacks you get are based on your BAB which Divine Power increases.

Every warlock, as soon as they can fly, should take Flyby Attack. Begin every round behind hard cover, then move to the next bit of cover, firing as you go. This will, of course, result in your foes readying actions to attack as soon as you appear. Now you just wait behind cover, knowing that they are tied up with their readied action while you can do whatever you want, behind cover. It's a great way to help your allies immensely without making it seem like you're doing much.

Is there a version of Flyby attack that doesn't require nonmagical flight? Realmshelp says no, but it isn't perfect.

[Urpriest]

I Power Attack the life into you! RAWR!

WHIRLWIND ATTACK OF HEALING!

EG is in Dragon Magic. Its a full round action, but as part of that, it makes a glaive out of eldritch energy that persists until right before your next round. Its treated in every way as a glaive (has reach), except for the damage is as your EB damage. Since its a melee weapon, you can apply feats and stuff that normally adjust melee weapons to your EG, like Power Attack.


Actually, it isn't treated in any way as a glaive, it just looks like one. The only sentence to support the interpretation that it even acts like a melee weapon at all (beyond the opportunity attacks and iteratives mentioned in the text) says that you make a touch attack as if using a reach weapon. It doesn't specify whether it's one-handed, two-handed, or light (a reach weapon can be any of these, look at the whip). It's rather dubious whether you can Power Attack with it at all. That said, it's a common interpretation, and the Healing+Hellfire+Glaive part of it sans Power Attack almost certainly works.

[PId6]

Is there a version of Flyby attack that doesn't require nonmagical flight? Realmshelp says no, but it isn't perfect.
I don't see "nonmagical fly speed" as part of its prereqs (Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack)). :smallconfused:

[Darklord Xavez]

Well, permanent flight from level 6 does devaluate that a bit.

Permanent flight at level 6 screws up the game a lot, as does the infinite damage machine capability of the warlock.

Speaking of which, a warlock could surpass most other classes combat ability by level 6 due to the fact that they deal 3d6 or more with each attack they make, they don't have to be in melee range to make their attacks, they make ranged touch attacks, they can fly, and they can also possibly affect multiple creatures with one attack (via eldritch chain). Not to mention EG.
-Xavez

[Greenish]

Permanent flight at level 6 screws up the game a lot, as does the infinite damage machine capability of the warlockWizards/druids get to fly earlier, and every class can deal infinite damage (as long as you play a race that won't die of old age).

[Starbuck_II]

Another combo I thought of was Devil's Sight and Darkness. Devil's Sight lets you see for 30 feet in magical or nonmagical darkness, so you use darkness on some important spot, move to that spot, and try to lure an enemy in. Since they can't see and you can, and because eldritch blast makes no sound, they are an easy target. If you darkness is dispelled, activate it again next round.
-Xavez

Darkness doesn't block version. Darkness isn't dark (just sorta dark). It only causes concealment (that Devil's sight removes for you).

[Vizzerdrix]

Darklord Xavez, I'm not seeing it. Eldritch Blast is only 1/round. Rogues can do far more damage than that at fifth level without cheese. even a fighter is well able to out gun the warlock at this level.And flight is useful, but not game breaking by any means. Certainly nothing a well placed harpoon or alchemist arrow won't stop in a jiffy.

[Greenish]

Darklord Xavez, I'm not seeing it. Eldritch Blast is only 1/round. Rogues can do far more damage than that at fifth level without cheese. even a fighter is well able to out gun the warlock at this level.And flight is useful, but not game breaking by any means. Certainly nothing a well placed harpoon or alchemist arrow won't stop in a jiffy.He's working his way through rookie mistakes, like "monks are strong" or "warlocks are overpowered".

Any bets on the next one? :smalltongue:
(No offense meant.)

[Amphetryon]

He's working his way through rookie mistakes, like "monks are strong" or "warlocks are overpowered".

Any bets on the next one? :smalltongue:
(No offense meant.)
Dibs on "TWF is awesome!" :smallbiggrin: I keed, I keed.

[Vizzerdrix]

Dibs on "TWF is awesome!" :smallbiggrin: I keed, I keed.

It is awesome. Just not any good :smalltongue:

[thompur]

Yeah. The Warlocks "power level" goes up or down depending on encounters per day. If you only have one or two combats per day, they're low tier 4, three to four, solid tier 4, five or more, and they can reach tier 3, while spell slingers are wishing they hadn't gone nova against the Beholder and his minions in the last room.
The thing you have to remember about Warlocks is that, with one or two exceptions, all their non-combat powers only help them. It's a rather selfish class. But I love it!!:smallwink:

[BladeofOblivion]

Infinite Flight Isn't Gamebreaking, but It can make a Warlock Really hard to kill. Like everything else, the only thing that a Warlock has any real trouble with is enemy casters.

Oh, and Fell flight + Entropic Warding is a decent Defense against most enemies and is available at level 6. If you take Baleful Utterance too, you can cross archers off the threat list because you can Shatter their bows. Melee isn't a problem because you are flying, unless the melee guy is also flying. Perfect Maneuverability is very nice though.

[Greenish]

Infinite Flight Isn't Gamebreaking, but It can make a Warlock Really hard to kill. Like everything else, the only thing that a Warlock has any real trouble with is enemy casters.

Oh, and Fell flight + Entropic Warding is a decent Defense against most enemies and is available at level 6. If you take Baleful Utterance too, you can cross archers off the threat list because you can Shatter their bows. Melee isn't a problem because you are flying, unless the melee guy is also flying. Perfect Maneuverability is very nice though.Level 6 archers ought to have magic bows, already. Besides, if your allies can't fly, they will be attacked instead of you, and the net effect will be the same (except that what would otherwise be TPK would only be TPK-1).

[BladeofOblivion]

There is nothing stopping a warlock from taking Improved Sunder to blow up bows, is there?

And a chaotic evil Warlock cares about the team dying why?

[Greenish]

There is nothing stopping a warlock from taking Improved Sunder to blow up bows, is there?Nope. Though that involves going to melee, which kinda defeats the purpose.


And a chaotic evil Warlock cares about the team dying why?Oh, from character's point of view, it's wonderful (I wouldn't mind being able to fly constantly IRL), but it doesn't increase the warlock's usefulness in the fight.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah. The Warlocks "power level" goes up or down depending on encounters per day. If you only have one or two combats per day, they're low tier 4, three to four, solid tier 4, five or more, and they can reach tier 3, while spell slingers are wishing they hadn't gone nova against the Beholder and his minions in the last room.
The thing you have to remember about Warlocks is that, with one or two exceptions, all their non-combat powers only help them. It's a rather selfish class. But I love it!!:smallwink:
That's not how the tier system works. Warlocks are always T4 due to the tiny amount of tricks available to them.

[thompur]

That's not how the tier system works. Warlocks are always T4 due to the tiny amount of tricks available to them.

Sorry...They can SEEM like tier 3 when there are lots of encounters per day.(better?)

[Greenish]

Sorry...They can SEEM like tier 3 when there are lots of encounters per day.(better?)Nope. They will be more useful when there are several combat encounters each day. They don't "seem" any more versatile.

[Soranar]

I love warlocks for a few reasons:

unlike tier 1 and 2 classes (mostly straight casters), they're very easy to play. I often see tier 1 classes played down to tier 2, 3 or even less simply because their players don't take advantage of their class features properly (if at all) or simply make very bad decisions.

Warlocks are nearly foolproof (even with abysmal stats, bad feat choices, limited access to magic items and poor skillpoints distribution, it can always do something: blast for some damage and usually hit).

Most other classes can't say as much

They are heavily gimped if their stats aren't good, or if they make bad feat choices,or if their access to magic items (or scrolls) is limited, or if their equipment is taken from them (Ha ha I got your spellbook/weapon/holy symbol/magic clothes !)

And my all time favorite

Rust monster, run!

[true_shinken]

Level 6 archers ought to have magic bows, already. Besides, if your allies can't fly, they will be attacked instead of you, and the net effect will be the same (except that what would otherwise be TPK would only be TPK-1).

Shatter their quivers. Good luck getting all those arrows from the ground...

[BladeofOblivion]

Shatter their quivers. Good luck getting all those arrows from the ground...

That Works Too. Unless it's an Efficient Quiver, which gives them a save.

[Halae]

That Works Too. Unless it's an Efficient Quiver, which gives them a save.

but, even then, you can try again. That thing has to roll a 1 on its save eventually.

hmm... is it possible to sunder an arrow (or cast baleful utterance on it, of course) in mid flight if you ready an action?

[Krazddndfreek]

Nope. Though that involves going to melee, which kinda defeats the purpose.

Ranged Sunder, Complete Warrior :smallwink:

[thompur]

Ranged Sunder, Complete Warrior :smallwink:

Plus Hammer Blast from CM.

[Cyrion]

but, even then, you can try again. That thing has to roll a 1 on its save eventually.

hmm... is it possible to sunder an arrow (or cast baleful utterance on it, of course) in mid flight if you ready an action?

If you use IRL as a guideline, probably not. Having been shot (deliberately and voluntarily as part of a stunt) by an arrow, I can attest that they move quite quickly (and I had a readied action prepared which failed miserably). As a DM I'd probably rule that if it was being fired at you from less than 30 feet, no. More than that and I'd give you a Dex check, maybe DC 50 - range in feet.

[Darklord Xavez]

Wizards/druids get to fly earlier, and every class can deal infinite damage (as long as you play a race that won't die of old age).

I mean at a high rate. A fighter could deal a bit more than a warlock at that level, assuming a starting strength of 17 or 18 (+1 str @ 4th, 2d6+4 [greatsword] averages to 11), but the warlock can deal the same damage from 250 feet away if they take eldritch spear, and arcane spellcasters (the main damage-dealing spells are arcane) have a limited number of times per day they can use spells. The fighter/barbarian/whatever still would deal more damage, but would be less mobile (due to armor), and would have to close to melee range unless they had one heck of a composite bow.
-Xavez

[Tyndmyr]

They're also pretty awesome in E6. Unlimited flight alone is a huge boon at that level, and while it's not the only way to get that...it's by far the least painful.

[Greenish]

I mean at a high rate.Oh. I thought we were talking about warlocks.

[Darklord Xavez]

Oh. I thought we were talking about warlocks.

Which we are, I was just explaining one of my earlier theories which you questioned.
-Xavez

[Greenish]

Which we are, I was just explaining one of my earlier theories which you questioned.
-XavezWarlocks do deal a rather reliable trickle of damage, but by no means do they do it at "high rate"*.

One attack per round with no easy ways to boost it means that warlock's ability to deal "infinite damage" given enough time isn't really that powerful.

*[Edit]: Well, there are means to up the rate (glaive & hellfire), but the default EB is a tickle.

[Tyndmyr]

Default EB starts out good, but ends up soon becoming rather lackluster. Look at it this way...a blasting wizard will soon be doing 1d6*CL, without anything fancy at all. EB is weaker than that.

It can be terribly reliable, though. I do like that.

[true_shinken]

Plus Hammer Blast from CM.
You know what time it is?
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/NastyFO/HAMMERTIME.png

[thompur]

Come on True, you know that Parachute Pants are way overpowered and flat out banned at most tables. I believe that when Pun-Pun wears them, his power increases by, like 3 levels.:smallbiggrin:

[Darklord Xavez]

Warlocks do deal a rather reliable trickle of damage, but by no means do they do it at "high rate"*.

One attack per round with no easy ways to boost it means that warlock's ability to deal "infinite damage" given enough time isn't really that powerful.

*[Edit]: Well, there are means to up the rate (glaive & hellfire), but the default EB is a tickle.

Glaive, Hellfire, and two magic items (warlock's scepter and a certain amulet, both in Complete Arcane), that is.

Also, dealing 4d6 damage/round at 7th level is quite a lot, considering that it is usable at will.

None of what I have said have taken into account feats and/or invocations.
-Xavez
P.S. Tyndmyr explained my point equally well.

[thompur]

Glaive, Hellfire, and two magic items (warlock's scepter and a certain amulet, both in Complete Arcane), that is.

Also, dealing 4d6 damage/round at 7th level is quite a lot, considering that it is usable at will.
None of what I have said have taken into account feats and/or invocations.
-Xavez
P.S. Tyndmyr explained my point equally well.

Averaging 14hp damage/round ain't that impressive. Since it's a touch attack, you may be keeping up with the fighter, but the blaster caster is doing 24hp/attack. And most of the level appropriate beasties you'll be encountering have 3 to 7 times the hp that your blast does.

Warlocks are my favorite class, but not because they're awsome in battle.

By the by, The Chausible of Fell Power is a scarf.(I had never heard the word either, until I read CAr.)

[Greenish]

Also, dealing 4d6 damage/round at 7th level is quite a lot, considering that it is usable at will.Kinda like a caster with a reserve feat, except they also have spells.

And 14 damage per round isn't "quite a lot" at level 7, it's "not very much". Reliable, sure.

[Tinydwarfman]

Glaive, Hellfire, and two magic items (warlock's scepter and a certain amulet, both in Complete Arcane), that is.

Also, dealing 4d6 damage/round at 7th level is quite a lot, considering that it is usable at will.

None of what I have said have taken into account feats and/or invocations.
-Xavez
P.S. Tyndmyr explained my point equally well.

Uh, no. No it's not. Let's take, say, a Vrock. CR 9, and it has 115 HP. 14 DPS doesn't do **** against that. As much as I like Warlocks, they are not the best blasters.

[Renchard]

Also, dealing 4d6 damage/round at 7th level is quite a lot, considering that it is usable at will.

4d6 = 2d6+7. That's the damage of a fighter with a greatsword +1 and an 18 Str, with no other items or feats involved. And he can attack twice per round.

[Darklord Xavez]

4d6 = 2d6+7. That's the damage of a fighter with a greatsword +1 and an 18 Str, with no other items or feats involved. And he can attack twice per round.

1. The warlock can do the same using eldritch chain.

2. The warlock can hit with eldritch chain from 250 feet away (via eldritch spear). I don't think a fighter can do that with a greatsword.
-Xavez

[Darklord Xavez]

Uh, no. No it's not. Let's take, say, a Vrock. CR 9, and it has 115 HP. 14 DPS doesn't do **** against that. As much as I like Warlocks, they are not the best blasters.

No they are not, but in a group without a fighter, a warlock could fill that role without much difficulty.
-Xavez

[Greenish]

No they are not, but in a group without a fighter, a warlock could fill that role without much difficulty.:smallconfused:

What role? Beatstick? No dice there.

[Aran Banks]

I'm gonna agree with Xavez's latest point and say that warlock's would be an OK fighter replacement. He won't get hurt and he can have fun, but being at range means the rest of the party gets destroyed. Getting up close means a dead warlock.

So they're not a super-useful class, but they can do DPS. The party had just better not rely on them to keep people alive.

Also... melee warlock: High HP, buff invocations, and touch attacks with Eldritch Blast (or Eldritch Stab In The Face). Anyone made something like this?

[Vizzerdrix]

Also... melee warlock: High HP, buff invocations, and touch attacks with Eldritch Blast (or Eldritch Stab In The Face). Anyone made something like this?

That would be the "Glaivelock" Build. I may have spelled that wrong, but someone will correct me. Or ninja me.

[Tinydwarfman]

There are some pretty badass Glaivelock builds around. I think Eldritch Disciple does it best, but not till higher levels. Travel Devotion + Persisted Divine Power + Eldritch Glaive = A butload of pain. There are also some pretty nifty feats from Dragon Mag that let you use EB in conjunction with unarmed strikes and natural attacks that can help.

[Darklord Xavez]

I'm gonna agree with Xavez's latest point and say that warlock's would be an OK fighter replacement. He won't get hurt and he can have fun, but being at range means the rest of the party gets destroyed. Getting up close means a dead warlock.

So they're not a super-useful class, but they can do DPS. The party had just better not rely on them to keep people alive.

Also... melee warlock: High HP, buff invocations, and touch attacks with Eldritch Blast (or Eldritch Stab In The Face). Anyone made something like this?

All you need is a good con score and one or two of improved toughness (+1 hp on all current and future hit dice).
-Xavez

[Tinydwarfman]

All you need is a good con score and one or two of improved toughness (+1 hp on all current and future hit dice).
-Xavez

Con score yes, but Imp. Toughness requires Toughness, which you should never take under any circumstances, and it can only be taken once.

[Greenish]

Con score yes, but Imp. Toughness requires Toughness, which you should never take under any circumstances, and it can only be taken once.Thankfully, it doesn't require Toughness (despite the name).

[Keld Denar]

Yea, no Toughness needed for Imp Toughness...just a +2 or higher base Fort save, which any Warlock should have by level 6 unless he multiclasses and isn't using fractional saves.

[Tinydwarfman]

Really? I could have sworn... :smallredface: Bleh.

[true_shinken]

By the by, The Chausible of Fell Power is a scarf.(I had never heard the word either, until I read CAr.)
Erm, no. It might surprise you, but the chasuble of fell power is actually... a chasuble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasuble).
Like this.
http://saccoscom.x-shops.com/images/T/2-3850.gif



2. The warlock can hit with eldritch chain from 250 feet away (via eldritch spear). I don't think a fighter can do that with a greatsword.
-Xavez
Eldritch Chain adds a save and it can't be combined with eldritch spear...



Also... melee warlock: High HP, buff invocations, and touch attacks with Eldritch Blast (or Eldritch Stab In The Face). Anyone made something like this?
So, you want melee warlocks? I PITY THE FOOL WHO DOES NOT (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708)!

[thompur]

Erm, no. It might surprise you, but the chasuble of fell power is actually... a chasuble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasuble).
Like this.
http://saccoscom.x-shops.com/images/T/2-3850.gif


Eldritch Chain adds a save and it can't be combined with eldritch spear...


So, you want melee warlocks? I PITY THE FOOL WHO DOES NOT (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708)!

No, Eldritch Chain does not add a save. It still requires a ranged touch vs. each subse... subsiq...each additional target, who take 1/2 the damage of the first target.

The CoFP is described as "This long, embroidered strip of scarlet cloth". But, as long as it only takes up the throat space, I like yours better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another use for Warlock, other than Hellfire Glaivelock DPS, is Item vending Machine.

Warlock 12 gets a really nifty ability that lets him make just about any magic item in the game... if only he had the right feat to do so. Enter Chameleon2, and suddenly he HAS any item creation feat in the game.

Need to make a +1 Keen Valorous Greatsword for the beatstick? No problem, your floating feat from Chameleon is now Craft magic arms and armor. Kaching. Need a Ring of Protection? Fine, next day it's now Forge Ring. Badda-bing, badda-boom. Now we're going out adventuring? Fine, it's another Invocation which you can change up every day, or maybe it's some SLA-affecting feat, like Empower SLA or Maximize SLA or Quicken SLA. Whatever floats your boat.

See all the other discussions on 'riding the xp wave' on how this really doesn't affect your level all that much.

So yes, you can make a surprisingly versatile warlock, if you know how. And make sure everyone *can*, in fact, get *exactly* the items they want, at half cost, rather than hoping the local Magic-Mart, or the next Random Encounter, has precisely the right thing you were looking for. Because, yanno, exotic weapons sporting enhancements from three different obscure sources to maximize benefits for precisely YOUR exact build just fall out of trees all the time...

[Halae]

Another use for Warlock, other than Hellfire Glaivelock DPS, is Item vending Machine.

Warlock 12 gets a really nifty ability that lets him make just about any magic item in the game... if only he had the right feat to do so. Enter Chameleon2, and suddenly he HAS any item creation feat in the game.

Need to make a +1 Keen Valorous Greatsword for the beatstick? No problem, your floating feat from Chameleon is now Craft magic arms and armor. Kaching. Need a Ring of Protection? Fine, next day it's now Forge Ring. Badda-bing, badda-boom. Now we're going out adventuring? Fine, it's another Invocation which you can change up every day, or maybe it's some SLA-affecting feat, like Empower SLA or Maximize SLA or Quicken SLA. Whatever floats your boat.

See all the other discussions on 'riding the xp wave' on how this really doesn't affect your level all that much.

So yes, you can make a surprisingly versatile warlock, if you know how. And make sure everyone *can*, in fact, get *exactly* the items they want, at half cost, rather than hoping the local Magic-Mart, or the next Random Encounter, has precisely the right thing you were looking for. Because, yanno, exotic weapons sporting enhancements from three different obscure sources to maximize benefits for precisely YOUR exact build just fall out of trees all the time...

which is why I absolutely LOVE artificers. Artificer and warlock make trhe best vending machines, but artificer can do it straight from the bottom, and don't always have to spend XP, making him better for the role, and warlocks can't create constructs with that floating feat

I will say this though - Warlocks are crazy awesome. The damage reduction alone has saved my character's life before, fast healing stacks up before you really realize it, and at-will abilities give you a better longevity than any other casting class. It's using them well that's the tricky part.

[Roga]

While Warlocks are awesome, my favorite is the Spellthief with warlock friends. All your 24 buffs are belong to me. "You can fly, turn invisible, see in magical darkness, and get bonuses on lots of great skills? Cool, so can I." :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

No, Eldritch Chain does not add a save. It still requires a ranged touch vs. each subse... subsiq...each additional target, who take 1/2 the damage of the first target.

The CoFP is described as "This long, embroidered strip of scarlet cloth". But, as long as it only takes up the throat space, I like yours better.

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised, too, that Wizards mixed up their obscure priestly vestment names/descriptions. I think what they are describing is a Stole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stole_%28vestment%29).

[true_shinken]

While Warlocks are awesome, my favorite is the Spellthief with warlock friends. All your 24 buffs are belong to me. "You can fly, turn invisible, see in magical darkness, and get bonuses on lots of great skills? Cool, so can I." :smallbiggrin:

But you only get Steal Spell Like-Ability in level 8 or something, right?

[thompur]

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised, too, that Wizards mixed up their obscure priestly vestment names/descriptions. I think what they are describing is a Stole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stole_%28vestment%29).

Probably. But Chasuble is a cooler word.:smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

which is why I absolutely LOVE artificers. Artificer and warlock make trhe best vending machines, but artificer can do it straight from the bottom, and don't always have to spend XP, making him better for the role, and warlocks can't create constructs with that floating feat

I will say this though - Warlocks are crazy awesome. The damage reduction alone has saved my character's life before, fast healing stacks up before you really realize it, and at-will abilities give you a better longevity than any other casting class. It's using them well that's the tricky part.

Artificers are also a Tier 1 class who has more cheese than Kraft Inc. does.

True, Craft Construct has two other Item Creation feats as prerequisites, so a Warlock would have to be pretty much dedicated to crafting to pull it off. However, making constructs in the first place is playing fast and loose anyways, and a Warlock could pick up Blast Essence invocations of the appropriate flavor for unlimited construct healing.

I like the Invocation system so much, I've used the chassis to create four different classes, each of whom are designed to replace one of the base classes for a more balanced game.

One replaces wiz/sorc, has 1/2 BAB, gains one invocation every level, d4 HD, no armor proficiencies and ASF fully applies to everything, and has class abilities related to harnessing and channeling raw arcane power.

One replaces Druid, 3.4 BAB, warlock invocation progression, d6 HD, same armor proficencies and restrictions Druids have, no ASF, and has class abilities related to nature. Instead of a 'blast', they get a variant on 'summon nature's ally', with the restriction that they can a) only have one active at a time (summon more, and the previous summonings vanish), and b) Animals only (no unicorns for unlimited healing, etc...). As a Greater Invocation, they can add elementals to that list. They can also get Aspect Invocations, much in the same manner as the PhB II variant. At higher levels, they can stack multiple different Aspect Invocations. Aspect Invocations can also increase HD (or at least provide additional hit points, netting you the same result), increasing natural attack damage, or granting abilities. They also get Nature spell-like-abilities such as Entangle, Pollen Cloud (Stinking Cloud by any other name...), and other nature-related spells off the Druid spell list.

One replaces the Cleric. This one, I'm still working on, as Unlimited Healing can be broke. I'm thinking of a cooldown-timer on being able to be affected by it. The healing can be augmented with various status-removal effects (remove curse, cure disease, neutralize poison, cure blindness...), and at higher levels, may be done at range. They also have invocations which inflict single-target status effects.

Then one replaces the Bard. Why? Well, I just like Bards, and I don't want to have to make them run through six different splatbooks to make them work properly. Replace spells with invocations at the same rate as a warlock's invocations. All of them are Sonic, Mind-Affecting, unless otherwise specified. Bardic Knowledge now grants synergy bonuses to Knowledge skills, based on how many knowledge skills you have at a given level.

[Tinydwarfman]

Say, Shneekey, you wouldn't mind posting those on the forums would you? I'd really like to see the wizard replacement.

[Halae]

Say, Shneekey, you wouldn't mind posting those on the forums would you? I'd really like to see the wizard replacement.

yeah, I particularly like the warlock class, and unlimited spells a day (in any form) has always appealed to me

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Say, Shneekey, you wouldn't mind posting those on the forums would you? I'd really like to see the wizard replacement.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67999) is the Wizard-replacing one. It's an older version, but one which is still on the boards, at least.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68250) is the Bard

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74284) is the druid replacement

Thus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67998) is what I have so far for the cleric replacement.

[Darklord Xavez]

Probably. But Chasuble is a cooler word.:smallwink:

110% behind you on that one.

Also, back to warlocks: I think that they are actually one of the easiest classes for beginning characters (along with the sorcerer) that cast spells, because there is almost no bookkeeping involved. The sorcerer has some, but the warlock has one thing that needs bookkeeping, which is the fast healing.
-Xavez
P.S. @Schneeky: I love you for that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The one thing I absolutely love about the Invocation system... no ability to Nova.

Part of the strength of the Batman Wizard is that he can launch a stupid number of spells in a single round (using familiar/quicken/time-stop/other Action-Economy-Breakers), every round, until his opponent ceases to be.

Then proceeds to go 'gee, I blew half my spells per day this encounter, well... that's easy, I'll go jump into my Rope Trick/MMM, get all my spells back, and be able to do the same thing again tomorrow'.

He can Nova, then he's not worthless, because he can turtle to regain spells, and repeat ad nauseium.

Invokers don't nova. They have abilities which they can use pretty much an unlimited number of times per day. Therefore, they don't have a 'break the game, once per day' spell, which they can use every encounter by hitting a reset button.

This also makes them easier to balance, in terms of power. A Glaivelock is pretty good at damage output. But not even close to what an Ubercharger can dish out, much less HH shenanigans, and only if you use Legacy Champion. But because their powers are not limited by uses per day, they can be more easily compared with the power level of other classes.

By the way, the Invocation classes in my previous post were intended to run along in tandem with ToB classes replacing the base classes (Warblade for Fighter, Swordsage for Monk, and Crusader for Paladin). That was the power level I was aiming at balancing towards.

[Halae]

By the way, the Invocation classes in my previous post were intended to run along in tandem with ToB classes replacing the base classes (Warblade for Fighter, Swordsage for Monk, and Crusader for Paladin). That was the power level I was aiming at balancing towards.making them all tier 3? That's a good idea for balance's sake. nice. I hope you continue along in your efforts

[Darklord Xavez]

The one thing I absolutely love about the Invocation system... no ability to Nova.

Part of the strength of the Batman Wizard is that he can launch a stupid number of spells in a single round (using familiar/quicken/time-stop/other Action-Economy-Breakers), every round, until his opponent ceases to be.

Then proceeds to go 'gee, I blew half my spells per day this encounter, well... that's easy, I'll go jump into my Rope Trick/MMM, get all my spells back, and be able to do the same thing again tomorrow'.

He can Nova, then he's not worthless, because he can turtle to regain spells, and repeat ad nauseium.

Invokers don't nova. They have abilities which they can use pretty much an unlimited number of times per day. Therefore, they don't have a 'break the game, once per day' spell, which they can use every encounter by hitting a reset button.

This also makes them easier to balance, in terms of power. A Glaivelock is pretty good at damage output. But not even close to what an Ubercharger can dish out, much less HH shenanigans, and only if you use Legacy Champion. But because their powers are not limited by uses per day, they can be more easily compared with the power level of other classes.

By the way, the Invocation classes in my previous post were intended to run along in tandem with ToB classes replacing the base classes (Warblade for Fighter, Swordsage for Monk, and Crusader for Paladin). That was the power level I was aiming at balancing towards.

I think I just suffered Death By Jargon.
-Xavez

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think I just suffered Death By Jargon.
-Xavez

Then to reiterate in less technical jargon...

Many people say that the primary casters (Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric) are all far more powerful than the rest of the party, because the spells they cast are very powerful (there's more to it, but this is, in a nutshell, one of the factors that makes them completely overpowered).

The balance to this is that they run out of spells. At low levels, they supposedly run out of them very fast. And if they run out of spells, Wizards and Sorcerers are pretty much left with a Crossbow.

However, there are two spells in the game which allow them to rest up safely: Rope Trick, and Mordinkain's Magnificent Mansion. These two spells create an area where the party can rest, and does so instantly.

By using these spells, a Wizard can use up all his spells per day as quickly as he can (and there's a LOT of tricks about how to go about doing so, I've seen 8 spells cast in a single non-time-stop round before), and then when he has run out of his powerful spells, may go rest where the party cannot be attacked.

So, assuming the party doesn't mind camping after every encounter, the balance on his spells, that they run out, is removed.

This is not an issue with Invocation-based classes like Warlock, because the Warlock doesn't have world-shattering abilities which can only be used a limited number of times per day. He has decent things he can do all day long.

Does that make my point clearer?