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Dorna
2010-08-17, 04:00 PM
Hi!
A friend of mine recently joined our group and wanted to play a dwarven cleric. He took some feats without knowing many rules and became a totaly boring heal-bot. Well, he got a bit frustraded so i tried to help him a bit.
The ability rolls at level 1 were 10,11,12,14,15,17. He'll start at level 7 and definitely wants to be a dwarf.
I thought about:
str 14, dex 11, con 15, int 10, wis 17, cha 12 as rolls
-> str 14, dex 11, con 17, int 10, wis 18, cha 10 as level 7 dwarf (I don't hink there will be many undead in the campaign)
Domains: Metal (Weapon Focus: Warhammer) / Planning (Extend Spell)
Taking the level 4 substitution level from the Races of Stone to get +2 dmg with a warhammer

Feats:
Persistent Spell
Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
Somatic Weaponry

Equipment (just got the 17000 GP for level 7):
Nightstick
Full Plate
Heavy Steel Shield +1
Strongarm Bracers
a large masterwork Warhammer

the 7 turn attempts used to buff persistent Divine Power and one Magic Armor an the Plate would result in:
str 20, dex 11, con 17, int 10, wis 18, cha 10
AC 22
+14/+9 2d6+7

So he'll loses not too much of his healing ability but gains a lot more Melee-possibilities.

Would you think, this is going to work or is this just nonsense and nothing else?

FMArthur
2010-08-17, 04:09 PM
There is a Cleric ACF out there somewhere that lets you spontaneously cast spells from one of your domains instead of healing spells. If healing is boring (it is) and he wants cool offensive spells (domain spells can be pretty great), this is probably the right way to go.

Greenish
2010-08-17, 04:11 PM
Drop shield (until he can afford an animated one). Two-hand the warhammer. Pick Power Attack instead of Somatic Weaponry (letting go and grasping a weapon again with your other hand while two-handing are both free actions, allowing him to cast spells with somatic components without wasting feats).

Paul H
2010-08-17, 04:19 PM
Hi

If you need a Heal-Bot, then go Radiant Servant Pelor.

Look up Healing Lorecall in Spell Compendium, you can increase your CL for Healing spells. There are other nice spells for DMM - Positive NRG Aura & Sheltered Vitality are two.......

I'm playing in Age of Worms campaign. We're near end and our characters are all level 20. As Clr 9/RSoP 10/Contemplative 1, my Mass Heal does 360 pts Healing/Damage.

We've only got access to the basic splat books, MIC and Spell Compendium. I suggest you look at Wraiths Woe in MIC, it really supports an anti-undead campaign!

Thanks
Paul H
PS I'm also playing a Dwarf!

Greenish
2010-08-17, 04:22 PM
If you need a Heal-Bot, then go Radiant Servant Pelor.That was quite exactly what he didn't want.

Anyway, there's a mistake. He'll only be able to persist Divine Power, not Magic Vestments. (Magic Armor doesn't stack with real armour.)

Paul H
2010-08-17, 04:30 PM
That was quite exactly what he didn't want.

Anyway, there's a mistake. He'll only be able to persist Divine Power, not Magic Vestments. (Magic Armor doesn't stack with real armour.)

Hi

OK - my bad, but RSoP is good for many other things, too. Martial Wpn Proficiencies, Disease Immunity, etc. My one was created as Party Tank, in a campaign where Evil Outsiders & Undead were the norm........

He can DMM Magic Vestments if he wants - he just uses the better enhancement bonus. (As you implied). Though, at that level there may be better spells for DMM.

Cheers
Paul H
Edit: Magic Vestment doesn't grant an Armour Bonus - it adds an Enhancement to existing Armour

Gnaritas
2010-08-17, 04:32 PM
If you persist Ice Axe (spell compendium) instead of Divine Power you might not get the improved BaB and strength, but your attacks are more likely to hit and deal more damage. Another plus is that you can still use a shield and do not need somatic weaponry (the Ice Axe dissappears and reappears as you wish).
You would miss out on the Temporary HP.

Greenish
2010-08-17, 04:34 PM
He can DMM Magic Vestments if he wants - he just uses the better enhancement bonus. (As you implied).He doesn't have any turn attempts left over after persisting Divine Power, is what I meant.

[Edit]:

Edit: Magic Vestment doesn't grant an Armour Bonus - it adds an Enhancement to existing ArmourBut Magic Armor grants armour bonus.

Paul H
2010-08-17, 04:36 PM
Hi

Persist Positive Energy Aura (SpC) - every living creature in 10' rad (including you) get 2HP/rnd back. Who needs temp HP?

Cheers
Paul H

Greenish
2010-08-17, 04:41 PM
Persist Positive Energy Aura (SpC) - every living creature in 10' rad (including you) get 2HP/rnd back. Who needs temp HP?That seems rather antithetical to the stated goal of becoming less a "boring healbot".

Oh, and Ice Axe isn't more likely to hit than the warhammer with Persisted Divine Power (it's not touch attack), and I'm sceptical about how it's damage compares to two-handing the aforementioned hammer (especially with PA).

[Edit]: Okay, Ice Axe wins in damage, loses in accuracy.

Gnaritas
2010-08-17, 04:47 PM
Why is it not a touch attack....it says so in the text...

Greenish
2010-08-17, 04:49 PM
Why is it not a touch attack....it says so in the text...Ah, yes they are. I've gone over the spell a few times, but always somehow missed that. :smallconfused:

[Edit]: But with Divine Power he'd have his first iterative.

Eldariel
2010-08-17, 04:50 PM
You want to cast Spikes [Spell Compendium; Level 3] on whatever melee weapon you're wielding (and make sure it qualifies; it's one of the bigger damage boosts available to Clerics). Hours/level, CL as a bonus to damage, and some enhancement.

Somatic Weaponry is indeed unnecessary; you should just two-hand and release one hand to cast. Power Attack is solid tho Craft Wondrous Items to have him retroactively craft him something would also help. Divine Favor is another solid buff (if you get a chance to cast it before combat) and on these levels, you can get Divine Power Persisted. There's also Recitation [SC], Conviction [SC], Lesser Holy Transformation [SC] and a few other spells that could be very much of use. Magic Vestment & Greater Magic Weapon will pick off in a level when they get +2 bonuses.


Mass Lesser Vigor persisted, or Wands of Lesser Vigor should remove the need to use his spell slots for simple healing, freeing them up for offensive casting and more buffs along with some defensive stuff like Lesser Restoration.

Obviously Divine Power is the first spell to persist tho. Don't forget the +6 Str-part which is very relevant when you can't afford gear for that. 20 Str is a different animal from 14. Also, temporary HP is nice, effectively bumping him up to Fighter HD. And yeah, Iterative and +2 to hit. That amounts to a lot. Composite +5 to hit, +4 damage (with 14 base Str; +5 with 16), 7 Temp HP and an extra attack at -5 (his standard attack bonus without Divine Power - it's gonna hit quite often too). Note that with Spikes, the extra attack amounts to a lot of damage too even without using PA yet.

Dorna
2010-08-17, 06:34 PM
If healing is boring (it is) and he wants cool offensive spells (domain spells can be pretty great), this is probably the right way to go.

Since he doesn't have much expierience and the cleric spell-list ist veeery big, i think: something more melee would better fit.


Drop shield (until he can afford an animated one). Two-hand the warhammer. Pick Power Attack instead of Somatic Weaponry (letting go and grasping a weapon again with your other hand while two-handing are both free actions, allowing him to cast spells with somatic components without wasting feats).

My DM and I agree that animated shield is way to overpowered. It negates every benefit a 1-Handed fighter has against a 2-handed (please excuse my english.. not my native language. so, if got something wrong.. or if i'm writign nonsense: tell me ;) )


If you need a Heal-Bot, then go Radiant Servant Pelor.
Nah.. he should be able to heal. But a Healbot is nothing he wants to play ;)



I have to look over the 'Ice axe'-Thing. Might be interesting. But it's way to late to read it now ;) Give me some hours

I think, a cleric should nearly always be able to heal enough (if he doesn't lose any caster levels) to keep the goup alive. (At least in a campaign that ist the first one for 3 of the five PCs). So persist positive energy aura might be nice.. but not necessary.

I'll keep the Spikes in mind and look at them tomorrow.

Thanks for now!!

Eldariel
2010-08-17, 06:49 PM
I think, a cleric should nearly always be able to heal enough (if he doesn't lose any caster levels) to keep the goup alive. (At least in a campaign that ist the first one for 3 of the five PCs). So persist positive energy aura might be nice.. but not necessary.

The key is freeing up his spell slots to do something useful instead of healing. Wands of Lesser Vigor/Cure Light Wounds (both are damn efficient; Lesser Vigor more-so, but slower) or a persistent healing effect would accomplish that without requiring spell slots from him so he could focus his slots on something that interests him instead.

Navigator
2010-08-17, 06:54 PM
My DM and I agree that animated shield is way to overpowered. It negates every benefit a 1-Handed fighter has against a 2-handed (please excuse my english.. not my native language. so, if got something wrong.. or if i'm writign nonsense: tell me ;) )
Your DM allows you to buy Nightsticks and DMM: Persist spells, which is one of the most powerful and nigh-absuive combos in the game, but is convinced animated shields are overpowered? I really can't wrap my head around that.

In any case, I wouldn't persist magic vestment. When his caster level is 8, he'll be able to cast greater magic vestment for a +2 enhancement bonus, and it'll last 8 hours. Personally, I would go for recitation and divine power. Whenever you have a spare 4th-level spell slot, greater magic weapon should also be cast.

Having the War domain is really, really helpful for feat qualifications from Complete Champion and gloves of war (MIC). If he can pick that up, it would be awesome. If he's okay with sacrificing a caster level, Fist of Raziel is an amazing class for the divine gish.

Eldariel
2010-08-17, 07:06 PM
In any case, I wouldn't persist magic vestment. When his caster level is 8, he'll be able to cast greater magic vestment for a +2 enhancement bonus, and it'll last 8 hours. Personally, I would go for recitation and divine power. Whenever you have a spare 4th-level spell slot, greater magic weapon should also be cast.

There's no "Greater Magic Vestment" :smallwink: Only "Magic Vestment" which is indeed what you're thinking of. I haven't seen anyone suggest persisting it tho; persisting hour/level spells in general is a waste. Extend at most.

Dorna
2010-08-17, 07:29 PM
Your DM allows you to buy Nightsticks and DMM: Persist spells, which is one of the most powerful and nigh-absuive combos in the game, but is convinced animated shields are overpowered? I really can't wrap my head around that.

Well.. that might be true. So lets hope my DM doesn't read this forum ;)


Having the War domain is really, really helpful for feat qualifications from Complete Champion and gloves of war (MIC). If he can pick that up, it would be awesome. If he's okay with sacrificing a caster level, Fist of Raziel is an amazing class for the divine gish.

Yeah.. my first thought was that he shoul play a human instead of a dwarf, and take .. Red Knight (i think, that was her name) as his God to take War and Planning as the Domains. But he wants to be a dwarf... and no dwarven god supports those two domains. So i tried to compensate this fact with taking the substitution level instead of the gauntles of war.

Greenish
2010-08-17, 07:35 PM
Yeah.. my first thought was that he shoul play a human instead of a dwarf, and take .. Red Knight (i think, that was her name) as his God to take War and Planning as the Domains. But he wants to be a dwarf... and no dwarven god supports those two domains. So i tried to compensate this fact with taking the substitution level instead of the gauntles of war.Don't be a racist. A dwarf can surely worship the Lady of Tactics just as much as a human.

Eldariel
2010-08-17, 07:38 PM
Yeah.. my first thought was that he shoul play a human instead of a dwarf, and take .. Red Knight (i think, that was her name) as his God to take War and Planning as the Domains. But he wants to be a dwarf... and no dwarven god supports those two domains. So i tried to compensate this fact with taking the substitution level instead of the gauntles of war.

Well, the class isn't amazing anyways; straight Cleric is frankly good enough and better than Fist of Raziel if going DMM: Persist route ('cause Persistent Divine Power means you have Good BAB regardless of what it shows). And it's not like Dwarves were limited in their deities any more than Humans. Indeed, the relevant PrCs for our interests here are:
- Contemplative
- Church Inquisitor
- Radiant Servant (note adaptation, tho Pelor is a fine god for Dwarves too, if not that typical)
- Sacred Exorcist
- Divine Oracle (+Loremaster eventually to recoup the lost feat)

You don't care about BAB but everything you've got hinges on your spell levels and caster level, so anything that loses caster levels isn't really amazing. And Human doesn't open up any of the truly awesome classes; Dwarf does enough there.

Contemplative is a gimme for almost every high-level Cleric since high-level Cleric by default tends to be in touch with their deity's highest servants and their deity quite all the time. Fine for all 10 levels, but the most interesting abilities are the bonus domains.


Church Inquisitor is fine if it fits the alignment; grants lots of solid abilities and meshes with Battle Cleric quite well (in terms of fluff; lots of abilities to defeat guile and force people to manly man-o'-mano fight; also anti-caster abilities which seem natural on a melee Cleric). Sacred Exorcist is fine for...well, anyone who cares. And Divine Oracle for those who are always prepared.

But yeah, Contemplative is the only "gimme" I'd go with. Others...well, you need none but the option is always there.

Greenish
2010-08-17, 07:57 PM
Church Inquisitor is fine if it fits the alignment; grants lots of solid abilities and meshes with Battle Cleric quite wellI'll praise CI some more: it's one of the earliest PrCs there are, very easy to enter, grants a decent domain also swappable for Knowledge Devotion, gets new shiny stuff on most of the lower levels, and offers the luxurious 4 skill points per level from a very handy list.

Though I do believe the term is "mano a mano", hand-to-hand.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-17, 10:42 PM
Heh, well, you could try this from Anauroch the Empire of Shade

Thaalud Stone Armor: heavy armor; 2,800 gp;
armor bonus +12; max Dex +0; check penalty
–8; AF 40%; 180 lb.

it is made of special stone plates that have been riveted together
so no glassteel or mithral can be applied to this one since its basically stone
thankfully its not considered exotic as far as proficiency goes

heymejack
2010-08-18, 01:44 AM
any cleric that wants to be deep in combat should take the strength domain. as the domain power, they get to add their cleric class levels to their strength for one round. +20 to strength for one round, with the full attack? thats sick. wade into combat, drop a couple of heals if needed, make a couple hits if needed, and then when you're in position to full attack, use your big round. its a good plan.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 06:38 AM
any cleric that wants to be deep in combat should take the strength domain. as the domain power, they get to add their cleric class levels to their strength for one round. +20 to strength for one round, with the full attack? thats sick. wade into combat, drop a couple of heals if needed, make a couple hits if needed, and then when you're in position to full attack, use your big round. its a good plan.

That's the problem in a nutshell. One round is only one round and doesn't likely cover a large amount of the battles you'll be waging. Also, it only works off Cleric-level so you need 20 levels in pure Cleric to get +20 Str. And drop heals? That's specifically what we're avoiding here; Cleric can contribute more than with just heals in combat (Heal itself is worthwhile to cast but generally enemies just deal more damage than the Cleric can heal).

TheAzrael
2010-08-18, 07:01 AM
Hi there :) i would like to point out two amazing Prc that can make a cleric a monster in melee. That would be bone knight and ordain champion (i hope i have spelled ordain correctly). sure you might need a little fluff to fit you cleric but if the dm is ok with that i dont see any proplem. Another popular choice is 1 lvl dip in crusader from ToB and then going for the Prc there ruby knight vindicator. Here is an amazing handbook http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0 that will explain both options much better. again if something doesnt stick with the character concept we can always count on a flexible dm :)

Jacque
2010-08-18, 07:04 AM
Feats:
Persistent Spell
Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
Somatic Weaponry



Doesn't Persistent Spell require Extend Spell first?

Dorna
2010-08-18, 07:06 AM
Doesn't Persistent Spell require Extend Spell first?

It does. Thats why i need the Planning-Domain ;)

heymejack
2010-08-18, 11:22 AM
That's the problem in a nutshell. One round is only one round and doesn't likely cover a large amount of the battles you'll be waging. Also, it only works off Cleric-level so you need 20 levels in pure Cleric to get +20 Str. And drop heals? That's specifically what we're avoiding here; Cleric can contribute more than with just heals in combat (Heal itself is worthwhile to cast but generally enemies just deal more damage than the Cleric can heal).

sorry, should have been more clear. you can wade into battle, dropping heals as you go. i meant fighting and healing at the same time. come in, heal the fighter, do your big round with your big bonus to strength. its true that its only one round, but fights in my campaign are usually pretty short anyway (4-7 rounds total), and if you are also casting offensive spells AND doing a little bit of healing, seems like 1 really nasty melee round is a good idea.

to be fair though, its true that you have to go straight cleric for it to be as good as it can be. but i don't know of any good cleric prestige classes. a couple have been mentioned here. are they any good?

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 11:39 AM
sorry, should have been more clear. you can wade into battle, dropping heals as you go. i meant fighting and healing at the same time. come in, heal the fighter, do your big round with your big bonus to strength. its true that its only one round, but fights in my campaign are usually pretty short anyway (4-7 rounds total), and if you are also casting offensive spells AND doing a little bit of healing, seems like 1 really nasty melee round is a good idea.

That's the first encounter. Then you fight a couple more and there's no more boost. What I'm saying is that the relative value of a one-use boost is quite low compared to something constant, especially if you intend to actually fight, as in:
1. Quicken Divine Favor, position yourself to be able to take AoOs closing the distance to opponents & Attack
2. Full attack, Quickened Silence on threatened enemy caster area (not targeted so it doesn't give save; if they move they provoke and if they don't, they won't cast without Silent Spell or Rod of it)
3. Full attack, Quickened Plane Shift shifting one opponent to the Positive Energy Plane (they'll explode shortly)
4. Quickened Teleport, Full Attack

Now, you could use the Str-buff on one round, but still it'd only help about 1/4th of your attacks in the combat and depending on how many enemies you have in reach, you might waste some of it anyways. And it really kicks off on higher levels where you have insane boosts available anyways and don't really need any more.

And on top of all that, you'll often, especially in various dungeons/BBEG bases/etc. end up having a ton of fights in one day and it'll only help that one single combat round out of the ~20-30 you end up actually fighting.


to be fair though, its true that you have to go straight cleric for it to be as good as it can be. but i don't know of any good cleric prestige classes. a couple have been mentioned here. are they any good?

All the PrCs in my post are pretty much strictly better than standard Cleric simply 'cause standard Cleric doesn't give you any abilities. Many of the more martial ones lose caster levels and don't really go that well with DMM: Persist build but are awesome on their own right (Ordained Champion in particular; Bone Knight, Fist of Raziel, Knight of the Raven and so on are just fillers to maintain full BAB without Divine Power but for DMM-users, that's a trivial concern and the caster levels are a 100 times more important).

- Contemplative [CDiv]
- Church Inquisitor [CDiv]
- Radiant Servant [CDiv]
- Sacred Exorcist [CDiv]
- Divine Oracle [CDiv] (+Loremaster eventually to recoup the lost feat)
- Divine Disciple [PGtF]

Those tho cost basically nothing to enter and have varying, awesome abilities and thus are easily worth it. None of them have game breaking power, but each of them offers a versatile, useful ability set that makes them worth it over straight Cleric.

There's of course Dweomerkeeper [CDiv Web] that costs feats to enter (and is a bit tricky; gotta know a few things to get in with straight Cleric) but is absolutely insane in terms of power, being on the same level as Incantatrix and Planar Shepherd. Don't suggest it tho since its abilities kinda break the game bad without even trying. Supernatural Spell has to be the worst thought out ability ever...

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-18, 11:53 AM
<snip>

There's of course Dweomerkeeper [CDiv Web] that costs feats to enter (and is a bit tricky; gotta know a few things to get in with straight Cleric) but is absolutely insane in terms of power, being on the same level as Incantatrix and Planar Shepherd. Don't suggest it tho since its abilities kinda break the game bad without even trying. Supernatural Spell has to be the worst thought out ability ever...

I don't know Eldariel, Manipulate Form is worst in my opinion

Greenish
2010-08-18, 11:55 AM
I don't know Eldariel, Manipulate Form is worst in my opinionAt least that one wasn't intended for players.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-18, 11:56 AM
Zarus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) is by far the best deity for a combat focused cleric. War domain, Greatsword for a favored weapon, along with good choices like Strength, Law, and Destiny! I'd go LN Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, say he visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get the Skill Focus prerequisite for Divine Oracle for 2,000 gp without spending a feat on it. Start out with the Strength and War domains, get Law at Contemplative 1 and Destiny at Contemplative 6, along with Oracle of course. That lets you DMM: Persist Choose Destiny at level 17, if you get that far. Since he's Human you can get Extend, Persist, and DMM: Persist along with Power Attack starting out. I'd use the PH2 ACF to spontaneously cast from one of your starting domains rather than spontaneously casting Inflict spells.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 11:59 AM
I don't know Eldariel, Manipulate Form is worst in my opinion

It's worst written, sure, but Supernatural Spell in and of itself...I just can't fathom what the idea behind it was. Like, it just doesn't make sense. With Manipulate Form, mayhap the idea was generate some interesting Kobolds for DM use with the Progenitor-race; that could make sense. Perhaps it was intended to actually have limitations or some such. Supernatural Spell...why does it exist? All it does is:
1) Remove all components.
2) Make spells uncounterable (and the casting process undetectable).
3) Ignore SR and other trivial nonsense.

Now, I just don't see why anyone would ever make an ability that has one key use: cheating. And not much beyond that. It just...doesn't make sense. What were they THIIINKIIING?!! AARGH *headsplo*



Zarus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) is by far the best deity for a combat focused cleric. War domain, Greatsword for a favored weapon, along with good choices like Strength, Law, and Destiny! I'd go LN Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, say he visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get the Skill Focus prerequisite for Divine Oracle for 2,000 gp without spending a feat on it. Start out with the Strength and War domains, get Law at Contemplative 1 and Destiny at Contemplative 6, along with Oracle of course. That lets you DMM: Persist Choose Destiny at level 17, if you get that far. Since he's Human you can get Extend, Persist, and DMM: Persist along with Power Attack starting out. I'd use the PH2 ACF to spontaneously cast from one of your starting domains rather than spontaneously casting Inflict spells.

Greatsword doesn't qualify for Spikes, which makes it rather uninspiring for a Cleric, especially with how easy divine caster level is to pump.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-18, 12:05 PM
Oh... right, sometimes I forgot that some abilities were not meant to be used by players whistles inocently while deleting his Kobold Paladin from mythweavers account

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-18, 12:25 PM
Greatsword doesn't qualify for Spikes, which makes it rather uninspiring for a Cleric, especially with how easy divine caster level is to pump.

As per Spell Compendium, Spikes only lasts 1 round/level. Not as good as Greater Magic Weapon, which works on greatswords.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 12:40 PM
As per Spell Compendium, Spikes only lasts 1 round/level. Not as good as Greater Magic Weapon, which works on greatswords.

Wow, I never even noticed that. That's quite a strange nerf; makes Spikes pretty much useless as Brambles does what you care about from a lower level slot. Still, the CL to damage is not to be taken lightly; I guess you ought to quicken Brambles instead then. Greater Magic Weapon is obvious for both, but doesn't do the part you care about. I'd still be inclined to pick a reach weapon over Greatsword tho; with Cleric's size increases, they can cover a lot of area.