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Itous
2010-08-18, 04:18 AM
hi all, i'm having a debate with my friends, they are saying "a natural 20 is not always a success because if your total roll is not over the DC you still don't make it"

how ever i beg to differ, can someone please give me a page number that tells me weather or not it is an automatic success or not, i know GM's ruling is final but i would like to put an end to this god aweful silly notion once and for all.


Itous

Sliver
2010-08-18, 04:28 AM
Page 134, attack roll:


Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the Critical Hits sidebar, page 140).

Page 136, saving throws:


Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, page 177). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

Page 63, skill checks:


Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.

Basically, your DM is right. A nat 20 is not always an auto success. It's an auto success only when comes to saving throws and attacks, but not for skill/ability checks.

Itous
2010-08-18, 07:49 PM
cool cheers debate over

devinkowalczyk
2010-08-18, 08:41 PM
Wow
that guy just knocked it out of the park

way to go Sliver

Volos
2010-08-18, 10:15 PM
There is a varriant rule presented in the DMG that your DM may or may not choose to run with, that allows for auto failure and auto success in skill/ability checks. But this comes with consequences for failure and extra effects of success.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-08-18, 10:36 PM
Skill checks can't be critted. Do you really want to play in a world in which halflings can jump to the moon every twentieth time they try? :smallwink:

gomipile
2010-08-18, 10:45 PM
There is a varriant rule presented in the DMG that your DM may or may not choose to run with, that allows for auto failure and auto success in skill/ability checks. But this comes with consequences for failure and extra effects of success.

I one of our GMs uses that rule in Deadlands and in Star Wars. Which led to situations like the time when everyone in the party had to make a climb check to avoid falling into the alligator pit and 2 people rolled natural 1s.

Zom B
2010-08-18, 10:50 PM
I miss the West End Games' d6 system's "Wild Die." Ah, fun times.

Halae
2010-08-18, 10:58 PM
I like the idea of autosucceeding on skill checks, but the execution is important to avoid the moon jumping halfling thing.

Essentially, what I do is if the character rolls a 1, he takes the roll and imposes a -10 on the final result. if it's a twenty, he takes the roll and imposes a +10 on the final result. it's muich more balanced than autosucceeeding, and it goes well with when the random dice gods decide to grace our skill checks. otherwise, we are saying "No thank you, I want the normal 20" and that just isn't a good thing to say to those gods.

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-19, 07:25 AM
Skill checks can't be critted. Do you really want to play in a world in which halflings can jump to the moon every twentieth time they try? :smallwink:

Yes. Yes I do :smallbiggrin:

panaikhan
2010-08-19, 07:54 AM
Critical successes on skills could be funny.
Imagine a crit 'Knowledge: Nature' roll, where 'you become one with the universe'

Greenish
2010-08-19, 08:07 AM
Critical successes on skills could be funny.
Imagine a crit 'Knowledge: Nature' roll, where 'you become one with the universe'Crit fail on Concentrate: you suddenly get caught into how the blade of your dagger reflects light and forget what you were doing. (Spend your next round turning your dagger in your hands and giggling silently.)

Snake-Aes
2010-08-19, 08:14 AM
Crit fail on Concentrate: you suddenly get caught into how the blade of your dagger reflects light and forget what you were doing. (Spend your next round turning your dagger in your hands and giggling silently.)
I have failed that check before.
But I'm also the type of guy that stops walking or driving to watch the moon.

Serpentine
2010-08-19, 08:21 AM
I like the idea of autosucceeding on skill checks, but the execution is important to avoid the moon jumping halfling thing.

Essentially, what I do is if the character rolls a 1, he takes the roll and imposes a -10 on the final result. if it's a twenty, he takes the roll and imposes a +10 on the final result. it's muich more balanced than autosucceeeding, and it goes well with when the random dice gods decide to grace our skill checks. otherwise, we are saying "No thank you, I want the normal 20" and that just isn't a good thing to say to those gods.Yup, that's what I do. And generally the players just make up their own consequences for critical failure. And critical success, really, as I think I'll generally give them an option to elaborate upon their action.
Yesterday I got a natural 1 on a check to determine how a bunch of cages had been opened. I declared that something bit the locks off.

edit: Actually... I'm not sure if that DM knows that that's a houserule. He's pretty much just DMed under me, my ex (with whom I determined a lot of my houserules), another friend who mostly played under me'n'ex, and yet another friend who isn't really up on the rules anyway*.

*She said that clerics don't get to wear armour because "they think their gods will protect them"... and thought it was RAW.

Jarawara
2010-08-19, 09:34 AM
Skill checks can't be critted. Do you really want to play in a world in which halflings can jump to the moon every twentieth time they try? :smallwink:

As long as they don't come back! :smallcool:

IdleMuse
2010-08-19, 05:46 PM
There's quite a good arguement for crit-fails and successes on some skill checks; for instance opposed skill checks. Even if my NPC has 20 ranks in bluff, it's still possible he'll put his foot in his mouth, just very unlikely.

I know in my group we have a house rule that tumble checks to avoid provoking AoOs can autofail on a natural 1 and autosucceed on a natural 20, just to liven up that part of fights :)

Swordgleam
2010-08-19, 10:49 PM
I've found how people view this particular houserule comes down to trust. If the players trust the DM, everyone loves the houserule and much fun is had by all as 20s on skill checks lead to epic successes and 1s lead to hilarious failures. Many of the best stories my former players tell about my game spring from such moments.

If the players don't trust the DM, they assume all 1s will be "you impale yourself on your sword and die" and will argue for hours against the houserule despite the fact that their main problem is that their DM is a jerk.

No, I'm not at all bitter from having previously wasted pages and pages of threads arguing about this with people who have never even tried this houserule and who game with jerk DMs. :smalltongue:

Vangor
2010-08-19, 11:12 PM
Quick caveat on the automatic failure for saving throws is at least Steadfast Determination in PHB2 changes this for Will saves, and I am certain other feats/class abilities or similar might alter other saves. Should be obvious additional features which explicitly modify initial rules supersedes those rules, but mostly pointing out this is possible.

Sliver
2010-08-20, 05:23 AM
Quick caveat on the automatic failure for saving throws is at least Steadfast Determination in PHB2 changes this for Will saves, and I am certain other feats/class abilities or similar might alter other saves. Should be obvious additional features which explicitly modify initial rules supersedes those rules, but mostly pointing out this is possible.

Well, there are certain maneuvers that use concentration instead of saves so you won't auto-fail on them and it's easier to optimize, with the downside of it eating up your swifts and not being usable every turn.