Simple classless systems recommendations

[Yora]

We've got a bit into an off-topic conversation in another thread, so lets make a new one to discuss things further.

I've played 3rd Ed. D&D for 11 years, and the only other systems I really know about in details are SW Saga and True20. I've heard quite a bit what other people said about other systems, and I like the idea of Characters who remain vulnerable to basic threads throughout the campaign and not rise to demigod-power levels as they progress through the levels. And as that's a basic principle of the d20 system, I might want to look into something different.
I'm running an E6 campaign right now, but that's only a fix for if you HAVE to play a d20 game. But I don't think it's the perfect solution.

I've had some brief looks at Shadowrun, Tri-Stat, GURPS, and M&M, but they all seemed much too complex to me. When I start a new campaign with completely new players, I want them to be able to decide on a character archetype and have the character ready to go within half an hour, without having to learn about a gazilion of possible abilities and how they can be combined. Maybe the mentioned systems are completely innoccent in this regard, but they seemed to suffer from that when I took a short look at them.
I'd also like a system that is simple in what it covers, and how things are resolved. That's what I like so much about d20: Roll a d20, add appropriate modfiers, reach a target number. (At least in theory, before you have to considers two dozens circumstances that affect a single attack roll.)
I think it would enough if a system covers things like "attacking an enemy", "climbing a wall", "breaking a door", "jumping over a pit", and so on, and it just tells me if the character can do it or not. No such complex things as making a new Climb check every 5 meters, being stuck for 1 round if the check does not succeed, falling down if the roll is too bad, making a saving throw to keep yourself from falling, making another saving throw to keep yourself from getting hurt on impact, rolling damage when you get hurt, making a saving throw to see if you fall unconscious, ... Just a simple "The wall is to smooth, you can't get over it" is all I want. :smallbiggrin:
Star Wars Saga and D&D 4th Ed. seem to go in that direction, but they still suffer from the basic problem I have with d20.

Also, the system should be able to cover a wide range of settings.

Is there anything you can recommend?

[valadil]

This might be simpler than your looking for but I've found myself intrigued by Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm) lately. It's free and the rules are only 6 pages long.

What I find neat about it is that the stats vary. I attended a game building workshop at PAX this year. It was mostly useless but the thing I took away from it is that you want to give your characters in your system attributes for the things you expect them to do. You don't always need to start out representing people with some combination of brawn, agility, mental, and other.

Anyway, Risus lets you decide what your stats are going to be. In particular, you pick cliches to be your stats. So Batman could have points in vigilante, scientist, millionaire, and orphan. When it comes time to make a jump check, you have to convince your GM that vigilante is the appropriate skill for jumping.

It's a light and goofy system that's probably not for everyone, but I really appreciate letting players flat out decide what they're going to do well.

[Terraoblivion]

If you have no problem with playing a wuxia game then Weapons of the Gods, might be a solution. The only thing that gives me a moments pause here is that there is a fair amount of different types of kung-fu to choose between. However, at their core they function according to fairly similar rules, especially if you get the update that gives them their standardized format of writing. You would have to largely ignore Secret Arts of all kinds for the beginning group, though. Those are fairly complex to grasp at first, though they become quite simple once you know how they work and can remember the relationships between elements and the like.

And there is nothing of the bookkeeping when it comes to climbing and the like. For one thing everyone can run on walls, but more importantly because it goes for handling such things in a cinematic fashion rather than keeping accurate track of where everything is.

System comes prepackaged with awesome fluff too, so give it a look even if it is not as simple as Risus.

[Yora]

This might be simpler than your looking for but I've found myself intrigued by Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm) lately. It's free and the rules are only 6 pages long.
This is amazing. I'll ask my players if they would want to try it for one session at our game tonight. :smallbiggrin:

[Lysander]

I've played Risus and love it. My one word of warning is that it doesn't handle magic, expendables, or buffs very well. Some cliches are too broad, allowing a character to do pretty much anything with it ("wizard"), there's no set limit on how many spells they can cast or what spells they know, and that can lead to abuse if they try to cast flying spells or strength spells on their party since there's no reason not to.

What I'd do is give every character a number of Cool points they can spend to push their cliche further and do awesome stuff. So if the wizard wants to spend a turn throwing a fireball at a single enemy that's just a normal cliche roll. There's no advantage is a magical attack like this over an arrow. But if they want to make it an area attack, they have to spend a cool point. If they want to cast a flying spell, that's a cool point. If they want to cast a mass flying spell, that's several cool points. Etc.

[Yora]

That sounds like a really good idea. I'll centainly consider this.

[gomipile]

FUDGE and FATE are both pretty good.

[dsmiles]

You asked for simple, so I won't suggest Rolemaster/HARP. Both of them have "classes" but they are very loosely defined.

[Yora]

I've heard about MERP. And it wasn't anything good. :smallbiggrin:

[Cirrhosis]

You could look into Talislanta too. It's pretty simple to play, uses point-buy XP on a template character creation system. Also: all 5 editions are free on teh intarwebnets for you to please enjoyment. Not surprisingly, that'd be at talislanta.com.

I just started playing it recently with my group, and we've been having some fun with it. Granted, it's not as simple as the 6-page rulebook, but it's a complete and varied campaign setting with its own unique flavor.

[Kiero]

If you liked the look of Risus, Wushu (http://www.story-games.at/wushu/open_reloaded.pdf)is of a similar heft, though operates with some differing assumptions.

Another similarly tiny game is There Is No Spoon (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14108115/MatrixRPG), which is based on The Matrix.

Both are just as free as Risus.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

If you liked the look of Risus, Wushu (http://www.story-games.at/wushu/open_reloaded.pdf)is of a similar heft, though operates with some differing assumptions.
Ah, you beat me to it. There's actually a lot about Wushu that I like better than Risus, but it take a less traditional approach to gaming, and requires some mentality adjustments. I was about to recommend searching for the Reloaded PDF, but it looks like you linked it. :smallbiggrin:

Also, if you want a simple d20 system? The White Box (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/whitebox.htm). It's based on the original 1974 D&D, and it strips away all of the added insanity that showed up, particularly in 3.5 Edition.

[Lysander]

That sounds like a really good idea. I'll centainly consider this.

A friend of mine starts off players with a small number of cool points, then only hands out new ones as rewards for good roleplaying or creative use of cliches without using cool points. Everyone might receive a cool point as a reward when they achieve some major group objective.

[Tyndmyr]

7th Sea. The old D10 version. Nationality can be important, and it's not simple in the sense of "few options", but character building and mechanics are very easy to understand, and very rapid to use.

It is, however, very tied to it's setting. It's probably the single best setting I've ever seen, but if it's not one you like, then 7th Sea would require significant adaptation to work with another setting.

I believe it's the originator of that "cool points" mechanic. They were called drama die, and they've been widely copied.

[TooManyBadgers]

FUDGE and FATE are both pretty good.
I've been using a stripped-down version of FATE for all my games, regardless of settings or expectations -- hard-boiled detective games, pulpy adventure, high fantasy, gritty scifi, whatever.

The rules are very simple and easy to teach (character creation happens as a group, so the players don't really need to know the rules; general descriptions of aspects might take 5 minutes; conflict resolution rules might take about another 5; after that, the players effectively understand the entire system) and the game itself rewards interesting characters (it's a trait-based system, so most of the game centers around players making the most of both their characters' strengths and weaknesses).

I would recommend modifying the stock design, though.
Most FATE guides are based around the idea of characters having lots of aspects, skills and stunts. I've had the best luck with 6 skills/character, 6 aspects and no stunts. I've also had good luck ignoring most printed skill lists, except as suggestions, leaving players more or less free to choose what they want to be able to do [this helps especially in scifi and fantasy settings, where technology and supernatural details swing dramatically away from FATE guides' default expectations].

FATE games by default assume players are using FUDGE dice. I've never met anybody who actually owns FUDGE dice. 'Interpreting' d6 rolls isn't hard, but is too confusing to do in a fast-moving game. A lot of guides recommend rolling 2d6 and subtracting one from the other; this leaves a really wonky distribution curve.
The best dice system I've used is having players roll 2d4, assigning one a positive value and one a negative value; this avoids FUDGE dice, avoids the delayed gameplay of 'interpreted' rolls and avoids the swingyness of the 2d6 model.


One thing probably deserves mentioning: It is not designed as a wargame, like the d20 examples listed in the OP. Characters aren't built around the concepts of "balance" or menus of limited explicit options. Players build characters that do what the players want them to do, and the GM is responsible for making that fun.

[dsmiles]

Have you tried HoL (http://www.cabil.com/promopage.html)?

[Satyr]

I would recommend the Unisystem games - either the "classic" line like All Flesh Must Be Eaten is basically a universal system with attached zombies, which are not really that essential for that game; but the zombie-building kit can be used for any kind of monster or opponent.
The cinematic line (Buffy, Angel, and the newest and right now best game Ghosts of Albion) is a bit simpler and faster, but the two systems are almost completely compatible.
The rules are very similar to D20, but classless and skill-based, with a gurps-style selection of advantages and disadvantages.

[Kiero]

Ah, you beat me to it. There's actually a lot about Wushu that I like better than Risus, but it take a less traditional approach to gaming, and requires some mentality adjustments. I was about to recommend searching for the Reloaded PDF, but it looks like you linked it. :smallbiggrin:


Given I wrote most of it, it would be remiss of me not to mention it. :smalltongue:

[Aroka]

RuneQuest (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/series.php?qsSeries=39). Old editions are exactly as simple.

Pendragon.

Call of Cthulhu.

Trail of Cthulhu.

Fading Suns.

Unisystem.

[gomipile]

FATE games by default assume players are using FUDGE dice. I've never met anybody who actually owns FUDGE dice. 'Interpreting' d6 rolls isn't hard, but is too confusing to do in a fast-moving game. A lot of guides recommend rolling 2d6 and subtracting one from the other; this leaves a really wonky distribution curve.

At least one education supplies store near me sells blank white d6s which have the texture of a matte wet-erase board. They are designed for parents and teachers to use as a fun teaching tool. For our purposes though, they're nice quality, cheap, and very useful for making homemade d2s d3s and, of course, FUDGE dice.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Given I wrote most of it, it would be remiss of me not to mention it. :smalltongue:
OH! XD Well it's very well-done, I love the insights in it. Especially the contrast of the two approaches to the WWII scene, and the explanation of how both fit in.

[TheThan]

non class systems require you to have a very solid idea of what your character can and can't do. While class systems almost do that part of character creation for you. If you want to play a fighter type, pick the fighter type class. if you want to play the wizard, pick the wizard class. They’re shoehorned into stereotypes for a reason. May people complain about this aspect of class systems (like dnd) as if it was unintentional, but it isn't its very much designed like that to make it easy and fast to create a character.

From you post, it sounds like you want a simple class system. In that case I can’t really help you there, other than maybe dumbing down dnd 3.5 some, or maybe trying out 4E, as it seems quite a bit simpler than 3.5 (or at least, less number crunchy).




Tri-stat is actually pretty simple and intuitive. It’s just that character creation can be somewhat intimidating and appears more complex than it really is. Character creation doesn’t really involve any more math than it does in D20 system. It just you sort of have to have a very good idea of what you want your character to be able to do.

Unfortunately it’s the only non-class system I’ve tried out so I can’t comment on any others.

[the humanity]

basic roleplaying is a good one.

[Xuc Xac]

The D6 system is available for free here (http://unifieduniverse.com/). The Mini6 system is a stripped down and streamlined version, which is also free. You can get it here. (antipaladingames.com/minisix.html)

[DragonOfUndeath]

i made an almost classless system for the RPG im making. here it is:

Tier System:
Overview:
Tiers replace classes, ability scores and levels from D&D.
There are 4 Tier levels: Character (TierC), Tier1, Tier2 and Tier3:
Character is how powerful your Character/Creature is. Example: 5, 3 etc. every time this levels up you gain 12 HP+ Racial, Feat etc Modifiers.
Tier1’s are general things. Example: Mind, Divine, Martial, Magic etc.
Tier2’s are specific things. Example: Necromancy or Elemental Magic.
Tier3’s are very specific things. Example: Fire or Ice Elemental Magic.

List of Tiers (not including Racial Tiers):
Character TierC
Tier1s:

Magic Tier1
Might Tier1
Divine Tier1
Social Tier1

Tier2s:

Elemental Tier2 (magic)
Necromancy Tier2 (magic)
Divination Tier2 (magic)
Summoning Tier2 (magic)
Ranged Tier2 (might)
Sneaky Tier2 (might)
Close Combat-Heavy Tier2 (might)
Close Combat-Light Tier2 (might)
Blue Gods* Tier2 (divine)
White Gods* Tier2 (divine)
Black Gods* Tier2 (divine)
Green Gods* Tier2 (divine)
Red Gods* Tier2 (divine)
Intimidate Tier2 (social)
Bluff Tier2 (social)
Coerce Tier2 (social)
Bargain Tier2 (social)
*you can only choose 1 of these.
*I decided to use the Colour alignment system found here.

Tier3s (magic):
Fire Tier3 (elemental)
Ice Tier3 (elemental)
Positive Energy Tier3 (elemental)
Negative Energy Tier3 (elemental)
Control Other Undead Tier3 (necromancy)
Raise Undead Tier3 (necromancy)
Death Spells Tier3 (necromancy)
Life Spells Tier3 (necromancy)
See Stat/Alignment Tier3 (divination)
See Location/Person Tier3 (divination)
The Past Tier3 (divination)
The Future Tier3 (divination)
Summon Combat-Creature Tier3 (summoning)
Summon Stat-Boost Creature Tier3 (summoning)
Summon Party Member Tier3 (summoning)

Tier3s (Might):

Bows/Slings Tier3 (ranged)
Daggers/Small combat weapons Tier3 (ranged)
Unnoticed Tier3 (sneaky)
Ranged Tier3 (sneaky)
Close-Combat Tier3 (sneaky)
Sword-and-shield style Tier3 (close combat-heavy)
Giant-Sword style Tier3 (close combat-heavy)
Two-Sword style Tier3 (close combat-heavy)
Evasive style Tier3 (close combat-light)
Two-Dagger style Tier3 (close combat-light)
Teamwork style Tier3 (close combat-light)
1-Sword style Tier3 (close combat-light)

Tier3s (divine):

Add gods here

Tier3s (social)

Stand Over Tier3 (intimidate)
“Accidentally” Break Something Tier3 (intimidate)
Outrageous Lies Tier3 (bluff)
Convincing Lies Tier3 (bluff)
Charismatic Speech Tier3 (coerce)
Appeal to Humanity Tier3 (coerce)
Haggle Tier3 (bargain)

Tier3s (Character)

Climb Tier* (Character)
Speed Tier* (Character)
Forge Things Tier* (Character)
Climb Repeatedly Tier* (Character)
Marathon Running Tier* (Character)
Forge Things Repeatedly Tier* (Character)
* Treated as Tier1 for XP and Character level up but T3 for Feats and other things.



at character creation you can only choose 2 Tier1, Tier2 and Tier3 and all Tier*

[Kensen]

This is not a recommendation as such, but I thought I'd mention it anyway... I'm currently designing a simple classless system - the Goblins RPG. The Player's Guide will be about 14-18 pages long. It borrows a lot of ideas from D&D, but does away with a lot of things that I personally find unnecessary. While the core rules are 90% completed, there's still a lot of fleshing out to do, unfortunately.



<snip> and I like the idea of Characters who remain vulnerable to basic threads throughout the campaign and not rise to demigod-power levels as they progress through the levels.<snip>

That's one of my design goals. Experience and better equipment give you more options, make you more lethal and harder to kill, but even the toughest characters can be killed. Good tactics, sounds planning and reliable allies are needed to stay alive.


That's what I like so much about d20: Roll a d20, add appropriate modfiers, reach a target number. (At least in theory, before you have to considers two dozens circumstances that affect a single attack roll.)
I think it would enough if a system covers things like "attacking an enemy", "climbing a wall", "breaking a door", "jumping over a pit", and so on, and it just tells me if the character can do it or not.

Also one of my design goals. The only rolls you have to make, ever, are your initiative, attack and damage rolls. Your "perks" (equivalent of feats and class features in D&D) determine what you can do and what you can't do.


Also, the system should be able to cover a wide range of settings.

In this regard, I'm going to the opposite direction. The game is combat-oriented (grid-based combat) and the default setting assumes you play goblins (or other "wild" races), but I suppose it could be fairly easily adapted to other fantasy settings.

[Kurald Galain]

Risus reminds me of Over The Edge.

OTE also had the cool mechanic that if you describe your actions in a flavorful way, you get a bonus; whereas if you say e.g. "I hit him with my sword" you get a penalty.

[dsmiles]

I still think HoL is the best "classless" system.

[Psyx]

Runequest is pretty solid, though not simplistic.

New World of Darkness is very, very good. It has one core mechanic (roll stat+skill+any modifiers in d10. Count the number of 8 or mores that you roll) and no classes as such.

[Yora]

From you post, it sounds like you want a simple class system. In that case I can’t really help you there, other than maybe dumbing down dnd 3.5 some, or maybe trying out 4E, as it seems quite a bit simpler than 3.5 (or at least, less number crunchy).
What I really dislike about all d20 systems is the huge power difference between character levels. Unless you stick to low levels like in E6, you soon end up with characters that always hit, kill with one strike, and are impossibly to be hit themselves by low-level creatures, while there are other monsters that do the same to you.
You can fight against goblins and orcs during the low levels, but it's pointless later in the campaign. At the same time, giants just can't appear in the game at early levels, because they will instant kill every party member. The story is dictated by the rules, to a large extend, which is really unsatisfying as a GM. Also you need to go through all these levels to gain all the feats you need to effectively do certain things at all.

It's not really the classes that bug me about most class-based systems, but the way character levels are handled in almost all class-based systems I know about. If there's a class-based system that allows you to get right into adventures without killing rats and goblins first, I'm completely open to it.

[DragonOfUndeath]

if you give everything levels then it should work but giants and demi-gods etc with LA would still be off-limits for a while

[Yora]

True, but then you wonder why there haven't been any 10th level barbarian orcs before, and where all the 1st level warrior orcs have gone.
You can get around it, if you really want to make it work, but I'd rather have a system that handles such things in a better way.

[DragonOfUndeath]

i made an RPG that tries to fix some things about classes etc the link is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164784) (its quite a bit of reading though :smallredface: it took me a week and 3 overdue homehork sheets to make)

oh and you can just say you are now up against the elites or the level 1s were grunts or trainees

[Aroka]

What I really dislike about all d20 systems is the huge power difference between character levels. Unless you stick to low levels like in E6, you soon end up with characters that always hit, kill with one strike, and are impossibly to be hit themselves by low-level creatures, while there are other monsters that do the same to you.
You can fight against goblins and orcs during the low levels, but it's pointless later in the campaign. At the same time, giants just can't appear in the game at early levels, because they will instant kill every party member. The story is dictated by the rules, to a large extend, which is really unsatisfying as a GM. Also you need to go through all these levels to gain all the feats you need to effectively do certain things at all.

RuneQuest may be perfect for you. Character power scales smoothly, it's relatively easy to control how character power increases, and you never just automatically "get tougher." If a high-power character is caught without armor and protective magic, a trollkin can still crit with a spear and kill him just like when he was a noob. And even with all the protection in the world, sufficiently unfortunate circumstances (the trollkin crits and you fumble your defense - something like a 1/1000 chance - and the trollkin picks Bypass Armor and Maximum Damage results) can mean death.

Many RuneQuest campaigns, in any edition, remain grim and gritty throughout, with high-level PCs even more cautious and canny than low-level PCs - because it's their choices, not their abilities, that determine their survivability. But most of the editions (and especially Mongoose's) can also accommodate very high-level play, where PCs defeat mountain-sized monsters, take a spear through the eye and laugh, rout armies single-handedly, and change the world in fundamental ways. (Most of that isn't explicitly supported by any rules, but all of it is perfectly possible within them.)

RuneQuest characters are defined by skills and attributes. Attributes are more static, but not completely static. Skills can be increased (in old versions and in Mongoose's second edition) with training and practice, but the "main" method is experience. Whereas in old editions, successfully using a skill gave you a check that might lead to advancement (leading to horrible overspecialization inside a party, where only one character can do any one thing), in Mongoose's, the GM just hands out Advancement Rolls. These are spent on skills (the amount of advance is randomly determined and advancement slows down as the skill gets higher) and attributes (hard to increase, but on a failure you still get points in related skills).

Characters are created by rolling or assigning stats, then distributing a number of points among the skills (ranked in percentiles, from "no skill" to 1+ %, with no upper limit). Some skills may have more specific mechanics, but they're really not that necessary - if someone wants to climb a wall or jump a gorge, you decide on the difficulty, apply a bonus or penalty to the skill, and the PC rolls to see if they make it.

Mongoose's RQ introduced Heroic Abilities you can acquire through various means, but PCs don't start with these (unless you're creating more powerful starting PCs), so they're no concern. PCs may start with spells, depending on the setting; this is the closest there is to having to pick abilities, but it's really quite simple - you grab a few spells that sound good (Bladesharp/Bludgeon, Heal, Protection) from your culture's spell list for Common Magic, and can just leave other types (Divine, Spirit, Sorcery) for in-game development.


And since you're open to class-based systems too, that puts Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st or 2nd editions) on the table. It's very loosely class-based and very vaguely level-based (professions determine your advancement, you move through professions as you complete them), and it's quite lethal.

[Psyx]

"It's not really the classes that bug me about most class-based systems, but the way character levels are handled in almost all class-based systems I know about. If there's a class-based system that allows you to get right into adventures without killing rats and goblins first, I'm completely open to it."


Feng Shui.

Go out: Save the world. Get bonuses for doing it in a cool way.
It's easy to change it to a fantasy system too, with a few hours work (I use it for a very heroic Greek mythology based game).


Level based systems are basically rubbish. There aren't many left (thankfully) aside from D&D. It's artificial and annoying. I don't like to wait two months for character progression. I want to spend a game session on a ship and at the end of it say 'Hey, can I learn to sail a ship?' and spend some XP on it.

Wahammer FRP 2nd Edition is good. Although it is career based, characters can hop through careers.

[dsmiles]

If there's a class-based system that allows you to get right into adventures without killing rats and goblins first, I'm completely open to it.

HoL (classless), Talislanta (semi-classless), OWoD (storyteller system), and I'm sure there's others.

[Yora]

Is there a way to get a look at the basic rules of RuneQuest? That name has come up quite a lot, but I have really no idea how it's supposed to work.

[dsmiles]

Is there a way to get a look at the basic rules of RuneQuest? That name has come up quite a lot, but I have really no idea how it's supposed to work.

The first couple of documents here. (http://www.scribd.com/search?cat=redesign&q=runequest&x=0&y=0)

[Kiero]

Feng Shui.

Go out: Save the world. Get bonuses for doing it in a cool way.
It's easy to change it to a fantasy system too, with a few hours work (I use it for a very heroic Greek mythology based game).


Emphasis mine.

No you don't. This is a common misconception about Feng Shui, while many people might have houseruled Stunts to give bonuses, by the book you just don't get a penalty (and modifiers are based on result, not the inputs).

[Aroka]

Is there a way to get a look at the basic rules of RuneQuest? That name has come up quite a lot, but I have really no idea how it's supposed to work.

Depends on edition. Mongoose's first RQ edition had a free SRD, but now that the second is out that's mostly gone. An SRD for that is probably forthcoming. dsmiles' link just says "sorry, nothing found" to me.

A quick Google search finds this (http://mrqwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page), though. It looks legit to me (if not, happy to remove the link). The MRQ2 links are still empty, but the MRQ1 links seem to have the right content, and there's MRQ1 PDF downloads.

Do note that here are some improvements (subtle but significant) in MRQ2 compared to MRQ1, mainly in combat and magic systems.

[Renchard]

FATAL, as a system, is simply classless. Can't recommend it, though.

[dsmiles]

Depends on edition. Mongoose's first RQ edition had a free SRD, but now that the second is out that's mostly gone. An SRD for that is probably forthcoming. dsmiles' link just says "sorry, nothing found" to me.

Oh, sorry. I went to www.scribd.com and searched for runequest. The first 3 links were for the srd, the monster book and something else.

@Renchard: You could recommend it, but everybody's head would probably explode.

[Yora]

I've looked at the RuneQuest rules, but from a first glance over it, it seems even slower and more complicated than D&D, with its d%, several active defenses, seperate hp for different body parts, making roles to pull your weapon out of an impaled enemy, knockbacks, and the like... That's about the opposite I'm looking for in a combat system. :smallamused:

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think this is a game for me.

[dsmiles]

Have you looked into Talislanta? It used to be pretty simple, but I don't know what the current edition says.

[Twilight Jack]

Burning Wheel (http://www.burningwheel.org/)

It's classless, pretty simple while allowing for a lot of depth, written in an entertaining and humorous way that draws you in, and best of all FREE.

[arrowhen]

Have you thought about designing your own, either from scratch or as a hack to an existing system? It's a lot of fun!

[Yora]

I'm starting to consider it, but without any experience in any system that is not d20 based, I'm not very confident it would result in anything remotely passable. :smallbiggrin:

Have you looked into Talislanta? It used to be pretty simple, but I don't know what the current edition says.

Phew... At 30 races, 60 classes, 100 skills, and 150 traits, it is certainly not simple... :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

A couple suggestions:

Third Eye Games' "Dynamic Gaming System" is a good, simple system that still has a lot of possibilities in it. The major downside is that it's currently married to the game Apocalypse Prevention, Inc.... which is a good game, but you'd have to do most of the work of making it into other genres.

WEGs d6 system is free, fun, and easy. It was the engine behind the excellent d6 Star Wars system, and can easily be adapted to other worlds and settings.

[Britter]

Though I too would recomend Burning Wheel or Mouseguard (essentially BW lite, with a more elegant interpretation of the rules), they are not free. However, they are very affordable and are, in my opinion, some of the best products on the market today. They do operate on a different set of assumptions than DnD and similar games, and therefore they may not be right for you. It is worth spending a little time reading about the Burning Wheel, in order to get a feel for the system's premise and approach to gaming, prior to actually buying the books. Not everyone likes it, and there is enough info about how it works out there that you shouldn't have to spend money to learn if it is right for you or not.

[Kurald Galain]

No you don't. This is a common misconception about Feng Shui, while many people might have houseruled Stunts to give bonuses, by the book you just don't get a penalty (and modifiers are based on result, not the inputs).

What, if anything, is the difference between "getting a +4 bonus" and "not getting a -4 penalty"?

[Yora]

I dug up my file of Tri-Stat Ex Machina and gave it a second chance. And when I read it again now, the basic system really seems quite intriguing and could work very well for my needs in a fantasy variant.
Can anyone say something about experiences made with Tri-Stat?

[Kiero]

What, if anything, is the difference between "getting a +4 bonus" and "not getting a -4 penalty"?

Quite a lot given in FS you don't get bonuses for description. Standard modifier for a Stunt is -2, good description means that penalty isn't any higher. Especially when in FS every single point of Action Value counts. Much more than it does in D20, say, because the average is weighted around 0.

[Psyx]

Emphasis mine.

No you don't. This is a common misconception about Feng Shui, while many people might have houseruled Stunts to give bonuses, by the book you just don't get a penalty (and modifiers are based on result, not the inputs).


Well if you want to be massively pedantic about my light-hearted one sentence review of an entire game system then yes: You are correct. You win an enormous cash prize. Strictly speaking you might not be saving the world every time, either but that glaring oversight isn't as important as a mechanical one, obviously.

I was however specifically thinking of the +1 damage bonus for racking pump-action shotguns. So you forfeit your afore-mentioned cash prize for not mentioning that caveat. Sorry, chap!

[Aroka]

I've looked at the RuneQuest rules, but from a first glance over it, it seems even slower and more complicated than D&D, with its d%, several active defenses, seperate hp for different body parts, making roles to pull your weapon out of an impaled enemy, knockbacks, and the like... That's about the opposite I'm looking for in a combat system. :smallamused:

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think this is a game for me.

MRQ2 already dropped the separate dodge/parry defenses (although the option to evade still exists), and there's easy rules for locationless damage (intended for NPCs, but easily used for PCs, which would give you results pretty identical to the locationless damage in the also-BRP Elric! and the d20-instead-of-d100 Pendragon). In general, it's not complexity, it's depth. You can always limit combat options (drop everything else and just make it "opposed skill rolls to deal damage", just like Pendragon).

Also, how is a d100 more complex than any other die? It's just more granular.

[LibraryOgre]

What, if anything, is the difference between "getting a +4 bonus" and "not getting a -4 penalty"?

+/- 8. :smallamused:

[Yora]

No. :smallbiggrin:

[Knaight]

Burning Wheel (http://www.burningwheel.org/)

It's classless, pretty simple at least as heavy as GURPS while allowing for a lot of depth, written in an entertaining and humorous way that draws you in written in an unorganized an impenetrable style resembling a drunk trying to explain something, and best of all FREE about 25 bucks for the two key books.
Fixed.

That said, Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/) might work, or its cousin Fate. Fudge is by default fairly light, though heavier than Risus or Wushu, and allows extreme variety. Decisions must be made by the GM concerning which sub systems to use in a few places, and it is a bit of work up front, with there being more if you want to make a very heavy system or very light system (though a very light system is easy once you understand Fudge).

Concerning BW, I'm not calling it a bad system. It is very elegant and the mechanics were engineered to a very impressive design. It is however heavy and suffers from major presentation issues. Plus, its reasonably cheap.

[Britter]

While I like BW, I am with Knaight in that it is a big commitment to learn it in depth (though I think GURPS is a lot heavier and more intimidating to learn, and I found the presentation of BW to be fairly clear and readable. YMMV).

I really think that Mouseguard is a better break-in point for the BW style of game. A lot simpler and very elegant. It is also very modifiable in terms of setting. Don't let the fact that it is keyed into the comic as it's default setting stop you from considering it.

BW is a great system, but it takes a big time investiture to work it out well enough to use all the subsystems. In it's defense, however, you can play it using the first 70 or so pages of the rules and avoid the more complex aspects of the game until you are comfortable with giving them a whirl.

[Twilight Jack]

My apologies for making the mistake of thinking Burning Wheel was available as a free download. I was mistaken. Mea culpa.

[TheThan]

What I really dislike about all d20 systems is the huge power difference between character levels. Unless you stick to low levels like in E6, you soon end up with characters that always hit, kill with one strike, and are impossibly to be hit themselves by low-level creatures, while there are other monsters that do the same to you.
You can fight against goblins and orcs during the low levels, but it's pointless later in the campaign. At the same time, giants just can't appear in the game at early levels, because they will instant kill every party member. The story is dictated by the rules, to a large extend, which is really unsatisfying as a GM. Also you need to go through all these levels to gain all the feats you need to effectively do certain things at all.

It's not really the classes that bug me about most class-based systems, but the way character levels are handled in almost all class-based systems I know about. If there's a class-based system that allows you to get right into adventures without killing rats and goblins first, I'm completely open to it.


I see your problem, and honestly, I don’t think there’s an easy solution. Its part of the design of class/level systems, as you gain levels (IE gain power) you fight more powerful creatures. You can scale orcs and goblins up to the same power as the heroes, but its not really feasible to scale monsters down.



I dug up my file of Tri-Stat Ex Machina and gave it a second chance. And when I read it again now, the basic system really seems quite intriguing and could work very well for my needs in a fantasy variant.
Can anyone say something about experiences made with Tri-Stat?

I’m currently working on a BESM (big eyes Small Mouth) campaign setting. BESM uses the tri-stat system. I’m not having too much trouble making monsters for it. a lot of the hard part is simply figuring out how to get a certain effects. Though if you’re looking to do a typical DND style campaign setting, you shouldn’t have much trouble.

I haven’t had much experience actually using the system, as the one game I was going to play in died before it got off the ground. Which is partially why I’m making my own.

They seem to not have the multi-genra system up anymore, though you might be able to find it via torrents or something (I grabbed it a while ago, and they have apparently pulled the file off they’re site since then).

[Yora]

Psssht! We're not talking about those things from the last paragraph here. :smallamused:

Right now I'm having quite a hard time to get Tri-Stat fully figured out, but I think it's only because I haven't read through all of this three or four times yet. (I play 3.5e core with the MM only. :smallbiggrin: )
But the basic system really seems very simple. This could actually be what I'm looking for.

[The Rose Dragon]

Hey! Tri-Stat dX is free! (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=368&it=1)

Then again, so is a much better game, Witchcraft (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1).

[Kiero]

Well if you want to be massively pedantic about my light-hearted one sentence review of an entire game system then yes: You are correct. You win an enormous cash prize. Strictly speaking you might not be saving the world every time, either but that glaring oversight isn't as important as a mechanical one, obviously.

I was however specifically thinking of the +1 damage bonus for racking pump-action shotguns. So you forfeit your afore-mentioned cash prize for not mentioning that caveat. Sorry, chap!

I'm raising what is a common misconception about Feng Shui. People think because Exalted gives bonuses for stunt descriptions that Feng Shui must have done too. Many people house rule it to do so; it wasn't merely a "massively pedantic" point, but something that comes up all the time in discussions of Feng Shui.

As single exception applied to a rather trivial bit of the combat system (+1 damage is nothing compared to a bonus to AV) is hardly a justification for suggesting Feng Shui gives bonuses for colourful description. Because in the main, it doesn't.

[darkpuppy]

Guys, guys, can we get back on topic?

Tri-Stat's system is, for the most part, fairly simple to run, and can be applied to most genres with minimal house-rules, but it does have one problem similar to most generic systems... sometimes, you can have too much choice. But the rules system itself is fairly uncomplicated, and character generation doesn't take nearly as long as, say, GURPS, where you can spend a good hour and a half poking through various books for your first skills...

But yeah, Tri-Stat is a good choice. FUDGE is also useful, Risus is okay, from what I can tell... There was even Cartoon Action Hour, which, despite its focus (80s Action Hour Cartoons), can still be used to run a serious, yet rules-lite game.

But since tri-stat is free, I'd give that a go first.

[Yora]

Like GURPS, you can't just use all available options in Tri-Stat. Tri-Stat rules always beginn Character Creation with "Step 1: Check with your GM what characters are appropriate for your game." If we give it a try, I'd make some templates for them to chose from.
I think it's like True 20, in that it's really just a System-Creation-Kit and not so much an out-of-the-box game.

We played Risus last night, but it turned out to probably be too open four our campaign. But it might have went better if if I had spend more time preparing for converting a D&D adventure that includes freaky hypnosis and transmutation critters, that I had never used in a game before. :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

I’m currently working on a BESM (big eyes Small Mouth) campaign setting. BESM uses the tri-stat system. I’m not having too much trouble making monsters for it. a lot of the hard part is simply figuring out how to get a certain effects. Though if you’re looking to do a typical DND style campaign setting, you shouldn’t have much trouble.
I've got myself BESM and I think I've really fallen in love with the system. This seems to combine just the right amount of rules complexity and genre flexibility I've been looking for.
Now that I droped the basic D&D framework for my homebrew setting, I find myself with almost too much creative freedom. If I stick to BESM, I can really make up anything I want. While I already have the fluff for the PC races mostly finished, I'm kind of at a loss regarding character archetypes.
Ninja or no Ninja? Martial Artists with bare hands or with sword? Only regular mages or also Arcane knights? This really makes the entire thing far more complex then I thought. :smallbiggrin:

[FelixG]

CORTEX

best classless system i have ever played

[darkpuppy]

When creating a setting, one of the most useful questions I have asked is "why?"

For example, you ask the question of whether martial artists should use weapons or not... realistically, the answer is "yes, they do historically", but that's irrelevant. What's important is "why would they, in the context of the setting?"

Similarly, the arcane knight problem can be resolved with one either/or proposition: If magic is hard to learn, arcane knights are either stupidly powerful, eldritch beings. If magic is only moderately difficult to learn, Arcane Knights are merely the elite, much like Cyrodiil's Battle-mages. But even they sacrifice some ability in magic for their knowledge of heavy armour and weapon use.

Always think in terms of what makes things interesting, and in terms of game balance, and you won't go far wrong.

[Yora]

Some weeks ago I made the rather simple realization "Even though I can put everything I like about fantasy into my setting, I really shouldn't." I like Planescape, Warcraft, Shadow of the Colossus, Knights of the Old Republic, and Final Fantasy, but just dumping them together does not make a good setting. You only end up with a kitchen sink setting, which was one of the basic things my starting concept was not supposed to be.
I really love the idea of shadow magic, but it just would not fit right in with the system of shamans, witches, sorcerers, warlocks, and blood mages, I already have. It would be part of the setting only because I like the concept, but it doesn't have any place it would fill in my basic concept.

I probably should make up my mind if I want Wuxia Warriors who can leap over roofs, or elven guards in full plate with shields as big as themselves. While I'd like to see both in action, they don't work well next to each other.
Thanks for the nudge in that direction. :smallbiggrin:

[UserClone]

...it's like True 20, in that it's really just a System-Creation-Kit and not so much an out-of-the-box game.
I feel like it's a game, until you add the companion. Unless of course, you're talking the revised edition, which includes the contents of the companion.

[EdroGrimshell]

Try this (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/pid=47.html). It's really fun to play because you can be anything.

[TheThan]

Some weeks ago I made the rather simple realization "Even though I can put everything I like about fantasy into my setting, I really shouldn't." I like Planescape, Warcraft, Shadow of the Colossus, Knights of the Old Republic, and Final Fantasy, but just dumping them together does not make a good setting. You only end up with a kitchen sink setting, which was one of the basic things my starting concept was not supposed to be.


I have a friend that tried to do the very same thing. He tried and tried to get people to play in this setting, saying things like "you can play whatever you like", and "I have room for that in my setting too". It completely turned us all off to playing in that game. the main problem? there was no distinctness to his setting, it seemed like nothing more than a bunch of anime/scifi/fantasy troupes thrown together haphazardly.

I'm glad you've realized this. It seems like the best thing to do is to pick a genre/theme, stick with it and let your setting grow from there.