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View Full Version : warblade/wu jen/jade pheonix mage, help please?



SylvanPrincess
2010-08-18, 11:26 AM
ok, so i have 1 more day, and 1 more night to figure out my character. i have several ideas, but i wanted to see what people here could come up with-design my new character!

this a starting at level 5, with 9000 gold to buy equipment, we can use any books except magazines, but there is a restriction of 2-3 base classes and ONE prestige class. a few 3.0 classes are ok, if cleared first, such as peerless archer from silver marches

my numbers are 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 11

here are a few things that are musts:

-I am an oriental female Aasimar, but a non LA one my DM nerfed, and (ive been cleared to be a half-elf aasimar if i want to be a champion of corellon), with +2 WIS, -2CON
-I am from the oriental area of the world we will be playing in. Samurai culture is on the decline, and their beliefs dont fit with the view of the current world leaders (who kind of are eradicating anything "different")
-the current party has a human samurai, human cleric, and something else (player has not disclosed it yet), and MAYBE a whispergnome rogue

now i want to be a female sephiroth type character, can it be done??

this is the thought currently
warblade/wu jen/jade pheonix mage

ideas? this is meant to be a fun build challenge, but anything super crazy will be shot down more than likely.

DanReiv
2010-08-18, 11:54 AM
With this stat array you might, maybe, eventually, consider a monk build

Then again, would help if we knew what kind of character you'd like to play, caster, gish, skillmonkey ?

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-18, 12:02 PM
With this stat array you might, maybe, eventually, consider a monk build

Then again, would help if we knew what kind of character you'd like to play, caster, gish, skillmonkey ?

completely open, just want something that fits in a japanese setting. was considering ninja, samurai, etc, but would like a nice little multi-classed toy. my last character was a human druid/sorc/arcane heirophant. We have a first cleric (travel and luck domains), but a second isnt out of the question. ive been strongly considering a psychic warrior/samurai build, but was looking for a prc.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 12:11 PM
How about Ranger/Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)/Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm)? Has a rather appropriate oriental "monk" feel to it with all the mind-over-matter stuff Psionics has and mental mastery-stuff Slayer does. Could be combatant of any kind really; gishes lend themselves to various combat styles. Decent skills and so on. Of course, for the Wis-path you'd be better off with Ardent over Psion and that's definitely just as fine an option as well.

You could also, if you're interested in archery, do some physical Archer-build like Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10. You could easily fluff that as a zen archer of sorts. That'd be Elven, of course (Eternal Blade is Elf-exclusive), though doesn't really make that much use out of your Wis. Cleric 10/Contemplative 10 or Druid 20 should work out fine with your Wis-focus. These can, again, be built to be pretty much anything.


Really though, best we can do is suggest you stuff. Making a whole build only to...have nothing come out of it is kind of frustrating. But ideas should be a-plenty.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-18, 12:18 PM
It looks like your party needs an arcane spellcaster. Even if the undisclosed character is an arcane caster, you can always use a second one! That one prestige class limit is really harsh, considering many reasonable characters will have one base class and two prestige classes. Plus that Wisdom bonus doesn't really help most arcane casters at all, so we should find something to do with it.

Archivist (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) is an Int-basd divine caster, but gets bonus spells based on Wisdom. It can learn nearly any spell (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells) in the game, so it can do all the same tricks that arcane casters get. You don't even need to use prestige classes with it, since it actually gets class features unlike most spellcasters. Maye dip a single level into Sacred Exorcist to get Divine Metamagic, or you can go into the 3.0 Hexer from Masters of the Wild. You'll probably want at least eleven levels of Archivist to get Dread Secret, but as long as you don't lose any spellcasting levels you should do fine.

Dread Necromancer in Heroes of Horror is a Cha-based spontaneous caster, you can probably guess its specialty. You would mostly rely on undead minions to fight for you while you debuff opponents. It gets some amazing tricks, such as taking the feat Tomb-Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis to use your at-will negative energy touch to heal yourself. You'd probably want to take Arcane Disciple for the Evil domain to get access to Desecrate for creating undead minions, which means you'll want a decent (14+) Wisdom score to get access to more spells for your investment. You can also take the feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon to get early access to your next level of spells. The Ghostly Visage familiar you can get at 7th level is just amazing, it gives you constant immunity to mind-affecting effects and can use a paralyzing gaze attack in combat. Over the course of twenty levels the class gradually gives you the benefits of being a lich, eventually granting you the entire template for no level adjustment at 20th level.

Beguiler in PH2 is another great arcane spellcasting class. It focuses on illusion and enchantment, and gets skills like a rogue along with trapfinding. Outside of combat it's one of the most useful classes in the entire game, and it has plenty to contribute in a fight as well. You'd want to stay single-classed except for a single level of Mindbender at your 6th level. Versatile Spellcaster can also give you early access to the next level of spells with this class. It gains additional spells known via its Advanced Learning class feature, which with a dip in Mindbender and Versatile Spellcaster you could pick an array like Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility. Be sure to take the feats Darkstalker and Mindsight (p126) in Lords of Madness, and consider picking up the Raiment of the Four set in MIC for more spellcasting options.

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 12:20 PM
Wu-jen (CArcane) or just a wizard fluffed to be a wise old shamany woman?

You're party looks like it could use arcane support. This would bring it.

Jallorn
2010-08-18, 12:22 PM
How about Ranger/Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)/Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm)? Has a rather appropriate oriental "monk" feel to it with all the mind-over-matter stuff Psionics has and mental mastery-stuff Slayer does. Could be combatant of any kind really; gishes lend themselves to various combat styles. Decent skills and so on. Of course, for the Wis-path you'd be better off with Ardent over Psion and that's definitely just as fine an option as well.

You could also, if you're interested in archery, do some physical Archer-build like Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10. You could easily fluff that as a zen archer of sorts. That'd be Elven, of course (Eternal Blade is Elf-exclusive), though doesn't really make that much use out of your Wis. Cleric 10/Contemplative 10 or Druid 20 should work out fine with your Wis-focus. These can, again, be built to be pretty much anything.


Really though, best we can do is suggest you stuff. Making a whole build only to...have nothing come out of it is kind of frustrating. But ideas should be a-plenty.
Why Ranger/Psion when Psywar would probably work better?

DanReiv
2010-08-18, 12:33 PM
Wu-Jen has the added bonus of possessing shield on its spell list, making it a very valid candidate for the classic Abjurant Champion.

I'd say something among the line of swordsage/wujen going into abj champ for an overall decent and flavorful gish.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-18, 12:37 PM
could definitely use a caster, part of the reason i am looking into psionics a bit. taking a look at the elocater right now, pretty cool, the picture of it always threw me, but would be good for...

samurai2/psychic warrior2/elocater10/psychic warrior 6

interesting, would have 5th level powers (outa 6th total), great mobility, and the ability opportunistic strike looks like it would be awesome if combined with a composite (+3 or 4) greatbow. i always heard psychic warrior made good archers, is that tru? this could be a pretty sweet archer class maybe. or just straight up melee with the katana. ive also been cleared to have a greatbow as my ancestral daisho weapon if i choose


ill look into wu jen too. since the aasimar normall gains +2 wis, +2 cha, i could have mine get one or the other, as long as i take the -2 to con.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 12:41 PM
Why Ranger/Psion when Psywar would probably work better?

'cause Psy War wouldn't really work better? Honestly, isn't that kinda like asking "why eat apples when you can eat oranges?" Ardent is a 9th level manifester based off Wisdom tho, so I suggest that if going for Wis-base.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-18, 12:52 PM
'cause Psy War wouldn't really work better? Honestly, isn't that kinda like asking "why eat apples when you can eat oranges?" Ardent is a 9th level manifester based off Wisdom tho, so I suggest that if going for Wis-base.

the ardent has always confused me as to when it gains higher level spells? i looked into it and am still baffled (was a lil stoned though :P )

gallagher
2010-08-18, 12:56 PM
well, you might recall the mounted build i typed out in one of your previous threads, but i have another idea: go with ToB.

the hit to constitution will be harmful, but i would consider a crusader. you buff your allies, you heal, white raven, you hit things HARD, you have white raven, you have teh feel and might of what a paladin should have been, white raven is pretty good.

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 12:59 PM
the ardent has always confused me as to when it gains higher level spells?

Just look at your ML, then down at the wizard chart, then back to your ML. Your ML is now diamonds. What ever level spells a wizard could cast, you can learn. Sadly, you are not a wizard, but you can manifest powers like the wizard you smell like.

I'm on a phantom steed.

gallagher
2010-08-18, 01:01 PM
the ardent has always confused me as to when it gains higher level spells? i looked into it and am still baffled (was a lil stoned though :P )
its ok, you could be entirely sober and miss it. but they are effectively a gish in a can, and make for some seriously powerful builds

gallagher
2010-08-18, 01:03 PM
Just look at your ML, then down at the wizard chart, then back to your ML. Your ML is now diamonds. What ever level spells a wizard could cast, you can learn. Sadly, you are not a wizard, but you can manifest powers like the wizard you smell like.

I'm on a phantom steed.

even at lower levels, you can make a cake in a kitchen that i conjured for you

btw, that is now in my sig

Amphetryon
2010-08-18, 01:05 PM
Fire Shugenja/Sacred Exorcist. :smallsmile:

DanReiv
2010-08-18, 01:42 PM
So I'll post up my final proposition :smallbiggrin:

Swordsage4/Sorcerer 1 at start, going to Swordsage4/Sorcerer5/Abj Champion 5.

At this point you have 5th level spells (wings of cover/ruin's delver fortune are cool and Sorc only spells), which you can all burn for various bonus as a swift action, a +9 swift extended shield for every lvl 1 spell slot, +10BAB, and 9th Initiator level.

I'd finish with swordsage to pull up some very nasty Swooping Dragon Strike (DC vs Stun : your jump check) and still gaining a few CL.

kestrel404
2010-08-18, 04:13 PM
My recommendation:
Swordsage/Psywar/Slayer

Elocator is nice, but it's 3/4 BAB, 7/10 progression and requires 3 mostly useless feats (mobility requires dodge).
Slayer is full BAB, 9/10 progression, and only requires 1 feat.

Swordsage is also more synergystic with a high wis score, while samurai prefers to have high Charisma. And if you want to have the samurai's flavor, take weapon proficiency bastard sword and pretend to be a samurai.

The build would be Swordsage 2/Psywar 4/Slayer 10/Whatever x. Choose to specialize in only one or two schools of maneuver. Definitely take the Practiced Manifester feat as one of your first 2 psywar feats. Other than that, just have fun and take what you like. Lots of good options there.

Hope that helps.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-18, 06:37 PM
i had a thought today while i was at work.

ninja/psychic warrior(psion?)/elocater

i know it has a lower bab, but... cool ninja concept, a psionic ninja! i like it, can it be done well? sudden strike/ghost step + elocater's opportunistic strike is neat- would it work with combat reflexes? great leap and dimension hop is a cool flavor for a ninja, plus if i used psychic warrior instead of psion, i could have psionic lions charge. using expand to become a large or huge ninja would be pretty cool when you ghost step and squash someone heheh

sounds like i may want to look into this further, any thoughts about this? is it bad? i am doing this game for the flavor of the character as well, not just optimizing.

also, im not sure about using ToB, its cool stuff, but something i think id want to use only if someone else in the party was. just not sure, otherwise, swordsage would be sweet

the thing about slayer is i dont think there is much of a reason to have psionic defenses in this world, and its fav enemy is only psionic creatures

thanks for all the responses so far, and thanks again to those who have bounced around my indecisive threads :smallredface: tomorrow is the deadline though!

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 06:56 PM
i know it has a lower bab, but... cool ninja concept, a psionic ninja! i like it, can it be done well? sudden strike/ghost step + elocater's opportunistic strike is neat- would it work with combat reflexes? great leap and dimension hop is a cool flavor for a ninja, plus if i used psychic warrior instead of psion, i could have psionic lions charge. using expand to become a large or huge ninja would be pretty cool when you ghost step and squash someone heheh

sounds like i may want to look into this further, any thoughts about this? is it bad? i am doing this game for the flavor of the character as well, not just optimizing.

Just remember, you don't have to have any levels in class named "Ninja" to be a Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). And you could probably do better with Ardent than Psy War unless you have some specific feats you feel you need; Ardent's Mantles allow you to customize what you need quite perfectly.

You could also instead make a spellcasting gish; that'd give you consistent access to Greater Invisibility among other things. But yeah, Psionic "Ninja" could definitely be done.


also, im not sure about using ToB, its cool stuff, but something i think id want to use only if someone else in the party was. just not sure, otherwise, swordsage would be sweet

the thing about slayer is i dont think there is much of a reason to have psionic defenses in this world, and its fav enemy is only psionic creatures

Well, the psionic defenses work against all manners of magic quite well. And Favored Enemy...ask DM to switch it to something appropriate for the world if Psionics and Psionic entities are that rare.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-19, 07:57 PM
what would sephiroth be if you designed him using up to 3 classes and one prc?

kestrel404
2010-08-19, 08:33 PM
Sephiroth from ff7? Warblade/wizard/jade Phoenix Mage.
Without ToB? Duskblade/wizard/ultimate magus.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-19, 11:37 PM
hmmm....interesting combos there. i totally feel that sephiroth from ff7 woulf be a maneuver sort of class..... but without, yeah you may have nailed it deuskblade, wizaard ultimate magus seems appropriate. ima think on this. it seems to me always that he had more hp than straight up casters, but... most of his stuff seems spontaneous casting at its best.

the thing is, how would u design his antithesis, a lawful good, female, version?

the humanity
2010-08-20, 01:14 AM
hmmm...

maybe a sorcadin type...

start out Paladin 2/Battle sorcerer 3, and take it from there.

or, swashbuckler 3/ wizard 2...

if you take the right prestige class, it could still work, I think.

(I haven't played FF7, just heard a lot about sephiroth)

JeminiZero
2010-08-20, 01:48 AM
the thing is, how would u design his antithesis, a lawful good, female, version?

What? Aeris? :smalltongue: Anyway, my ECL 25 imagining of Sephiroth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9114697&postcount=84) might give you some ideas.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-20, 08:07 PM
Sephiroth from ff7? Warblade/wizard/jade Phoenix Mage.
Without ToB? Duskblade/wizard/ultimate magus.

i really like the first one here, what would the breakdown be? i dont know warblade well enuf, i know the swordsage. and might wu jen be better, especially if i can have its lev 6 elemental mastery abillity (choosing fire)? that way, with the jade pheonix mage, ill be casting fire spells at a + 3 caster level. also think its nuts that the jpmage is full bab. i love it! the only thing i might seitch is wizard for wu jen (C. arcane), for a more oriental flavor, and some of its abilites mesh nicely- if i can take many levels of it.

warblade 2/wu jen 3/jade pheonix mage 10...finish?

Starbuck_II
2010-08-20, 08:16 PM
what would sephiroth be if you designed him using up to 3 classes and one prc?

Mystic Ranger [favored enemy (arcanists)] with Sword of Arcane Order feat. Advance into Abrupt Champion or Swiftblade (if Ranger Wizard spells count as Arcane) or Suel Arcanamach?

DanReiv
2010-08-21, 11:00 AM
Depends if you want to end with 9th level spells.

Warblade1/Wujen9/JPM10 will give you that.

Or a more combat oriented character.

7th level spells would be

Warblade5/Wujen5/JPM10

5th levels spells would be

Warblade9/Wujen1/JPM10

After that it's all about working around the build to get nice TOB stuff but since JPM counts as full toward initiator level, it shouldn't be too hard.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-21, 11:18 AM
Mystic Ranger [favored enemy (arcanists)] with Sword of Arcane Order feat. Advance into Abrupt Champion or Swiftblade (if Ranger Wizard spells count as Arcane) or Suel Arcanamach?

sorry, but i think im going with warblade/spellcaster/jade phoenix mage.

warblade/wizard/jade phoenix mage
a nuts combo i feel for sure. what i want to change is the wizard part. i really feel that for flavor reasons, it should be a spontaneous caster, and am here to ask the boards if other casters are worth a look?

i feel that the battle sorc fits. for those of you unfamiliar with it, go here http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedCoreClass.html#battle-sorcerer. it has a higher hit die, and can wear light armor with no spell failure. it is super limited in its spells however, something sephiroth wasnt (he had damage and flight/teleport spells, right?). the problem is that while id end up with 17 BAB, id only have 9th level spells

the others i can think of are wu jen, and wizard. wu jen would be good, because i am from an oriental part of the world we'll be playing in, plus it gets some nice abilities that totally syngergize with jade phoenix mage. it has a decent spell list with a lot of the same spells as wizard

wizard is the complete opposite of what i feel fits here flavor-wise, but probably has the most potential in terms of spells. but it just doesnt feel right.

details about the character:
numbers: 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 11
race: female aasimar (no LA), with +2 cha, -2 con, OR +2 wis, -2 con.
GOOD, whether lawful or chaotic
starting at 5th level
i come from a samurai family in the world we'll be in, but will by no means be in an asian setting often.
this build could only be made with 3 base classes, and a prc. should i take a lev of samurai for the ancestral daisho, as well as flavor reasons?

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-21, 11:33 AM
Depends if you want to end with 9th level spells.

Warblade1/Wujen9/JPM10 will give you that.

Or a more combat oriented character.

7th level spells would be

Warblade5/Wujen5/JPM10

5th levels spells would be

Warblade9/Wujen1/JPM10

After that it's all about working around the build to get nice TOB stuff but since JPM counts as full toward initiator level, it shouldn't be too hard.

yeah, i like combat oriented, but with high spells, which is why i think the battle sorc variant from unearthed arcana might just be the best choice. itd only get 8th level spells, but itd have a BAB 17/12/7/2 AND 8th level spells! im not sure id miss the 9th level ones if i can deal massive damage with my weapon while blasting- dont forget, itd also have (i think) an initiator level of 10, so it could use 5th level maneuvers.

Rad
2010-08-21, 12:12 PM
Battle sorcerer is a trap!
Really, if you are building a gish you won't take many levels and one point of BAB is nothing compared to more spells known. Casting in light armor is also duplicated much more easily by armor special qualities like mithral or twilight that bring the ASF down to 0%. I would go with Wu-Jen all the way!

BTW: will you ever get to the high teen levels? Most campaigns I played in ended or fell apart way before that. Even so, you might talk your DM in taking Abjurant Chapion levels after you finish JPM. Or vice versa.

Just my 2cp

DanReiv
2010-08-21, 12:33 PM
I dislike battle sorc as well, and find warblade/wu jen/JPM to be both good and fitting the fluff.

You can have the armor when you start btw.

+1 mithril twilight chain shirt cost 5250 gold for +5AC, +6 Max Dex, 0 Penalty, 0% ASF.

8th level spells would be warblade3/wu-jen7/JPM10.

I'd start wujen4/warblade1 since your party is lacking an arcanist, and to put the armor to good use from the start.

Edit : If you really want some ancestral daisho of sort you should take a look at the ancestral relic feat from BoED rather than a dip in samurai.

You're good, lvl5, and has enough money to buy a masterwork weapon of your choice.

Pechvarry
2010-08-21, 03:51 PM
Just to toss this out there:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144226

Basically, when I was building my warblade/wu jen/JPM, I realized that if you can get 7th level spells, you can cast Body Outside Body, getting a bunch of clones. Each of these clones technically have all of your class features and feats -- including spells prepared. They simply are unable to cast spells. This means that while you can explode in a ball of fire once per week, so can every single clone you make. They can also feasibly blow all their spell levels on Arcane Strike, the similar class feature of JPMs, and the Abjurant Champion abilities if you can get to level 4 in that class. Finally, I don't see a reason they can't initiate maneuvers. This gets pretty gross if you have White Raven Tactics.

For extra fun, grab the Trickery Domain. Each of your clones creates a 2nd generation clone.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-22, 01:08 AM
I dislike battle sorc as well, and find warblade/wu jen/JPM to be both good and fitting the fluff.

You can have the armor when you start btw.

+1 mithril twilight chain shirt cost 5250 gold for +5AC, +6 Max Dex, 0 Penalty, 0% ASF.

8th level spells would be warblade3/wu-jen7/JPM10.

I'd start wujen4/warblade1 since your party is lacking an arcanist, and to put the armor to good use from the start.

Edit : If you really want some ancestral daisho of sort you should take a look at the ancestral relic feat from BoED rather than a dip in samurai.

You're good, lvl5, and has enough money to buy a masterwork weapon of your choice.

i know what your saying, and i like wu jen a LOT, but i also like that extra 18 hp from the battle sorc. also like that it isnt a learned spellcasting class, but is instead spontaneous.

the thing i feel wu jen has going for it completely is its 'elemental mastery: fire' for +2 caster level on fire spells, combined with the phoenix mage's +1, then +3, = +6 fire caster level!

now, what weapon should i get with 2700 gp left (i spent 6300 on my armor- a twilight mithril brestplate)

TaintedLight
2010-08-22, 01:14 AM
i know what your saying, and i like wu jen a LOT, but i also like that extra 18 hp from the battle sorc. also like that it isnt a learned spellcasting class, but is instead spontaneous.

the thing i feel wu jen has going for it completely is its 'elemental mastery: fire' for +2 caster level on fire spells, combined with the phoenix mage's +1, then +3, = +6 fire caster level!

now, what weapon should i get with 2700 gp left (i spent 6300 on my armor- a twilight mithril brestplate)

2700 leaves you with enough money for a +1 weapon. That's about it. A +1 weapon costs 2000 (+1 enhancement total) + 300 (masterwork) +base cost of the weapon, so the biggest choice is the base weapon's type. I'll take this opportunity to shamelessly plug Greater Mighty Wallop and suggest a two handed bludgeoning weapon like a greatclub since you can cast 3rd level spells. Only do that if you go with Wizard or Sorcerer, though. Wu Jen don't get that spell.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-22, 02:01 AM
so a keen mw european greatsword? very soul blade looking

so then if i do go wizard, is the domain wizard worth looking into? and working with the dm to make an arcane travel domain?

TaintedLight
2010-08-22, 02:05 AM
so a keen mw european greatsword? very soul blade looking

Technically speaking, you cannot have a keen weapon that is not also a +1 weapon. In other words, the lowest priced keen weapon is a +1 keen weapon (+2 enhancement bonus) which is 8000 +mwk weapon price. I know plenty of DMs who waive this rule though, allowing for normal flaming longswords that are only flaming and not +1, so ask your DM what their policy is. If any old weapon is available and all you can get is +1, the greatsword is a fine choice.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-22, 02:13 AM
Technically speaking, you cannot have a keen weapon that is not also a +1 weapon. In other words, the lowest priced keen weapon is a +1 keen weapon (+2 enhancement bonus) which is 8000 +mwk weapon price. I know plenty of DMs who waive this rule though, allowing for normal flaming longswords that are only flaming and not +1, so ask your DM what their policy is. If any old weapon is available and all you can get is +1, the greatsword is a fine choice.

see i always thought the rule was that the weapon only had to be masterwork in order to enchant it?

TaintedLight
2010-08-22, 02:14 AM
see i always thought the rule was that the weapon only had to be masterwork in order to enchant it?

Close. All magic weapons are automatically masterwork.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-22, 02:24 AM
Close. All magic weapons are automatically masterwork.

oh *crestfallen*

TaintedLight
2010-08-22, 02:27 AM
oh *crestfallen*

Like I said, a lot of groups waive that whole rule, so see if your DM will. I like the vicious property personally. A nice damage bonus with a drawback for fun.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-22, 02:32 AM
so then, as i said earlier, if i go wizard, is the domain wizard variant worth checking out? maybe with a travel domain?

TaintedLight
2010-08-22, 02:35 AM
so then, as i said earlier, if i go wizard, is the domain wizard variant worth checking out? maybe with a travel domain?

I never used that particular variant, but I've found a great deal of success in playing a Focused Specialist (ACF from CMag) in transmutation when I do gishes. Transmutation has all the buffs like haste and fly, plus some other sexy stuff at higher levels. All the Heart of X from CMag and Bite of the Y from SpC are also Trans.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-22, 02:41 AM
You could just spend three feats. Martial Study twice, giving you some skills as class skills, which is always nice, and Martial Stance once. Then you'd not lose too many spellcasting levels.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-22, 11:08 AM
im not losing any sc levels though... *confused*

i need to decide asap between wu jen and specialist wizard :(

plus i really want it to be spontaneous caster, for flavor

DeltaEmil
2010-08-22, 12:23 PM
Normally, if you multi-class as a spell-caster, you have to take levels that do not advance your spellcasting abilities.
So if you started as a level 4 wizard and had to take three levels in warblade to qualify for jade phoenix mage at the next level-up (only an example), that means you only cast spells as well as a level 4 wizard, having then only access to level 2 spells (stuff like glitterdust, alter self, misdirection).
Another character with 7 levels purely in wizards would get and cast the good and powerful level 4 spells (wall of fire, black tentacle, charm monster).

By taking feats instead of taking 1 or 2 warblade levels for qualifying for jade phoenix mage (assuming that this is correct), you keep advancing in your spellcasting levels without delay.

Or in that case, to become a jade phoenix mage (you need to know two martial maneuvers, including one strike, and a stance, while being able to cast 2nd-level arcane spell), you have to either take 5 levels wizard and 1 level warblade, 4 level wizard and 2 level warblade, 3 level wizards and 3 level warblade, or 6 level wizard with 3 feats (or four?) invested in martial maneuvers to qualify for that prestige class.

The last option allows you to be able to cast and select spells from higher levels earlier than the other options.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-22, 12:24 PM
im not losing any sc levels though... *confused*
Is your current build Battle Sorcerer 9/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10?

If it is, you're 'losing' 3 spellcasting levels, compared to Battle Sorcerer 20 -- 4, when compared to Wizard or Wu Jen 10.

What DeltaEmil is suggesting is that you go Spellcaster 10/Jade Phoenix Mage 10, instead, so you only 'lose' 2 levels.

From what you've said so far in this thread, I think the best match for what you're looking for would be:

Ardent 5/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage* 10/Ardent 4.

*adapted to be Evil-aligned and Psionic -- (exchange "2PP" for "spell level" in the arcane strike-equivalent ability and it should work pretty smoothly)

I think this is a good idea because:

The Ardent's manifesting works like a more elegant spontaneous casting.
The Ardent is based on Wisdom, which you should be able to boost higher than Int.
The Ardent works in a frame similar to the Battle Sorcerer's (3/4 BA, can use armor, d6 HD)
The Ardent multiclasses well when using Practiced Manifester (it doesn't delay Power level progression, so long as it advances Manifester levels).
A Crusader dip can fill Devoted Spirit prerequisites, allowing access to higher-level maneuvers via JPM.
The Crusader's recovery mechanism doesn't compete with your powers and class abilities for Swift Action slots.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-22, 12:29 PM
yeah i was just reading the feats u listed, good idea, and ill have to think on it some. i want good hp, and warblade certainly has that. but its only 1 level...

interesting, and awesome, it opens up the possibility of taking a level of samurai with maneuvers, thats cool. i know its not your point however.

i see your point about casting progression being slower, but i am trying to be more melee than caster, and so the hit die of the warblade, as well as the d8 from battle sorc into the d10 from jpm all attract me


good points, but i want to be good. having the jpm be psionic would be sic, i will bring that up

ok, i have to go to work for a few hours, the game starts tonight at around 10oclock, so i will check back here when i get home around 6ish and see if there is anything else posted. thanks so much you all for helping, i think this will be a sweet fun character to play :)

Greenish
2010-08-22, 04:43 PM
The last option allows you to be able to cast and select spells from higher levels earlier than the other options.Yeah, but without dipping into an initiator class, you won't have a mechanism to renew maneuvers.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-22, 05:23 PM
Recovering maneuvers during a combat won't be that necessarily, as you're going to rely on spells like a normal full-spellcaster anyway, and the jade phoenix mage abilities concerning the use of martial maneuvers are rather mediocre, as you need to hit with a melee maneuver in a round, to be allowed to cast a metamagically modified spell the next round., or waste a spell to do more damage with your physical attacks, which are rather going to be a rarity amongst spell-casters.
Only the late abilities gained from more levels in jade phoenix mage are kinda good.
Most battles will be over in maximally 6 rounds, and if you have to use half of them punching another dude to cast your spells (they have to be strike maneuvers), it's not going to be so important like for true adepts of the sublime ways.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 09:13 AM
Recovering maneuvers during a combat won't be that necessarily, as you're going to rely on spells like a normal full-spellcaster anyway, and the jade phoenix mage abilities concerning the use of martial maneuvers are rather mediocre, as you need to hit with a melee maneuver in a round, to be allowed to cast a metamagically modified spell the next round., or waste a spell to do more damage with your physical attacks, which are rather going to be a rarity amongst spell-casters.
Only the late abilities gained from more levels in jade phoenix mage are kinda good.
Most battles will be over in maximally 6 rounds, and if you have to use half of them punching another dude to cast your spells (they have to be strike maneuvers), it's not going to be so important like for true adepts of the sublime ways.I thought the OP wanted a gish, where hitting people is the point?

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-23, 12:27 PM
I thought the OP wanted a gish, where hitting people is the point?

yeah, basically thats what i want, a sturdy WARRIOR who can cast spells to augment her own abilities along with a few massive damage spells later on. im not sure 9th level spells are incredibly important, but wouldnt hurt.

the idea is to be a chaotic/lawful good female version of sephiroth. it doesnt need to be optimized as i want a few things for flavor purposes.

flavor:
-Aasimar +2 wis (or +2 cha), -2 con.
-japanese part of the world, so classes that fit there. almost any work.
-must be a spontaneous caster! this is important to me, that my spell ability be inborn. no books! lol
-2-3 base classes and ONE prc may be used
-id like a full bab, but 3/4 is alright too
-id like to avoid d4 hit die if possible. thats why the phoenix mage is sweet, but...
-i still have reservations using ToB. a lot of the prcs' abilities seem grossly over powered.

lately ive been thinking a lot about the 2 feats 'martial maneuver" and "martial stance" that let u learn feats and stances without swordsage/warblade, etc. i think it would be sweet to have say, a ninja/sorc with maneuvers, or a samurai with maneuvers and stances. our group still need an arcane caster, and a part time skill monkey(our rogue may not be able to make it every game)

Keld Denar
2010-08-23, 02:21 PM
A pretty sweet PrC for you at this point would be Suel Arcanamach (CArcane). Its Cha based spontaneous casting from Transmutation, Illusion, Divination, and Abjuration, which contains most of the good Gish spells. You won't have any blasting outside of possibly a couple of crappy Transmutations (although Whirling Blade is a pretty effective "blast"), but you'll be all buff and beaty. Suel Arcanamach requires +6 BAB and some skills, but you could easily get into it with Duskblade2/Warblade4/SuelX. Duskblade gives you Combat Casting for free and the knowledges and arcane skills you need to get into Suel, and Warblade keeps you at maximal beatstickiness. Take Versatile Spellcaster and you'll be able to use your Duskblade casting for your Suel spells, and vise versa. Suel progresses casting a little faster at the start, even though you have to wait till ECL7 to get into it. It would be ideal if you could advance your Suel Arcanamach casting with Jade Phoenix Mage, but you mentioned that you are only allowed one PrC ever. Still, Suel has some ok features.

Thoughts?

DeltaEmil
2010-08-23, 02:48 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage is definitely not overpowered, and polymorphing yourself into another form with superior strength is superior to taking a prestice class with a measly d8 hit die and the loss of two spell-casting levels, while only gaining three or so maneuvers makes it rather weak. Stylish, but nothing to worry about.

Shyftir
2010-08-23, 04:52 PM
I am currently running a JPM who got there by mixing Duskblade and swordsage, Is he as beastly as a full caster? no, do I care... no.
My build is currently

Duskblade 5/Swordsage2/JPM 3

I get medium armor (I lost my Swordsage Wis to AC, but since wisdom is not important to the character...) A lot of maneuvers per encounter, spontaneous casting (only level 2 spells, but lots of spells) With practiced spell-caster, I still have full caster level for beating spell resistance.

Anyway, it's not a super-powerful spell-casting build, but it's fun and very gishy.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-23, 04:54 PM
If you want an easy build and spontaneous casting, but balk at maneuvers, you could do a lot worse than Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/BS 8

You'd get the full benefits of AbjChamp on a decent framework without looking cheesy. The spellcasting takes a hit compared to a straight sorcerer, but it's comparable to most sorcerer gishes.

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-23, 07:42 PM
A pretty sweet PrC for you at this point would be Suel Arcanamach (CArcane). Its Cha based spontaneous casting from Transmutation, Illusion, Divination, and Abjuration, which contains most of the good Gish spells. You won't have any blasting outside of possibly a couple of crappy Transmutations (although Whirling Blade is a pretty effective "blast"), but you'll be all buff and beaty. Suel Arcanamach requires +6 BAB and some skills, but you could easily get into it with Duskblade2/Warblade4/SuelX. Duskblade gives you Combat Casting for free and the knowledges and arcane skills you need to get into Suel, and Warblade keeps you at maximal beatstickiness. Take Versatile Spellcaster and you'll be able to use your Duskblade casting for your Suel spells, and vise versa. Suel progresses casting a little faster at the start, even though you have to wait till ECL7 to get into it. It would be ideal if you could advance your Suel Arcanamach casting with Jade Phoenix Mage, but you mentioned that you are only allowed one PrC ever. Still, Suel has some ok features.

Thoughts?

Keld Denar:i like it, i like it a lot, but i dont like the separate spell casting progression. that right there is going to make it weak, at least i think so. getting 1st level spells at level 7?i dont know. i like the spells from those schools, but seems underpowered.

now if it advanced your spells + 1 level in those schools from an existing base, then cool. if i already have 2nd level spells in Transmutation, Illusion, Divination, and Abjuration, and it increased them plus ten caster levels at the end of the class, that seems more worthwhile. if i can some how get my dm to agree to that, then this is a great look :)

EDITED: ive thought about it, and having 5th level spells when you could have 7th stinks, but the fact that you can enter it from a fighter makes up for it. looking into it more closely now. seems that i would want to have arcane channeling at level 3 if i were to use duskblade. plus the duskblade is based offa int, and thats going to be a lower stat for me.

badgers: i like it, its to the point. its not i that balks at maneuvers, but i have a friend who doesnt have access to all the books i do, and tend to think everything is overpowered. i dont want to do an optimized build that he ends up thinking is unfair, i want everyone to be happy. that being said, he is going to be cleric 20 luck and travel domains, and id like to be able to match his contributions to the game when he discovers how awesome a cleric truly is :smallbiggrin:

shyftir: i like that build, and i thought about it a little bit, but if i did jpm, i would want to have a quick caster progression to take advantage of arcane wrath, and actually build the build around arcane wrath, maybe without even taking a second level of jade phoenix mage. my thought was warblade 1/wizard 18/phoenix mage 2

SylvanPrincess
2010-08-23, 10:15 PM
thinking more about duskblade leading into seul arcaramach, and if i just went straight 6 levels of duskblade, id have second level spells, all of a type the arcanamach will be getting at lev2 (cl 8). is it worth it to have the extra spells? it seems that duskblade/arcanamach is redundant a little bit, with both lessening arcane spell failure. and they both only count when casting spells from their own lists. the fact that it receives combat casting is nice, but i could get that by taking 2 levels of samurai, plus ancestral daisho.

warblade 3/swashbuckler 3/arcanamach 10 seems more synergistic maybe, fighting with a keen frost wakizashi..or 2. though know that i think of it, i forgot the spellcraft skill req

i think the requirement to gain a second prc, is to be either level 20, or completely finish a prc (3 and 5 level prcs not counting in this tally)

going for a non-maneuver version, i like the sound of
samurai 1/duskblade 5/arcanamach 10. its similar to your build, in that i would take the versatile caster feat, and then be able to ...cast more?

also, i just discovered the 5th level spell shadow evocation (illusion school), which lets u mimic any 4th level or lower evoc spell- but if the target suceeds a save, it is disbelieved, or in the case of a damage spell like fireball, only takes 20% damage. that makes for a little bit more blasting for the ol arcanamach! is it worth a spell known slot?