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Forever Curious
2010-08-18, 12:52 PM
So, in a campaign I'm in, the DM has made it known to me that we'll be fighting a ECL 24 Gestalt Druid with all the fun little Wildshape cheese (Planar Shepard, master of Many Forms, etc... and can apparently Wildshape into Jubilex...) The party is ECL 15, made up of a Warforged Archivist/Divine Oracle (me), a Sphinx Artificer, A Human Wizard/Master Abjurer/Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil, a Human Favored Soul, a Wing Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7962320&postcount=47) Lion Totem Barbarian, and a Giant Eagle Ranger/Hulking Hurler.

Please, Playground, can we defeat such a challenge and, if so, how?

EDIT: Not Gestalt.

dsmiles
2010-08-18, 12:54 PM
So, in a campaign I'm in, the DM has made it known to me that we'll be fighting a ECL 24 Gestalt Druid with all the fun little Wildshape cheese (Planar Shepard, master of Many Forms, etc... and can apparently Wildshape into Jubilex...) The party is ECL 15, made up of a Warforged Archivist/Divine Oracle (me), a Sphinx Artificer, A Human Wizard/Master Abjurer/Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil, a Human Favored Soul, a Wing Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7962320&postcount=47) Lion Totem Barbarian, and a Giant Eagle Ranger/Hulking Hurler.

Please, Playground, can we defeat such a challenge and, if so, how?

Paralyze him? (Hold Monster/Hold Person)

Fearan
2010-08-18, 01:14 PM
Wind dragon is a 20-level monster class, right? How did you get Lion barb at ECL 15?

Forever Curious
2010-08-18, 01:18 PM
Wind dragon is a 20-level monster class, right? How did you get Lion barb at ECL 15?

*shrug* The DM let him.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-18, 01:18 PM
Do you know what he's gestalted with? A ECL24 Gestalt against a lvl15 non-gestalt party is tough enough, we need as much info as possible.

Forever Curious
2010-08-18, 01:19 PM
Do you know what he's gestalted with? A ECL24 Gestalt against a lvl15 non-gestalt party is tough enough, we need as much info as possible.

I lied, the Druid is NOT Gestalt. Edited first post.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-18, 01:21 PM
Can you wildshape inside an AMF? If not you should use an AMF and beat him the old fashion way

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 01:22 PM
Attack his Ref save and Touch AC viciously and savagely. Those tend to be weakish points for droods. Unfortunately, most of these things only inflict HP damage, but if you amp it up with metamagic, HP damage can be consequential.

crazedloon
2010-08-18, 01:27 PM
have all the casters but 1 debuff his save than hit him with Involuntary Shapeshifting (RoE) now for the next 7 rounds he will do nothing but shift into new forms around the 7th round hit him with it again (with some debuffs first) rinse and repeat. He will spend most turns just changing shape and moving (with a few quickened spells in there so just have a wizard ready to dispell the quickened spells and you should be good with those)

That or Antimagic field and beat him to death

Forever Curious
2010-08-18, 01:30 PM
Does entering an Antimagic field force him back in his original form?

Arbitrarity
2010-08-18, 01:35 PM
Yes, Wildshape is Supernatural, which means it's disabled in Anti-Magic zones.

Vangor
2010-08-18, 01:45 PM
Assay Spell Resistance (SpC 4th Level), which is a Swift Action, Maximized Shivering Touch (Frost 3rd Level raised to 6th), and employ a Belt of Battle (MiC) if you have one in order to do a second. Both the Archivist and the Wizard (if he has not barred Necromancy) as well as the Artificer through obvious means can do this, and each is 3d6 Dex damage. Divine Power should give the Archivist little chance to miss on as a touch attack, and the Assay will reduce SR by 10 which should give an equal chance to penetrate assuming no other bonuses and 11+24 SR on the Druid, which assumes the ECL 24 Druid is strictly 24 HD/Levels with a source of SR.

I doubt the Druid will last through two connects, which is 36 Dex damage.

Greenish
2010-08-18, 02:09 PM
Hire a Church Inquisitor to touch him.

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 02:26 PM
Oh...sure...just because certain church officials get in trouble for bad touches, its all of a sudden acceptable for Inquisitors to get all touchy feely?

You sir, are disgusting!

The Glyphstone
2010-08-18, 02:35 PM
Oh...sure...just because certain church officials get in trouble for bad touches, its all of a sudden acceptable for Inquisitors to get all touchy feely?

You sir, are disgusting!

At least we can be certain the DM will never expect it.

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 02:36 PM
4/10...needs more fear...and surprise.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-18, 02:38 PM
At least he's got the ruthless efficiency down already.

DanReiv
2010-08-18, 02:40 PM
Please, Playground, can we defeat such a challenge and, if so, how?

Might as well do something else, if your "dm" is willing to unleash the full cheese of MoMF/PS on you, well, you're doomed. In one round exactly (that had be 1/10 of his)

LibraryOgre
2010-08-18, 03:19 PM
Wand of Polymorph. Force him to burn actions changing into whatever he wants.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 03:19 PM
Might as well do something else, if your "dm" is willing to unleash the full cheese of MoMF/PS on you, well, you're doomed. In one round exactly (that had be 1/10 of his)

If he's a MoMF it's not that bad. It's the "Planar Shepherd" and "9th level spells"-parts that cause issues. That said, as long as he doesn't have Epic Spellcasting and doesn't use SLA Wishes and other fun stuff, you might have a prayer. AMFs work as long as he doesn't use epic magic (if he does, you're pretty much ****ed anyways), and you're on the levels where you can already offensively use AMFs.

The Master Abjurer hopefully has incredibly inflated Dispel-check so he could hope to knock his spells out; too bad he's one away from Kaleidoscopic Doom... Scrolls of Disjunction seem like good idea; his items will survive but his buffs will vaporize.


Try to avoid stuff that gives SR or save tho; his saves are most likely astronomical (comes with being a Druid) and if he uses the SR-spell (probably), his spell resistance is at least 36 (well, assuming he doesn't have that many MoMF levels). Could easily be 40 or 44 or even 46.

Now, that's the kinda number where even Assay Resistance and True Casting combined will only give you a ~50/50 chance of penetrating it. So...yeah, no-save no-sr spells like AMF, Disjunction, etc. should be the main tool.


As for turning into Jubilex; he has access to Shapechange, and Planar Shepherd's Wildshape does that easy so...he actually has multiple ways of going about that.

jiriku
2010-08-18, 04:44 PM
What's your group capable of? How much damage per round can you reliably deal against typical threats right now? Generally speaking, if you can find a way to pile on 500 damage that bypasses spell resistance and saves, that's typically enough to surprise most DMs.

I'm assuming here that your DM is intending this to be a winnable encounter and doesn't have experience playing highly optimized high-level characters. If he plays an ECL 24 full caster to its full potential, your level 15 party has zero chance of success.

Ernir
2010-08-18, 06:30 PM
How high can you buff the Hulking Hurler's carrying capacity? If the druid isn't immune to HP damage, getting a mountain in the face might hurt it enough.

Gnaeus
2010-08-18, 06:30 PM
Honestly, he is probably much better WITHOUT MoMF. He wants to change into outsiders, which is Planar Shepherd. Fast wild shape is easily obtained by feats or items. We can probably assume that he didn't gimp himself out of 9th level spells by getting evershifting form, so his build is probably something like Druid 7/MoMF7/PlS 10. (other likely build is Druid 11/MoMF 3/ PlS 10. Hope he didn't pick this one, as he has epic casting this way. MoMF is a 3, 7, or 10 level class.)

What does that mean? He does have 9th level spells. But you have 3 party members with 8th level spells and 1 with 7th. He is only (probably) 3 caster levels above you (in a manifest zone), so you have a pretty good shot at counterspelling him. The only real threat, as I see it, is abuse of Planar Bubble to break the action economy by throwing himself into a fast time plane. Stay within 20 feet of him and you should be able to crush him, just by taking 5-13 actions for every 2-3 he gets.

As an aside, Shapechange is into any nonunique creature, so probably can't become Jubilex that way unless there is a trick I don't know. So it will be wild shape.