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Person_Man
2010-08-18, 01:28 PM
So there's a chance I'll be playing in a mid-high level game where the DM has announced that his game world will be in the midst of a "Time of Troubles" where the magic rules are wacky. Some areas may be dead magic, some wild, some areas will function under modified conditions, some normal, etc. These areas will also effect Supernatural abilities and Psionics. Normally I'd embrace this challenge, but the other players in the group have already decided to play a Wizard, Druid, Cleric, and Beguiler. Thus I thought it might be interesting and useful to have at least one player who eschewed all magic (including supernatural abilities, half-casters, incarnum, vestiges, etc), specifically because of how unpredictable it can be in this world.

So, what are my options? Other then Barbarian, Crusader, Fighter, Knight, Marshal, Rogue, Swordsage, and Warblade, I can't think of anything. I'm also having a hard time finding any completely non-magical prestige classes worth taking. What other options am I missing? Other then Tome of Battle Blade Magic, are there any really great (Ex) abilities out there?

In particular, are there any good 5th man buffing/utility abilities you can think of?

And regardless of the source, what are your favorite (Ex) abilities in general?

Thanks.

gomipile
2010-08-18, 01:44 PM
There is also Scout. A Factotum has a little magic, but is still very useful in an anti magic environment. If your DM will let you, you could use the generic warrior class from Unearthed Arcana/SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm.

If you build a Generic Warrior with a good set of skills and creative feat selection, it can be quite a good martial character.

Keld Denar
2010-08-18, 01:50 PM
Fistbear Bearfist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107)?

Rage is an awesome Ex ability that can do a lot of interesting things. Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command is a nasty combo, even worse with Immediate Rage so that you can react to foes with a NO! button.

With all those casters, though, I'd be pretty tempted to be their debuff bitch. Slap together some Hexblade, Pally of Tyranny, and Binder, optimize fear, and run around slapping people with -10 on their saves backed up with 4 save vs deaths by your caster quartet.

Quirp
2010-08-18, 01:52 PM
Scout is definately an option. If you go into Combat Trapsmith (Complete Scoundrel) the others have to worry where they go, not you. The traps arenīt great, but when you are in a no magic zone they can mess up some guys pretty well. All abilities are Ex so no worries about that. Plus I just love that class.:smallbiggrin:

edit: Avenging Executioner (same book) is also a class with only Ex abilities (intimidation/fear, sudden strike)

Wings of Peace
2010-08-18, 02:04 PM
Is there any way you can get him to let you re-flavor Warforged Juggernaut such that you can take it in the Campaign Setting? Calling it a Half-Orc Juggernaut or something and claiming you're just really burly wouldn't be a huge stretch and you'd have a list of immunities from the floor to the ceiling. Or if I offers to let you play a Warforged, even better!

Other than that I would go Blade Magic, it seems to be your most versatile option. Prestiging into Crinti Shadow Marauder or Telflammar Shadowlord and Shadowpouncing every round via the Shadow Hand school could be fun as well but personally I would just stick with maneuvers.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-18, 02:22 PM
I've always been partial to poisons. If you craft them yourself, they're pretty affordable and, with Master of Poisons, they give interesting options to characters who would otherwise be reduced to just attacking again.

FMArthur
2010-08-18, 02:38 PM
I was actually just building a character that took a Mashal dip with huge Charisma using Motivate Charisma to do a dual Iaijutsu Focus/Intimidate build. You need Skill Knowledge (Iaijutsu Focus). It's got a Barbarian dip for Whirling Frenzy and Pounce and a couple Psywar levels and then Fighter levels for the bonus feats for the quickrazors and TWF, then goes into Avenging Executioner for 5 levels. Grabbed a couple of the usual Intimidation feats as well.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 02:38 PM
Eternal Blade, provided the Blade Guide (which is marked Su but is really just a Ghost) is allowed, should be a great PrC. Yeah, Rage stack builds work; Frenzied Berserker is fine without an inkling of magic. You could still make a decent Archer, though I'd probably use a Warblade-shell for some versatility. Swift Hunter still works, Rogue (particularly Wilderness with Ex Hide in Plain Sight) works quite well (especially with some Swordsage), and yeah, Factotum's most relevant abilities still work.

For buffing tho, you won't get much more than Marshal + Crusader/Warblade; most good buffs are Su in this game.

gallagher
2010-08-18, 02:42 PM
i would actually think that a Bardsader would do really well here, considering that there will be some times where magic is wonky, but you will absolutely need the buffs or there will be a TPK.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-18, 02:52 PM
I was actually just building a character that took a Mashal dip with huge Charisma using Motivate Charisma to do a dual Iaijutsu Focus/Intimidate build. You need Skill Knowledge (Iaijutsu Focus). It's got a Barbarian dip for Whirling Frenzy and Pounce and a couple Psywar levels and then Fighter levels for the bonus feats for the quickrazors and TWF, then goes into Avenging Executioner for 5 levels. Grabbed a couple of the usual Intimidation feats as well.

Are you planning on use Gnome quickblade so you can full attack Iaijustsu focus?

Greenish
2010-08-18, 03:06 PM
Are you planning on use Gnome quickblade so you can full attack Iaijustsu focus?I guess that's why he's taking the feat.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-18, 03:14 PM
Have you considered a variant Ranger? The Champion of the Wild alternative class feature (ACF) (Complete Champion, page 50) trades spellcasting for 4 feats, selectable at Ranger levels 4, 8, 11, and 14. This, plus the archery combat style will give you all the ranged attack feats you need. Add 3 levels of Scout and Swift Hunter and you'll have full skirmish. Add the Skilled City-Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) minor ACF to get Tumble instead of Ride as a Ranger class skill. When you can make DC 40 Tumble checks you'll have solved the Scout full attack + skirmish problem.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 03:35 PM
Oh yeah, I totally forgot: The various Supermount builds need no magic or magical abilities. As long as you splice it all on AC, which is Ex, you should end up with a relatively buff AC that hits hard.

Glimbur
2010-08-18, 03:59 PM
i would actually think that a Bardsader would do really well here, considering that there will be some times where magic is wonky, but you will absolutely need the buffs or there will be a TPK.

Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm) music is all Su or Sp, strangely enough.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-18, 04:03 PM
According to the common argument against advancing Chameleon casting with other PrCs, Chameleon spells are Extraordinary.

<.<

Il_Vec
2010-08-18, 08:27 PM
With 4 casters, I'd go with Scout/Ranger, also known as swift hunter, for crazy skirmish. Or warblade.

PId6
2010-08-19, 01:45 AM
Some kind of extraordinary rogue sniper (with Dark template or wilderness rogue) can work pretty well. You can combine that with Boomerang Daze for lockdown + damage.

One way to spend your money is on grafts. Grafts are nonmagical, so you can get a boatload of natural weapon grafts or something and go to town with them. You'll probably want to be Evil in that case just to avoid the negative effects of fiendish grafts (which are quite good).

Draz74
2010-08-19, 03:41 PM
[cheese mode] Well, obviously the most powerful nonmagical character in the game is a cheesed out Hulking Hurler. [/cheese mode]

Fax Celestis
2010-08-19, 05:46 PM
edit: Avenging Executioner (same book) is also a class with only Ex abilities (intimidation/fear, sudden strike)

Necropolitan Human Rogue/Avenging Executioner (possibly with some Zhentarim Fighter for feats) with Gruesome Finish (EoE), Daunting Presence/Death Master/Eviscerator (LM), Improved Critical, and Intimidating Strike/Telling Blow (PHB-II), with crit-focus weaponry. If you sudden strike, people shake in terror (with save). If you crit, people shake in terror (no save). If you do both, lolstacking fear effects, both with and without saves, with 30' radii. You can use Uncanny Trickster to get an extra two points of DC on the Avenging Executioner's fear effects too.

If you have space for feats, take Trophy Collector (PHB-II) for a little bonus on your fear check against specific races. Maybe two levels into Disciple of the Eye for Frightful Attack (which is Ex!). I wouldn't go for all five levels because the 5th version is Su, which could have some issues, and it takes either a monk dip or a feat on UAS, so it may not be worthwhile. I guess you could go Monk 2/Zhentarim Thug Fighter 4/Avenging Executioner 1/Disciple of the Eye 2/Avenging Exectioner +4/something else here.

In a weird-magic world, fear immunity is going to be harder to come by, and no-save fear effects will be even more potent than normal.

Person_Man
2010-08-20, 03:36 PM
Hmmm, lots of great ideas to consider. Thanks everyone.

Does anyone know of any PrC that offer Marshal-like (Ex) buffs? All I could think of was Dragon Lord - but IIRC Dragonic Auras are (Su).

Morph Bark
2010-08-20, 03:45 PM
Hmmm, lots of great ideas to consider. Thanks everyone.

Does anyone know of any PrC that offer Marshal-like (Ex) buffs? All I could think of was Dragon Lord - but IIRC Dragonic Auras are (Su).

All I can offer is "Mythic Exemplar" but only from having heard it thrown around a lot lately, that's all.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-20, 03:51 PM
Hmmm, lots of great ideas to consider. Thanks everyone.

Does anyone know of any PrC that offer Marshal-like (Ex) buffs? All I could think of was Dragon Lord - but IIRC Dragonic Auras are (Su).

Legendary Leader from Heroes of Battle should fit the bill.

Person_Man
2010-08-20, 04:29 PM
Legendary Leader from Heroes of Battle should fit the bill.

Unfortunately Legendary Leader requires that you use the optional "Commander Rules" from Heroes of Battle. And the bonuses he grants are pretty mediocre.

It's a good catch though. Oddly, there are very few "leader" classes and PrC, though you would think it would be a popular archtype. And the ones that they do have mostly involve Bard music, which is really a "minstrel" rather then a leader.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-21, 11:43 AM
It's a good catch though. Oddly, there are very few "leader" classes and PrC, though you would think it would be a popular archtype. And the ones that they do have mostly involve Bard music, which is really a "minstrel" rather then a leader.

I was looking through the Pathfinder APG last night and came across the Battle Herald (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/battle-herald). It's totally EX, but you have to take at least one level of bard for Inspire Courage and one of cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) for Challenge, but Inspiring Command makes Inspire Courage into an EX ability. Bard X/Cavalier 4-X, where X is 1 to 3, can pretty much walk right in. It's not bad as far as leader PrCs go.

true_shinken
2010-08-21, 11:46 AM
There is a good leader PrC for orcs in Races of Faerun, IIRC.

Cieyrin
2010-08-22, 03:17 PM
There is a good leader PrC for orcs in Races of Faerun, IIRC.

Orc Warlord? Maybe if you want to seriously push Leadership and turn your game into Birthright, sure. It's more an NPC PRC, really, and even then, the DM needs no PRC to create an orcish horde.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-22, 04:12 PM
My favorite (Ex) class ability is the Hide in Plain Sight of the Eye of Lolth PrC (Drow of the Underdark, page 80). It works the same as the Assassin/Shadowdancer Supernatural HiPS; it's just not dependent on magic.

The downside: This prestige class has a lot of requirements (race, skill ranks, feat, domain, and 2 class abilities) and then you still don't get Hide in Plain Sight until 6 levels into the class. :smallfurious:

Endarire
2010-08-22, 08:16 PM
Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon). I advise an Eternal Daughter-like build.