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View Full Version : Who will "win" in warhammer 40k?



classy one
2010-08-18, 03:41 PM
Hi everyone, long time lurker first time poster. Nice to meet you all.

I was wondering what everyone's opinion was on which race had the best chances of "winning" in WH40K. By winning I mean total galatic dominance, whether by occupation, consumption, or out right destruction. To be THE super power in the milky way, able to do thing at will without any oversight or care for the other races. This is fluff based, and not mechanically based. I'm not a pro with all the races so if the fluff is wrong or needs more clarification then please let me know.

Imperium of Man:
In theory, humans are the galactic superpower, but they are far from dominant. They are attacked by all, progress is non-existant, the savior is trapped by his task of maintaining the FTL beacon, least inter-system travel come to a halt. Nothing seems to be going right for humanity.

Chances of success: low, the human historians are very pessimistic, calling the current age "the age of ending". Human society is completly stagnant, war is all that exists. The fact that technology is not progressing is very crippling.

How they can win: the Imperium of Man, as a whole, has survived everything so far. They have the most adaptable millitary that can deal with any situation, and the population to support all the branches of its considerable war machine. Consider the Imperium's complete arsenal and it is easy to see how they have withstood attack after attack: the numberous IG, the skilled and superhuman Space Marines, the holy Grey Knights, the secretive Inquisition, the devastating Navy.
If the Imperium would allow the Star Child/Emperor to be reborn then Humanity's chances would also raise greatly. However, it is doubtful that mankind would survive without the Astronomican's light, the destruction of the Emperor's webway project made sure of that.
There is also the chance that the missing loyal Primarchs will return, giving humanity a big boost.

The Eldar
Once before the Fall, the Eldar had the galaxy in its palms. Now....... well not so much. The exiles and craftworlders continue to hide and alienate other races, while the dark Eldar need constant prey to keep their souls.

Chances of success: low to none. The Eldar are few, ununified, and have little to no allies in a vast galaxy of things that like the taste of their souls. In many ways they did this themselves, creating a Chaos god, sacrificing "lesser" races so a handful of their own can survive, or activily killing others so their souls are not siphoned away. The Eldar drove themselves into a cornor with their arrogance and now are paying the price.

How they can win:They are still the most technologicaly advanced race. But Y'nnead seems to be their best shot. The nasent god of death growing in the infinity circuit could be the ace they need to turn the tables on She who Thrists.

Orks
As the most successful race, it is wonder why they haven't won yet.

Chances of success:Good. Tough and strong combined with high reproduction rates AND fast maturation, makes Orks a top contender. This combined with easy logistics and stable economy allow the Boyz to make war all day long. One good Waaaagh! is very hard to withstand.

What is stopping them: They are not too bright..... Their high population is controlled by the fact that they often turn against eachother. They also enjoy the fight rather than victory, and will sabatoge themselves just to prolong the fight. A prime example is when Ghazghkull released Yarrick just to have a worthy opponent. Another factor is that Space Hulks are completly random. So even if a Ork hears of a fun Waaaagh! going on they might not have a reliable way of getting there.



More to come......

The Glyphstone
2010-08-18, 03:41 PM
There's a 40K discussion thread already in Gaming (other). This would belong there.

Flickerdart
2010-08-18, 03:43 PM
You can't win in WH40K, you can only lose the least.

hamishspence
2010-08-18, 03:44 PM
There's a 40K discussion thread already in Gaming (other). This would belong there.

Yes- possibly in the 40K fluff thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140569&page=36

rather than the tabletop gaming thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779&page=41

Coidzor
2010-08-18, 03:47 PM
Ahh, adventures in missing the point.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 04:03 PM
For the record, the sides with the best chances of winning are the:

Chaos: Because they feed off of universal emotions.

Tyranids: Due to sheer numbers and survivability, but without as many of the Ork's weaknesses.

Necrons: Because every soldier is, essentially, invincible. Also, they have even more advanced technology than the Eldar.

(Sort-Of) The Imperium. If the Emperor was to finally die, the veneration of him by the Bajillions of Citizens of the Imperium of Man would likely turn his spirit into a Warp Entity with more or less Infinite power. This would make him Millions of times stronger than the ALL OF THE CHAOS GODS COMBINED. This would allow him to completely crush Chaos in one fell swoop, reuniting these legions with the Imperium and giving all of the advantages Chaos had to the entire Imperium. This includes Safe Warp Travel, Insanely Powerful Psykers, and all the support the chaos gods were able to offer to their servants times a million. This would make them powerful enough to contend with any of the threats plaguing them. This is very conditional and the trigger event is unlikely to occur, however.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-18, 04:14 PM
Nids and Necrons are the only race with a possibility of winning. And by necrons, I mean solely the C'tan, since the rest are slaves anyway.

Let's break it down.

Chaos: Very powerful. But...fed by emotions of sentient beings. So, if their enemy gets bigger, they get bigger. Good setup for eternal conflict, but anything with emotion can never actually beat them, nor can they all be beaten by chaos.

Orks: Has emotions. See above.

Eldar: Ditto. Also, dying off, which is an obvious fail with regards to winning.

Imperium: Ditto. Also in decline, and utterly dependant on the emperor. Who is basically dead.

Tau: Slight chance. They have emotion, but less of it. Could actually get an edge on chaos. Of course, they have to kill everything else living in the galaxy first, and in size, they're a fleabite of a race.

Dark Eldar: Like chaos, but not actually created by emotion, so not part of that equation. instead, parasites. parasites that will themselves be feasted on if they stop killing. So, even if they win, they lose. Horribly screwed.

Nids: No emotion, just eating machines. Good at it. From another galaxy, so are the only known transgalactic force. That's a damned good edge.

Necrons: No emotion, just robots enslaved by old gods. Very few gods, now. Both robots and gods are nigh impossible to kill permanently. Here's the kicker. Necrons and nids just ignore each other. Massive advantage there.

So...joint necron/nid win is the safe bet.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 04:26 PM
Nids and Necrons are the only race with a possibility of winning. And by necrons, I mean solely the C'tan, since the rest are slaves anyway.

Let's break it down.

Chaos: Very powerful. But...fed by emotions of sentient beings. So, if their enemy gets bigger, they get bigger. Good setup for eternal conflict, but anything with emotion can never actually beat them, nor can they all be beaten by chaos.

Orks: Has emotions. See above.

Eldar: Ditto. Also, dying off, which is an obvious fail with regards to winning.

Imperium: Ditto. Also in decline, and utterly dependant on the emperor. Who is basically dead.

Tau: Slight chance. They have emotion, but less of it. Could actually get an edge on chaos. Of course, they have to kill everything else living in the galaxy first, and in size, they're a fleabite of a race.

Dark Eldar: Like chaos, but not actually created by emotion, so not part of that equation. instead, parasites. parasites that will themselves be feasted on if they stop killing. So, even if they win, they lose. Horribly screwed.

Nids: No emotion, just eating machines. Good at it. From another galaxy, so are the only known transgalactic force. That's a damned good edge.

Necrons: No emotion, just robots enslaved by old gods. Very few gods, now. Both robots and gods are nigh impossible to kill permanently. Here's the kicker. Necrons and nids just ignore each other. Massive advantage there.

So...joint necron/nid win is the safe bet.

You're right about Chaos. All I have to say about this is that as stated above, the Emperor's Complete Death would probably be the greatest boon possible to the Imperium, and might even give them a fighting chance against the Necrons and Tyranids.

classy one
2010-08-18, 04:29 PM
Ah I didn't know this belonged in another section. Sorry for the n00b mistake. I'm guessing I can't move it myself so I'll post here until that has happened.

I don't know what all this talk about emotion is about..... Tau have emotions and yet have almost no impression in the Warp. Even though Necrons have no emotions they and the C'tan are very vunervable to warp based attacks. In fact they are trying to seal off real time-space from the Warp with pylons.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 04:41 PM
The talk about emotion is a little too specific for the intended meaning, But the Chaos Gods feed off their portfolio. This means that if anyone, anywhere in the galaxy, does or feels something that meets their portfolio, the Chaos God in question grows in strength. Khorne is the most powerful of them at the moment due to the fact that war exists more than pleasure, disease, or even Change.

HamHam
2010-08-18, 04:46 PM
Besides just the meta-logic of the Status Quo, I think that probably no one will ever "win" because the whole galaxy is practically an ecosystem.

You can beat an Ork invasion, but another one will always spring up.
The Nids can wipe out a planet, but eventually someone will repopulate it.

And so forth and so on.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 04:54 PM
The Imperium can destroy a planet. No repopulating that thing. Necrons and Tyranids will survive the sudden explosion though.

BobVosh
2010-08-18, 05:00 PM
I absolutely agree with the necron/tyranid joint victory. After this, the nid may go for the necron. However I doubt it. They will probably move on the the next galaxy.

classy one
2010-08-18, 05:56 PM
I know no one will really win, that's why it's in quotes. It's pure mental masterbation, more "what if" rather than "this and that". If you don't see the fun of a hypothetical debate than don't participate, this thread is for people who like it.

Since Chaos has been brought up.....

Chaos:
Since the War in Heaven tainted the Warp, it has been gaining in influence and strength since. It already has a whole mirror galaxy under its thumb and working hard to increase its sphere of power. And succeeding.

Chances of success: High. Any sentient being is at risk of falling to Chaos, and many have. The Horus Herasey was the greatest example, and its consequences were titanic. Chaos marines and demons are bad enough, but Chaos' real strength lies in subversion, planting doubt, making enemies into allies. Choas gods are probaly the only beings in the galaxy really have a good time.

What is stopping them: The paradox about the forces of Chaos is that they feed off the emotions of their prey. If they did kill everything and/or turn all sentient beings into demons they would disappear. My personal theory is that Chaos is trying to kill everything and reset itself to its original state when the Old Ones were around. Once that happens, all sentient life will be gone and the Warp will return to its true state.

Tyranids
The superorganism that has already eaten unknown number of other galaxies. The gestalt Hive mind creates mini warp gods that blocks all psychic travel and communication. They are just plain terrible.

Chances of success:Very high, they have history on their side, having eaten whole galaxies dry, and the Milky Way is just going to be another notch under their belt. Now they have genes from Primarchs and Orks? Grey Knights (and hence the Emperor himself)? How long will it take for them to make full use of such potent genetics? What if they were combined? Not even Chaos messes with them, their psychic impression is so massive it dwarves whole planets.

What is stopping them: The being of the milky way have been putting up a good fight. There is also the fact that they are a bit random, almost like space fishing when it comes to finding a prey planet. They also seem to move in a straight line (a few light years wide) rather than spread, so it is possible they go from one end of the galaxy to the other without touching the systems further out. One can only hope.....

Tau:
The new kids on the block, these guys are on the rise and are very confident in their chances. In some ways they could be right.

Chances of success: Fair. A very advanced xenos race and continually getting better. If they continue to progress they could gain a signifigant advantage against others. Their philosophy of the Greater Good is understandably appealing in such a dark universe, even if it is a bit misleading. Unlike the Eldar, they try their best to make friends (at gunpoint) and often gain a planet without ever firing a shot. The Kroot are an interesting race that also intergrates genetic material of others to make themselves stronger just like the 'Nids.

What is stopping them: One thing that is stopping them is the lack or really really long term FTL travel. This greatly limits their mobility, so even if they have bigger and better weapons, it is useless if they can't get to the battle in time. They also a general lack of understanding of Warp, which might be a disadvantage when it comes to dealing with psykers and Chaos.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 06:04 PM
It may be worth noting that the Tau are a Tiny empire, though they are Tight-Knit, so a bureaucracy failure won't destroy a colony the same way it happens to the Imperium.

classy one
2010-08-18, 06:20 PM
(Sort-Of) The Imperium. If the Emperor was to finally die, the veneration of him by the Bajillions of Citizens of the Imperium of Man would likely turn his spirit into a Warp Entity with more or less Infinite power. This would make him Millions of times stronger than the ALL OF THE CHAOS GODS COMBINED. This would allow him to completely crush Chaos in one fell swoop, reuniting these legions with the Imperium and giving all of the advantages Chaos had to the entire Imperium. This includes Safe Warp Travel, Insanely Powerful Psykers, and all the support the chaos gods were able to offer to their servants times a million. This would make them powerful enough to contend with any of the threats plaguing them. This is very conditional and the trigger event is unlikely to occur, however.

Not too sure about this. Here's what wiki has to say about the death of the Emperor:


Emperor's death could herald a new savior for humanity. That time would lie far in the future, when mankind's collective desire for a new savior would strengthen the core of the Emperor's soul in the Warp and rekindle it to new life. The soul of the Emperor adrift in the Warp is the being referred to by the lluminati as the Star Child. The humans that were left in charge of the Imperium after the Horus Heresy had no real understanding of what had happened to the Emperor. Though the Emperor's body continued to live within the Golden Throne and his mind continued to be a beacon for humanity, his soul is a new, benevolent god of the Warp, waiting to be born.
So while the Emperor would become a true god if he was allowed to die, it would be years before it would happen. That would be years without the Astranomican and hence no FTL travel. It is doubtful that their would be any humans to worship this new god by the time it really happens. Also no where does it say how powerful this new god would be. Even with all of humanity's worship the Chaos gods encompass all sentient beings (except for energy beings).

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 06:33 PM
So while the Emperor would become a true god if he was allowed to die, it would be years before it would happen. That would be years without the Astranomican and hence no FTL travel. It is doubtful that their would be any humans to worship this new god by the time it really happens. Also no where does it say how powerful this new god would be. Even with all of humanity's worship the Chaos gods encompass all sentient beings (except for energy beings).

Ah, but the number of beings who fervently worship the Chaos Gods, Giving them a Very large portion of their power, is tiny compared to the number who worship the Emperor. In addition, Read through that passage again. The soul is currently separate from the body and Mind. The soul is forming into this God on its own, but the Emperor's body must die to allow his mind to meet his soul, "Birthing" the God. Also, isn't the Astronomican powered by the souls of 10,000 Psykers each Day?

HamHam
2010-08-18, 07:56 PM
The Imperium can destroy a planet. No repopulating that thing. Necrons and Tyranids will survive the sudden explosion though.

Orks will always repopulate. :P

classy one
2010-08-18, 08:08 PM
Ah, but the number of beings who fervently worship the Chaos Gods, Giving them a Very large portion of their power, is tiny compared to the number who worship the Emperor. In addition, Read through that passage again. The soul is currently separate from the body and Mind. The soul is forming into this God on its own, but the Emperor's body must die to allow his mind to meet his soul, "Birthing" the God. Also, isn't the Astronomican powered by the souls of 10,000 Psykers each Day?

The star child is only the core of the Emperor's soul, it is far from complete, and many years will be needed to before it reaches its full divinity. The devotion of humanity serves to preserve the star child but it is still just a child. Will humanity survive while this new human god matures is another issue, will it even mature when forge and hive worlds starve off?

The Astronomican is powered by 10,000 psykers who have their life force drained in a matter of months (not hours). The Emperor is the one who directs it and channels the "light". The metaphor is that the psykers are the choir and the Emperor is the conductor.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-18, 08:15 PM
I'm voting for whatever the Tyranid fleets are running from.:smallbiggrin:

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 08:18 PM
The star child is only the core of the Emperor's soul, it is far from complete, and many years will be needed to before it reaches its full divinity. The devotion of humanity serves to preserve the star child but it is still just a child. Will humanity survive while this new human god matures is another issue, will it even mature when forge and hive worlds starve off?

The Astronomican is powered by 10,000 psykers who have their life force drained in a matter of months (not hours). The Emperor is the one who directs it and channels the "light". The metaphor is that the psykers are the choir and the Emperor is the conductor.

You are correct, but look at the size of the Imperium on a Galactic Map. Look how much ground it has lost in the entire War. The Imperium could reasonably survive another several millenia, even without the aforementioned Super-Emperor/God.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-18, 08:21 PM
I"m sorry to tell you but if the Empoeror fully dies the Imperium will be at it's worst ever for the next 1000 years until his rebirth.

This is due to the fact that the only reason Imperial Psykers can communicate with each other over long distances is due to the Emperor being a conduit for it. This is the same for the Navigators of all ships (who are also psykers) due to the fact that the Emperor acts as a becon\lighthouse for all all travel and makes it safer for it.

Ravens_cry
2010-08-18, 08:21 PM
I'm voting for whatever the Tyranid fleets are running from.:smallbiggrin:
The Squats?:smallamused:

Bosh
2010-08-18, 08:25 PM
Um, what are you guys talking about? The orcs have already won. The universe is exactly how the orcs want it to be. If that isn't winning, then what is?

classy one
2010-08-18, 08:30 PM
Um, what are you guys talking about? The orcs have already won. The universe is exactly how the orcs want it to be. If that isn't winning, then what is?

That is...... a very valid point.......

The Imperium has a shot but it is long one. The Emperor's reincaration is key but how would mankind survive without FTL travel? If technology wasn't stagnant they could use the teleporting tech that the Necrons use and give the Star Child time. But after 10,000 years this has not happened and the chances of it happening are getting slim as the constant war and dogma prevent any advancement.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-18, 08:31 PM
The Squats?:smallamused:

I'm sorry but they were already put on the Tyranid dinner table :smallwink:

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-18, 08:31 PM
I'd say, if the Tau can overcome their mobility limitations by advancing their technology and understanding the technology of other races, they would have a great chance. It all depends on how well it is POSSIBLE to understand things like the warp or the webways for a nonpsychic race. Alternately, one of their allies could become BETTER at psychic stuff, especially if they ever start to do a serious serious study into genetics, with a mind to improving the psychic capabilities of Kroot / Demiurg / Nicassar, or understanding the psychic capabilities of some of their Gue'vesa, that could skyrocket possible solutions to their mobility issues. Basically, to me, the Tau, being the only race that is *advancing and growing*, actually does have a good chance... assuming they leverage their allies and learn from them...

mobdrazhar
2010-08-18, 08:34 PM
I'd say, if the Tau can overcome their mobility limitations by advancing their technology and understanding the technology of other races, they would have a great chance. It all depends on how well it is POSSIBLE to understand things like the warp or the webways for a nonpsychic race. Alternately, one of their allies could become BETTER at psychic stuff, especially if they ever start to do a serious serious study into genetics, with a mind to improving the psychic capabilities of Kroot / Demiurg / Nicassar, or understanding the psychic capabilities of some of their Gue'vesa, that could skyrocket possible solutions to their mobility issues. Basically, to me, the Tau, being the only race that is *advancing and growing*, actually does have a good chance... assuming they leverage their allies and learn from them...

They can't travel the webways\warp as they have no warp signature... no Tau does

holywhippet
2010-08-18, 08:34 PM
Some things to remember:

- The C'tan don't much like the warp (being vulnerable to it) and if they ever finish their project to seal it off, pretty much every other race is screwed.

- The C'tan might not like the taste of the Tyranids, but if the 'Nids strip the galaxy of everything organic it might mean the C'tan will never be able to feed again. They went to sleep the first time knowing that life would eventually repopulate, but that requires organic material which the Tyranids eat. I'd assume they'd have some kind of objection to this.

- The Tau might only have small numbers, but they have really powerful technology. It's believed that their race was modified by the last surviving ancients which is an advantage all on it's own.

- The Chaos gods aren't likely to be happy about losing most of their worshippers - thus the Necrons and Tyranids would be prime enemies if they became too active.

Ravens_cry
2010-08-18, 08:36 PM
I'm sorry but they were already put on the Tyranid dinner table :smallwink:
That's what they want you to think. In fact, the Squats invented Time Travel and went back before the whole mess started. They didn't take into account galactic movement, and ended up several galaxies away in Space.
They are coming.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-18, 08:42 PM
That's what they want you to think. In fact, the Squats invented Time Travel and went back before the whole mess started. They didn't take into account galactic movement, and ended up several galaxies away in Space.
They are coming.

now you've given my inspiration and fluff for a squat force! :smallbiggrin:

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-18, 08:43 PM
They can't travel the webways\warp as they have no warp signature... no Tau does

Right, hence the LEVERAGING their allies part... They can 'win' as long as their goals are accomplished and everyone else isn't a threat.. It doesnt matter if it is Humans, Kroot, Nicassar, and Demiurg fighting for the Tau Empire and travelling the Warp or Webways, as long as they are doing so and fighting for the Tau Empire, Tau has a serious chance of overcoming that difficulty!

Smiling Knight
2010-08-18, 08:43 PM
I'm voting for whatever the Tyranid fleets are running from.:smallbiggrin:

Kirby? :smalltongue:

mobdrazhar
2010-08-18, 08:49 PM
Right, hence the LEVERAGING their allies part... They can 'win' as long as their goals are accomplished and everyone else isn't a threat.. It doesnt matter if it is Humans, Kroot, Nicassar, and Demiurg fighting for the Tau Empire and travelling the Warp or Webways, as long as they are doing so and fighting for the Tau Empire, Tau has a serious chance of overcoming that difficulty!

good point

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 09:03 PM
Actually, If the Imperium was to ally with the Tau...

Assuming that isn't impossible...

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-18, 09:20 PM
Actually, If the Imperium was to ally with the Tau...

Assuming that isn't impossible...

No, that isn't possible. But Tau can snatch up worlds from the Imperium, without slaughtering the populations, with the expertise available to some of the worlds... as soon as they get to any world where there is a decent amount of experts who are willing to work for the Tau, they have the option for a path to 'winning'.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-18, 09:38 PM
No, that isn't possible. But Tau can snatch up worlds from the Imperium, without slaughtering the populations, with the expertise available to some of the worlds... as soon as they get to any world where there is a decent amount of experts who are willing to work for the Tau, they have the option for a path to 'winning'.

It is possible. The Ultramarines and Tau have fought side by side before against Tyanids

Urpriest
2010-08-18, 09:49 PM
I'll put in another vote for Tau. Tau not only are advancing technologically, they're doing so even faster than real life human beings. Since technological advancement is exponential, all they need is to survive long enough to hit the technological singularity, which for them should come in a matter of decades. They won't need the Warp when they can make their own.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 10:06 PM
If the Tau advanced that Far and joined with the Imperium, and if the Emperor then Died and the Imperium made use of the Tau's new technology, Their combined Forces could likely crush the entire rest of the Galaxy. A side benefit of this would be that the number of Imperial Soldiers falling to Chaos would drop exponentially, and that the combined Science Departments of the two Powers might finally be able to Decrypt the technology of the Necron Tomb Worlds and Become Literally unstoppable. The only thing that would stand a fighting chance at that point is the Tyranids, since Necrons are likely vulnerable to their own Technology.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-18, 10:10 PM
It is possible. The Ultramarines and Tau have fought side by side before against Tyanids

And Space Marines have fought beside the Eldar too, on multiple occasions. But a LARGE SCALE alliance would really, really, not work... the Empire is too Xenophobic.

Also there is no singularity in this setting. The highest possible tech level with NO weird 'spirit or soul' stuff is basically a mix of what is possible with some types of Necron specialized technology, some Eldar specialized technology, some Tau specialized technology (and a few extrapolations for minor advancements from that stuff) and some Lost Human technology, and a few minor advancements in human technology since then. If you take the 'non psychic or warp' things in all of those categories, you basically have the maximum possible technological level for the entire setting.

Urpriest
2010-08-18, 10:34 PM
Also there is no singularity in this setting. The highest possible tech level with NO weird 'spirit or soul' stuff is basically a mix of what is possible with some types of Necron specialized technology, some Eldar specialized technology, some Tau specialized technology (and a few extrapolations for minor advancements from that stuff) and some Lost Human technology, and a few minor advancements in human technology since then. If you take the 'non psychic or warp' things in all of those categories, you basically have the maximum possible technological level for the entire setting.

I disagree. The whole point of the Tau is that they break the rest of the setting's conventions for technological limits. Other races have technology that functions like a typical space-opera: stagnant and ancient, with magical warpness mixed in for flavor. The Tau, however, are an advancement-themed race, and as such get around these genre conventions.

That said, the Imperium could not harness Tau technological prowess through any sort of alliance, because even if they were to accept alien help they would still be bound by Warhammer's default genre conventions. Only if the Tau manage to conquer and brainwash the Imperium will humans be able to develop non-setting-appropriate technology.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-08-18, 11:07 PM
My money is on the 'Nids, with the Necrons a somewhat more distant second place.

I keep getting the distinct feeling that all the hive fleets encountered so far are only the spearhead. Something really, really big is coming to the Milky Way. The harbinger of the Hive is already collecting genetic material, sending it back to whatever is lurking just beyond the galactic rim... Unless the C'tan pull a lot more necrons out of the dust before the real Hive Fleet arrives, I don't even see the star gods standing a chance against the Tyranid onslaught. The true Red Harvest is on its way, and the 'Nids are hungry...

A few random questions:

1. How do you pronounce "C'tan?" I say "si-tan."

2. Why can't the C'tan just go back to sucking on stars once all organic life is gone? If I recall, they only like consuming living souls because they taste better than solar energy (remember that they were basically 'star vampires' before the progenitor-necrons gave them corporeal form).

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-18, 11:13 PM
It is worth noting that the so far Awoken Necrons are not their armies. They are harvesters. On a threat comparison, the Necrons awoken so far are the equivalent of farmers to the actual Soldiers, which are still in the Tombs. The C'tan themselves are likely not pushovers in combat either.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-18, 11:14 PM
I've always read and pronounced it as "Kuh-tahn" personally.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-18, 11:19 PM
I disagree. The whole point of the Tau is that they break the rest of the setting's conventions for technological limits. Other races have technology that functions like a typical space-opera: stagnant and ancient, with magical warpness mixed in for flavor. The Tau, however, are an advancement-themed race, and as such get around these genre conventions.

That said, the Imperium could not harness Tau technological prowess through any sort of alliance, because even if they were to accept alien help they would still be bound by Warhammer's default genre conventions. Only if the Tau manage to conquer and brainwash the Imperium will humans be able to develop non-setting-appropriate technology.

Hmmm, good point -- but I was assuming that their technology would basically "progress" to the point where they are capable of understanding the maximum technological level of anything tech-based in the setting (including all the 'lost' stuff), as well as some advances of their unique stuff, and then level off at a level "higher than anyone else's because they have all the best of anyone, and can combine all these techniques that other folk couldn't combine, and can refine things and make them work more efficiently, using the same basic premise", when the non advancing space opera thing FINALLY hits them, a long, long time from now, when they have already overcome everyone else in the setting by making use of everything useful?

mobdrazhar
2010-08-18, 11:35 PM
and then of course there is the sleeping C'Tan on Mars that will divide the AdMech when he awakes

Darius Rae
2010-08-18, 11:52 PM
Another vote for Tau. They just have to wait for the Nids to eat everyone else, and then kill off the Necrons with their awesome stealth technology. The Tau's biggest advantage is that everybody is ignoring them due to bigger problems (and their super awesome technology)

classy one
2010-08-18, 11:53 PM
I think the Tau's lack of Warp knowledge is a big deal considering that the Warp is kind of a big deal. The Necron's were very advanced but got their butts handed to them by the Old Ones. The Necrontyr at that time had more advanced tech too. Even now the Necron fear the Warp/Chaos.

The Imperium's stagnant technological progress is really a shame since its is clear that during the dark age of technology mankind was capable of space travel without the use of the Astronomican. Mankind likily hit their techno-singularity during the Dark Age. This was all messed up with the Eldar's Fall. It's a shame really, since Mankind really seemed to be on the cusp of becoming greatest all the time, only to have something mess it all up. The men of Iron, the Hourus Hersey, the Age of Strife..... Humanity just keeps screwing up (well the Dark Age was really the Eldar's fault). I need to add the possibility of the Imperium finding the more powerful STCs on my list.....

Another thing about tech in general is that most races develop tech that suits them. Humans will never make full use of wraithbone since they are not all the psionic, nor will a Tau use a venom cannon. There are exceptions (like Yarrick's powerclaw) but I think each race has their own tech progressions.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-19, 12:07 AM
There are exceptions (like Yarrick's powerclaw) but I think each race has their own tech progressions.

yeah but then again when it comes to power claws... Orks saw the devistating combat power of a powerfist and tried to duplicate it (with success) and thus the power claw was born

Tengu_temp
2010-08-19, 05:34 AM
As long as people keep buying minis, the only real winner in the conflict is Games Workshop.

Psyx
2010-08-19, 06:36 AM
The Imperium of man in its current form isn't about to 'win'. It's had long enough, and not done so. Now if the Emperor was to pop his clogs, become an enormously powerful warp entity, or be reborn anew, it might break humanity for a few millennia, but might ultimately be something that would tip the scales.

Chaos is -as discussed- ultimately a parisite.

The Tau are too small, and don't know enough about the warp to win. They are also noobs at large-scale fleet actions; and as many planets if not a whole lot more get taken at this scale than at 'ground scale'.

The eldar are a dying breed. The Dark eldar even less of a 'threat'.

The Tyranids have wasted galaxies before, act as one mind, are self-sustaining, and don't need to hold territory as they simply raise it in passing. They are adaptive and powerful. Kind of the Mongel Horde. My money is kind of on them in many ways.

The Orks are too disorganised to ever win. Or indeed co-ordinate anything larger than a short-term 'Waaargh'.

The Necrons / C'tan haven't 'bloomed' yet and are still a small-scale threat. They simply aren't big enough at present. And they didn't win last time, either. Being completely alien to the warp probably isn't going to do them any long-term favours.

DragonBaneDM
2010-08-19, 09:16 AM
I like the comparison between the Tau and the Necrons. They're both anti-warp, both have advanced technology, and it's especially interesting that they're two of the "stand back and shoot" races when it comes to actual gameplay.

In a later campaign, I could see a deep rivalry forming between the oldest race and the youngest race in this game!

Tyrmatt
2010-08-19, 09:33 AM
While Necron's and Tyranids are definitely most likely to win outright, the Orks are nigh impossible to stop from coming back as well. As long as there are planets in the sky that are even reasonably close to something inhabitable, Ork spores will travel unharmed through space, settle, breed and rise up into a new Waaagh!! They won't win persay but on the other hand, are almost impossible to conclusively wipe out.

That and I love those little green nutters. They are free of malice and prejudice. They just wanna fight.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-19, 10:04 AM
Indeed. The Orks are unlikely to ever win, in the sense of controlling the entire galaxy, but it's equally unlikely that they'll ever lose.

Yukitsu
2010-08-19, 10:37 AM
Most prophesies in the setting make a reference to a complete end to everything in the setting, insofar as the known races are concerned.

So much as it is in the spirit of warhammer, no one wins.

classy one
2010-08-19, 11:14 AM
It is generally accepted knowledge that if the Orkz united and started a giant Waaaaagh! They would curb stomp everything. In theory, one super Warboss could do this as Orkz get more powerful with each victory and Waaaagh!s tend to increase expontionally.
The Orkz are the most successful race right now, inhabiting more planets than any other race and more numberous. The chance that one Warboss capable to make a mega Waaagh! are very high.

That being said, Tyranids likily have all the genes that make Orkz strong, might have gotten a few geneseeds as well. This is what makes the Nids so scarey IMO. Imagine Zoonatropes with the psykic might of a Grey Knight Libraian. Or a cariflex that gets bigger with each kill. What if mob rule could override instictive behavior? With all the strong genes floating around this galaxy, the Nids will soon have them all.

comicshorse
2010-08-19, 11:18 AM
I remember reading that the 'nids had tried this on the Orcs and it simply hadn't worked. They had stolen Orc DNA and used it to create Squigs and the like but the inherent 'orkiness' of the Squigs was too strong and when deployed against the orcs they instantly switched sides.
( if this has since been written out of continuity I apologize)

Yukitsu
2010-08-19, 11:30 AM
I remember reading that the 'nids had tried this on the Orcs and it simply hadn't worked. They had stolen Orc DNA and used it to create Squigs and the like but the inherent 'orkiness' of the Squigs was too strong and when deployed against the orcs they instantly switched sides.
( if this has since been written out of continuity I apologize)

No, that's sort of it.

More specifically, the nids on a space hulk had a bunch of squigs lying around, and when hulk got invaded, the orcs found a bunch of the little things. The squigs didn't exactly go along quietly being squigs, or instantly switch sides, but they get along fairly well with the orcs, who took them home because "dey seem orky." As far as one can tell, they're almost mindless beasts that are disconnected from the main hivemind, and will eat an orc or grot if it gets the chance, but they can be trained by them.

World Eater
2010-08-19, 11:30 AM
Which ever faction I'm playing, I have rigged dice.

On that note, me. I win 40k.

HamHam
2010-08-19, 11:36 AM
Indeed. The Orks are unlikely to ever win, in the sense of controlling the entire galaxy, but it's equally unlikely that they'll ever lose.

Orks already won. We wins da fight, we wins. We dies, we dies fightin so we wins.

DaedalusMkV
2010-08-19, 11:45 AM
A note on the Tau:
If the Tau weren't the tiny, insignificant flyspeck that they are on the galactic scale I'd rate their chances a hell of a lot higher. Their philosophy of (relative) tolerance and working together gives them a huge advantage over the other races, as does their sane approach to science, technology, government and all the rest. Having virtually no souls is actually a massive advantage; Daemonic incursions are incredibly rare on Tau world, the corrupting power of Chaos is virtually useless against them, they are somewhat resistant to sorcery as a matter of course and-most important of all- Warp travel is far less risky for them, since their ships stand out far less in the Warp.

The only problem for the Tau is that any of the other races could wipe them out entirely if they really wanted to. The Imperium could do it, but won't because Tau space is really, really well fortified by this point and they're fighting too many desperate wars already. The Eldar could do it, but they don't feel like it and are implied to actually be kind of fond of the Tau. The Orks, Tyranids and Necrons are pretty obvious. Okay, so Chaos isn't in a position to eliminate the Tau, but you get what I'm saying.

Now, all that said, the longer the current situation stagnates for the other factions, the better off the Tau are. Unlike every other faction except the 'Nids and Orks, the Tau aren't regressing and aren't losing ground. As their tech improves and their empire grows, they have the potential to become a real galactic power. They just have to not get squished like a bug, first.


Who do I think will win, you say? Combined Ork/Tyranid/Necron victory. The other factions eliminated, the galaxy descends into an even more rediculous war, with every planet serving as a battleground between the survivers. None of them truly capable of eliminating the others, we get a stalemate that will last for millions of years with no other forms of life capable of emerging.

Psyx
2010-08-19, 11:50 AM
A critical thing: The Tyranids only have to take a world once. They never have to defend it again.

Tengu_temp
2010-08-19, 12:11 PM
I like the comparison between the Tau and the Necrons. They're both anti-warp, both have advanced technology, and it's especially interesting that they're two of the "stand back and shoot" races when it comes to actual gameplay.

In a later campaign, I could see a deep rivalry forming between the oldest race and the youngest race in this game!

Well, both of these races were released at the same time, so that might have something to do with it.

Tehnar
2010-08-19, 12:22 PM
Aren't Orks resistant to Chaos?; rather they create their own impressions in the warp (Gork and Mork). I think I read that if a Ork falls under chaos, other Orks will recognize him as not being "orky" enough and killhim quickly. So I don't think Chaos would benefit a whole lot from Ork dominated universe.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-19, 12:39 PM
Yes, but orks can worship chaos gods which they mistake for being one of their two mighty gods themselves. Nurgle for being green, and Khorne for being kinda violent.

That is really seldom, however, and orks lack priests who really go around telling them to worship that "aspect" of Gork (or was it Mork?) who sits on a brass throne surrounded by skulls. In fact, anybody who's not big and green and doesn't conform to the Waaagh! does get clobbered to death.

Ork worship for their gods Gork and Mork, which are canonically the strongest warp deities of the milky way far above the chaos gods, is to fight and wage war for the sake of it. Gork (or was it Mork?) is the god of cunning violence, and the other is the god of violent cunning.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-19, 12:49 PM
I wonder what happens if the main Tyrannid fleet drifts through an area of space absolutely thick with Orc-Spores?

I think it seems pretty obvious that the Tau are massively over-rated a lot of the time. Perhaps due to their new-kid fan-favourite status? They feel slightly wrong to me, and from what little I know about the related fluff, I can't help but think they seem like a trap of some kind.

Anyway, the only way the Emperor would be allowed to fully die is in some kind of massive calamity / culture shift. Which is to say, that either by that time it's irrelevant because the entire empire has been squashed, or there has been such a fundamental change in the way it all works that all bets are off for the time following till the Star Child's done.

In that situation, I can't help but feel that a Human - Eldar - Tau alliance against the more savage and/or innimitable to life races seems a lot more likely than it would with the Emperor still kicking around keeping things together.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-19, 12:54 PM
I wonder what happens if the main Tyrannid fleet drifts through an area of space absolutely thick with Orc-Spores?

I think it seems pretty obvious that the Tau are massively over-rated a lot of the time. Perhaps due to their new-kid fan-favourite status? They feel slightly wrong to me, and from what little I know about the related fluff, I can't help but think they seem like a trap of some kind.

Anyway, the only way the Emperor would be allowed to fully die is in some kind of massive calamity / culture shift. Which is to say, that either by that time it's irrelevant because the entire empire has been squashed, or there has been such a fundamental change in the way it all works that all bets are off for the time following till the Star Child's done.

In that situation, I can't help but feel that a Human - Eldar - Tau alliance against the more savage and/or innimitable to life races seems a lot more likely than it would with the Emperor still kicking around keeping things together.

Well, there is one fleet - Leviathan? - that an Inquisitor(Kryptman I think) managed to divert into attacking a section of Ork-held space. It was a couple hundred years ago, and hasn't stopped since - the hive fleets diverting more and more resources to the front, more and bigger Orks flocking to the fight.

hamishspence
2010-08-19, 01:02 PM
Well, there is one fleet - Leviathan? - that an Inquisitor(Kryptman I think) managed to divert into attacking a section of Ork-held space. It was a couple hundred years ago, and hasn't stopped since - the hive fleets diverting more and more resources to the front, more and bigger Orks flocking to the fight.

More like a couple of years ago than a couple of hundred- (Leviathan first appeared in 40997, and the present is assumed to be roughly 41000 in the 5E rulebook)

and in the 5E Tyranid codex, the Tyranids have finally started to get the upper hand over the orks- while they almost came to a halt, they are now advancing rapidly.

Plus a whole bunch of other Tyranid fleets have emerged- some even closer to Terra now than Leviathan is.

HamHam
2010-08-19, 01:04 PM
I wonder what happens if the main Tyrannid fleet drifts through an area of space absolutely thick with Orc-Spores?

They get an Ork WAAAAGH! infestation.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-19, 01:34 PM
More like a couple of years ago than a couple of hundred- (Leviathan first appeared in 40997, and the present is assumed to be roughly 41000 in the 5E rulebook)

and in the 5E Tyranid codex, the Tyranids have finally started to get the upper hand over the orks- while they almost came to a halt, they are now advancing rapidly.

Plus a whole bunch of other Tyranid fleets have emerged- some even closer to Terra now than Leviathan is.

Eh, I get the timescales mixed up pretty frequently, though I thought it was longer than that.

Have the Orks gotten a 5E codex yet?

hamishspence
2010-08-19, 01:36 PM
Have the Orks gotten a 5E codex yet?

Nope- they got one very late in 4E, only a few months before 5E came out.

classy one
2010-08-19, 01:52 PM
Just flipped through the Inquisitor game book and one of the first pages was very interesting. It was between 4 humans right after the Emperor ascended. It seemed to imply the the Golden Throne could in fact bring the Emperor back to life in his former glory but was not done because of special interests and the risks. One was worried that if brought back, the Emperor would not be the same, or that it would fail and they would have no Emperor at all. One or two of them wished to risk raising the Emperor anyway and seem to have been "silenced".

If this was the case then maybe they need not be a true death for the Emperor, just need to get through the Inquisition...... Which could be harder....

DeltaEmil
2010-08-19, 01:59 PM
Most of the current-age Inquisitors don't even know about this treachery that was done in secret almost a hundred centuries ago. Also, the most powerful faction amongst the inquisition is the one about the status quo, for they cannot risk that the Imperium ends when the emperor ever gets free.

However, at 999M.41, the golden throne has a malfunction that none of the tech-adepts know how to repair...

Malificus
2010-08-19, 02:04 PM
IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE, THERE IS ONLY WAR

The orks have won. Eternal war is exactly the kind of win condition an ork has.

HamHam
2010-08-19, 02:12 PM
Is a genestealer infestation amongst Orks even possible?

JeanThine
2010-08-19, 02:22 PM
Orcs reproduce through spores, Tyranids just shove the organic waste of a planet and its inhabitants into the old reproductive biomachinery and give guns to whatever comes out. If anything, by the end of the war with the orcs they'll be more agressive and all round tougher.

I'm not sure you could pass off genestealers which are grown out of goop as orcs which are basically sentient plants, but maybe something comes out of the hive womb that starts shedding spores?

On the overall topic, Nids for sure. I agree with the assessment that the fleets we have seen up till now are only the tip of the galaxy consuming iceberg. It would be possible to stop them if all the warp capable races teemed up to try and deal with whatever is motivating the Tyranids, but that'd be next to impossible. Other fun tactics involve a galactic scale scorched earth policy, rake all worlds clean of life in the hive fleet's path, then draw them into an inter-species co-operative ambush. But that'll only work about once.

Tau are a crazy choice for an end victory, because they're simply too idealistic and small. If they had crazy gods of destruction on hand, or an immortal leader then they'd be able to play with the big boys. From a meta-perspective, they're really for players who a) don't like losing, ever and b) like to have a moral high-ground in a universe that is dragging itself through the worst evil every single second. But then again, I ****ing hate the Tau.

classy one
2010-08-19, 02:30 PM
I remember reading that the 'nids had tried this on the Orcs and it simply hadn't worked. They had stolen Orc DNA and used it to create Squigs and the like but the inherent 'orkiness' of the Squigs was too strong and when deployed against the orcs they instantly switched sides.
( if this has since been written out of continuity I apologize)

Where was this written? That's very interesting..... So if the whole fleet intergrated the Orkoid gene they would becomes Orkz? In that case, yes da Orkz have already won. Even their genes do Waaaagh!s.

Octopus Jack
2010-08-19, 02:44 PM
My moneys on the Orks, even disorganised they still can't be destroyed. Stopped? Yes but not completely exterminated. The fact that the spores can travel a vast distance means that untouched planets can easily become infected and overrun very quickly.

Also I believe reading somewhere that:

A) ork's spores can also produce an ork breathable atmosphere on a planet and

B) the orks were created to be the ultimate bioweapon.

correct me if I'm wrong

DeltaEmil
2010-08-19, 03:21 PM
Squigs are today now fully orkoid creatures also born from spores. Back then in 1st edition, when orks still were marsupial creatures instead of asexual evil mushrooms, squigs were a tyranid bio-product that the orks just adopted. In 1st edition, the tyranids however weren't the uber-menace they are now since 2nd edition, just something unknown, and the genestealers were a separate army.

Genestealer can however easily infest orks who pop out of the ground. Sure, there won't be a cyclus like genestealer do when they infest humans, but orks breed fast, and those who come out from the ground haven't prepared themselves that fast. They just can't make the orks have babies anymore, since that's been retconned.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-19, 05:49 PM
Just flipped through the Inquisitor game book and one of the first pages was very interesting. It was between 4 humans right after the Emperor ascended. It seemed to imply the the Golden Throne could in fact bring the Emperor back to life in his former glory but was not done because of special interests and the risks. One was worried that if brought back, the Emperor would not be the same, or that it would fail and they would have no Emperor at all. One or two of them wished to risk raising the Emperor anyway and seem to have been "silenced".

If this was the case then maybe they need not be a true death for the Emperor, just need to get through the Inquisition...... Which could be harder....

Actually the Golden Throne is failing. That is why more and more Psykers have to be fed each time. They do not have the technology to repair it (only the Emperor knew how to do this). The Throne will eventually completely stop functioning and the Emperor's body will die.

Wardog
2010-08-19, 06:56 PM
A note on the Tau:
If the Tau weren't the tiny, insignificant flyspeck that they are on the galactic scale I'd rate their chances a hell of a lot higher. Their philosophy of (relative) tolerance and working together gives them a huge advantage over the other races.

Of course, that runs into the problem that this is the WH40k 'verse.

Sure, they can persuade a few minor races (Kroot, Vespids, etc) to join them. But with any of the really significant races (the ones who could form a nigh-unbeatable alliance if they worked together with the Tau), it would go something like this:


Tau: Hey guys - lets team up. If we work together, share our technology, and complement each others strengths and weaknesses, we could take on the galaxy and create a utopia. For the Greater Good!

Imperium: HERESY! BLASPHEMY! KILL THE XENOS!

Eldar: Sure, I suppose you baldy grey upstarts might be useful for something. For example... [pushes Tau ambasador off a cliff, because it will somehow prevent an Eldar stubbing his toe 1000 years in the future].

Squats: [sorry, the race you wish to contact is not known at this address]

Dark Eldar: RAPE! TORTURE! RAPE! TORTURE!

Orks: KILL! SMASH! WAAAGH!!!

Chaos: KILL! SMASH! RAPE! TORTURE! BURN!

'Nids: OM NOM NOM!

Necrons: EXERMINATE THE LIVING!


Tau *Sigh*

9mm
2010-08-19, 07:24 PM
Well, both of these races were released at the same time, so that might have something to do with it.

that and it's hinted that the Tau might be a part of the C'tan's various schemes. Honestly the winner of 40K hasn't been revealed yet. my bet is on the devourers though.

Eldariel
2010-08-19, 07:50 PM
that and it's hinted that the Tau might be a part of the C'tan's various schemes. Honestly the winner of 40K hasn't been revealed yet. my bet is on the devourers though.

Winners?! The world is in an eternal conflict. Due to the meaning of the word "eternal", the concept of "win" cannot exist.

Tinydwarfman
2010-08-19, 11:06 PM
Winners?! The world is in an eternal conflict. Due to the meaning of the word "eternal", the concept of "win" cannot exist.

See, there's the problem. There may be eternal conflict, but it will only be between the Nids and the Orkz, as all other races will be exterminated by one of those two in the long run unless something drastically changes (eg: Emperor being reborn.)

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-19, 11:23 PM
Don't Forget Necrons. With their regenerative capabilities, there might as well be an Infinite number of them.

Tinydwarfman
2010-08-19, 11:25 PM
Don't Forget Necrons. With their regenerative capabilities, there might as well be an Infinite number of them.

Oh, they'll last for a looong time, but they can be destroyed permanently, which is the important thing.

Rowsen
2010-08-19, 11:36 PM
Don't Forget Necrons. With their regenerative capabilities, there might as well be an Infinite number of them.
Agreed. You could fight a hundred battles and they're still there. Of course it's less a case of infinite numbers as it is "It's the same blinking Necrons each time."

Of course I bet on a Tyranid victory. Unless of course HERPDERP GOD EMPEROR HURR EXTERMINATUS DURR. Damn Imperium.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-19, 11:45 PM
Agreed. You could fight a hundred battles and they're still there. Of course it's less a case of infinite numbers as it is "It's the same blinking Necrons each time."

Of course I bet on a Tyranid victory. Unless of course HERPDERP GOD EMPEROR HURR EXTERMINATUS DURR. Damn Imperium.

Exactly my point. They come back. Always. They're like Liches with Phylacteries under a permanencied Prismatic Sphere.

Rowsen
2010-08-19, 11:49 PM
Exactly my point. They come back. Always. They're like Liches with Phylacteries under a permanencied Prismatic Sphere.

So...pack the Greater Dispel scrolls then?

FelixG
2010-08-20, 12:07 AM
Who will win in warhammer 40k?

Game workshops bank account.

Grifthin
2010-08-20, 01:38 AM
If the Eldar manage to pull off their little God of the Dead gambit they win. They can start breeding at a increased rate again - with a Enormous amount of people walking the path of the warrior and their seers talents at avoiding unfavorable conflict they can once more take control of the universe. Plus there's the hole Stars living and dying at their command - if they start throwing around that sort of tech again as well as inhabiting their maiden worlds the other races are in for a world of hurt.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-20, 01:56 AM
No, they can't. Their "winning" gambit involves all eldar to be dead, so that their souls can combine into Ynnead in the infinity circuit, and them being released into oblivion, instead of remaining conscious while their souls enters the warp.

Also, as of 4th edition, this condition is only a seldom mentioned vision shared by even fewer seers, who do not believe in it.

Now, how the dark eldar of the webway cities play a role into this is another question.

Alleran
2010-08-20, 01:57 AM
If by "win" we mean that one race achieves dominance over the others, I'd go with the following:

The Imperium, if the Emperor dies and finally triggers the Star Child. Additionally, the Emperor is actually just human evolution kickstarted up several notches, so if that could somehow be done on a wide scale, humanity would evolve into a fully psychic race. Where everybody has the powers of the Emperor. Every. Last. Human. The C'Tan will probably flee in terror at that point (the Emperor went up against Void Dragon once in 1300 AD, and curbstomped him so hard that when he built a rocket and fired the C'Tan to Mars, Void Dragon hit so hard that he's only just now coming out of his comatose state).

They can also win if the AdMech finds a fully-functioning STC (I remember an amusing comic I saw somewhere that pointed out how if the AdMech would send a fleet of ships and give entire planets to somebody who found a diagram of an STC-built knife, if you were to get a working STC they would literally strap rockets onto Mars and fly the planet to you). With a single STC, they could probably reproduce more of them, and from that point onward, it's back to the Dark Age of Technology in terms of advancement. There was one planet still at Dark Age levels (with an STC) that the Imperium tried to attack for ten years straight. They continually repulsed every single attempt, and because the technology the Imperium faced was too advanced for them, they just had to give up and quarantine the place.

Orks. Well, the entire galaxy is at war anyway. So the Orks have already won, in a sense. If they win a fight, they win. If they die, then they're dead, so they haven't technically lost, and they get to die fighting so they win anyway.

Tau... I think they're going to get on the wrong side of Chaos at some point. I remember implications that the Eldar have been meddling in their evolution for a while now as well.

Tinydwarfman
2010-08-20, 02:15 AM
Speaking of, is there any 'win condition' for the Dark Eldar or Chaos? I'm not too familiar with them.

chiasaur11
2010-08-20, 02:15 AM
Orkz, as others have mentioned.

They win?

Well, hey now. They win. Nothing else to be said.

They lose but don't die?

Well, they can run away to fight another day, when they'll win, so it's winning.

They die?

They're Orkz, so if they die it's going to be in battle, which don't count.

They won already.

If we're talking long term survival? Orkz too, probably. Can match the 'nids for numbers, resistant to outside influences (and prone to the murdering of any gits who get all spiky), and top it all off with the possibility of generating individuals more powerful than anyone else, ever (One Warboss, if I remember, took on the GEOM. And would have won if Horus wasn't there. Nasty powerful fellow)

Oddly, this is less bad for the losing parties than most other win conditions.




Of course, all this is intentionally ignoring CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM. He'd win the whole deal by hisself.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-20, 02:19 AM
The Imperium, if the Emperor dies and finally triggers the Star Child. Additionally, the Emperor is actually just human evolution kickstarted up several notches, so if that could somehow be done on a wide scale, humanity would evolve into a fully psychic race. Where everybody has the powers of the Emperor. Every. Last. Human. The C'Tan will probably flee in terror at that point (the Emperor went up against Void Dragon once in 1300 AD, and curbstomped him so hard that when he built a rocket and fired the C'Tan to Mars, Void Dragon hit so hard that he's only just now coming out of his comatose state).Without the direct guidance of the emperor, when humanity evolves into a fully psychic race, they all die and get eaten by warp wasps, or are transformed into fleshy warpgates by the eponymous enslavers, who nearly destroyed all life in the galaxy almost 60 million years ago. The natural warp creatures are different from such weak beings like chaos gods or the emperor.
This event is already starting, with many thousand worlds being cut off by warp storms and overrun by chaos daemons or the even worse warp predators, enabled by the uncontrolled masses of psykers amongst the 1 million worlds that the Imperium controls, and not even the Inquisition is capable of finding them all.
When the emperor turns into the starchild, the Imperium will since long have ceased to exist, as without the astropathich choir or the astronomican, no communication nor guiding light in the warp is possible.
Without the great protection of the Imperium's army and naval fleets or the legendary space marines, most worlds will fall into anarchy, rebell, worship demonic gods or get conquered and possibly annihilated by aliens.
Perhaps a few non-psychic human settlements might survive and start anew, like in the great diaspora that came after the death of Leto II. in Dune, so there might be hope, but not really.
Also, the visions of the void dragon are not reliable, and nobody knows how the emperor defeated the c'tan. The fact that the Old Ones and their eldar servants couldn't really kill him when they used the might of the black fortresses (then known as the talismans of vaul) means that the c'tan can't be killed, only weakened at best, and might have been still in that state when the emperor confronted it.
And then there's the rumors that the dragon is responsible for the great wars in the age of strife, when robots started killing humans, psykers unleashed warp storms and aliens plundered and pillaged everything.

They can also win if the AdMech finds a fully-functioning STC (I remember an amusing comic I saw somewhere that pointed out how if the AdMech would send a fleet of ships and give entire planets to somebody who found a diagram of an STC-built knife, if you were to get a working STC they would literally strap rockets onto Mars and fly the planet to you). With a single STC, they could probably reproduce more of them, and from that point onward, it's back to the Dark Age of Technology in terms of advancement. There was one planet still at Dark Age levels (with an STC) that the Imperium tried to attack for ten years straight. They continually repulsed every single attempt, and because the technology the Imperium faced was too advanced for them, they just had to give up and quarantine the place.The imperium in fact destroyed the world by plunging several meteors onto it's surface, which the kult mechanikus did object to.
Standart template constructs come in different forms. Blueprints, and factories. Of course, the factories that can create nearly everything are more valuable than the ones who can only print the instructions how to create the things, or only some parts of it.
After finding it, however, the adeptus mechanicus will still need to analize it for almost a milennia. You must after all pay proper respect to the machine god (who might be the emperor, or the dragon himself, depending on who in the kult mechanikus you ask).

Tau... I think they're going to get on the wrong side of Chaos at some point. I remember implications that the Eldar have been meddling in their evolution for a while now as well.Only a speculation of an insane magos biologis, who's been manipulated by a necron lord, and with a grotesque mistake (the oft-mentioned tau with feet that can't be - warp mutation, chaos tau or just mental breakdown of the magos to explain this)
The only fact is that a craftword once defeated an ork Waaagh! that threatened the planet T'Au, before the Tau themselves had achieved space flight, or were even united under the mysterious ethereals.

Alleran
2010-08-20, 03:51 AM
I had a huge response typed up, but my computer burped and I lost it.:smallannoyed:

So cliff notes, I guess.


Without the direct guidance of the emperor, when humanity evolves into a fully psychic race, they all die and get eaten by warp wasps,
The Emperor survived for thousands of years. He's also stronger than all four in concert, depending on your viewpoint of his blasting them out of Horus. Additionally, the shamans who kept being eaten by those same Warp creatures in between reincarnations used their reincarnation into the Emperor to escape that problem. And since then, there hasn't been an issue with it. Not for the Emperor, at least.


This event is already starting, with many thousand worlds being cut off by warp storms and overrun by chaos daemons or the even worse warp predators, enabled by the uncontrolled masses of psykers amongst the 1 million worlds that the Imperium controls, and not even the Inquisition is capable of finding them all.
Yes. My hypothetical situation is if every human is kickstarted past this event like the Emperor was.


When the emperor turns into the starchild, the Imperium will since long have ceased to exist, as without the astropathich choir or the astronomican, no communication nor guiding light in the warp is possible.
All the Star Child needs to reach full bloom is the death of the Emperor's mortal body. That's the trigger event it is waiting for. So unless the Astronomicon fails before the Emperor dies (and since he's maintaining it while he's alive, it's more likely that it could fail when he expires, not before - and I wouldn't put it past him to have a backup plan in that event anyway), humanity should be safe on that account.


and nobody knows how the emperor defeated the c'tan.
We do know that he beat him. And that Void Dragon spent the next few tens of thousands of years in a comatose state because of it.


The fact that the Old Ones and their eldar servants couldn't really kill him when they used the might of the black fortresses (then known as the talismans of vaul)
The Talismans of Vaul are weapons designed to use the Warp against an opponent. The Warp is anathema to the C'Tan. What exactly happened between Vaul and the Void Dragon is unknown, though the general rumour-fluff that 40K runs on is that he screwed up somehow, letting Void Dragon escape. Had he done it right, VD would be dead. The C'Tan can't handle the Warp.


The imperium in fact destroyed the world by plunging several meteors onto it's surface, which the kult mechanikus did object to.
I don't remember that part, just the quarantine one. You're sure it wasn't a different Dark Age-level planet?


Standart template constructs come in different forms. Blueprints, and factories. Of course, the factories that can create nearly everything are more valuable than the ones who can only print the instructions how to create the things, or only some parts of it.
I'm talking about the ones that, when used on a world composed of trees and grass (and you want to build a suit of Power Armour), will tell you exactly how to produce that suit of Power Armour (or produce it itself), and because it's an STC-made or STC-designed suit, it'll be better than any other suit of Power Armour around.


After finding it, however, the adeptus mechanicus will still need to analize it for almost a milennia.
It took them about six to twelve months at the most to turn a Baneblade STC diagram into entire convoys of fully armed and operational battle stat- er, tanks.


You must after all pay proper respect to the machine god (who might be the emperor, or the dragon himself, depending on who in the kult mechanikus you ask).
The Machine Spirit/God is a farce, really. If you clean your gun with oil and remove dirt and grit from the barrel, you're not placating a Machine Spirit, you're making sure the gun doesn't jam. Except because of the decay of knowledge regarding technology, it's believed that you ARE placating a Machine Spirit, even though you really aren't. Though the nature of 40K means that you might end up creating a Warp God Machine God anyway as a result, depending on belief.

About the closest thing to a real Machine Spirit is the AI programs in a Land Raider, off the top of my head. And those are more like:

IF PILOT=NONE, THEN MODE=Search_For_Enemy, AND IF ENEMY=Found, THEN COMMENCE PROGRAM Kill_Enemy

Not really very smart. Nowhere near what humanity had during the Dark Age.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-20, 03:59 AM
It is worth remembering that (For Humans, anyway) Deific Ascention WORKS. If you revere something enough, and convert enough people, that God will form in the warp. So Yeah...

On the other hand, I have to agree there.

Killer Angel
2010-08-20, 04:05 AM
Ah, the eternal conflict fueled by internet debates!

Anyway, don't know who'll win, but Orks will have the greatest fun.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-20, 04:09 AM
Ah, the eternal conflict fueled by internet debates!

Anyway, don't know who'll win, but Orks will have the greatest fun.

That is really the only thing we can know for sure. Except that Eldar don't stand a chance.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-20, 05:12 AM
The Emperor survived for thousands of years. He's also stronger than all four in concert, depending on your viewpoint of his blasting them out of Horus. Additionally, the shamans who kept being eaten by those same Warp creatures in between reincarnations used their reincarnation into the Emperor to escape that problem. And since then, there hasn't been an issue with it. Not for the Emperor, at least.The original text from 10 years ago only tells that the emperor only felt how the chaos gods withdrew from Horus, just as they withdraw from any champion they don't like anymore.
As of 999M.41, the emperor's body's dead, only kept working by the golden throne, which has an "unexplainable" malfunction. Back then, when the shamans formed, the warp wass less dangerous, and the shamans had foreseen that Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch would come into their current form millennia later, so they had enough time to become the emperor. By the time Khorne was born as first, the emperor already walked the Earth for centuries, even many thousand years.

Mankind's fate in the grim darkness of the 41st milennium however is to die one way or the other, no matter how much the emperor kicks ass in his rotten state to prevent that.

Yes. My hypothetical situation is if every human is kickstarted past this event like the Emperor was.The emperor had the advantage of forming when the warp was okay, and the chaos gods hadn't be given consciousness yet. In the 41st milennium, the warp is chokefull of chaos daemons, the chaos gods are more powerful than ever, and with the eye of terror, they can now influence the real universe better than ever.
Chaos is now at it's peak, and will remain so unless the Tyranids will devour all life, or the Necrons and their C'tan masters finish their great work.
Humanity however, will die out with the eldar.

All the Star Child needs to reach full bloom is the death of the Emperor's mortal body. That's the trigger event it is waiting for. So unless the Astronomicon fails before the Emperor dies (and since he's maintaining it while he's alive, it's more likely that it could fail when he expires, not before - and I wouldn't put it past him to have a backup plan in that event anyway), humanity should be safe on that account.The emperor had only limited foresight, which didn't work anymore when the Horus Heresy started. Also, the emperor never wanted to be stuck for many thousand years later till his body completely dies. Mere mortals, the predecessors of the Inquisitors, have done the unthinkable and imprisoned the emperor, so that they could capitalize on the emerging religious movement which deified the emperor (who tried to stop this in the first place, as worship also strengthens the ruinous powers).
All the plans of the emperor have failed, and he is prisoner.
The malfunction in the throne might perhaps one day free him, but perhaps mankind will have long since then ceased to exist...

We do know that he beat him. And that Void Dragon spent the next few tens of thousands of years in a comatose state because of it.A time that is nothing for the ageless C'tan, who slept over 60 million years till food grew again.

The Talismans of Vaul are weapons designed to use the Warp against an opponent. The Warp is anathema to the C'Tan. What exactly happened between Vaul and the Void Dragon is unknown, though the general rumour-fluff that 40K runs on is that he screwed up somehow, letting Void Dragon escape. Had he done it right, VD would be dead. The C'Tan can't handle the Warp.Vaul didn't screw up (the only part of him and screwing up with any C'tan was only about forging the weapons that Khaine needed against the Nightbringer, a myth I consider to be about warfleets and the creation of the first ships with infinity circuits). The talismans all functioned perfectly, yet still only giving pause to the dragon (although he had to flee at least). Also, no story exists about how the C'tan can ever be killed except for their own, when the Outsider started the cycling of devouring each another. The warp being anathema for the C'tan only means that they dislike it and can't influence its strange properties.

I don't remember that part, just the quarantine one. You're sure it wasn't a different Dark Age-level planet?Depends if we're talking about the same. There was one planet that defied Lord Commander Solar Macharius, who conquered a thousand worlds in only a few years, hailed as the greatest warmaster (or lord solar) since the age of the crusade. That planet had technology from the Dark/Golden Age of Technology, which was very important to the adeptus mechanicus, but their defenses proved impenetrable for any ground and orbital forces the crusade had, so they took several heavy asteroids from the local belt and threw them to that planet. A great loss for the kult mechanikus, and for mankind.

I'm talking about the ones that, when used on a world composed of trees and grass (and you want to build a suit of Power Armour), will tell you exactly how to produce that suit of Power Armour (or produce it itself), and because it's an STC-made or STC-designed suit, it'll be better than any other suit of Power Armour around.All current power armor used by the astartes are STC-designed armor, created under the watchful eyes of the emperor himself when he still walked amongst men. Many technology comes from STC. Lasguns were created from STCs, tanks (the sturdy Leman Russ, the Baneblade), the titans, many warships etc.
STCs that build all stuff there ever is on their own are only a belief in the mechanicus, seeing as amongst the two million worlds the Imperium conquered before the Horus Heresy, nothing of that sort was found.

It took them about six to twelve months at the most to turn a Baneblade STC diagram into entire convoys of fully armed and operational battle stat- er, tanks.After they prayed to the machine god, annointed the libraries that would those sacred designs, sacrificed ceremonial animals and such. And that's only for a bunch of blueprints. A fabled superfactory that builds everything and has all knowledge intact would kill half of all techno-priests dead by sheer orgasm...

The Machine Spirit/God is a farce, really. If you clean your gun with oil and remove dirt and grit from the barrel, you're not placating a Machine Spirit, you're making sure the gun doesn't jam. Except because of the decay of knowledge regarding technology, it's believed that you ARE placating a Machine Spirit, even though you really aren't. Though the nature of 40K means that you might end up creating a Warp God Machine God anyway as a result, depending on belief.Machine spirits exist in two variants. The lie-for-children that the tech-priests teach to the ignorant imperials how they should treat the sacred machinery with respect, and the real ones also called machien spirits in form of partially bio-organic A.I. that can be found in titans, baneblades and other highly advanced pieces of machinery (only the flesh shall posess a soul in the beliefs of the crazed machine priests).

About the closest thing to a real Machine Spirit is the AI programs in a Land Raider, off the top of my head. And those are more like:

IF PILOT=NONE, THEN MODE=Search_For_Enemy, AND IF ENEMY=Found, THEN COMMENCE PROGRAM Kill_Enemy

Not really very smart. Nowhere near what humanity had during the Dark Age.And the landraiders, yes. There was a story where a landraider flooded itself with radioactive melting waste when orks had killed the crew and were starting to board it, so at least kinda intelligent.

Killer Angel
2010-08-20, 07:13 AM
IThe Emperor survived for thousands of years. He's also stronger than all four in concert, depending on your viewpoint of his blasting them out of Horus.

Exactly.
We have the major infos 'bout that fight, from sources not exactly impartial.
If we take the Black Legion Index Astartes, another sources not impartial, but official nonetheless, we know that once, The Emperor was beeing defeated by a single (powerful) warboss, and he was only saved by Horus.
So we see that the power edge is very variable, depending on circumstances.

The way I see the "blasting the Four out of Horus", is more as: the Chaos Gods saw that Horus was winning, so they abandoned him, obtaining their real objective: an Emperor crippled but still "active", at the edge of the Imperium of Men.
The Chaos' victory, is the actual situation: the Imperium contributes to the continual wars, it fuels hatred and violence cross the universe, and it's an endless source of corruptible souls. The Chaos Gods don't want to crush the Imperium... they like it the way it is, that's why they leave alone Horus on that fight.

Meta
2010-08-20, 09:21 AM
I think the rulebook (arguably the most unbiased?) mentions that the Emperor was winning the fight with Horus, couldn't kill his beloved son, which is pretty much the Emperor's tragic flaw if you wanna bring some literature into this. So Horus smote him and the Emperor finished him off as he fell.

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 10:00 AM
I've dug out the classic Battle for the Palace story from the fluff thread (where I originally quoted it):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9065687&postcount=975

and while the fact that the Emperor was holding back contributed to his defeat, it was a case of him being slowly curbstomped all through the fight, until finally, when someone else came into the room and Horus horribly killed him, the now badly wounded Emperor chose to direct a massive amount of power into killing Horus.

The very beat-up Emperor was then found by Rogal Dorn.

The Collected Visions of the Heresy book does expand the end of that scene slightly- with Horus asking the Emperor to kill him now before he's possessed again, and the Emperor asking Dorn to bring him to the Throne.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-20, 10:02 AM
Which makes the emperor rather a jerkish dork. Horus had by then executed exterminatus on a lot of worlds, has brought the most devastating war to the Imperium yet, has openly used the forces of the ruinous powers, and killed Sanguinius, the blood angel primarch. And Horus also cackles maniacally.
By then, everybody should know that the other guy's quite irredemable or so deep in his feces, and the emperor did teleport up to Horus' battlebarge to kill him together with his most loyal remaining soldiers.
Only when a dude (a guardsman called Olanius Pius - retconned into either a blood angel terminator, an iron fist terminator or a custodian legionnary - GW needs to make up their minds who get killed so casually) got flicked into nothingness did the emperor decide that enough is enough. I mean, really? With other primarchs dead and several hundred billions having died till then didn't make the emperor angry? That's a joke.

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 10:03 AM
He was always angry- but he was hoping he could get through to Horus- and that scene convinced him he couldn't.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-20, 10:10 AM
And then do what? Kill him anyway? Because Horus had by then been irredemably corrupted by chaos and brought the greatest catastrophe upon man since they survived the apocalyptic age of strife.

"Sup dawg, we heard you like killing people and worshipping chaos stuff, so we're trying to kill your d00dz and you t00 while you were cackling."

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 10:25 AM
There was a very good reason why the Emperor never left Terra until that last battle- because he had to direct the Astronomicon, and after Magnus's message damaged the webway gate on Terra. he had to remain on the Throne and hold it secure to prevent a massive daemon incursion on Earth.

When he went after Horus, he put one of the most powerful psykers ever aside from him (Malcador) on the Throne to keep it secure while he fought Horus. By the time he got back, Malcador was on the brink of dying.

Also- in the most recent Horus Heresy book (still set early on) The Emperor does authorize assassins to be sent after Horus.

Meta
2010-08-20, 11:26 AM
I've dug out the classic Battle for the Palace story from the fluff thread (where I originally quoted it):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9065687&postcount=975

and while the fact that the Emperor was holding back contributed to his defeat, it was a case of him being slowly curbstomped all through the fight, until finally, when someone else came into the room and Horus horribly killed him, the now badly wounded Emperor chose to direct a massive amount of power into killing Horus.

The very beat-up Emperor was then found by Rogal Dorn.

The Collected Visions of the Heresy book does expand the end of that scene slightly- with Horus asking the Emperor to kill him now before he's possessed again, and the Emperor asking Dorn to bring him to the Throne.

Entertaining. I think I read something a little different in the 3ed rulebook though. I could be mistaken, it's been quite awhile

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 11:38 AM
a lot's happened since 3rd ed. However, Collected Visions, while having a lot of new stuff, has the Battle for the Palace be almost word for word what was in the William King story. Except at the end.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-20, 11:42 AM
There was a very good reason why the Emperor never left Terra until that last battle- because he had to direct the Astronomicon, and after Magnus's message damaged the webway gate on Terra. he had to remain on the Throne and hold it secure to prevent a massive daemon incursion on Earth.

When he went after Horus, he put one of the most powerful psykers ever aside from him (Malcador) on the Throne to keep it secure while he fought Horus. By the time he got back, Malcador was on the brink of dying.

Also- in the most recent Horus Heresy book (still set early on) The Emperor does authorize assassins to be sent after Horus.That I know. But I wonder why the emperor still tried to reason or to spare Horus, when Horus was already so tainted and disruptive to the Imperium that the Emperor didn't fight at full power from the beginning. Just because some nameless dude in terminator armor (who gets retconned into something else with each new mention of the battle between the emperor and Horus) died shouldn't make the emperor suddenly go super-sayajin on Horus' ass.
Unless the emperor was a huge ****, which might explain why he didn't train his overgrown children in a little bit maturity, and about the dangers of the warp.

"Sup dawg, I heard you burned half my empire to the ground for the lulz, so I was gonna talk to y00 to stop it."

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 11:49 AM
That I know. But I wonder why the emperor still tried to reason or to spare Horus, when Horus was already so tainted and disruptive to the Imperium that the Emperor didn't fight at full power from the beginning. Just because some nameless dude in terminator armor (who gets retconned into something else with each new mention of the battle between the emperor and Horus) died shouldn't make the emperor suddenly go super-sayajin on Horus' ass.
Unless the emperor was a huge ****, which might explain why he didn't train his overgrown children in a little bit maturity, and about the dangers of the warp.

"Sup dawg, I heard you burned half my empire to the ground for the lulz, so I was gonna talk to y00 to stop it."

In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan has the same problem at first- because of his emotional attachment to Anakin he's unable to go full force- even though he was sent to kill him. Then he lets go of it, and Anakin loses both legs and an arm.

Killer Angel
2010-08-20, 12:53 PM
I've dug out the classic Battle for the Palace story from the fluff thread (where I originally quoted it):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9065687&postcount=975



Nice recall, thanks.
Anyway, I find this interesting:


Mad laughter rings out. "Why? You ask me why? Have all those millennia tought you nothing? Weak fool, your timidity prevented you from binding the forces of Chaos. You shied away from the ultimate power. I have bound it to my will and will lead humanity into a new age. I, Horus, Master Of Chaos."

(big snip)

Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has commited flicker across Horus's face. Tears glisten there.

what a masterful joke!
The Chaos Gods punished Horus, their too much prideful pawn, who presumed to control Them. They fueled Horus' power, 'til the BIG Emperor's strike, at which point, they stopped to shield Horus, leaving him to die, and returning to him his humanity, thus rendering his death much bitter.
Probably, They're still laughin', remembering that foolish pawn.

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 01:00 PM
I think it was announced that William King is writing Warhammer books for Black Library again (after a long hiatus- the last book I recall him writing was Giantslayer).

Here's hoping that he writes the full-length novel version of the events immediately before and including Battle For the Palace- when the Horus Heresy novel series finally reaches that point.

Artanis
2010-08-21, 12:12 PM
I'm not terribly familiar with the WH40K fluff, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Imperial ships don't strictly need the Astronomicon to travel, it simply lets them get where they're going a hell of a lot faster. So I honestly ask, is/was that the case at the moment?



As for who will win, as some have implied during this thread, you win a war by accomplishing your objectives, not necessarily by conquering everything or killing all of the enemy*. With that being the case, I agree that the Orks (objective: WAAAGH!) have basically already won, and the Tyranids (objective: NOM NOM NOM) have the best chance of winning in the end as well. Also, the Eldar's chances (objective: take Slaanesh down with them) look a lot better, albeit still very slim at best.



*Of course, winning requires those things if they ARE your objectives.

hamishspence
2010-08-21, 12:22 PM
They need it to navigate- without it, Navigators are horribly in trouble.

4-light year jumps can be done without a Navigator's input- but they are risky. Anything more than that, and it's out of the question.

The outer edges of the Imperium, especially along the Eastern Fringe, are at the distance where this is the only way to travel.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-21, 06:32 PM
Also, before the Horus Heresy, the warp was more calm than afterwards, which didn't cause so many distortions in time and space when traveling through it. "Nowadays", when a ship stays in the warp too long, you could end in the past, in the future, could arrive before you actually started, be at your goal only after 1 second had happened in the real universe, or never arrive at all and fuse together with other lost ships to become Space Hulks.
Navigators ensure that those things don't happen if possible, which allows a ship to stay in the warp for a long time.

Coidzor
2010-08-21, 06:52 PM
He was always angry

Wait, the Emprah's an Angry Marine?!

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-21, 06:59 PM
Wait, the Emprah's an Angry Marine?!

Marines, if I recall, are made from the primarchs. The Primarchs, if I recall, were made from the Emprah.

Therefor, Angry Marine's are made from the Emprah. He's the Original Angry Marine. :smallwink:
Or, well, not.

classy one
2010-08-21, 09:15 PM
The Imperium could technically go back to shallow jumps. They would have to make their territory much much smaller (like the size of the Tau) but as long argi and forge worlds are connected to hive worlds it should be sustainable, albeit much more fragmented.
If done in an organized way, the Imperium (or the confederation that will follow it) could survive until the star child matures.
No seemed to mention that the rebirth of the Emperor will also require the death of all his offspring (Sensei). These "blanks" are the opposite of the shamans of old and just like the shamans they all need to willingly sacrifice themselves to allow the Emperor's reincarnation. Of course, the Inquisition hunts these Sensei like it is their job (I guess it IS their job).

Everyone has mentioned the Necrons already but I'll give my take on them (finally)
Necrons
Sci-fi undead with their C'tan "gods" have technology that likily exceeds the Eldar, immortal shells, and the leadership of ageless beings on their side. The War in Heaven showed that they could have harvested all life of it wasn't for the pesky enslavers.
Chances of success: Decent. They were basically winning against the Old Ones and the young races so they have history on their side. They are all nearly invincible. Even if a speck of necrodermis exists, full regeneration is possible. The C'tan are awesome in their power and scope of knowledge and perfect for directing this undying force.

What's stopping them: the powers of the warp are even more powerful than ever and C'tan HATE the warp. Chaos is at an all time high while Necrons are the same as ever. Even if you are immortal, superior numbers will just overwhlem you multiple times. The Necrons are still waking from a long sleep which reduces their numbers even more. In many ways, the Necrons are just as stagnant as the Imperium. No culture, no advancement, no progress, no proliferation. In sixy million years they now only have 2 C'tan (sane ones). Also C'tan ARE NOT gods, unlike the Chaos gods. I highly doubt a C'tan could stand up to a Deamon prince much less Nurgle himself.

Oslecamo
2010-08-21, 09:23 PM
With that being the case, I agree that the Orks (objective: WAAAGH!) have basically already won,
Considering one of the main catch phrases of 40K:

In the grimdarkness of the future, there is only war.

Yes, orks have already won long ago. Their reality-warping WWWAAAGGGHHH powers is actualy the best way of explaining the whole 40K setting! The diferent races are all butchering each other and themselves for any and no reason because da orks like a proper fight.

That also leaves Khorne as the 2nd winner since he's the main profiter of whatever leftovers Gork and Mork leave behind.


classy one: the nightbringer took an union between Khaine and the Laughing god to take down. Temporaly.

Coidzor
2010-08-21, 10:05 PM
That also leaves Khorne as the 2nd winner since he's the main profiter of whatever leftovers Gork and Mork leave behind.

Actually, whenever I see Khorne mentioned I always wonder why he isn't just a part of Gork (or was it Mork?).