OOTS #743 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[electricbee]

I wanna worship Thor too!!

[JohnnyCancer]

Those born again types are usually pretty out there with their faith.

[DSCrankshaw]

Haley has an interesting interpretation of the tenets of Thor-worship.

Knowing this comic, she might not be that far off.

[Manicotti]

That was the best about-faced cover story and delivery ever. "I hate grooming!" is absolute gold. I haven't seen Durkon look this theologically indignant since Banjo became the god of the orcs rather than Thor.

[hamishspence]

This one definitely got a chuckle out of me.

[Draconi Redfir]

instant conversions! for whenever you need an excuse to change the topic.

[dmuzzy]

So what do you think Malak eats? Perhaps some variant of Soylent Green?

[hewhosaysfish]

Is anyone else wondering about Malak's eating habits?

Random speculation:
He's a vampire!

[maxon]

Hammertime!

[olthar]

Durkon should be happy. Haley's last religion was worshiping Banjo. She also seems to know all the important parts of his religion. Overall, this is a big step up for her religiously.

[Forever Curious]

Is anyone else wondering about Malak's eating habits?

Random speculation:
He's a vampire!

I was thinking the same thing, actually. He is a rather pale fellow.

If not that, then...
Probably some other form of intelligent undead.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Well, I suppose that's the basics of it. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Great comic giant, I love how even Durkon has to admit that Haley is telling the truth about being converted to Thor-ism (?)

Also this has to be the best punchline by Durkon so far

:Malack:As a cleric it is always nice when you get to see the impact you make on your flock"
:durkon: "Aye, an' I'm considerin' makin¡ a more hammer-shaped one presently"

Two words P.U.R.E W.I.N

[Trickywiggy]

Time to troll back through the last couple comics and see if Malak has been outside.

[SPoD]

I was thinking the same thing, actually. He is a rather pale fellow.

If not that, then...
Probably some other form of intelligent undead.

His speech balloons are the wrong color. All undead in the comic have black balloons with white text, to the point where Xykon's balloons change color when he becomes a lich. Malack has white balloons. Therefore, he is not undead.

He probably has a Constitution of 4 or something as a result of being albino. Raistlin had the same deal with the special diet, don't forget.

[Draz74]

Also this has to be the best punchline by Durkon so far

Hmmm, I'm not so sure. He's had a few other golden ones ...

:durkon: Love is an Epic-level challenge. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html)

[TheBlackShadow]

His speech balloons are the wrong color. All undead in the comic have black balloons with white text, to the point where Xykon's balloons change color when he becomes a lich. Malack has white balloons. Therefore, he is not undead.

He probably has a Constitution of 4 or something as a result of being albino. Raistlin had the same deal with the special diet, don't forget.

Then maybe he's a cannibal?

[wzeller]

As Lawful as Durkon is, I'll look forward to seeing him trying to require Haley to maintain her new faith. Should be good for some laughs.

[sihnfahl]

Time to troll back through the last couple comics and see if Malak has been outside.
No need (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html).
Note the archways leading to a lovely view of the sun...

[Gwynfrid]

Yea, let's all worship Thor !

Seriously, Haley, that was fantastic as a joke, but as a cover it's pretty thin. I'd be really surprised if Tarquin falls for it. Plus, Durkon and Elan are bound to drop more hints, in case the ones they gave weren't enough. Anyway, keep the party going !

[SPoD]

Then maybe he's a cannibal?

Now see that's very possible. He might even just eat humans, which wouldn't technically make him a cannibal at all.

[Adventurer]

Watch out D&D world... after the trees that attack dwarves, now we have killer kangaroos with knives:smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

LOL...
Sooner or later Elan will reveal something that he "doesn't know" and the cover will be blown.

[Bongos]

Ah this can only end poorly. And I do not think Thor will be pleased either.

[silvadel]

I dont see any issue with her being a worshipper of thor. I mean she is going with elan which probably makes her a good thief. So that part of the alignment checks out. Durkon is the abberition when it comes to being LAWFUL and a thor cleric.

I could certainly see Haley as a Thor follower. Dwarves and humans be different in their worshipping style anyway.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure. He's had a few other golden ones ...

:durkon: Love is an Epic-level challenge. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html)

Didn't remember about that one... maybe it is time to do an archive treck.

And while it is good, I much prefer Roys line on that particular comic

[Yendor]

No! What would Banjo think?

[RndmNumGen]

Technically, it's not lying. Just like when the Order was in Azure City's prisons.

:smallwink:

[Valifor]

gotta love technical truths like that :smallbiggrin:

on Malack though, i wouldn't be that surprised if he was secretly an undead of some type. he IS a cleric of a god of death.

[otakuryoga]

BEE-YOO-TEE-FULL

love durkon in the final panel

[Lupusater]

Random thought: judging from Tarquin's reaction at the bardic lore excuse, we now know almost for sure that he's not a bard.

[Querzis]

Is anyone else wondering about Malak's eating habits?

Random speculation:
He's a vampire!


I was thinking the same thing, actually. He is a rather pale fellow.

If not that, then...
Probably some other form of intelligent undead.

Thats pretty much impossible, not just because as it was already pointed out, Malack doesnt have black speech bubbles but also because hes a cleric of the god of death. Undeath is a blasphemy for all the gods of death, Nergal would destroy undead, not give them power.

Anyway, Durkon is getting in the spotlight again, its awesome. The little guy might usually be quiet but I always love the punchlines he does.

[Gray Mage]

gotta love technical truths like that :smallbiggrin:

on Malack though, i wouldn't be that surprised if he was secretly an undead of some type. he IS a cleric of a god of death.

I would. I don't think that a god of death would be very pleased if one of his servents cheated and avoided what you represent, you know?

Edit:Swordsage'd

[JustIgnoreMe]

Is anyone else wondering about Malak's eating habits?

Random speculation:
He's a vampire!

That was my first thought... and then when I saw everyone pointing out the holes, I suddenly remembered the TV show, V. The original, not the remake. I bet Malak needs to eat his food... alive.

[Martok]

Funny as Durkon's line in the last panel is, I like Haley's even more....

"I hate trees! And grooming!" :smallbiggrin:

[Demonicbunny]

gotta love technical truths like that :smallbiggrin:

on Malack though, i wouldn't be that surprised if he was secretly an undead of some type. he IS a cleric of a god of death.

Although the death gods that aren't too keen on undead are about as many as those who are. And it's not a straight "neutrals death gods hate undead, evil encourage them" deal either.

After all, becoming undead is a way of cheating death.

[Raz_Fox]

The last panel is probably the funniest OOTS panel I have read in a while now. This will certainly lead to Hilarity doing what it usually does: Ensuing.

[Valifor]

I would. I don't think that a god of death would be very pleased if one of his servents cheated and avoided what you represent, you know?


what are u talking about? sure, some gods of death hate undead (such as Kelemvor in Forgotten Realms), but others don't care about undead. heck, some even actively encourage it and/or reward their priests with undeath (such as Nerull in Greyhawk or Myrkul in Forgotten Realms), which would actually add to the chances that he's undead. All that's required is for Nergal to be like Nerull or Myrkul and actually like undead. Hell, it's even likely considering he's probably an evil god of death, which is the kind that would have an undead cleric.

Edit: Forgot to mention Jergal in Forgotten Realms before he stripped himself of power as a death deity who didn't care about undead. This doesnt prove Malack is undead, mind you, but it does show that him being a cleric of a death god does NOT exclude the possibility

[the Riddler]

"Impressive."

Couldn't help but hear this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VWDekbIaJE) voice when I read it :P

[JoeSkull]

Random thought: judging from Tarquin's reaction at the bardic lore excuse, we now know almost for sure that he's not a bard.

Tarquin taught Nale that "Bards are weak" when they first met.

Good comic Giant

[golentan]

Poor Durkon. Too trusting by half, but he's got a heart of gold. Or beer, I'm not sure which...

[FoE]

Haley better take it easy with all that praising of Thor.

[Gruffel]

*teehee*
Yay for Haley! And Praise Thor! (I actually just opened a nice bottle of beer cause of this strip) :D

Oh - and when will we be seeing Thog again!?!?! Moar Thog pwease!!!

[fretgod99]

+5 Shoe of Otherness. I appreciated that.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Hmm... The three things you don't talk about at dinner: Sex, Politics and Religion.

We got ourselves a Trifecta! :smallwink:

[DreadArchon]

+5 Shoe of Otherness. I appreciated that.
I did too! That, and, "They could have a knife in there, you don't know!"


What's up with Amun-Zora? Is she just bothered by Haley's exuberance?

Also, Xykon talks the way he does because he doesn't have lungs. (He actually mentions this somewhere, but I don't remember where, so I can't link it.) If Malack is a more intact undead, he may be able to speak normally.

Actually, in general, I suspect that anything finding a way to sound alive would have normal speech bubbles. I think the speech bubbles are an indicator of the timbre of the voice, rather than some sort of meta-information about creature type.

Edit: And it will amuse me if Haley actually engages in some genuine (albeit casual) Thor-worship later on.

[Scarlet Knight]

Time for "Rogues Gone Wild II"?

:smallredface:

[John Cribati]

I love it when character abuse loopholes.

[Elfin]

Now that was funny.

[Crisis21]

Poor Durkon. Too trusting by half, but he's got a heart of gold. Or beer, I'm not sure which...
It's a giant heart of gold that is filled with beer of course.

And once again, Haley proves that she can think faster on her feet than anyone.

What I find most interesting is how we end up in situations where two characters spout certain views, and in the first case one is right, but then much later in another case the other is right. And the only thing that has changed about the argument is the scenario.

I believe Durkon has gone off on Haley before about not trusting others (don't feel like trying to find the comic right now) and was right then. Now, however, Haley is right not to trust Tarquin or Malack. We don't know what their motives are, and them knowing more about the Order of the Stick at this time would only lead to [more] potential disaster later.

[King of Nowhere]

Is it just me, or Durkon developed such issues with lawfulness only recently? He didn't run to denounce lord shojo to the paladins, but now he's unwilling to lie to people that aren't exactly trustworthy.
Or maybe he really trusts them, which would be even stranger...

I wonder if they will be proven trustworty, that will be a nice twist to all the people expecting a betrayal of some sort.

[Crusher99333]

Random thought: judging from Tarquin's reaction at the bardic lore excuse, we now know almost for sure that he's not a bard.

remember, bards are underpowered
P. S. how do you quote something from a comic?

[Wiffleboy]

Time to troll back through the last couple comics and see if Malak has been outside.

719 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html) shows that he was outside..ish. Don't think he's a vamp

[Stmr5000]

Random thought: judging from Tarquin's reaction at the bardic lore excuse, we now know almost for sure that he's not a bard.

It could similarly be that he knows EXACTLY what a bard can do, and thinks that Elan rolling that well is a touch bit unlikely.

[Valifor]

Also, Xykon talks the way he does because he doesn't have lungs. (He actually mentions this somewhere, but I don't remember where, so I can't link it.) If Malack is a more intact undead, he may be able to speak normally.

Actually, in general, I suspect that anything finding a way to sound alive would have normal speech bubbles. I think the speech bubbles are an indicator of the timbre of the voice, rather than some sort of meta-information about creature type.


i agree with this. thank you.

[SnowballMan]

Hate to nitpick... no wait, I love to nitpick... but should Elan's sash be reversing itself like it does in panels 3 and 4?

[Crisis21]

Is it just me, or Durkon developed such issues with lawfulness only recently? He didn't run to denounce lord shojo to the paladins, but now he's unwilling to lie to people that aren't exactly trustworthy.
Or maybe he really trusts them, which would be even stranger...

I wonder if they will be proven trustworty, that will be a nice twist to all the people expecting a betrayal of some sort.

No, he didn't run to denounce Shojo. However, consider how lawful he is. He wasn't aware of Shojo's deception until Roy had already struck a deal. Part of the agreement was that the order could not let the paladins find out Shojo's deception. While this would not likely sit well with Durkon, he wouldn't shame himself by breaking an agreement and telling the paladins himself.

As far as Tarquin and Malack being trustworthy, well they are Lawful (at least Tarquin is) and can thus be trusted to keep their stated word. However, they are also Evil and you have to be very careful about what they aren't saying, as Gannji (the lizardfolk bounty hunter) found out.

[zimmerwald1915]

Sorry if this has been brought up before in another thread (I haven't been reading them all that thoroughly). But take a look at panel 3. Is it just me, or does Malack's robe flow out behind him, as if he didn't have legs?

[SoC175]

but also because hes a cleric of the god of death. Undeath is a blasphemy for all the gods of death, Nergal would destroy undead, not give them power. Actually in D&D the opposite is the norm. Few are the deities of death that actually oppose undead. Usual are the deities of death whose clerics, after all funeral guest have left, rob the graves they just blessed to create more undead minions.

[AsteriskAmp]

I think getting drunk is not the best way to keep secrets...

[Crisis21]

I think getting drunk is not the best way to keep secrets...

I'm pretty sure Haley has dealt with being drunk and deceptive before. It's the kind of thing you have to deal with at some point when you're a Rogue.

[Lemur Bear]

Whatever penalty being drunk has on bluff checks is probably negligible compared to her base bluff ranks.


Sorry if this has been brought up before in another thread (I haven't been reading them all that thoroughly). But take a look at panel 3. Is it just me, or does Malack's robe flow out behind him, as if he didn't have legs?

I was also wondering that too. I haven't looked through past comics yet, but it makes it look like he's a yuan-ti rather than a lizardfolk? Do we have any evidence that he isn't yuan-ti?

[Bale Fire]

I think there's a mistake in panel five, Haley says "And I don't trust those two extra." When I belive the last word should be "either"

Sorry if that's been brought up, just mentioning it :smallwink:

[zoltansonojo]

Is malack a vampire?

[Gopher]

I think there's a mistake in panel five, Haley says "And I don't trust those two extra." When I belive the last word should be "either"

Sorry if that's been brought up, just mentioning it :smallwink:

It might not be grammatically correct, but I think it was a response to Durkon pointing out that she doesn't trust anyone. She was saying that she feels additional, or 'extra', distrust of those two, above and beyond what she feels for everyone.

But you're right, it's kind of an awkward sentence.

[Czarzhan]

Is malack a vampire?

That's where I went.

[Gruffel]

That's where I went.


If he was - he had to be a frakking "Glow in the sun" Twilight - Vampire :smalleek::smallfurious::smallfrown::smallfurious: :smallfurious:

[Blaznak]

I enjoyed the strip, but two things in particular:

1) Haley not trusting marsupials
2) Durkon thinking about making hammer shaped impression on his flock.

Excellent! :) :) :)

[DreadArchon]

I was also wondering that too. I haven't looked through past comics yet, but it makes it look like he's a yuan-ti rather than a lizardfolk? Do we have any evidence that he isn't yuan-ti?
I have also wondered about Malack's flowing robe, but I'm rather thick about plot twists, so I never stopped to question it beyond the stray feeling of unease. :smallredface:

[Darakonis]

I laughed out loud at Haley and her dialogue in the last panel. Awesome.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Hardcore]

Yes, the last panel also made me laugh and declare: "Praise Thor!"

[Lemur Bear]

On the note of speech bubbles, Tsukiko's undead also have black speech bubbles. I am not positive, but I think they are wights and with further speculation, they have lungs. I am fairly certain that it's just an undead thing to speak in black bubbles with white text. Furthermore, when Roy was a ghost, he spoke in a dark blue bubble and I forget his girlfriend's name, but she spoke in a light blue text. I am pretty sure that's an extraplanar thing.

I won't deny that additionally the bubbles represent tone and pitch (pointy bubbles demonstrating frustration and such), but I think the color scheme represents something deeper.

I don't think he's undead purely on the speech bubble thing, but he does drink tea. I think he's just white from being albino as per the reddish-pink eyes. What one can hope wholeheartedly is that he doesn't eat cats. Mr. Scruffy doesn't deserve that.

[AgentofOdd]

Wonder what minor role Vaarsuvius will be playing in this party.

[Squeejee]

Sorry if this has been brought up before in another thread (I haven't been reading them all that thoroughly). But take a look at panel 3. Is it just me, or does Malack's robe flow out behind him, as if he didn't have legs?

A quick archive troll later, and I don't see anything except his tail - however, you can't always see his tail poking out from behind his robes, so I don't think he is a Yuan-Ti.

It could simply be he has an ability of some sort that lets him fly, so he does it all the time instead of walking.

[dmuzzy]

Regarding Malak's eating habits, perhaps he read "A Modest Proposal" and took it to heart.

[Boogastreehouse]

Sigh.

I like Durkon, I really do, but lately he just keeps reminding me of the kind of D&D player who would take a contrary position to anything the party was trying to do and call it "role playing."

Everyone's preparing an ambush so we can get the upper hand against a really tough villain? That goes against my code of honor, so instead of figuring out a way to work within the situation, I'm going to take it on myself to mess things up for everyone else.

Everyone else in the party is good? Well I'm evil and I'm going to blatantly commit unspeakable acts to that harmless NPC over there, and all you good guys are going to have to deal with the authorities when they come after me with pitchforks. Oh, and I stole the wizard's ring of deflection.

Or in this case: Do the sneaky characters want to bluff their way into a place? Too bad! I just remembered my code against lying! The difficulties presented by your enemies are nothing compared to the difficulties that I, your friend, have planned for you.

I understand that Durkon would have a code against lying, but to keep from ruining the fun for the rest of the players, if this was a real game, he would have had to come to some kind of accord with the rogue and the bard by now.

I actually kind of like that it's reminding me of real people I've gamed with, but it's also reminding me of how frustrating those people are.

Seriously, right now I think he's being as difficult and obstinate as Belkar, but we already have a Belkar.

...at least for a little while longer...

[Vulkan]

That's raciest my father is a dwarf cleric of Thor.

[Boogastreehouse]

That's raciest my father is a dwarf cleric of Thor.

Uh oh, I think I see the new "morally justified." This going to lead to trouble...

[Valifor]

Sigh.

I like Durkon, I really do, but lately he just keeps reminding me of the kind of D&D player who would take a contrary position to anything the party was trying to do and call it "role playing."

Everyone's preparing an ambush so we can get the upper hand against a really tough villain? That goes against my code of honor, so instead of figuring out a way to work within the situation, I'm going to take it on myself to mess things up for everyone else.

Everyone else in the party is good? Well I'm evil and I'm going to blatantly commit unspeakable acts to that harmless NPC over there, and all you good guys are going to have to deal with the authorities when they come after me with pitchforks. Oh, and I stole the wizard's ring of deflection.

Or in this case: Do the sneaky characters want to bluff their way into a place? Too bad! I just remembered my code against lying! The difficulties presented by your enemies are nothing compared to the difficulties that I, your friend, have planned for you.

I understand that Durkon would have a code against lying, but to keep from ruining the fun for the rest of the players, if this was a real game, he would have had to come to some kind of accord with the rogue and the bard by now.

I actually kind of like that it's reminding me of real people I've gamed with, but it's also reminding me of how frustrating those people are.

Seriously, right now I think he's being as difficult and obstinate as Belkar, but we already have a Belkar.

...at least for a little while longer...

um...dude, isn't that kind of the point? if these were played by people, then that person would choose to play a character like Durkon with his code against lying and would roleplay it. nothing wrong with that, you have to try and play around it like Haley does. it's not trying to screw everything up and calling it roleplaying, its actually roleplaying the character you made. not everything an adventuring party does is gonna be agreeable with all party members.

but much more importantly, Durkon ISN'T controlled by a real life person. he's a character, meant to have his own realistic personality. and there are some people who would be lawful and refuse to lie to somebody who hasn't done anything personally wrong to him and has been following the law to the best of his (Durkon's) knowledge.

[Aenghus]

Also, while Durkon has seen and appreciated the Lawful side of the Empire of Blood, he by happenstance/plot device hasn't really seen the dark side of the Empire yet. i do get the impression he is nostalgic for regimented Dwarven society which leads him to be too trusting of regimented authority. He by preference adheres to rules and regulations which means he doesn't get into so much trouble and suffer the overly harsh law enforcement of the regime.

It will be interesting how he reacts when the big reveal happens (and Elan too for that matter).

And who will be Spartacus?

[Xorbon]

+5 Shoe of Otherness. I appreciated that.

I don't get that reference. Nothing obvious from a quick Google search either. Help?

As for other matters, I love how quick-on-her-feet Haley was to cover for both Elan and Durkon. I admit I snickered at the "Uh...bardic lore." line. :smallsmile:

[Kish]

I think there's a mistake in panel five, Haley says "And I don't trust those two extra." When I belive the last word should be "either"
She's acknowledging that she doesn't trust anyone, but saying she has extra distrust for Tarquin and Malack.

[Boogastreehouse]

um...dude, isn't that kind of the point? if these were played by people, then that person would choose to play a character like Durkon with his code against lying and would roleplay it. nothing wrong with that, you have to try and play around it like Haley does. it's not trying to screw everything up and calling it roleplaying, its actually roleplaying the character you made. not everything an adventuring party does is gonna be agreeable with all party members.

but much more importantly, Durkon ISN'T controlled by a real life person. he's a character, meant to have his own realistic personality. and there are some people who would be lawful and refuse to lie to somebody who hasn't done anything personally wrong to him and has been following the law to the best of his (Durkon's) knowledge.


So far his lawful tendencies in this story-arc have left two teammates languishing in an evil jail and two more desperately scrambling to maintain their cover. I realize that Roy covers the not-lawful-stupid aspect of being lawful good, but the only time Durkon gets any development at all seems to be when he's being a lawful pain in everyone else's butt (butts? Should that be plural?)

And as I said, that's Belkar's job.

[sihnfahl]

I don't get that reference. Nothing obvious from a quick Google search either. Help?
She's waiting for the other shoe to drop. Namely, when T + M betray them.

[Manicotti]

I don't get that reference. Nothing obvious from a quick Google search either. Help?

As for other matters, I love how quick-on-her-feet Haley was to cover for both Elan and Durkon. I admit I snickered at the "Uh...bardic lore." line. :smallsmile:

"When the other shoe drops" is a phrase referring to a related event that is naturally expected to follow the announcements/clues/foreshadowing already put in place.

[Kish]

So far his lawful tendencies in this story-arc have left two teammates languishing in an evil jail and two more desperately scrambling to maintain their cover. I realize that Roy covers the not-lawful-stupid aspect of being lawful good, but the only time Durkon gets any development at all seems to be when he's being a lawful pain in everyone else's butt (butts? Should that be plural?)

And as I said, that's Belkar's job.
Certainly an actual group with players would likely all act as though the campaign goal was important enough to compete with roleplaying.

...but, there's not a group of players. The campaign goal is primarily Roy's bag, and nothing is more important to any of the characters than "Being Me."

[Alex Warlorn]

Is anyone else wondering about Malak's eating habits?

Random speculation:
He's a vampire!

Kinda a pity really. In spite of being a divine spell caster for hire for the thug with an army of the week, he's really been shown to be reasonable and understanding towards his fellow proxy of the gods.

Speaking of such: I wonder if our little thief realizes the full weight of what she just said.

It was said in the old D&D 1E Advanced DMG that flip flopping on being part of a deity's religion is NOT a smart move! While the gods in the D&D verse show open tolerance of the devoted of other faiths as long as they don't direct oppose their own philosophy, they show little tolerance for those who declare themselves followers of a god then drop the subject when it's convenient. (Sorry, I don't remember the page.)

That being said, Harley opening telling a cleric of Thor that she's not lying and she HAS converted just that moment, and then making an open display of a stereotype whitewash of Thor creeds, this is likely to get Thor's attention.

[Xorbon]

She's waiting for the other shoe to drop. Namely, when T + M betray them.

Oh, I get it now. I've heard of that phrase, I just didn't get the use of the word "otherness". So, it comes from the fact that D&D tends to name many of it's magic items like "Hat of Blahblahness" or "Socks of Somethingelseness".

Thanks

[Klytus]

That was my first thought... and then when I saw everyone pointing out the holes, I suddenly remembered the TV show, V. The original, not the remake. I bet Malak needs to eat his food... alive.

That was my thought, too.

[elonin]

My guess is that Haley will get the party burned for being caught in one or more lies and that Elan's dad has a sense motive check, since Nale took after him. Not as though Haley's bluff check was all that good and Durkon didn't help matters either. That reminds me there was a comment about Durkon not being lawful. There is lawful then there is dwarf (as in ultra lawful). While he wasn't lawful enough to have to stay with his people he is still pretty deep in the lawful category. If anyone has doubts about this he told Roy that he'd help Miko if the party turned against her.

Don't know about lizard men but reptiles in real life prefer living food (other than the vegetarians). Also guessing that Durkon will be surprised about something to do with the lizards worship.

[StClair]

Praise Thor!

(and whoever compared Tarquin's "Impressive" to Vader's - oh yeah. The refs, and the joy, just keep on coming. :smallsmile: )

[AdamSmasher]

Malak can't be undead. His speech bubbles aren't color inverted!

C'mon.

Pay attention.

[RndmNumGen]

Malak can't be undead. His speech bubbles aren't color inverted!

C'mon.

Pay attention.

You don't need inverted speech bubbles to be undead.

[thepsyker]

That being said, Harley opening telling a cleric of Thor that she's not lying and she HAS converted just that moment, and then making an open display of a stereotype whitewash of Thor creeds, this is likely to get Thor's attention.It might get his attention but so long as they are on the western continent and the territory of the western gods he won't be able to do anything about it. And we all know how he likes to drink so he'll probably have forgotten by the time they get back.:smallwink:

[The Pilgrim]

So, Malack is gonna be the kind of guy who drinks human blood to treat his anemia?

[Acero]

Well, Marsupials are pretty sneaky with those pouches and whatnot.

[derfenrirwolv]

re the marsupial assassins

So which deities thought up the australia themed continent? (or is Haley worried about possums?)

[delguidance]

Woo! Praise Thor. All glory to the hypno-Thor.

[Morgan Wick]

I hope Durkon just goes over Haley's head and reveals the truth (or at least a partial truth) to either Tarquin or Malack - they already know Vaarsuvius is associated with them, after all.

[Darthteej]

It might get his attention but so long as they are on the western continent and the territory of the western gods he won't be able to do anything about it. And we all know how he likes to drink so he'll probably have forgotten by the time they get back.:smallwink:

Reread SoD, clerics and worshipers are considered official divine property, and Haley might have blundered right into that loophole.

And since no one else has: BEER FOR THE BEER GOD! HAMMERS FOR THE HAMMER THRONE!

[Poppy Appletree]

And since no one else has: HAMMERS FOR THE HAMMER GOD! BEER FOR THE BEER THRONE!

That would be the other way round, surely? :smallconfused:

[Nimrod's Son]

Malak can't be undead. His speech bubbles aren't color inverted!

C'mon.

Pay attention.
Well, by that logic Sabine can't be a fiend.

[Goosefeather]

they already know Vaarsuvius is associated with them, after all.

I don't understand what you are trying to imply by this - I can't see how it has any relevance to the current situation.

More pertinently, Durkon seems to be interpreting 'Lawful Good' as 'technically obeys the letter of the law', rather than the spirit of the law - I don't really know much D&D but surely trying to circumvent the law with a technicality is more Neutral than Lawful?

[Gift Jeraff]

"Impressive."

Couldn't help but hear this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VWDekbIaJE) voice when I read it :P
Is there any other way to hear it?


Well, by that logic Sabine can't be a fiend.
This whole time through the thread I was thinking that exact thing. However, my reasoning for Sabine having normal speech balloons despite being extraplanar: Succubi probably have the ability to change their voices to match average humanoids (for obvious reason), and she keeps it even when she shows her true form because Nale is so used to it, and it eventually grew on her, too. Or maybe all succubi have normal speech patterns. Dunno, I'm tired.

[Nimrod's Son]

I think it's much more to do with the fact that giving Sabine differently-coloured speech bubbles would have tipped her hand too soon, or at least encouraged unwanted speculation on her true nature.

Therefore, IF Rich decides that giving Malack a surprise reveal as a vampire is dramatically appropriate, he would hide it by giving him regularly-coloured speech bubbles.

I think it's probably more likely that he's not undead at all though. (But I'd much sooner dismiss that possibility through textual evidence than art clues.)

[Goosefeather]

However, my reasoning for Sabine having normal speech balloons despite being extraplanar: Succubi probably have the ability to change their voices to match average humanoids (for obvious reason), and she keeps it even when she shows her true form because Nale is so used to it, and it eventually grew on her, too. Or maybe all succubi have normal speech patterns. Dunno, I'm tired.

I think it's mainly due to the character's narrative role. Sabine's speech bubbles needed to be normal so that her eventual unmasking would actually be a surprise. Unless the revealing of Malack's true status turns out to be of a similar level of narrative importance, I doubt Rich would go to that much effort to portray him as disguising his voice.

Though the 'special diet' does seem to be a set-up for something.

Maybe Malack thrives on a diet of slaves and defeated gladiators...

EDIT - ninja'd about the role-revealment issue...

[rewinn]

Hate to nitpick... no wait, I love to nitpick... but should Elan's sash be reversing itself like it does in panels 3 and 4?
:elan:It's a Baldric of Truth Detection. When I tell the truth it hangs from one shoulder; when I lie, it hangs from the other!

[Morgan Wick]

I don't understand what you are trying to imply by this - I can't see how it has any relevance to the current situation.

If Elan and Haley know an elf wizard, is it that much more of a stretch to believe they know a dwarf cleric? Besides which, Tarquin already knows that Elan is an adventurer and Elan and Haley are on a "quest", and probably knows about the human fighter and halfling ranger who were arrested after attacking the bounty hunters who brought them in, and Malack already knows Durkon is an adventurer who was trying to find information about some prisoners. I bet they'll probably put two and two together. In fact, wouldn't it be funny if Haley's secrecy over Durkon made Tarquin suspicious when he was going to be completely accepting of and open to them, thus actually making things worse with the rest of the OOTS lecturing Haley about the value of openness?

[brionl]

That would be the other way round, surely? :smallconfused:

I think the Beer Throne would be rather soggy, and tend to fall apart.

[Kish]

More pertinently, Durkon seems to be interpreting 'Lawful Good' as 'technically obeys the letter of the law', rather than the spirit of the law - I don't really know much D&D but surely trying to circumvent the law with a technicality is more Neutral than Lawful?
"Lawful" means "Ordered," not "Obeys the law."

[Conuly]

Everyone else in the party is good? Well I'm evil and I'm going to blatantly commit unspeakable acts to that harmless NPC over there, and all you good guys are going to have to deal with the authorities when they come after me with pitchforks. Oh, and I stole the wizard's ring of deflection.

That's actually Belkar.


Or in this case: Do the sneaky characters want to bluff their way into a place? Too bad! I just remembered my code against lying! The difficulties presented by your enemies are nothing compared to the difficulties that I, your friend, have planned for you.

That's just it. From Durkon's point of view, these people AREN'T his enemies. Tarquin is Elan's father. Malak is a guy who had a pleasant conversation with him. There's no reason for Durkon to believe that either of them would really cause problems with reuniting the Order and helping them, in a small way, to save the world.

He can't trust Haley's judgment because, as Durkon pointed out - Haley doesn't trust ANYbody. She lies as a matter of course, to everybody, all the time, for no reason whatsoever. Haley's opinion on whom to trust is worthless.


I understand that Durkon would have a code against lying, but to keep from ruining the fun for the rest of the players, if this was a real game, he would have had to come to some kind of accord with the rogue and the bard by now.

This isn't a game. This is his life. He's not "ruining Haley's fun", he's trying to uphold his principles, which are important to him. And Haley's idea of trust and secrets makes about as much sense to him as HIS ideas of trees does to her.

The girl doesn't even trust marsupials. They might have knives, after all. She's sneaking around to "stay safe", but Durkon's clearly left wondering if THIS is actually the issue he should be betraying his principles for. Lying to two people who have been nothing but friendly and helpful, one of whom is RELATED to a team member? It takes a special sort of paranoid to think this is not just a good idea, but a necessary course of action.


"Lawful" means "Ordered," not "Obeys the law."

No reason you can't do both, though. When HAS Durkon broken the law during the comic?

[the_tick_rules]

Oh Haley is going to work that Thor angle so hard.

[Valifor]

So far his lawful tendencies in this story-arc have left two teammates languishing in an evil jail and two more desperately scrambling to maintain their cover. I realize that Roy covers the not-lawful-stupid aspect of being lawful good, but the only time Durkon gets any development at all seems to be when he's being a lawful pain in everyone else's butt (butts? Should that be plural?)

And as I said, that's Belkar's job.

and surely Durkon knows that Belkar has that role, and would never do anything to go against the party because of that, even when it fits his personality perfectly, right? that's rediculous. he isn't a player using a made character, he is a separate being in his own right. he has his own motivations. he doesn't care about "not being a pain" because that's Belkar's job, he cares about what he cares about as a person. chief among them being that he refuses to lie. that's it. nothing else to it.

Edit: ninja'd kinda. Conuly explained my point far better than me. thank you for that, was having a hard time figuring out how to word it.

[Goosefeather]

If Elan and Haley know an elf wizard, is it that much more of a stretch to believe they know a dwarf cleric? Besides which, Tarquin already knows that Elan is an adventurer and Elan and Haley are on a "quest", and probably knows about the human fighter and halfling ranger who were arrested after attacking the bounty hunters who brought them in, and Malack already knows Durkon is an adventurer who was trying to find information about some prisoners. I bet they'll probably put two and two together. In fact, wouldn't it be funny if Haley's secrecy over Durkon made Tarquin suspicious when he was going to be completely accepting of and open to them, thus actually making things worse with the rest of the OOTS lecturing Haley about the value of openness?

I'll be honest, I don't really see the connection.

How does knowing an elven wizard make you more likely to also know a dwarven cleric? At a stretch, Tarquin may be genre savvy enough to realise that a quest usually consists of a motley band of unlikely adventurers from varied backgrounds, but I still don't think that would really justify him leaping to the conclusion of 'OMG a wizard elf and a dwarf cleric, they have nothing in common therefore they MUST be working together'.

Also, Durkon, Elan and Haley all seem to be pulling off remarkably successful Bluff checks, and we still have no proof that Tarquin knows that Roy and Belkar are connected to Elan & company.



"Lawful" means "Ordered," not "Obeys the law."

Exactly my point - Durkon is being very 'technically correct' about the whole thing, and I know it's not without precedence (jail cells and Miko, for example), but it strikes me that Roy has a much better understanding of what is actually meant by 'lawful'.

This isn't a gripe with the comic or anything, it just seems like an interesting insight into Durkon's mentality :smallsmile:

[Scarlet Knight]

So, Malack is gonna be the kind of guy who drinks human blood to treat his anemia?

Team Malack! :smallbiggrin:

[Tobimaro]

Yes, the last panel also made me laugh and declare: "Praise Thor!"

I'd be praising Thor, but I do not have a dwarf's liver. :smallamused:

[Gift Jeraff]

Team Malack! :smallbiggrin:
Durkon is Team Malack and Elan is Team Tarquin.

Tarquin has to be a weresomething because we all know Girard is cleary part dragon and Haley has draconic/celestial/fiendish blood and all of them are related somehow, right?

[HonoreDB]

What a pragmatic religious epiphany. It reminds me of Pascal's Wager, except whether or not it ends up benefitting Haley has nothing to do with whether Thor exists or not (Thor exists).

[Ninjaman]

This is going to end wrong

[SmaugTheYounger]

I'd be praising Thor, but I do not have a dwarf's liver. :smallamused:

And neither has Haley. I can' remember her ever being exposed to higher quantities of beverage. Can't do her good.

[Faltenin]

Really nice comic :smallbiggrin:

I was going to comment on the fact that Tarquin's sash is worn the "Nale-way", a symbol of his evilness, but then as a previous poster mentioned, Elan's sash gets switched the following image (a mistake, although I'm willing to hear that Elan quickly changed it to be like his dad in the gap in between...)

I hope Tarquin's Dom Juan syndrome doesn't take control and make him try to abuse the "hot drunk chick" (we already know he fancies her), which would explain his cool look as he sips wine and the horrified look of the other woman he was seducing. Come on, Tarquin, it's your son's fiancée!!

[binyamin20]

So what do you think Malak eats? Perhaps some variant of Soylent Green?

Thanks dude, and right before breakfast...


Random thought: judging from Tarquin's reaction at the bardic lore excuse, we now know almost for sure that he's not a bard.

Like, duh!

[factotum]

As far as Durkon not lying is concerned, we already know that--he refused to outright lie in the Azure City jail, although he did twist his words so that what he said, while not a lie, didn't reveal the truth either! In this case I guess he simply didn't have any way to avoid the direct question of "Have you met before?", and so he told the truth.

And why there are various people complaining about a character sticking to his principles is beyond me. Considering the character that's been established for Durkon over the past 742 strips, if he *had* lied there without a good reason I would have considered it a problem, not the other way round.

[The Succubus]

Really nice comic :smallbiggrin:

I was going to comment on the fact that Tarquin's sash is worn the "Nale-way", a symbol of his evilness, but then as a previous poster mentioned, Elan's sash gets switched the following image (a mistake, although I'm willing to hear that Elan quickly changed it to be like his dad in the gap in between...)

I hope Tarquin's Dom Juan syndrome doesn't take control and make him try to abuse the "hot drunk chick" (we already know he fancies her), which would explain his cool look as he sips wine and the horrified look of the other woman he was seducing. Come on, Tarquin, it's your son's fiancée!!


I suspect that even now, in some dark forgotten corner of the interweb, where no living thing was meant to browse, a crack pairing is being written as we speak, involving Tarquin, Haley and Amun-Zora.

[Dr.Epic]

And the all powerful church of Thor gains a new member! Yay! Praise Chris Hemsworth Thor!

[willpell]

I should avoid reading this comic on my work computer. I just nearly choked keeping myself from spit-taking all over my keyboard; destroying company equipment when I'm supposed to be on the clock isn't a habit I should get into.

Hi-ho, hi-ho (said the duergars as they were force-marched back into the mines).

[Garwain]

I'd like to know what Tarquin is thinking when he sees Haley glugging beer like that.

[Delorges]

Was i the only one who's initial thought on why Malack doesn't eat at these partys is to avoid possible poison and the special diet ist just an excuse? The theories mentioned here didn't cross my mind till I read them, but I guess they make more sense.

[Deliverance]

I'd like to know what Tarquin is thinking when he sees Haley glugging beer like that.
He's probably thinking:

"So, she is a worshiper of Thor, who knows this dwarf cleric very well, yet when he was introduced and my boy Elan recognized him as a cleric of Thor he had never met before, she claimed that it was because of his bardic lore and gave no indication of recognizing the dwarf. While it is certainly possible that my boy never saw this dwarf before and he hasn't learned from her to identify the clerics of her religion (probably too busy washing the ape, heh, I know how young people are), I can't help thinking, magnificent bastard that I am, that there's something fishy going on.

Has she been hiding her religion from my boy? Is she a treacherous bitch? (Not that there's anything wrong if she is, my fourth wife was and oh, the memories). Does she has a previous 'history' with the dwarf? Or perhaps my boy is more like Nale at heart than he appears? Or perhaps, who knows, I know they are on a quest regarding Girard and he's no small-timer, so might they hiding be plot-critical information from me related to their quest in order to machinate a great denouement later on? That would be just my boy, chip of the old block! Ah, well, perhaps that's more dramatic than I could hope for, his efforts seems to be still little league, but a man can hope. I'd better have a chat with Malack about the dwarf, just in case."

[Nilan8888]

I understand that Durkon would have a code against lying, but to keep from ruining the fun for the rest of the players, if this was a real game, he would have had to come to some kind of accord with the rogue and the bard by now.

Er, why WOULD they have come into an accord by now?

Yes: they've been together a long time. But the amounts of time the situation has come up in a social context is extremely rare. There's simply no equivalent not only all through the dungeon of Durokan, but also all the way through the Starmetal quest until they meet Miko.

After meeting Miko in fact this issue DOES come up a number of times... and it's never really addressed or resolved, just gotten around, and it's only of issue up until around the end of the trial. Then they're all friends with the Paladins, more or less, and they tell few lies to them -- at least by that point when they do lie, Durkon seems to be left out of the loop.

Beyond that there's little in the way of social interaction for the party: the Oracle, fighting aganst Nale, the battle for Azure City, the exile arc and V's transformation... all of these, if they involved social interaction involved little of it, and lying didn't play much of a factor.

So... why WOULD they have reached an accord by now? They're adventurers. They spend very little of thier collective time together interacting with regular civlians, much less people they have to lie to.

[Gamall]

I think it's much more to do with the fact that giving Sabine differently-coloured speech bubbles would have tipped her hand too soon, or at least encouraged unwanted speculation on her true nature.

Therefore, IF Rich decides that giving Malack a surprise reveal as a vampire is dramatically appropriate, he would hide it by giving him regularly-coloured speech bubbles.
Hello,

concerning the speech-bubble / creature-type correlation, recall that when Celia transforms herself into a fiend to fool a bunch of hobbos, her speech bubbles turn red as well.

So Sabine's bubbles -- when in human form -- were not ordinary solely for storytelling purposes, but because shape-shifting abilities do disguise one's voice as well as one's appearance.

Thus Malak could very well be undead and use magic to pass himself off as living. I don't really believe this is the case, though.

[hamishspence]

Sabine has different coloured bubbles in fiend form too, though.

[Darkfyre99]

Exactly my point - Durkon is being very 'technically correct' about the whole thing, and I know it's not without precedence (jail cells and Miko, for example), but it strikes me that Roy has a much better understanding of what is actually meant by 'lawful'.

This isn't a gripe with the comic or anything, it just seems like an interesting insight into Durkon's mentality :smallsmile:

Except that according to his celestial review (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) we know that Roy "often veer[s] toward Chaos" when it comes to the execution of his goals. The only thing that kept him from being kicked into the Neutral Good afterlife was that he keeps trying to be lawful.

[The Pilgrim]

Maybe Malack thrives on a diet of slaves and defeated gladiators...

And that's why the OOTS will be unable to raise Belkar back from the dead... because Malack will eat his corpse.

Bonus points if they actually bring Belkar to Malack to be raised (because Durkon has not prepared the spell or whatever) and he thinks it's a present from his friend, and devours him

Remember, you first heard it here. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Was i the only one who's initial thought on why Malack doesn't eat at these partys is to avoid possible poison and the special diet ist just an excuse?

Why would he need to hide something like that? And how would eating in his quarters help avoid poison anyway? If poison gets into the food it's far more likely to be in the kitchens or even on the fields than it is to be some mysterious person dropping powder into the punch!

[mastermind]

For the speech bubble thing, undead only have them like that when you know they're undead.


Pilgrim: Very nice. I approve.

[Undead Prince]

on Malack though, i wouldn't be that surprised if he was secretly an undead of some type. he IS a cleric of a god of death.

God of Death married to the Queen of the Underworld.

Also, in D&D 3.5 Nergal is a DEAD God of the Underworld. His tomb - the Great Barrow - is crawling with undead created by the Untheric God-King Gilgeam to guard the slain deity (Lost Empires of Faerun).

The fact that Ereshkigal and Nergal feature prominently in the best version of the Necronomicon does not help.


secretly an undead

Why secretly? Maybe he's just not keen on revealing his nature to good-aligned guests. The Empire of Blood seems like the kind of state that would tolerate undead. And Tarquin certainly knows Malack long enough to become aware of his "habits".


No need (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html).
Note the archways leading to a lovely view of the sun...

We do not actually see Malack in the sun, only in the shade of the passageway with some sort of light outside (maybe the sun has already set and it is dusk). He's also wearing a cape and a hood, affording him personal shadow. And vampires are only vulnerable to direct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) sunlight.

Also, there are ways in D&D to reduce or temorarily eliminate the weakness to sunlight (e.g. the feat Endure Sunlight and the item Liquid Night from Libris Mortis). Rich could also use a similar homebrew effect.

Finally, there are spells that allow one to change into another creature (Polymorph), possess other creatures (Magic Jar), giving living creatures undead qualities (Veil of Undeath) and vice versa (Spark of Life). While none of these may fit exactly to the situation, there's always the possibility of a custom spell along those lines.

So, all in all, the fact that we see Malack inside a building with archways and some sort of light outside does not exclude the possibility of his vampirism.


His speech balloons are the wrong color. All undead in the comic have black balloons with white text, to the point where Xykon's balloons change color when he becomes a lich. Malack has white balloons. Therefore, he is not undead.

As the example with Sabine pointed out, the color of speech balloons (likely referring to special qualities of the voice) may be altered due to magic or special abilities. The succubus can shapeshift into a human, so naturally her speech balloons changed (using "Sabine" and "balloons" in one sentence begs for a pun, but I can't be bothered).

Also, V's speech balloons became black even though he was not undead - further proof that the color refers more to speech quality than race.

According to the 3.5 Monster Manual, "vampires appear as they did in life" and have a "human appearance" (referring to human vampires). They can be recognised by lack of shadow or reflection, but OoTS doesn't use character shadows much and we haven't seen any mirrors around Malack.

Insofar, we haven't seen any real vampires in OoTS. We've seen skeletons, zombies, wights, liches, death knights, huecuvas, and an Eye of Fear and Flame. All these undead are notably not human in appearance, and look like corpses in various stages of decay. Naturally, they sound like living corpses. A vampire would sound just like a living version of himself, with maybe an added edge of viciousness to his voice.

And, of course, you must have noted that Malack's speech balloons are twisted...


He probably has a Constitution of 4 or something as a result of being albino. Raistlin had the same deal with the special diet, don't forget.

That would have been a very lame and unworthy reason to introduce "special eating habits".

Furthermore, if Malack's food is nothing special and just dietary, why can't he eat it on the banquet? Why does he have to do it without anybody watching?


Was i the only one who's initial thought on why Malack doesn't eat at these partys is to avoid possible poison and the special diet ist just an excuse?

He could just as easily eat his own food at the party. No reason to always eat in secrecy. Also, he doesn't strike as being too fearful for his health - no bodyguards, no visible protective spells, no nervousness. Tarquin's his friend, the Empress treats him with respect (and is too straightforward to resort to poison anyway), what other enemies might he have? No one else seems to fear poisoning either.


Then maybe he's a cannibal?

Eating people is a well-known Lizardfolk habit. In AD&D, it was said that humans are their preferred food. In the 3.5 MM, this has been slightly revised: only some tribes eat human captives. But in a nation where Lizardfolk are a prominent race, the government is of an Evil alignment, and the Empress is a meat-gobbling Red Dragon, eating people just doesn't seem all that special. After all, they already kill people for fun (Arena), why not eat them.

Also, "cannibal" generally refers to someone eating his own species.


I haven't looked through past comics yet, but it makes it look like he's a yuan-ti rather than a lizardfolk? Do we have any evidence that he isn't yuan-ti?

Haley says Malack is "just an albino lizardfolk" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html). Since lizardfold and yuan-ti are entirely different races, she'd probably be able to tell the difference. Then, Durkon calls Malack a lizard, and Malack calls himself a lizard as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). So the issue's a no-brainer.

BTW, Elan think's he's a lizard god of death - the "lizard grim reaper". Foreshadowing?

____

One thing going somewhat against the vampire theory is Malack's apparently Lawful Neutral alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). But, all we have are his words (he may be a real villain despite lofty speeches about neutrality). And secondly, Rich may derogate from the "always evil" rule (as so many writers have done when touching upon vampires, even in D&D fiction).

____

Malack being a vampire would explain his "albinism", and would be the proper narrative "terrible secret" vs. Durkon. So far, the two seem to get along splendidly - just like Elan and Tarquin. Vampirism would be an excellent "+5 Shoe of Otherness" to drop.

[Undead Prince]

And that's why the OOTS will be unable to raise Belkar back from the dead... because Malack will eat his corpse.

Doesn't preclude them from using Resurrection. If it works on bodies destroyed by Disintegrate, it will work in this case even if everything is eaten. Bonus points for the toilet humour.

[squidbreath]

Well, he could just be diabetic...:smalltongue: Or some other equivalent magical disease for lizards

[Raz_Fox]

Insofar, we haven't seen any vampires in OoTS. We've seen skeletons, zombies, wights, liches, death knights, huecuvas, and an Eye of Fear and Flame. All these undead are notably not human in appearance, and look like corpses in various stages of decay. Naturally, they sound like living corpses. A vampire would sound just like a living version of himself, with maybe an added edge of viciousness to his voice.

OBJECTION! While the rest of your theory is quite interesting and well thought-out, I must point out here that we have, indeed, seen a vampire in the strip before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html).

[Undead Prince]

OBJECTION! While the rest of your theory is quite interesting and well thought-out, I must point out here that we have, indeed, seen a vampire in the strip before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html).

Thanks for pointing that one out, I absolutely did not remember it. But, first, it's just an imaginary vampire thought up by Haley. Second, this vampire does not attempt to pass off as a human. Third, it's a parody (like the "shadow" and the "mummy"), so not to be taken too seriously.

Although a good example, it still doesn't disprove that a real vampire who tries to hide his undead nature wouldn't be able to speak like a living person.

[Malek2991]

Hopefully Elan keeps his faith quiet...

Durkon already told Malack the story about the Orc tribe

[Obrysii]

I'm calling it. The albino lizardman is a vampire.

[Querzis]

I'm calling it. The albino lizardman is a vampire.

If by «I'm calling it» you mean «I'm saying what dozens of other people already said before me in this thread» then yes.

[JasonP]

Ye think marsupials be shady because they haf' a secret pouch.

They could have a knife in there, you don't know!

Best dialogue ever! First time I've laughed out loud at this comic in awhile. Great job, giant!

[BridgeCity]

On Malack possibly being an undead but not showing all the signs of it, you could always look to the tomb born (or tomb tainted, can't remember its actual name) feats. That way he has many characteristics in common with undead without actually being undead himself.

I'm not saying I believe that, but I wouldn't be upset if he was tomb born/tainted either.

And on the point that Durkon should have reached an accord or give in to the rogue/bard lying technique by now . . . clearly you don't expect Haley to have compromised her ideals by now, because no one seems to have voiced an objection to her trying to lie in this case, so why should Durkon have?

If we expect Durkon to let haley lie due to long exposure, in all fairness we should also expect Haley to let Durkon tell the truth.

[Swordpriest]

(Well, I wasn't going to post anything, but ....)

I see that Haley is pulling a Fredo Corleone here.

"This is Johnny Ola."

"We've never met!"

[A few minutes later] "I didn't believe it when Johnny Ola told me about this place."

She's lying in a situation where the various people involved in the lie have no way to rehearse it together first, which is a self-evident recipe for disaster. They're almost certain to get caught, quickly, and in an evil empire (and possibly a non-evil one), lying about knowing each other is going to look VERY suspicious. I wouldn't be surprised if the Order ended up being reunited in the gladiator pits.

In this, IMO, she's acting stupider than Elan usually does, because there's almost no chance of her gambit succeeding, and anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to see it. The heat must be affecting her or something. Yes, I agree Tarquin and Malack are untrustworthy, but even Haley should know you shouldn't tell a massive lie unless there's a fairly good chance it won't be seen through. Here, there's close to a 99% chance of failure, I'd say.

[Poppy Appletree]

(Well, I wasn't going to post anything, but ....)

I see that Haley is pulling a Fredo Corleone here.

"This is Johnny Ola."

"We've never met!"

[A few minutes later] "I didn't believe it when Johnny Ola told me about this place."

She's lying in a situation where the various people involved in the lie have no way to rehearse it together first, which is a self-evident recipe for disaster. They're almost certain to get caught, quickly, and in an evil empire (and possibly a non-evil one), lying about knowing each other is going to look VERY suspicious. I wouldn't be surprised if the Order ended up being reunited in the gladiator pits.

In this, IMO, she's acting stupider than Elan usually does, because there's almost no chance of her gambit succeeding, and anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to see it. The heat must be affecting her or something. Yes, I agree Tarquin and Malack are untrustworthy, but even Haley should know you shouldn't tell a massive lie unless there's a fairly good chance it won't be seen through. Here, there's close to a 99% chance of failure, I'd say.

This is the primary reason why, despite the humour presented, I did not particularly enjoy this strip. The other reason was because of the humour, as I felt it undermined what I felt what the excellent balance of plot and funny we'd been having, though I understand that other readers are more interested in a greater amount of humour in the comic.

[sihnfahl]

We do not actually see Malack in the sun, only in the shade of the passageway with some sort of light outside (maybe the sun has already set and it is dusk). He's also wearing a cape and a hood, affording him personal shadow. And vampires are only vulnerable to direct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) sunlight.
Except, in panel 4, it's already directly said that it's morning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0731.html).

Also, in the flashback to the fight with the Linear Guild, he doesn't seem to have used Dominate, or Children of the Night, or even Energy Drain.

[sirveaux]

First off, bonus points to Swordpriest for a Godfather reference. Were it in my power to bestow an Internet, you would surely have one.

Second, mark me down for the Lizgreaper being a yuan-ti who must eat live prey. (although the arguments that we've seen him in sunlight don't convince me)

And third, sorry if this has been mentioned, but "fe lizardfolks" in Panel 2 should likely be "fer lizardfolks," if I understand Durkon's accent properly. Which I'd like to think I do.

[Kish]

Haley's attitude toward truth isn't supposed to be well-reasoned and rational. :smalltongue:

[Saphy]

Awesome strip.

Hopefully Haley's lies won't dig them into deeper trouble. :P And hopefully Haley's suspicions aren't true!

The 'what-is-Malack' theories are interesting. He doesn't really seem like the undead type to me, though I haven't actually played D&D before. :smalltongue:

[Poppy Appletree]

The 'what-is-Malack' theories are interesting. He doesn't really seem like the undead type to me, though I haven't actually played D&D before. :smalltongue:

My theory: Just an albino lizardfolk, like Haley said. I would very much prefer it if Malack remained a long-term ally of the Order. I would be sad if he had to die. :smallfrown:

[Swordpriest]

Haley's attitude toward truth isn't supposed to be well-reasoned and rational. :smalltongue:

That's quite true.

But failure to recognize the overwhelming possibility of immediate detection is verging on insane, rather than just irrational. I mean, I have an irrational liking for cheddar cheese. That doesn't mean that I'd stick my hand into an open bear trap to get it, though -- unless I was insane, of course, when all bets are off, or if I was too dumb to figure it out. I didn't think Haley was totally insane or profoundly stupid -- more smart but neurotic -- so this scene is a bit jarring.

My personal humorous theory is that this is a first symptom of the Curse of Crystal, brought on by using the "poor dumb pickle-woman's" magical dagger. :smallwink:

[sockmonkey]

I suspect Haley is acting foolishly because she's panicking inside. As she sees it, the group is in terrible danger and so she's scrambling to try and cover everyone's ass because they aren't watching their own backs at all.

Add me to the "Malack is just an albino with odd eating habits" camp. Becoming a vampire makes you pale but it doesn't remove the pigment from your skin. The pigments in reptile skin make it pretty opaque so he really must be just an albino.

[ShippoWildheart]

Kangaroos with knives in their pouches! Now I have a reason to fear sleeping out in the open if I ever go to Australia.

[snikrept]

Malack gets more and more interesting.

If you had a secret that required you to eat something repugnant, why would you make a point of that in front of your guest? Seems like calling attention to the fact that you don't eat normal food would encourage suspicion, not relieve it. Especially since he's a bizarre color and has speech bubbles that suggest a horrible rasp.

I too, leapt to "he's a vampire" immediately. But we have seen him outside in that colonnaded walkway. IMO it would be absolutely awesome if the trope were inverted and he turned out to be a normal, low-CON lizardfolk.

Also - he possesses the rare NPC ability to detect that the PCs are talking to each other nearby! Not quite as good as Hinjo though, he couldn't determine the actual words.

[Scarlet Knight]

Not to mention the wombats! I mean, you keep looking overhead, scanning the skies, and they come up from amongst the underbrush and pull a wahaika from their pouch!

:smalleek:

[Undead Prince]

On Malack possibly being an undead but not showing all the signs of it, you could always look to the tomb born (or tomb tainted, can't remember its actual name) feats. That way he has many characteristics in common with undead without actually being undead himself.

That wouldn't explain his odd eating habits (which sparked this debate in the first place).


Except, in panel 4, it's already directly said that it's morning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0731.html).

Okay, so it might have been dawn. But still no direct sunlight is evident in that strip.


Also, in the flashback to the fight with the Linear Guild, he doesn't seem to have used Dominate, or Children of the Night, or even Energy Drain.

He's a high level priest, he's got spells to fight with. Besides, Dominate works only on humanoids (like Dominate Person), and Sabine is an Outsider; vampire's Energy Drain is a melee attack; and Children of the Night is fairly useless against a high-level party. And of course, using any of those would show Malack to be a vampire, instead of a dramatic reveal when the time is right.


My theory: Just an albino lizardfolk, like Haley said. I would very much prefer it if Malack remained a long-term ally of the Order. I would be sad if he had to die. :smallfrown:

Just because he's undead doesn't mean he can't be an ally. Tarquin is Lawful Evil, and yet he has, in my book, good chances of becoming an ally of OoTS. Malack, if we believe his philosophy, is Lawful Neutral, so even if he is undead, he's still a more likely ally than Tarquin. And I think the comic would really win from a friendly undead character.

But, of course, this might all be wishful thinking. Too little evidence to point either way.

[pendell]

His speech balloons are the wrong color. All undead in the comic have black balloons with white text, to the point where Xykon's balloons change color when he becomes a lich. Malack has white balloons. Therefore, he is not undead.

He probably has a Constitution of 4 or something as a result of being albino. Raistlin had the same deal with the special diet, don't forget.

DAMMIT, SPOD! Fie on you, with your reason and common sense and logic! Can't you see this is a webcomic?

Y'know, you don't have to be right ALL the time. Could you maybe be wrong once in awhile so the rest of us don't have to feel so bad?

:)

ETA: Malack can't be a vampire. He doesn't sparkle in the sunlight.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[snikrept]

Also - Malack is known to have had children, who were killed by Nale. And Malack appears just as pale and sickly in the flashback fighting Nale. All of this seems odd if he were already an Undead at that time, unless he turned into one right after his kids got killed or something. Hmm... maybe Nale killed HIM too but he got raised as an undead to further serve his god...

[Valifor]

i don't remember any flashback of Malack fighting Nale that gave him any kind of background like having kids. the only one i remember was one panel long and just showed him fighting. he could have easily been undead then as well though. can somebody show me the link to the comic that says he has kids that were killed by Nale?

[sihnfahl]

can somebody show me the link to the comic that says he has kids that were killed by Nale?
Panel five. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html)

[Arrowstorm122]

well, i think its a bit, TO MUCH that they may not even know that Haley and Elan is in the same adventure group as Durkon :smalleek:
i still choose Banjo as my religion :smallamused: he gives cupcakes to people atleast.
Malack eating humans, gogo! :smallwink:

[Valifor]

Panel five. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html)

ah, thank you, i had completely forgotten about that. still, Nale could have killed them before Malack was undead, or the kids were half-undead (it IS possible), or Tarquin is lying to make Malack more sympathetic looking. though i will admit that the first two are a pretty extreme stretch.

[Lemur Bear]

What if in the next few strips Haley finds legitimate reasons to trust Tarquin and Malack. Like Tarquin kills assassins that were trying to sneak into Elan and Haley's room. Then Malack is found out to eat marsupials! That would definitely put Malack on Haley's good side right?

I don't think he eats marsupials. I think he just doesn't trust the empire with his food. It wouldn't surprise me if he is vegetarian (or for kicks, vegan) and just gathers his food himself or grows it. Could explain why he is so frail. His diet is meant to maintain his frail spellcaster body. He cannot eat meat, that would take away from the squishy spellcaster stereotype. He may have proficiency with all armors, but it's apparent that he doesn't use it.

[sockmonkey]

Nah, Haley would think Tarquin sent the asassins himself so he could make himself look trustworthy by stopping them.

[Yendor]

Was i the only one who's initial thought on why Malack doesn't eat at these partys is to avoid possible poison and the special diet ist just an excuse? The theories mentioned here didn't cross my mind till I read them, but I guess they make more sense.

Eating alone surely makes it easier for him to be poisoned, as his meal can be specifically targeted.

Or it would if he wasn't a cleric who can cast Neutralize Poison.

That said, I think it's exactly what he said: a special diet because of his health. He's not a vampire.

[Undead Prince]

I think he just doesn't trust the empire with his food.

Been over that already.


It wouldn't surprise me if he is vegetarian (or for kicks, vegan) and just gathers his food himself or grows it.

Why does he have to EAT it alone, though?


Could explain why he is so frail. His diet is meant to maintain his frail spellcaster body. He cannot eat meat, that would take away from the squishy spellcaster stereotype.

Hopefully, that was a joke. He's a cleric, they're anything but squishy.


He may have proficiency with all armors, but it's apparent that he doesn't use it.

One: we don't know what he wears under that robe.

Two: there are cleric variants without heavy armor proficiency - e.g. Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric).

Three: he might be some kind of a divine/arcane hybrid (Mystic Theurge, True Necromancer etc.).

[Undead Prince]

Eating alone surely makes it easier for him to be poisoned, as his meal can be specifically targeted.

Or it would if he wasn't a cleric who can cast Neutralize Poison.

Precisely.

The poisoning thing just doesn't add up. Malack doesn't have any overt enemies in the court, isn't anxious for his life, as a priest he has access to anti-poison magic, and nobody else at the banquet (notably Tarquin) seems to fear poison.


That said, I think it's exactly what he said: a special diet because of his health. He's not a vampire.

But why does he have to eat it in his room privately? Why doesn't he just order it delivered to the banquet?

Nah, Malack's explanation is too much like a cheap cop-out. The whole thing is too suspicious - it's basically "I don't drink... wine".

[Darth Hunterix]

C'mon guys... A man reptile eats alone and you are all swarming at him and yelling "Vampire! Vampire!"... Maybe he just eats a lot of garlick, onion and beans? Or he is ashamed of his table manners? Or maybe his religion demands some sort of fasting? Or he just doesn't like eating in crowded places? Or...

Ok, I give up. He is a bloodsucker.

[Undead Prince]

Also - Malack is known to have had children, who were killed by Nale. And Malack appears just as pale and sickly in the flashback fighting Nale. All of this seems odd if he were already an Undead at that time, unless he turned into one right after his kids got killed or something.

They may be referring to his vampire spawn. Tsukiko was very protective and motherly towards undead she created magically; a vampire has a strong natural bond with his spawn, so Malack could have genuine affection for his "children". After all, that is how vampires procreate. For example, see Dracula and his brides' attachment to their progeny in the movie Van Helsing.

[BridgeCity]

That wouldn't explain his odd eating habits (which sparked this debate in the first place).

Note that I didn't say it would. The eating habits sparked the debate, and then the debate moved into if he could be undead, given that he looks it but doesnt sound like it, as evidenced by his speech bubbles.

That is the point I was offering a perspective on.

[Yendor]

C'mon guys... A man reptile eats alone and you are all swarming at him and yelling "Vampire! Vampire!"...
And they think Haley's paranoid.

[Inkling]

This seems to promise a dire outcome...

[JoeSkull]

Kangaroos with knives in their pouches! Now I have a reason to fear sleeping out in the open if I ever go to Australia.

Thats your only reason for not wanting to sleep in the Australian wild??

[Valifor]

And they think Haley's paranoid.

Haley IS paranoid. those of us who think Malack might be a vampire (note: might be, i'm not entirely convinced myself) are merely observant and inquisitive :smallbiggrin:

[Lemur Bear]

Look at us, judging a reptile by his pigmentation...or lack there of. What are we, savage species?

Yeah, that joke was a stretched, I apologize.

[Nimrod's Son]

concerning the speech-bubble / creature-type correlation, recall that when Celia transforms herself into a fiend to fool a bunch of hobbos, her speech bubbles turn red as well.

So Sabine's bubbles -- when in human form -- were not ordinary solely for storytelling purposes, but because shape-shifting abilities do disguise one's voice as well as one's appearance.
As Hamish stated, Sabine's speech bubbles are ALWAYS the regular black-on-white. Every time we've seen her. So we can't use Celia' transformation as a basis for anything.

As I said, speech bubbles are no cast-iron indicator, and it's possible that Malack will turn out to be undead IF Rich thinks that is something worth storing up for a surprise - in much the same way that Malack could really be a shapeshifted Tarrasque IF Rich thinks that would be worth pulling on us.

It's not the way I'm betting though. :smallwink:


Also, V's speech balloons became black even though he was not undead - further proof that the color refers more to speech quality than race.
Undead have black speech bubbles with a white outline and white text. Black with a coloured outline and text is more usually indicative of fiends.


And, of course, you must have noted that Malack's speech balloons are twisted...
...just the same as Belkar's were when he was suffering from ill health, you may note.


And that's why the OOTS will be unable to raise Belkar back from the dead... because Malack will eat his corpse.
Just curious - is it possible to resurrect someone who's been eaten if you manage to get hold of a stool sample from the aggressor?

There must be something recognisable left in there, surely? :smallamused:

[Undead Prince]

Note that I didn't say it would. The eating habits sparked the debate, and then the debate moved into if he could be undead, given that he looks it but doesnt sound like it, as evidenced by his speech bubbles.

No, the undead thing came up in this thread because of Malack's eating habits. It was suggested he is a vampire.

White skin in itself has already been explained in the comic (albino). Alone, it doesn't work as evidence. But combined with the eating habits...

[sockmonkey]

If he were one, I think he would have a better excuse for not eating than a special diet. He could just wander off during the banquet and say he ate something when he comes back.

[factotum]

If he were one, I think he would have a better excuse for not eating than a special diet. He could just wander off during the banquet and say he ate something when he comes back.

And that's a good excuse? :smallconfused: Nobody is going to be the slightest bit puzzled why he wandered away from an official banquet, ate something elsewhere, and never ate a single bite while at the table?

[DougTheHead]

C'mon, people. It's babies. Malack eats human babies, as their underdeveloped bodies are just soft enough for his frail old teeth. Obviously it would be disturbing for most of the guests if he ate them in front of everyone. So he eats his babies in private.

Because Malack IS lawful evil. You have to know that, right? The number of times he's tried to squeeze out of defining himself of his god (not "necessarily" evil, in his own carefully chosen words) as Evil-aligned in front of a worshiper of a god he knows to be Good-aligned gives that away.

[pjackson]

Sigh.

I like Durkon, I really do, but lately he just keeps reminding me of the kind of D&D player who would take a contrary position to anything the party was trying to do and call it "role playing."

Everyone's preparing an ambush so we can get the upper hand against a really tough villain? That goes against my code of honor, so instead of figuring out a way to work within the situation, I'm going to take it on myself to mess things up for everyone else.

Everyone else in the party is good? Well I'm evil and I'm going to blatantly commit unspeakable acts to that harmless NPC over there, and all you good guys are going to have to deal with the authorities when they come after me with pitchforks. Oh, and I stole the wizard's ring of deflection.

Or in this case: Do the sneaky characters want to bluff their way into a place? Too bad! I just remembered my code against lying! The difficulties presented by your enemies are nothing compared to the difficulties that I, your friend, have planned for you.

I understand that Durkon would have a code against lying, but to keep from ruining the fun for the rest of the players, if this was a real game, he would have had to come to some kind of accord with the rogue and the bard by now.

I actually kind of like that it's reminding me of real people I've gamed with, but it's also reminding me of how frustrating those people are.

Seriously, right now I think he's being as difficult and obstinate as Belkar, but we already have a Belkar.

...at least for a little while longer...

Why are you blaming Durkon's supposed player when Haley's is doing pretty much the same thing?

Haley is lying on general principle, and effectively forcing the others to go along with her. Given that neither of the others have the skills to support the lie what she is doing is more likely to cause trouble than telling the truth would. She is the one causing difficulties in this situation - not Durkon.

There can be fun in dealing with the effects of such a conflict. I once played a neutral chracter with a background of having been trained as an assassin, but having fled the job for moral reasons. There was a paladin in the party (who joined after I did.) There was an evil army approaching the place we were definding, I felt I'd be useless in battle, but sneaking in to kill one the enemy commanders was more my style. So I had to try to persuade/trick the paladin into going along with my plan :D

Or a compromise could be sorted out, but that would require both sides to give something. There is fun in keeping to a strict moral code. Durkon's player should not have to sacrifice his fun for the sake of the others with nothing in return.

[BridgeCity]

No, the undead thing came up in this thread because of Malack's eating habits. It was suggested he is a vampire.

White skin in itself has already been explained in the comic (albino). Alone, it doesn't work as evidence. But combined with the eating habits...

Seriously, thats what I said. People talked about Malacks eating, then they talked about his eating and the possibility of him being undead, and then some people were just talking about him being undead and having different speech bubbles, which is what I was responding to. The last part. Your post just agrees with what I stated, so I don't see what you are trying to say here.

Also, a reason has been given in the comic, true, but that does not mean it is the real reason. If Malack were hiding the fact he is undead or tomb born, telling people he is albino would be a pretty good cover. I'm not saying he is, I'm just saying there are other theories that can be considered.

[Lupusater]

White skin in itself has already been explained in the comic (albino). Alone, it doesn't work as evidence. But combined with the eating habits...
The color of Malack's skin isn't in any way evidence of his presumed status as an undead. He is a reptile, so his skin is covered with scales whose color isn't influenced by the presence of an active bloodstream. The only and simplest explanation for his coloration is, as already stated in comic, albinism. As for his diet, he is a cleric of a god of death and distruction. He may have... messy or disturbing eating rituals or he hasn't lied at Durkon and his health is really frail.

[Indalecio]

That was my first thought... and then when I saw everyone pointing out the holes, I suddenly remembered the TV show, V. The original, not the remake. I bet Malak needs to eat his food... alive.


It might be just the opposite. Regular lizardfolk might eat their food alive, but because of his frail constitution, he might need to eat food thats been killed and cooked. This would be something that gross out other lizardfolk.

Its like if you had your dental surgery, and you couldn't eat solid food for the next several days, or something, except for Malack, its something he has to do continually.

[SmaugTheYounger]

The color of Malack's skin isn't in any way evidence of his presumed status as an undead. He is a reptile, so his skin is covered with scales whose color isn't influenced by the presence of an active bloodstream. The only and simplest explanation for his coloration is, as already stated in comic, albinism. As for his diet, he is a cleric of a god of death and distruction. He may have... messy or disturbing eating rituals or he hasn't lied at Durkon and his health is really frail.
Haley states in 718/10 that he's just an albino lizard. That does not have to mean she is right. Disturbing eating habits sounds just right, could still include vampirism. The eating human babies thing mentioned earlier has been played with before, though, in 549. And it feels a little bit too chaotic evil... but why not?

[sabremeister]

Edit: And it will amuse me if Haley actually engages in some genuine (albeit casual) Thor-worship later on.

That kinda makes it sound like ... she'll be giving her pet orangutan a bath, if you know what I mean

[StreetPizza]

I wouldn't be surprised if Haley was right. Sense Motive, after all, is a Rogue and not Cleric class skill. Mechanics notwithstanding, keeping the truth from Tarquin and Malack might prove to be an asset when it comes to rescuing Roy and Belkar.

[rman]

There was a paladin in the party (who joined after I did.) There was an evil army approaching the place we were definding, I felt I'd be useless in battle, but sneaking in to kill one the enemy commanders was more my style. So I had to try to persuade/trick the paladin into going along with my plan :D


What if we took a small attack force and found a strategic moment to attack an isolated group? Would that be ok?

Ok, sounds like the forming of a plan. Now the details.

Then The small attack force will be me. And the isolated group will be their commander when he heads out to the latrine.

What? I thought we had already agreed on the small attack force with a strategic strike. You can get smaller and you can't get more strategic.

[Maxios]

For a minute there, when I saw the title, I almost thought they converted to 4th edition. :smallsigh:

[sockmonkey]

And that's a good excuse? :smallconfused: Nobody is going to be the slightest bit puzzled why he wandered away from an official banquet, ate something elsewhere, and never ate a single bite while at the table?

I was thinking move around and mingle with various people so no one person is watching him the whole time and he can tell anyone who asks that he grabbed a bite while they were talking to someone else.
Granted I was thinking about the current situation where everyone is up and walking around while servants carry trays of stuff around. Seated at the table he would have to fall back on that old kid's trick of pushing the food around on his plate with his fork so it looks like he's eaten some.

[Schaffer1979]

At first I thought maybe Malack was a vampire would be a reasonable guess because of the use of blood with his tea. But then when I looked back, I saw bloodwart.

Closest thing I could find was Bloodwort which containts a sanguinarin (sp?), a toxin. Was pretty interesting reading. So, he drinks a tea which is made of an extract considered poisonous and which causes dropsy when ingested. All together a nasty plant to drink.

So, his diet includes poison.

[sihnfahl]

So, his diet includes poison.
Actually, in a low concentration, it used to be used as a medicine. It kind of encouraged things to move.

Higher doses made it an emetic.

Oh, yeah, and do I have to say 'cleric'?

[Poppy Appletree]

So, his diet includes poison.

Even if it is a poison to mammals, that doesn't mean it's a poison to a reptiles.

Besides which, I have some doubts that he would be sharing tea with Durkon if that were the case - giving your acquaintances poison, regardless of how weak, is not a great way to make friends. :smallwink:

[Lemur Bear]

Before anyone goes Team Malack on us, I would like to ask how Malack has a Macebook profile picture if vampires traditionally cannot be photographed. I don't actually understand why. I am assuming it has something to do with the whole no reflection and/or silver nitrate used in the processing of both. Still, he has a MB profile picture!

[Kish]

There's no indication that D&D vampires can't be photographed as far as I know. Largely because there generally aren't photographs in D&D...

...Although I doubt very much that Malack is a vampire.

[Nimrod's Son]

Still, he has a MB profile picture!
Maybe it's just a stick figure cartoon of him. :smallwink:

[Trixie]

I like Durkon, I really do, but lately he just keeps reminding me of the kind of D&D player who would take a contrary position to anything the party was trying to do and call it "role playing."

Really? I find that is Haley that is no team player and who is causing trouble, constantly.


Everyone's preparing an ambush so we can get the upper hand against a really tough villain? That goes against my code of honor, so instead of figuring out a way to work within the situation, I'm going to take it on myself to mess things up for everyone else.

My friend negotiated good agreement with evil and powerful organization? Geee, let's make sure I'll piss them off with random, pointless murder before I leave while tearing the agreement. It won't bite us in the ass later, surely.


Everyone else in the party is good? Well I'm evil and I'm going to blatantly commit unspeakable acts to that harmless NPC over there, and all you good guys are going to have to deal with the authorities when they come after me with pitchforks. Oh, and I stole the wizard's ring of deflection.

It's Haley who is doing the stealing and dragging the party into various messes.


Or in this case: Do the sneaky characters want to bluff their way into a place? Too bad! I just remembered my code against lying! The difficulties presented by your enemies are nothing compared to the difficulties that I, your friend, have planned for you.

Intelligent character almost solved a riddle given by NPC? I'll rudely push wizard out of the way, shoot the NPC, and threaten him with more violence if he didn't cough up the answer! Wait, why GM just changed my character to 'Chaotic Evil"? :smallamused:


I understand that Durkon would have a code against lying, but to keep from ruining the fun for the rest of the players, if this was a real game, he would have had to come to some kind of accord with the rogue and the bard by now.

It's Haley who has a code against telling the truth, and it didn't produced useful effects once. You'd think her lost voice and the whole golem incident would teach her something, but no, she still behaves like someone with Int <8.


I actually kind of like that it's reminding me of real people I've gamed with, but it's also reminding me of how frustrating those people are.

Ever player with stealing (even from the party), lying, murderous, evil thieves? Because the experience is about as bad as what Haley is doing, no, they actually hold back more then she did, in my experience.


Seriously, right now I think he's being as difficult and obstinate as Belkar, but we already have a Belkar.

In obstinateness, Durkon is as bad as Belkar, but Haley is far below them both combined.

[factotum]

My friend negotiated good agreement with evil and powerful organization? Geee, let's make sure I'll piss them off with random, pointless murder before I leave while tearing the agreement. It won't bite us in the ass later, surely.


It wasn't a RANDOM murder because Crystal made it quite clear (albeit in bonus strips in the printed book) that she was intending to kill Haley by any means available and make it look like an accident. OK, you can argue that it was pointless because they were planning to skip town anyway, but Haley at that stage didn't know that meant they'd be instantly teleporting to the far side of the world...

[sockmonkey]

The danger of Elan being 100% trusting of Tarquin is probably what's most on her mind. She's just displacing it onto Durkon since he's the second most goody-two-shoes after Elan and appears to be the second most naive in Haley's eyes.
(We know he's actually pretty wise and badass but he's not boastful or showy about it so it's easy to forget)

[hamishspence]

OK, you can argue that it was pointless because they were planning to skip town anyway, but Haley at that stage didn't know that meant they'd be instantly teleporting to the far side of the world...

She knew:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html

In this strip, V makes it clear that they are teleporting to the Western Continent.

[Undead Prince]

Before anyone goes Team Malack on us, I would like to ask how Malack has a Macebook profile picture if vampires traditionally cannot be photographed.

There is no rule in DnD about whether vampires can be photographed. And like you, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to be photographed. In any case, the "Macebook" is likely not a technological gimmick but a magical one (like the Eyebooks in Erfworld), so photography is not involved.

[Undead Prince]

Because Malack IS lawful evil. You have to know that, right? The number of times he's tried to squeeze out of defining himself of his god (not "necessarily" evil, in his own carefully chosen words) as Evil-aligned in front of a worshiper of a god he knows to be Good-aligned gives that away.

I'd like to see Malack to be Lawful Evil, and your line of reasoning is not without appeal; but even if he is Lawful Neutral, as his philosophy suggests, he can still be a vampire. Maybe he just doesn't kill his victims.

[sockmonkey]

Even if he were evil that doesn't mean he can't show a level of professional courtesy to another cleric. He's still lawful after all.
I still think he's LN though.
It's interesting how we've all taken a shine to him so quickly. I think it's because he's a fresh change from the usual evil-but-charming types in that he's dark-ish but polite.

[SmaugTheYounger]

It wasn't a RANDOM murder because Crystal made it quite clear (albeit in bonus strips in the printed book) that she was intending to kill Haley by any means available and make it look like an accident. OK, you can argue that it was pointless because they were planning to skip town anyway, but Haley at that stage didn't know that meant they'd be instantly teleporting to the far side of the world...
I have not read the printed book, but even so: Would it make Norman Bates look better if one knew that Marion Crane was secretly planning to murder him? (And she was a thief...)
All in all, Haley has somewhat more acceptable motives for lying, stealing and killing, and she gets away with it more often than Belkar, who had to argue rather hard to convince Roy that he had identified a suspect in the kidnapping of Haley, V and Elan. Belkars acts of violence and lying are also much more indiscriminate than hers, and most of the time destructive to the OotS' objectives. When Haley pushed V aside and wounded the riddle man, it was rude and violent. It was also effective, and when they visited the oracle the second time, they had even less troubles passing.

But her actions do have negative effects: Behaving violently is probably not the best way to convince a much dumber, but also much more agressive member of the team to abstain from violence, unless it's really called for.

She had good reasons to to tell Celia to stay away from Grey City, but her arguments were just on the "because I told you so" side - and that's simply not enough to convince an independent minded girl like Celia. And in the end, going to GC was the right - if not the safest - thing to do.

Her distrust in Tarquin and Malkar is well founded, but it also fails to recognize Durkons trustful relationship with Malack as a real asset.

In the end, both Haley and Durkon act foolishly: Discussing tactics should be done before enaging the enemy, and panicking never does anyone any good. (Durkon probably was about to tell a perfectly unsuspecting reason why he knew Haley, while hiding the fact that they are indeed mebers of the same team of adventurers. He may be incapable of lying, but he is no snitch.)

Thats OotS for you: Terrible teamplay, but very good at bumbling along.

[B. Dandelion]

I have not read the printed book, but even so: Would it make Norman Bates look better if one knew that Marion Crane was secretly planning to murder him? (And she was a thief...)

Only if that actually changed his motive. If he would have killed her either way, no, and since he actually did kill her without thinking that, we have no reason to believe knowing would have mattered in the slightest. Haley's case is different because we don't know that she would have acted the same way regardless. She knew Crystal and Bozzok were intending to backstab her (and had already tried). That does change her motive -- it's not a hypothetical scenario, it's just something people who don't have DStP won't know unless they hear from someone who does.


All in all, Haley has somewhat more acceptable motives for lying, stealing and killing, and she gets away with it more often than Belkar, who had to argue rather hard to convince Roy that he had identified a suspect in the kidnapping of Haley, V and Elan. Belkars acts of violence and lying are also much more indiscriminate than hers, and most of the time destructive to the OotS' objectives. When Haley pushed V aside and wounded the riddle man, it was rude and violent. It was also effective, and when they visited the oracle the second time, they had even less troubles passing.

But her actions do have negative effects: Behaving violently is probably not the best way to convince a much dumber, but also much more agressive member of the team to abstain from violence, unless it's really called for.

She had good reasons to to tell Celia to stay away from Grey City, but her arguments were just on the "because I told you so" side - and that's simply not enough to convince an independent minded girl like Celia. And in the end, going to GC was the right - if not the safest - thing to do.

Her distrust in Tarquin and Malkar is well founded, but it also fails to recognize Durkons trustful relationship with Malack as a real asset.

In the end, both Haley and Durkon act foolishly: Discussing tactics should be done before enaging the enemy, and panicking never does anyone any good. (Durkon probably was about to tell a perfectly unsuspecting reason why he knew Haley, while hiding the fact that they are indeed mebers of the same team of adventurers. He may be incapable of lying, but he is no snitch.)

Thats OotS for you: Terrible teamplay, but very good at bumbling along.

Very well said.

[Gray Mage]

Only if that actually changed his motive. If he would have killed her either way, no, and since he actually did kill her without thinking that, we have no reason to believe knowing would have mattered in the slightest. Haley's case is different because we don't know that she would have acted the same way regardless. She knew Crystal and Bozzok were intending to backstab her (and had already tried). That does change her motive -- it's not a hypothetical scenario, it's just something people who don't have DStP won't know unless they hear from someone who does.



But the thing is, could Crystal really be able to kill Haley? I mean they were going to teleport halfway across the world, it's not like they'd be staying in Greysky for a couple weeks or that Haley would ever come back.

[Kish]

But the thing is, could Crystal really be able to kill Haley? I mean they were going to teleport halfway across the world, it's not like they'd be staying in Greysky for a couple weeks or that Haley would ever come back.
You don't know that, and neither does Haley (the bolded part). She didn't expect to ever come back the last time she left.

However, I doubt "preventing Crystal from being a threat" was part of Haley's motivation, really*. If it had been, she would have burned the body so that it would need True Resurrection, or at least mutilated it so that it would need Resurrection, not just left it there where it could be Raised.

*Except, possibly, in the "she'll no longer keep pace with my level gains if I triumph over her thoroughly here" fourth-wall-breaking sense.

[B. Dandelion]

You don't know that, and neither does Haley (the bolded part). She didn't expect to ever come back the last time she left.

However, I doubt "preventing Crystal from being a threat" was part of Haley's motivation, really*. If it had been, she would have burned the body so that it would need True Resurrection, or at least mutilated it so that it would need Resurrection, not just left it there where it could be Raised.

*Except, possibly, in the "she'll no longer keep pace with my level gains if I triumph over her thoroughly here" fourth-wall-breaking sense.

Haley appears to believe there's a very good chance Bozzok won't spring for a resurrection spell as it is -- he's a tightfisted jerkass who's already demonstrated questionable loyalty, what are the odds he'll Raise her?

Better than zero -- I think I'd be delighted if he did do it, just to prove he's not as predictable as Haley thinks -- but at very least she's inconvenienced them and run off with much of Crystal's high-level gear, so she has reduced if not eliminated a threat. And burning the body might not have been possible, within time constraints or without being so conspicuous it'd impede their escape.

[Gray Mage]

You don't know that, and neither does Haley (the bolded part). She didn't expect to ever come back the last time she left.



Yes, you're right, but does killing her help her in case she comes back? Bozzok will probably be even more furious with her, and I doubt he wouldn't raise her. So the only effect that it would be is that Crystal would be a level lower than Haley. I mean, I'd bet that this little conflict would make them even more enemies than before, not less. Besides, being Haley nemessis means that she gets another level whenever Haley gets one, gets exp whenever Haley gets or that she's always at Haley's level. Because in the later cases, she'll quickly catch up to her.

Edit: Also, considering they're nemessis, which kind of implies she'd be at the same level that Haley is, I think that there'd be an equal wealth between them.

[Kish]

Haley appears to believe there's a very good chance Bozzok won't spring for a resurrection spell as it is -- he's a tightfisted jerkass who's already demonstrated questionable loyalty, what are the odds he'll Raise her?

Better than zero -- I think I'd be delighted if he did do it, just to prove he's not as predictable as Haley thinks -- but at very least she's inconvenienced them and run off with much of Crystal's high-level gear, so she has reduced if not eliminated a threat. And burning the body might not have been possible, within time constraints or without being so conspicuous it'd impede their escape.
Which still leaves the question: Why didn't she mutilate the body enough to turn the requirements for Bozzok to get Crystal resurrected from "a cleric capable of casting fifth-level spells, and 5,000 gold" to, "a cleric capable of casting seventh-level spells, and 10,000 gold"? That would have taken a matter of seconds and no additional materials.

[Gray Mage]

Which still leaves the question: Why didn't she mutilate the body enough to turn the requirements for Bozzok to get Crystal resurrected from "a cleric capable of casting fifth-level spells, and 5,000 gold" to, "a cleric capable of casting seventh-level spells, and 10,000 gold"? That would have taken a matter of seconds and no additional materials.

I suppose because that would make Haley even more evil in some people's eyes, and there were already a huge discussion in the forum's at the time.

[B. Dandelion]

Which still leaves the question: Why didn't she mutilate the body enough to turn the requirements for Bozzok to get Crystal resurrected from "a cleric capable of casting fifth-level spells, and 5,000 gold" to, "a cleric capable of casting seventh-level spells, and 10,000 gold"? That would have taken a matter of seconds and no additional materials.

True -- although, the scene cuts away after she kills Crystal to her rejoining the others, so she could have done so off-screen. I don't think she did, though.

When the comic first came out, the whole thing struck me as pure spite. Since the compilation's release, I'm more inclined to allow there being strategic value to it as well. However, spite is still a factor. We don't know that she would have acted the way she did if she hadn't known they were planning to kill her. We don't know she would have acted the way she did if she didn't totally despise Crystal for personal reasons either.

[Detrinex]

I'd like to see Malack to be Lawful Evil, and your line of reasoning is not without appeal; but even if he is Lawful Neutral, as his philosophy suggests, he can still be a vampire. Maybe he just doesn't kill his victims.

His governing system and companions are Lawful Evil, so by association, it'd either rub off on him or he'd be welcome there.

However, he worships a god of death, and as he said, death takes the good and evil, so he'd be neutral like his patron god. Then again, Lawful Evil is about as close as you can get to Neutral without actually being Neutral.

[KilltheToy]

Did it not occur to Haley and Durkon that saying they were "old adventuring buddies" would have been so much easier?

Just saying.

[Kish]

Did it not occur to Haley and Durkon that saying they were "old adventuring buddies" would have been so much easier?

Just saying.
Too close to the truth for Haley. Whether it would have been close enough to the truth for Durkon, well, Haley preempted him.

[BriarHobbit]

I was thinking the same thing, actually. He is a rather pale fellow.

If not that, then...
Probably some other form of intelligent undead.

Yes, I agree with this theory.

[factotum]

Then again, Lawful Evil is about as close as you can get to Neutral without actually being Neutral.

:smallconfused:

OK, I've read that three times and it still doesn't make any sense. Why is Lawful Evil closer to Neutral than, say, Chaotic Good?

[Trixie]

Which still leaves the question: Why didn't she mutilate the body enough to turn the requirements for Bozzok to get Crystal resurrected from "a cleric capable of casting fifth-level spells, and 5,000 gold" to, "a cleric capable of casting seventh-level spells, and 10,000 gold"? That would have taken a matter of seconds and no additional materials.

Geee, maybe because it would have meant crossing the Moral Event Horizon twice? :smallconfused:

Still, we're talking about someone who was perfectly fine about murder, profiting from slavery and stealing from her team, such deed wouldn't be so out of line for her.

[faustin]

Hello, i´m faustin (obvious quote) and this is my first time in this forum, even if i´m following Roy and company´s adventure from long time.
First of all, sorry for my bad english (i´m spanish), and second, i have a little question for all of you (i don´t know if it was already answered):
If each gate is builded next to its hole, and Girard, Soon, Serini and the others travelled together to each localization in order to fight back the snarl... ¿How can expect Girard to fool Soon or his paladins about the coordenates of his Gate? ¿Why didn´t Hinjo (nephew of the previuos leader of the azurites and second samurai in comand after Miko) known it in the first place and tell to Roy?

[Gray Mage]

Hello, i´m faustin (obvious quote) and this is my first time in this forum, even if i´m following Roy and company´s adventure from long time.
First of all, sorry for my bad english (i´m spanish), and second, i have a little question for all of you (i don´t know if it was already answered):
If each gate is builded next to its hole, and Girard, Soon, Serini and the others travelled together to each localization in order to fight back the snarl... ¿How can expect Girard to fool Soon or his paladins about the coordenates of his Gate? ¿Why didn´t Hinjo (nephew of the previuos leader of the azurites and second samurai in comand after Miko) known it in the first place and tell to Roy?

It's very simple actually. The best thing in order to locate something is to look for a reference point, like a funny looking rock or mountain, as for determining the latitude and longitude is necessary training. The problem with deserts is it's pretty much featureless, no references at all, so Soon knows it's somewhere in the desert, sure, maybe in which half, but to pinpoint the exact location? That's why they needed maps, and guess who made them?

[B. Dandelion]

Geee, maybe because it would have meant crossing the Moral Event Horizon twice? :smallconfused:

Okay, please forgive the digression here, but an event horizon is by explicit definition something that can only be crossed once. It's not "kick the dog, only worse," it's "eradicates any last shred of doubt that there might be something they wouldn't stoop to." If it were possible for Haley to look even more heartless and evil by mutilating Crystal's body after killing her, then killing her in the first place could not have been a MEH* crossing.

*Gotta love the hilariously misleading acronym. "It's the worst thing a character can do -- we call it the MEH."

[sockmonkey]

Well with the possibility of resurrection in the OOTS world, killing is slightly less evil if you know the person will be raised. It's more like locking them up somewhere there is no escape from untill someone with the proper spell comes to let them out.
Peole in OOTS don't always come back, and in our world someone locked up might never be found and would starve to death so it's about morally the same as that, as opposed to being morally the same as murder in our world. Thus, making sure someone stays dead is morally worse than killing them.
I'm not saying I disagree with making Crystal's death permanent though.

[Kish]

Well with the possibility of resurrection in the OOTS world, killing is slightly less evil if you know the person will be raised.
If Haley somehow, contrary to what she said, knew Crystal would be raised, then whatever her reason for killing Crystal, it certainly wasn't to stop Crystal from being a threat, was it?

[Swordpriest]

If Haley somehow, contrary to what she said, knew Crystal would be raised, then whatever her reason for killing Crystal, it certainly wasn't to stop Crystal from being a threat, was it?

Good point .... either way, it certainly shows her as a lot meaner and more vindictive than I thought she was up to that point. I always thought of her as, well, roguish, but not necessarily vicious. That incident still boggles me a bit, though -- it's like some of the soul splice wore off on her or something. :smalleek:

[Kish]

Meh. I don't exactly like or respect Haley (...or any member of the Order, actually), but I'm disinclined to get excited about Crystal's death. I mean, Crystal certainly deserved it more than any of the goblins who get killed by the Order from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html).

If Haley wasn't established as particularly callous about killing, she also wasn't established as particularly not-callous about it. She drew the line at Soul Binding the Linear Guild but had no moral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) objections to the idea of killing them; the decision not to slit their throats (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html) in the Dungeon of Dorukan was made by Roy and argued for by Elan, with Haley remaining silent on the issue.

[Gray Mage]

Meh. I don't exactly like or respect Haley (...or any member of the Order, actually), but I'm disinclined to get excited about Crystal's death. I mean, Crystal certainly deserved it more than any of the goblins who get killed by the Order from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html).


That she deserved it, I can't deny, but was it necessary?

[Kish]

Necessary? Well, if Crystal no longer counts as Haley's rival, with the attendant increase in levels, due to having been triumphed over by Haley, then pragmatism gets a look-in at Haley's motives. Even if that is the case, I'm pretty sure it was 90% about hatred, going up to 100% if that is not the case.

[Gray Mage]

Necessary? Well, if Crystal no longer counts as Haley's rival, with the attendant increase in levels, due to having been triumphed over by Haley, then pragmatism gets a look-in at Haley's motives. Even if that is the case, I'm pretty sure it was 90% about hatred, going up to 100% if that is not the case.

Why does being defeated once, make her stop being a rival? I'd suppose it'd make their rivality increase, maybe going to arch-nemessis? I'd be interesting if Haley's attempt to neutralize Crystal ended up making her more powerfull.

[Kish]

Why does being defeated once, make her stop being a rival?
Because a story has an end, and mechanics which turn on dramatic imperative are affected by the removal of that dramatic imperative. Taking R. A. Salvatore for an example...

Artemis Entreri's rivalry with Drizzt became largely one-sided after Drizzt 1) defeated Artemis in single combat, and 2) rejected the idea that he needed to prove himself better than Artemis. Since then, Artemis' efforts to confront Drizzt as Drizzt's archrival have resulted in him being brushed off as a delusional nuisance. Of course, Salvatore's novels have a fourth wall, but if they went by the rules of the Order of the Stick, I would expect Artemis to have stopped getting levels from Drizzt at the end of The Halfling's Gem.

[faustin]

It's very simple actually. The best thing in order to locate something is to look for a reference point, like a funny looking rock or mountain, as for determining the latitude and longitude is necessary training. The problem with deserts is it's pretty much featureless, no references at all, so Soon knows it's somewhere in the desert, sure, maybe in which half, but to pinpoint the exact location? That's why they needed maps, and guess who made them?

Ok, thanks Gray Mage for the reply, it´s make sense now if Girard was the group cartographer.

Respect to the Haley-Crystal question, my humble opinion is that Haley grow tired of having so many "nemesis" in her back (Sabine, Samantha, Tsukiko). She saw her chance to permanently remove one from the list and took it (and remember she doesn´t know Miko killed Samantha in the forest). After, she grow remorses and confessed her crime to Elan, so at least isn´t a total Moral Event Horizon; Vaarsuvius on the other hand..... we still have to see how his soul fits in the Fiends´ plan.

[hamishspence]

:smallconfused:

OK, I've read that three times and it still doesn't make any sense. Why is Lawful Evil closer to Neutral than, say, Chaotic Good?

Mostly because it's famous for having compunctions, like "not killing children, if it can be helped"


Lawful Evil, "Dominator"
A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

[Kish]

Mostly because it's famous for having compunctions, like "not killing children, if it can be helped"
I'm inclined to think it's much more a matter of equating Lawful with Good, so that, if Lawful Evil isn't outright oxymoronic, it totals out somewhere close to neutral.

[hamishspence]

There are some Neutral Evil villains which (in D&D novels) exhibit some level of moral compunctions- Jarlaxle is a classic example.

Not sure about Chaotic Evil ones though.

[sockmonkey]

If Haley somehow, contrary to what she said, knew Crystal would be raised, then whatever her reason for killing Crystal, it certainly wasn't to stop Crystal from being a threat, was it?Good point, as Swordpriest said.
Aside from spite, if Haley thought Crystal would get res'ed, breaking the rival bond is one possible motive as others have mentioned.
(assuming that's how it works in OOTS of course)
It might have been to put the fear into her so she backs off.
(Crystal is probably too dumb to be spooked by it though)
If Haley knows she wouldn't get res'ed right away it would be a way to keep Crystal out of her hair for a while.
I don't really buy any of these myself though. I think it's a mix of hating her guts and wanting her off her back forever since Haley thinks she won't get res'ed.

[factotum]

I'm inclined to think it's much more a matter of equating Lawful with Good, so that, if Lawful Evil isn't outright oxymoronic, it totals out somewhere close to neutral.

I can see someone whose only exposure to D&D being the Basic/Expert sets getting confused in that way, considering they only had the Law-Chaos axis. Mind you, those were also games where Halfling and Elf were character classes and you didn't get to pick a separate race!

[hamishspence]

One version of Basic (the Eric Holmes version) had 5 alignments (LE, CE, N, CG, LG).

[Dilvish]

Actually in D&D the opposite is the norm. Few are the deities of death that actually oppose undead. Usual are the deities of death whose clerics, after all funeral guest have left, rob the graves they just blessed to create more undead minions.

Sigh, no one understands. Good help is so hard to reanimate these days.

[Darthteej]

. I mean, Crystal certainly deserved it more than any of the goblins who get killed by the Order from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) to here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html).
.

To be fair, some of them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html) deserved it, even if it was filtering through a lampshade.

[Xavon]

Hooray, another Star Wars reference.

And Haley's conversion was amusing too, I guess.

[Vero]

Since it's clearly been ignored in this thread too much, can I just point out how smokin' Hayley looks in that dress?

Although, is there significance to it being white? Are she and Elan going to tie the knot?

[SoC175]

My friend negotiated good agreement with evil and powerful organization? Geee, let's make sure I'll piss them off with random, pointless murder before I leave while tearing the agreement. It won't bite us in the ass later, surely. Actually it was the remnant of a weak organization they had just beaten. Celia's deal was more likely to the USA suddenly surrendering to Germany in 1945 and offering them reparations if they were to accept.

[Wiffleboy]

I don't know if it has been mentioned before but funny enough there is a vampire named Malak (not spelled the same I know) in the MMORPG Runescape. Not that I believe he's a vamp but funny how this plays into some of the peoples theories. Add to that both Malak (as in Darth Malak from KotOR) and Tarkin (As in Grand Moff Tarkin) are Star Wars references and we a load of theories and fun.

[sockmonkey]

Actually it was the remnant of a weak organization they had just beaten. Celia's deal was more likely to the USA suddenly surrendering to Germany in 1945 and offering them reparations if they were to accept. Not really. The OOTS won the battle but may very well have lost the war if they had the whole guild out for their heads after they left. At best it would have slowed them down enough for them to fail in their world-saving mission.

[rewinn]

That she deserved it, I can't deny, but was it necessary?

:haley:After what she did to my hair? Of COURSE it was necessary!

[Maxios]

I actually thought when I read the title, they converted to 4th edition. :smalleek::smalleek::smallsigh:

[factotum]

I actually thought when I read the title, they converted to 4th edition. :smalleek::smalleek::smallsigh:

You're at least the second person in this thread to think so...I have no idea why, considering it's been made clear on numerous occasions that OotS is not going to convert.