PDA

View Full Version : Races Worth a LA? [3.5]



Tokuhara
2010-08-18, 04:11 PM
Are there any races that are worth their LA, even for casters.

I know Aasimar and Tieflings are on the list, along with a select few others, but I have a few that I think are worth it:

Goliath/Half-Giant: Powerful Build
Chaos Gnome: 3 nice skill boosts (Dex, Cha, and Con), a boost when casting Chaotic subtype spells, a decent SLA (entrophic shield), and a 1/day reroll. All for 1 LA
Catfolk: +1 NA, +4 Dex, +2 Cha, 40ft speed, and skill boosts for 1LA. Seriously? This is a Ranger in a race!
Gnoll: Granted, the 2 racial hit dice suck, but for a Barbarian beatstick, this is a buy. +4 str and +2 con with a nice rage-themed feat, I say they are worth 4 levels. Plus, most barbarian builds need to fill space...
Thri-Kreen (Non-Psionic): Same as abovem but the Monsterous Humanoid type really makes up for the RHD. Plus, you have 4 fricken arms!!! and for 3 levels, it's worth a buy

Soren Hero
2010-08-18, 04:17 PM
I know you were asking about races, but would you consider templates?

if you can swing it by your dm, the Saint is a great template even though it is a LA +2, here's why: for 2 LA, you get immunities to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Petrification, Fire Resistance 10, Darkvision 60', boosts to Con, Wis and Cha, insight AC bonus equal to Wis modifier, Fast Healing (HD/2), and a whole bunch of other abilities...

i believe it is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. there are some requirements to have the template, but i'm not entirely sure what they are

hope this helps

Tokuhara
2010-08-18, 04:20 PM
I know you were asking about races, but would you consider templates?

if you can swing it by your dm, the Saint is a great template even though it is a LA +2, here's why: for 2 LA, you get immunities to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Petrification, Fire Resistance 10, Darkvision 60', boosts to Con, Wis and Cha, insight AC bonus equal to Wis modifier, Fast Healing (HD/2), and a whole bunch of other abilities...

i believe it is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. there are some requirements to have the template, but i'm not entirely sure what they are

hope this helps

templates are welcome to a degree. I don't want Dragon Magazine suggestions. However, Dragon Compendium is always welcome :)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-18, 04:23 PM
Marrulurk are great for sneaky build, 3 RHD and LA +1 but it gives you so much, they are really worthy.

Sneak attack, IIRC 2d6
Death Attack
Breath weapon 1/day (by far the worst ability the get)
GREAT stat modifiers... IIRC there is like a +12 net gain on stats or something like that
Small size
Nat armor bonus
Poison use
And the Monstrous humanoid isn't bad, Full BAB, two good saves (Ref and Will IIRC).
A scent like abiliy but sound based
Resist fire
and maybe other stuff

The only downside is the low amount of skills you get I think 2+int from a not so stellar list

Gorgondantess
2010-08-18, 04:26 PM
Are there any races that are worth their LA, even for casters.

I know Aasimar and Tieflings are on the list, along with a select few others, but I have a few that I think are worth it:
No... no, they're really not. Aasimar and tieflings can pass as LA +0.


Gnoll: Granted, the 2 racial hit dice suck, but for a Barbarian beatstick, this is a buy. +4 str and +2 con with a nice rage-themed feat, I say they are worth 4 levels. Plus, most barbarian builds need to fill space...

You can get the same stat modifiers (just plus -2 wisdom), same abilities, and swim speed with water orc for no LA, no RHD.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-18, 04:26 PM
Nereid: 3 Hd/3 LA, but I think it is worth it.
Permanent Displacement. Cha as Deflection bonus to AC.
Some okay SLAs. At will, Drown (touch attack) meaning full attacks possible. Resist fire/Cold 10. -2 Str, +6 Dex/Cha, +2 Con/Int/Wis.
Fey HD aren't very good (D6 hp), but one bad thing shouldn't dissuade you.

DanReiv
2010-08-18, 04:31 PM
Dark, Feral and loth-touched. All nice for +1 LA.

Necropolitan as added bonus since it's not even LA, you loose a level +1k XP.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-18, 04:34 PM
No... no, they're really not. Aasimar and tieflings can pass as LA +0.



I think the Outsider type plus the assorted goodies is enough to warrant a LA +1, unless you are refering to the lesser versions.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 04:35 PM
No... no, they're really not. Aasimar and tieflings can pass as LA +0.

They are worth LA+1...for one purpose. They're the cheapest core way to gain the Outsider-type and the subsequent advantages with Polymorph and Alter Self. Neraphim sort-of-kinda obsolete them with Planar Handbook, but Tiefling is still a nice Wizard-race with buy off.

At LA +1 outside Core though, they aren't really worth it and if not abusing the Alter Self/Polymorph options, pretty much never (the free Martial Weapon Profs are nice, but not worth LA +1 really). Lesser ones are nice races though; up there with Humans, Dwarves, Gray Elves and company.


Pixies can be non-horrible though I'd argue anything can't actually be worth 4 LA without granting at least 3 levels of a tier 1 caster class. But they're kinda decent, and quite good actually early on; permanent flight and Greater Invisibility are really nice.

Adumbration
2010-08-18, 04:38 PM
I've always kinda liked Bariaurs. For +1 LA, you get:
- Outsider type
- +2 Str, -2 Cha
- SR 11+character level
- Base land speed 40 ft
- +4 to resist Trip and Bull rush
- 1.5x carrying capacity
- Powerful charge
- +2 to will saves against spells/spell like abilities
- +2 to listen and spot.

Really, I think they're a bargain.

dsmiles
2010-08-18, 05:47 PM
Rakshasas (Rakshasae?) if you're playing a sorcerer. Their innate sorcerer ability stacks with levels of sorcerer. (I personally believe a Nymph's innate druid ability should stack with levels of druid, but the book doesn't say it does.)

Ilmryn
2010-08-18, 06:01 PM
The Savage Species half-ogre(obviously not for casters though). It gets +6 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha, large size, and +4 natural armor. For +1 LA!

Technically, it's 3.0, but i don't think savage species was ever updated to 3.5, so it should be usable.

Greenish
2010-08-18, 06:02 PM
The Savage Species half-ogre(obviously not for casters though). It gets +6 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha, large size, and +4 natural armor. For +1 LA!

Technically, it's 3.0, but i don't think savage species was ever updated to 3.5, so it should be usable.There's 3.5 half-ogre in Races of Destiny. +2 LA.

Ernir
2010-08-18, 06:02 PM
Rakshasas (Rakshasae?) if you're playing a sorcerer. Their innate sorcerer ability stacks with levels of sorcerer. (I personally believe a Nymph's innate druid ability should stack with levels of druid, but the book doesn't say it does.)

Erm, Rakshasas are LA +7, with 7 RHD. A classless Rakshasa is ECL 14, and casts as a 7th level Sorcerer. Absolutely not worth it. =/

dsmiles
2010-08-18, 06:09 PM
I beg to differ.


Rakshasa characters possess the following racial traits.

* +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.
* Medium size.
* A rakshasa’s base land speed is 40 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Hit Dice: A rakshasa begins with seven levels of outsider, which provide 7d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +7, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +5, Ref +5, and Will +5.
* Racial Skills: A rakshasa’s outsider levels give it skill points equal to 10 × (8 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Bluff, Disguise, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sense Motive, and Spot. A rakshasa has a +4 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks, and it can gain further bonuses by using change shape (+10 on Disguise checks) and detect thoughts (+4 on Bluff and Disguise checks).
* Racial Feats: A rakshasa’s outsider levels give it three feats.
* +9 natural armor bonus.
* Natural Weapons: Bite (1d6) and 2 claws (1d4).
* Detect Thoughts (Su): The save DC is 12 + the character’s Cha modifier.
* Spells: A rakshasa character casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer. If the character takes additional levels of sorcerer, these levels stack with the rakshasa’s base spellcasting ability for spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level. A rakshasa character likewise uses the sum of its racial spellcasting levels and class levels to determine the abilities of its familiar.
* Special Qualities (see above): Change shape, damage reduction 15/good and piercing, spell resistance equal to 27 + class levels.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Sylvan, Undercommon.
* Favored Class: Sorcerer.
* Level adjustment +7.

Innate sorcerer ability stacks, +6 CON, +6 CHA, +9 Natural Armor, Change Shape, Detect Thoughts, +7 BAB, DR 15 good and piercing, SR 27+, 40 ft move, all good saves
Seriously? Not worth a +7 LA?

Trodon
2010-08-18, 06:11 PM
I've always kinda liked Bariaurs. For +1 LA, you get:
- Outsider type
- +2 Str, -2 Cha
- SR 11+character level
- Base land speed 40 ft
- +4 to resist Trip and Bull rush
- 1.5x carrying capacity
- Powerful charge
- +2 to will saves against spells/spell like abilities
- +2 to listen and spot.

Really, I think they're a bargain.

Where can I find this?

Greenish
2010-08-18, 06:12 PM
I beg to differ.

Innate sorcerer ability stacks, +6 CON, +6 CHA, +9 Natural Armor, Change Shape, Detect Thoughts, +7 BAB, DR 15 good and piercing, SR 27+, 40 ft move, all good saves
Seriously? Not worth a +7 LA?Nope. Level 14 Sorc will have the same BAB, more HP, better saves and the ability to out-cast you without breaking sweat.

Rakshasa is just weak for a player character.

dsmiles
2010-08-18, 06:12 PM
Where can I find this?

BoED, I think.

Greenish
2010-08-18, 06:13 PM
BoED, I think.Isn't BoED version +2 LA. It's also in Manual of the Planes, I think.

Trodon
2010-08-18, 06:15 PM
BoED, I think.

Sweet, thanks.

Lord Loss
2010-08-18, 06:15 PM
I beg to differ.

Innate sorcerer ability stacks, +6 CON, +6 CHA, +9 Natural Armor, Change Shape, Detect Thoughts, +7 BAB, DR 15 good and piercing, SR 27+, 40 ft move, all good saves
Seriously? Not worth a +7 LA?

The Probelm though, is that, whilst good, you lose 14 levels. Almost any lvl 15 character will be better than this, with or without seven levels of casting. With LA buyoff, it becomes slightly more viable, though.

Ernir
2010-08-18, 06:20 PM
The BoED version of the Bariaur has both LA +2 and RHD. You don't want that one.

There's one in the Planar Handbook. Might be in the Manual of the Planes too, don't know about that one.


The Probelm though, is that, whilst good, you lose 14 levels. Almost any lvl 15 character will be better than this, with or without seven levels of casting. With LA buyoff, it becomes slightly more viable, though.

LA buyoff won't kick in until Epic for the Rakshasa, though. :smallfrown:

Runestar
2010-08-18, 06:27 PM
Gnoll: Granted, the 2 racial hit dice suck, but for a Barbarian beatstick, this is a buy. +4 str and +2 con with a nice rage-themed feat, I say they are worth 4 levels. Plus, most barbarian builds need to fill space...

Gnoll is clearly inferior to the goliath. Both have comparable stat boosts, yet the gnoll comes with 2 crappy humanoid HD.

Sylph (MM2) would make a good spellcaster. 3 outsider HD, LA+5, casts as a sorc of her HD+4 (and can be advanced to 9 outsider HD), so it is really just a net of LA+1. Not to mention it also comes with some cool abilities such as stat boosts and flight.

I always thought centaur was a decent ECL6, especially since it is its own mount, and so can take spirited charge without meeting the requirements. this makes it a formidable charger, without the drawback of having a vulnerable mount, since he is essentially his own mount.

Eldariel
2010-08-18, 06:45 PM
The Probelm though, is that, whilst good, you lose 14 levels. Almost any lvl 15 character will be better than this, with or without seven levels of casting. With LA buyoff, it becomes slightly more viable, though.

Lol. Do you know when they get to buy off their first point of LA? 'cause at that point the game is so totally beyond FUBAR'd that levels no longer make one ounce of a difference. Yeah, you need to wait until ECL 35 (level 21 + 7 HD + 7 LA; and no, HD doesn't count towards level for buying off LA) with the second one at ECL 52 (accounting for the one bought off level). So...yeah, no.


Rakshasa is really a model case of an unplayable race; level 14 character with level 7 Sorc casting as his best offense? Yeah, no. Level 14 = level 7 spells for real characters. Rakshasa is busy flexing his level 3 spell muscle. Good luck with that. And his physicals are even worse with 7 BAB and +2 Str, +4 Dex as all of his contributions. Oh, and guess what happens if the party ends up in hit by a HD-dependant effect? Yeah, the Rakshy won't really fare well. And that SR 27? It's just 1 point higher than a level 14 Cleric/Druid's Spell Resistance-spell, and that's assuming no caster level boosts (level 14 marks wealth for Beads of Karma, Orange Prism Ioun Stone and company already just in Core). Spell Resistance lasts 10 mins/level so it's not much of a hazzle to make the spell last all day.

So yeah, that ability may be worth about 3 level 6 slots...nice but it's nowhere near as good as actual 6 slots you could spend on anything. And don't forget, Spell Resistance is a mixed blessing; it's quite easy to penetrate (level 14 caster probably already has at least Spell Penetration in Core with a CL booster for over 50% odds, and out of Core you have True Casting and Assay Spell Resistance to make it autosuccess).

Rakshasa could actually be interesting with 3 LA. Possibly. Its stat boosts aren't even amazing; hell, Half-Celestial (4 LA and overcosted at that) has similars and possibly better spell-likes while at it! Oh, and the DR is cute but it's gonna work overtime to compensate for 7 HDs worth of HP... Let alone your saves, which are just abysmal.

Greenish
2010-08-18, 06:51 PM
There's one in the Planar Handbook. Might be in the Manual of the Planes too, don't know about that one.Nah, I just remembered that it was in a book about the planes, and the manual was the first name that came to my mind. :smallredface:

Prime32
2010-08-18, 06:59 PM
Tier system for templates. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0)

I'm a fan of the abrian myself, a 2HD/+1 LA Magical Beast from Fiend Folio. They grow to Large size if you advance them by 1HD, which grants some nice benefits (including +8 Str).

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-18, 11:25 PM
eldariel's the only one worth listening to.

OP, there really aren't any. Sharn is the closest.

I can only suggest what I believe WotC wanted with LA and RHD, my ECL variation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8578981#post8578981).

ex cathedra
2010-08-19, 12:34 AM
Very, very few. As far as templates go, there's Dragonlance's White Dragonspawn, and Feral (though, it's only generally worth it with LA buy off, in my opinion).

Races? There's... uh...
well, not many. I'm pretty fond of the Greensnake Naga [OA], at least, for the +2 Str/+4 Dex/+4 Con/+2 Int/+2 Wis, +1 NA, negligible poison, and Telepathy. Their telepathy's fluff implies that it inherently has no range limit, but it's more realistically 30', sadly for Mindsight. Even so, the +14 stat modifers is a pretty sweet deal at LA+1.

Jallorn
2010-08-19, 01:09 AM
How about the Incarnate race? 4 RHD and 4 LA, but RHD stack with psion manifesting and it basically gives you the Uncarnate PRC's abilities with less penalty.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-19, 01:12 AM
Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is amazing for any melee/tank/noncaster, definitely worth the +1 LA.

Roga
2010-08-19, 01:15 AM
I'm a big fan of the Mechanatrix. They're planetouched by the clockwork outsiders of Mechanus. So you get to be a cyborg of sorts. They have 1 obviously mechanical part to their body, from a hand to an eye or what have you, and They get the following all for LA 1:
Cold and Fire resistance 5
Electric Healing (Instead of taking damage from electricity they are healed for 1 point for every 3 points of electricity.) Score!
Shocking Grasp 1/day
+2 Racial bonus to Spot and +4 to knowledge Architecture and engineering.
-2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha
And the Outsider Type.

edit: Source is Fiend Folio

Adumbration
2010-08-19, 01:39 AM
Where can I find this?

Just to clarify: it's in Planar Handbook, page .... 7, I think.

Worira
2010-08-19, 01:49 AM
Half-dragon orc has +12 strength, +2 con, -2 wis and a handful of other goodies for 3 LA.

EDIT: And Half-dragon werebear orc gets +28 strength, +10 con, and no ability penalties for 6 LA and 6 HD, although the HD are d12s. Not really overpowered, but fun. Also a few more goodies.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-19, 02:36 AM
A variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) based on a Goristro (FCI) grants +12 Str, +12 Con, +5 natural armor, and a size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), among other miscellaneous benefits, for a +4 LA. It should also grant two Slam attacks which are each considered two-handed weapons.

Half-Minotuar from Dragon 313 grants a size increase, which going from medium to large it will grant a total of Str +12, Dex -2, Con +6, Int -2, +4 natural armor, +10 ft. land speed, a natural gore attack, Scent, Track as a bonus feat, and a few other benefits for only a +1 LA.

Both of those combined, placed on a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), will get the following for a +5 LA:
Huge size Outsider (augmented humanoid, augmented monstrous humanoid, orc)
Str +36, Dex -4, Con +24, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2
+12 natural armor
40 ft. land speed, 40 ft. swim speed
2 slams primary (two-handed weapons), gore secondary
Darkvision, Scent, half-fiend qualities, half-minotaur qualities, race of water qualities.
LA +5

Worira
2010-08-19, 02:42 AM
We both know that applying the stat increases to size to the half-minotaur, while technically correct, is turbo-BS.

Soren Hero
2010-08-19, 02:43 AM
saint isn't from dragon magazine...its from Book of Exalted Deeds, and according to that list previously linked, marks saint as a tier 1 template

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-19, 02:47 AM
We both know that applying the stat increases to size to the half-minotaur, while technically correct, is turbo-BS.

The template specifically says, "See Table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there." I'll agree that it's turbo-BS, and I'd throw nothing but cramped quarters dungeon crawls at any player insisting on using it for the bargain LA, but that's exactly what the template says to do.

Worira
2010-08-19, 02:52 AM
Uh... Wow. Yeah, this is why I don't use Dragon.

On the subject of half-dragon lycanthropes, the rules are a bit unclear. Lycanthrope can only be applied to humanoids and giants, while half-dragon can be applied to any type, but changes the type to Dragon. So if lycanthrope is applied first, then half-dragon, it's legal, but not the otherway around. The problem is that they're both inherited templates, so I'm not sure what order they apply.

Also, you grow wings when you turn into a bear, but you don't have them normally.

JeminiZero
2010-08-19, 02:57 AM
I like Fey-Touched (Fiend Folio pg 71, also savage species progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). 1 LA for Immunity to Mind Affecting, which can be bought off for any campaign starting above ECL 4. A sound choice for anything with a crappy will save. The stat modifiers (+2 Dex/Cha, -2 Con) make them more appropriate for Rogues, but dexterity based Warriors will also work well (e.g. Tiger Claw Warblades).

The Amphibious Template (Stormwrack) is also worthwhile. +0 LA, -2 Dex for the ability to breath water. Its especially good for heavy armor users, since you can dump Dex, and not worry about drowning in your heavy plate. Still, at high levels, the -1 AC (which is the main penalty of lower Dex) becomes mostly negligible so that any character afraid of a watery death can consider taking it.

dsmiles
2010-08-19, 04:30 AM
Rakshasa is just weak for a player character.
Here we go. I just know somebody's going to say it after this post, so I'll do it for you.

http://chzderp.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/97054893-41c8-4ae6-9967-ad7bb1c68420.jpg
Durrr, Stormwind much? Hurr hurr. (Yes, that's how I really feel about people who walk around saying that to other gamers.)

I would take a rakshasa over a human/elf/dwarf/gnome/tiefling/aasmiar/whatever, even if it's mechanically sub-optimal *GASP!*, when it provides me with an opportunity at a better story. I'm not saying that role-playing and mechanical optimization are mutually exclusive. Here's what I am saying:
Given the choice between:
1.) a character that can one-shot Cthulhu and provides the opportunity for an average story, and
2.) a mechanically sub-optimal character that provides the opportunity for an EPIC story...
I'll pick number 2, every time. (Would you really want to read a book or go see a movie where they talk about all the cool powers a guy has for the first half of it and then give you a sub-par story? I sure wouldn't.)
As far as the rakshasa goes, you immediately have to have a better story (or at least a more convincing one) to pull that off than you would with any "standard" race, and even most "LA" races. Thus, I'll take the rakshasa, as it provides me with a more interesting story opportunity than the standard races.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-19, 05:23 AM
I've always kinda liked Bariaurs. For +1 LA, you get:
- Outsider type
- +2 Str, -2 Cha
- SR 11+character level
- Base land speed 40 ft
- +4 to resist Trip and Bull rush
- 1.5x carrying capacity
- Powerful charge
- +2 to will saves against spells/spell like abilities
- +2 to listen and spot.

Really, I think they're a bargain.

Except that any armor worn has to be modified and is hard for them to don without help, and they need horseshoes for their feet.

And I often wonder why Bariaurs, Wemics or Centuars don't have a climb penalty given their awkward forms.

Adumbration
2010-08-19, 05:30 AM
Except that any armor worn has to be modified and is hard for them to don without help, and they need horseshoes for their feet.

And I often wonder why Bariaurs, Wemics or Centuars don't have a climb penalty given their awkward forms.

Not a great cost, in my opinion - donning armor usually happens in downtime, and besides, what are team mates for? Arguably the modified armor costs the same as unmodified (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures), or max x2 - depends on your interpretion of humanoid. Besides, how many PCs get to wear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofSpeed) horseshoes? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofaZephyr) :smalltongue:

Andion Isurand
2010-08-19, 05:33 AM
well, at least a bariaur can serve as a mount to a small PC

Prime32
2010-08-19, 06:25 AM
Here we go. I just know somebody's going to say it after this post, so I'll do it for you.

http://chzderp.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/97054893-41c8-4ae6-9967-ad7bb1c68420.jpg
Durrr, Stormwind much? Hurr hurr. (Yes, that's how I really feel about people who walk around saying that to other gamers.)

I would take a rakshasa over a human/elf/dwarf/gnome/tiefling/aasmiar/whatever, even if it's mechanically sub-optimal *GASP!*, when it provides me with an opportunity at a better story. I'm not saying that role-playing and mechanical optimization are mutually exclusive. Here's what I am saying:
Given the choice between:
1.) a character that can one-shot Cthulhu and provides the opportunity for an average story, and
2.) a mechanically sub-optimal character that provides the opportunity for an EPIC story...
I'll pick number 2, every time. (Would you really want to read a book or go see a movie where they talk about all the cool powers a guy has for the first half of it and then give you a sub-par story? I sure wouldn't.)
As far as the rakshasa goes, you immediately have to have a better story (or at least a more convincing one) to pull that off than you would with any "standard" race, and even most "LA" races. Thus, I'll take the rakshasa, as it provides me with a more interesting story opportunity than the standard races.That is not the question being asked here. If we were judging things based on how cool they are, then the answer to the OP's question would be "all of them" and this thread would have no reason to exist.

And seriously, a character who is competent at his job automatically lacks a personality? :smallconfused: Would rakshasas become boring to you if they had a +3 LA? A weak character has less ability to contribute to a story - you can't use a character as an assassin if his sneak attack deals less damage than a papercut. You can't have a charismatic leader banding together all the kingdoms if he has 8 Cha and no ranks in Diplomacy.

Greenish
2010-08-19, 06:42 AM
Here we go. I just know somebody's going to say it after this post, so I'll do it for you.

http://chzderp.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/97054893-41c8-4ae6-9967-ad7bb1c68420.jpg
Durrr, Stormwind much? Hurr hurr. (Yes, that's how I really feel about people who walk around saying that to other gamers.)
The thread is titled as "Races worth a LA". You claimed that rakshasa is such a race, and cited a long string of numerical bonuses to "prove" it. Well, rakshasa is a mechanically weak choice for a player based on those very numbers.

You didn't say anything about how cool or flavourful or awesome they are, you only pointed at the mechanics, and only when pointed out that your assertion is incorrect retreated to "lol munchkin i r RPer than thou!"

I would take a rakshasa over a human/elf/dwarf/gnome/tiefling/aasmiar/whatever, even if it's mechanically sub-optimal *GASP!*, when it provides me with an opportunity at a better story.That has nothing to do on whether Rakshasa is worth it's LA.
Given the choice between:
1.) a character that can one-shot Cthulhu and provides the opportunity for an average story, and
2.) a mechanically sub-optimal character that provides the opportunity for an EPIC story...That's a false dichotomy and you know it.
As far as the rakshasa goes, you immediately have to have a better story (or at least a more convincing one) to pull that off than you would with any "standard" race, and even most "LA" races.That's a) false and b) irrelevant to what were talking about.

[Edit]: It should also be noted that the question I answered was:
Innate sorcerer ability stacks, +6 CON, +6 CHA, +9 Natural Armor, Change Shape, Detect Thoughts, +7 BAB, DR 15 good and piercing, SR 27+, 40 ft move, all good saves
Seriously? Not worth a +7 LA?And the answer is "no, those bonuses aren't worth +7 LA, especially on a 7 HD critter".

ex cathedra
2010-08-19, 07:27 AM
LA+3, give or take one, is probably much more reasonable for a creature with that much RHD.

elpollo
2010-08-19, 01:09 PM
I might be wrong, but it looks as if dsmiles misunderstands that the RHD count towards your ECL (he cites the +7 LA but doesn't mention RHD except as a benefit). If this is the case, dsmiles - this is why people are disagreeing with you. If you reread the section it should become clear as to why this is. If this isn't the case then I apologise for assuming.

You could probably do something with the Insectile Template (+2LA, Savage Species) and Multiweapon fighting for 6 attacks at your primary BAB -4 (-2 with light weapons). It might be worthwhile for a rogue who wants to get 6 sneak attacks on a target - you're gaining 2 attacks over a 2 weapon fighting rogue at the cost of 2 points of base attack bonus, but all your attacks are at your highest BAB -2. A rogue 20 against an insectile rogue 18 would have +13/+13/+8/+3 against +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11.


edit - wait, I think I've misunderstood how Multiweapon fighting works. I assumed it was like multiattack, but it seems like it gives you a load of attacks in addition to the normal instead of instead (if someone can confirm this that would be great). This would mean the rogue would be at +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1.

strider24seven
2010-08-19, 01:22 PM
Dark, Feral and loth-touched. All nice for +1 LA.

Necropolitan as added bonus since it's not even LA, you loose a level +1k XP.

Dark is better on a Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic). 22k for a +1 LA template that's actually pretty good? Yes, please.

I second Feral and Lolth-Touched.

Half-Minotaur is absolutely vicious for +1 LA, especially if the DM lets it stack with Powerful Build/Jotunbrud/etc.

Shadow can be worth it on some builds for +2 LA for Fast Healing, Evasion, and a MASSIVE speed boost (it's a percent, rather than a flat +X).

Anyone who has a decent CHA can make good use of Phrenic. For +2 LA, you get PR (SR in most campaigns) and better casting than a Wilder gets.

Draconic can be worth it sometimes (+1 LA, IIRC)

White Dragonspawn is almost broken. Especially with kobolds. +1 LA again, IIRC.

Loredrake probably won't be allowed, since you can't apply it to any player races except for a Dragonwrought Kobold. And it technically has no LA and no drawbacks, so it will probably not be allowed.

hamishspence
2010-08-19, 01:32 PM
Dark is better on a Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic). 22k for a +1 LA template that's actually pretty good? Yes, please.

There's a slightly better version of the Dark Template in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave- still LA+1- explictly states that it doesn't require cover or concealment to make use of HiPS. Unlike the Tome of Magic one. If you have it, and can convince the DM that this is an "update" to the existing dark template (and items that grant it) this can be good.

The Shadowmind
2010-08-19, 01:51 PM
If you can get the DM to ignore the little Cohort tag to the LA, then Petal's a good race.
The petal is a tiny sized Fey for +2 LA, that gives -8 Str +10 Dex +4 Con +4 Int +8 Cha which is a total of +18 in stat adjustments. And did I mention it has flight?

Draz74
2010-08-19, 03:57 PM
(I personally believe a Nymph's innate druid ability should stack with levels of druid, but the book doesn't say it does.)

It actually does say that:


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#associatedClassLevels)

That doesn't, of course, change the fact that the Nymph is (unfortunately) a very weak character choice. Seven levels of Druid casting isn't very impressive on an ECL 13 character (6 weak racial Hit Dice and LA +7), even if it stacks with actual Druid levels and comes with a few other nice perks (like CHA to AC). Same as the Rakshasa, really.

SurlySeraph
2010-08-19, 06:08 PM
I quite like Death-Touched, from some Dragon Magazine. +4 Cha, +2 Wis, -2 Con, Chill Touch 1/day with character level as CL, +2 to Intimidate and Move Silently, Darkvision 60’, Cold Resistance 5, Electricity Resistance 5, for +1 LA. With buyoff it's potentially worthwhile for a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, and though the Con hit hurts it's pretty nice for Cha-based melee types. Certainly not as much of a no-brainer as Dark or Feral, but good.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-19, 06:09 PM
I quite like Death-Touched, from some Dragon Magazine. +4 Cha, +2 Wis, -2 Con, Chill Touch 1/day with character level as CL, +2 to Intimidate and Move Silently, Darkvision 60’, Cold Resistance 5, Electricity Resistance 5, for +1 LA. With buyoff it's potentially worthwhile for a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, and though the Con hit hurts it's pretty nice for Cha-based melee types. Certainly not as much of a no-brainer as Dark or Feral, but good.

Especially if you can haggle it through the planetouched LA redux in PGtF and apply the Magic-blooded template from Dragon 306.

Flickerdart
2010-08-19, 08:10 PM
Half-Fey is an awesome template. It's +2 LA, so it hurts in the early levels, but you get:

Double your base land speed as a fly speed (good).
A list of SLAs that scales as you level, notably at-will charm person.
Immunity to the entire school of Enchantment.
Fey type.
+4 CHA among other things.

Makiru
2010-08-19, 08:46 PM
@elpollo: I'm fairly certain that the insectile template says that the extra four arms cannot be used for attacks, at least according to the actual book. I assume they are more for fluff or holding other things. This doesn't make it any less useful, though.

The kaorti (FF 108) has always had a soft spot in my heart. 2HD and +2 LA, -4 Str for +4 Dex, +4 Int and +6 Cha, a bite attack, some SLAs, automatic exotic weapon proficiencies, and the power to make your enemies into permanent thralls, plus the cheapest way to get the Evil subtype outside of rituals. All it costs is being stuck in a special suit of armor so the outside world doesn't kill you.

I think this is incredible for rogues, armored casters like warmage and dread necro, and especially psions and wilders. LA buyoff just makes it better.

Draz74
2010-08-19, 08:47 PM
Half-Fey is an awesome template. It's +2 LA, so it hurts in the early levels,

Which is why you use the Savage Progressions website rules to start with +0 LA, and pick up the LA later in your career (perhaps when you can buy it off :smallamused:) ...

Thurbane
2010-08-19, 09:21 PM
I don't mind Goatfolk, for a melee or Gish build. Monstrous Humanoid HD are far better than Humanoid HD...

3 Monstrous Humanoid RHD (BAB +3, Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +3)
+1 LA
+4 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT, -2 WIS
MWP Greataxe, plus all simple weapons
Light armor proficiency
+2 natural AC
Headbutt 1d6

...4 levels of poor BAB arcane class will qualify you for Abj Champion, without needing to dip any martial classes. Since they don't take a hit to CHA, Sorc, Warmage or Dread Necro are all options.

Sure, by level 20 (assuming buyoff) you'll only have CL 17 (and miss out on 9th level spells)...unless you use the HIGHLY questionable tactic of losing 1 or 2 racial HD to permanent level drain.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-19, 09:26 PM
Tree Trolls as PCs

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162278

Lans
2010-08-19, 09:55 PM
Black Ettergaunts, 16 HD abberation, +4LA, casts as a 17th level wizard with +8 Dexterity, +4 con, +20 Intelligence, +15 NA, and immunity to sixth level and lower spells.

Whites not bad either with 11HD and+5 and 13th level wizard casting. Your 3 levels behind a normal wizard, but you get +16 intelligence,+10 natural armor, +6 dex, immunity to fourth level and lower spells, and probably 2hp.

I think Pharims, sharns counterpart, were decent, but I'll have to find them.

Edits the ushiormori are in the weak-worth it. There not great, but they have an interesting mechanic that can be pretty useful.

Flickerdart
2010-08-19, 11:28 PM
Which is why you use the Savage Progressions website rules to start with +0 LA, and pick up the LA later in your career (perhaps when you can buy it off :smallamused:) ...
Spacing out the levels reduces their benefits though - the wings at level 3 are awesome, the wings at level 5 are not (anyone can do it then).

togapika
2010-08-20, 12:35 AM
I've always been a fan of the Poison Dusk Lizardfolk..
+2 Dex
+2 Con
–2 Cha
• Small Size
• 30’ Movement
• +3 Natural Armor bonus to AC
• Low-light vision
• Can Hold Breath for 4 x Constitution
• Poison Use – never accidentally poisons itself
• Natural Weapons – 2 claws (1d3) & 1 bite (1d3).
• +4 Racial bonus on Balance, Jump, Swim checks
• Weapon Familiarity – Bolos & Nets are treated as
Martial weapons (instead of Exotic).
• As long as most of the skin is exposed, a Poison Dusk
Lizardfolk receives a +5 Racial bonus on Hide.

All for only a +1 LA

Zaakar
2010-08-20, 01:49 AM
Its been easily fixed for a long time. I hate to do so but perhaps I should pimp this more: with some common sense, PC ECL = Floor[HD/2-LA] + LA + Class levels

What does "Floor" mean in this context? I don't quite understand this :smallredface:

senrath
2010-08-20, 02:28 AM
Floor means round down. So any number between 2 and 3 would become 2, any number between 3 and 4 would become 3, so on and so forth.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 05:36 AM
I've always been a fan of the Poison Dusk Lizardfolk.Me too, it's a shame there isn't a medium equivalent (since the bog-standard lizardfolk are weighted down with their humanoid HD).

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 06:32 AM
Maybe take a size-boosting template (like Half-ogre from Dragon) on a standard poison-dusk?

And trim down just a little, to avoid cheese, and call it "Medium Lizardfolk".

Greenish
2010-08-20, 06:35 AM
Maybe take a size-boosting template (like Half-ogre from Dragon) on a standard poison-dusk?Even more LA? I think I'll pass.

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 06:37 AM
+2 LA total on an unusually powerful, 1 Hit dice creature, might be passable though.

Half-Ogre (dragon magazine version) is weaker than half-minotaur- but still good for a +1 LA template.

WinWin
2010-08-20, 06:38 AM
Yuan Ti. Especially the Psionic version from XPH.

4 racial
Small stat boosts
alternate form
SR/PR = 10 + hd
and some decent SLA's. The psionic version gets an augmented Charm Person and Detect Hostile intent at will, among others.

not bad for +2 LA and 4RHD

Greenish
2010-08-20, 06:40 AM
+2 LA total on an unusually powerful, 1 Hit dice creature, might be passable though.But I'm not looking for such, more like no-RHD lizardfolk. I'm a big fan of class features.

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 07:32 AM
Two possible ways of doing this might be:

Reverse-engineer the lizardfolk- strip it of its RHD, and see if it makes a adequate LA +0 race.

Modify the poison-dusk lizardfolk (either by simply increasing its size, or adding a size-increase template) then remove stuff until it's reasonable for LA +0.

As mentioned, a half-ogre (or half-minotaur if you refluff it as looking like an anthropomorphic Triceratops) poison dusk lizardfolk, could be played as LA +2, with no racial hit dice (since the base creature would have 1 RHD, which can be replaced with a class level).

Trim some of the more overpowered features down a bit, and you might have a suitable LA +0 race.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 08:05 AM
Two possible ways of doing this might be:

Reverse-engineer the lizardfolk- strip it of its RHD, and see if it makes a adequate LA +0 race.

Modify the poison-dusk lizardfolk (either by simply increasing its size, or adding a size-increase template) then remove stuff until it's reasonable for LA +0.

As mentioned, a half-ogre (or half-minotaur if you refluff it as looking like an anthropomorphic Triceratops) poison dusk lizardfolk, could be played as LA +2, with no racial hit dice (since the base creature would have 1 RHD, which can be replaced with a class level).

Trim some of the more overpowered features down a bit, and you might have a suitable LA +0 race.Yes, one can be created, I was merely lamenting that one doesn't exist.

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 08:07 AM
The Serpent Kingdoms web enhancement has stats for saurials- but I'm not sure if those are "lizardy" enough.

Stompy
2010-08-20, 08:13 AM
I remember a friend of mine playing a savage progression of a certain type of rakshasa that got sneak attack, and it looked like a good rogue build to be honest.

EDIT: I like lizardfolk too. Too bad the only good PC one is small sized. :smallsigh:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-20, 02:47 PM
Uh... Wow. Yeah, this is why I don't use Dragon.A melee character who sacrifices a ton of levels for being too big to fit in a dungeon? Preposterous.

I think core spells are much more balanced. Why have clones, demiplanes, and dragons to gate when you can find 1 template in 100 that is worth the LA?


Except that any armor worn has to be modified and is hard for them to don without help, and they need horseshoes for their feet.

And I often wonder why Bariaurs, Wemics or Centuars don't have a climb penalty given their awkward forms.Its assumed that they can't climb things horses can't. I remember something about ropes.... :smallfrown:

elpollo
2010-08-20, 02:58 PM
@elpollo: I'm fairly certain that the insectile template says that the extra four arms cannot be used for attacks, at least according to the actual book. I assume they are more for fluff or holding other things. This doesn't make it any less useful, though.

Hmm. The book says "Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks". I thought this was just a clarification that having multiple arms doesn't give any benefits, rather than that they can't make use of the multiweapon fighting feat chain.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 04:35 PM
A melee character who sacrifices a ton of levels for being too big to fit in a dungeon? Preposterous.Half minotaur is +1 LA and Large can squeeze in any place where medium can go normally. (Tunnel Fighting may count as a feat tax, but hey, worth it.)
1 template in 100 that is worth the LA?Well, large size alone is worth more than +1 LA going by the competition (say, goliaths, which can be worth it in buyout) and then there's the ridiculous stat modifiers.

hamishspence
2010-08-20, 04:47 PM
Half ogres as a race, rather than a template, were LA +1 in Savage Species- it was only in Races of Destiny that the half-ogre race became LA+2.

the Pathfinder Giant Creature template is CR+1, and Pathfinder treats monsters as equivalent to characters of the same CR.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html

So maybe that could be used as an LA +1 template?

Starbuck_II
2010-08-20, 04:53 PM
Which is why you use the Savage Progressions website rules to start with +0 LA, and pick up the LA later in your career (perhaps when you can buy it off :smallamused:) ...

That isn't how Savage Species works. You have to finish first in Savage Species.
Which methods do you mean?

Greenish
2010-08-20, 04:55 PM
That isn't how Savage Species works. You have to finish first in Savage Species.
Which methods do you mean?The savage progressions from the website work differently from the ones from the book, I seem to recall.

Prime32
2010-08-20, 05:00 PM
The savage progressions from the website work differently from the ones from the book, I seem to recall.IIRC the only difference is that you don't need to finish them.

The ghost template is a lot more worthwhile if you can take 1-4 levels of the 5-level class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a).

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-20, 08:26 PM
You: A source actually made something worth the LA.

Guy I Was Replying To: Something good, not in core: ZOMG

:smallbiggrin:

Makiru
2010-08-20, 11:55 PM
Hmm. The book says "Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks". I thought this was just a clarification that having multiple arms doesn't give any benefits, rather than that they can't make use of the multiweapon fighting feat chain.

That's probably the right interpretation, because it wouldn't be worth the +2 LA if you couldn't attack in some way.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-21, 12:11 AM
That's probably the right interpretation, because it wouldn't be worth the +2 LA if you couldn't attack in some way.

It isn't supposed to be worth the LA, designers add LA to make it less appealing.

Makiru
2010-08-21, 12:59 AM
It isn't supposed to be worth the LA, designers add LA to make it less appealing.

Isn't it the point of this thread to figure out what is worth the LA, though?

Trodon
2010-08-21, 08:49 AM
I'm sure the Feral template (Savage Species for thoughs who don't know) is worth the +1LA, right?

Greenish
2010-08-21, 08:58 AM
I'm sure the Feral template (Savage Species for thoughs who don't know) is worth the +1LA, right?Hmm, it gains +6 NA, +10' speed, a pair of 1d8 (for medium) claws and +4 strength -2 dex +2 con -4 int +2 wis. The rest depends on interpretation on whether the other benefits come just with RHD or with all hit dice. I'd say it's worth +1 (for right classes) with even the former interpretation.