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Thurbane
2010-08-19, 03:25 AM
Hey all,

Just wondering what experiences people had with these two classes? AFAIK, these are the only 2 OA classes that didn't get a 3.5 makeover in another book - although Shaman is fairly close to Spirit Shaman.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-19, 03:43 AM
I've seen the Shaman has cause more troubles than most Druids. Whereas the Druid doesn't have much to gain by dumpster-diving through splatbooks (there aren't that many animals buried anywhere and there aren't that many diverse effects on the Druid spell list; typically digging through books just increases the Druid's numbers), the Shaman has things like Polymorph and Spirit Ally, which can become problematic as soon as you find things like Cloakers and Elemental Weirds. It has some scary domains (Hero lets the Shaman out-zilla most clerics) and is able to pull off some feat combos that are usually difficult for fighter/casters to afford (Elusive Target/Karmic Strike was what I've seen used; I don't have the book with me and I'm not sure what exactly is on their list). I think it also gets a great deal of support in the SpC.

I won't say it's more broken than other prepared spellcasters, but don't expect it to be playing a different game than the Cleric or Druid just because it doesn't come up as often in internet discussion.



The Sohei is on the other end of the spectrum. I've never seen one done well (and I've seen a surprisingly large number attempted) and despite my best efforts, I never was able to make anything good come out of the class. It's a lot like the Monk, if the Monk lost all its big numbers and interesting class features -- 3/4 BA, a very limited imitation of Flurry of Blows and a spell list that will never be tapped due to MAD and unfavorable action economy. Normally, I'm a fan of classes on the Monk/Fighter/Warlock power level, but even I think the Sohei needs a little help to make it more interesting than the CW Samurai or DMG Aristocrat.

Renchard
2010-08-19, 10:16 AM
Playing a Lion Totem Barbarian1/Shaman 3 right now. Nice spell selection, although missing most of the SpC hurts. (I'm working with my DM to add spells in on a case-by-case basis). Hero Domain is, as mentioned above, awesome sauce. Love having an animal companion. And 2 levels away from divine grace...seriously loving this class.

Person_Man
2010-08-19, 11:52 AM
I've never played either. But just reading them, here are my impressions:

Shaman: Full Wisdom based casting, domains, spontaneous healing or inflict, Animal Companion, Turn/Rebuke Undead, limited bonus feats, and Cha to Saves. A solid Tier 2 class. The only thing holding it back is it's somewhat limited Shamen spell list and domains, and if you try to play it like a standard CoDzilla you're going to have serious MAD issues. Also, like pretty much every other full caster, levels 6-20 are mostly dead, so a PrC is mandatory.

Sohei: Mechanical garbage. No Shield Proficiency. 3/4 BAB - so no Power Attack feat chains. Cruddy Paladin-ish half-casting from a limited list. 9 mostly dead levels. Ki Frenzy is a jumble of limited bonuses, that you can only use limited times per day, that you can duplicate with other things more efficiently.

Thurbane
2010-08-19, 05:12 PM
Animal companions were handled differently in 3.0, using the Animal Friendship spell...the Shaman class states it can only have a 2HD companion.

Updated to 3.5, does this mean it's Animal Copanion class feature becomes the same as that of a Druid?

arguskos
2010-08-19, 05:13 PM
Animal companions were handled differently in 3.0, using the Animal Friendship spell...the Shaman class states it can only have a 2HD companion.

Updated to 3.5, does this mean it's Animal Copanion class feature becomes the same as that of a Druid?
No, it's exactly as written. The Animal Friendship spell wasn't updated (I think), meaning the 3.0 version must be used in this circumstance.

Abilities vary from class to class, so the Shaman can well have a different Animal Companion than the Druid.

Thurbane
2010-08-19, 05:20 PM
...that being the case, it's not a class feature worth writing home about. A 2HD animal that doesn't scale with your level is less useful than a Bag of Tricks.

Lans
2010-08-19, 05:27 PM
I've never played either. But just reading them, here are my impressions:

Shaman: Full Wisdom based casting, domains, spontaneous healing or inflict, Animal Companion, Turn/Rebuke Undead, limited bonus feats, and Cha to Saves. A solid Tier 2 class. The only thing holding it back is it's somewhat limited Shamen spell list and domains, and if you try to play it like a standard CoDzilla you're going to have serious MAD issues. Also, like pretty much every other full caster, levels 6-20 are mostly dead, so a PrC is mandatory.
Its not really tier 2, it has a very limited amount of actual broken spells so it falls into a really strong tier 3 area.



The spells that make it broken are pretty much limited to the alterself line and what ever it can get from domains.





Sohei: Mechanical garbage. No Shield Proficiency. 3/4 BAB - so no Power Attack feat chains. Cruddy Paladin-ish half-casting from a limited list. 9 mostly dead levels. Ki Frenzy is a jumble of limited bonuses, that you can only use limited times per day, that you can duplicate with other things more efficiently.


Its like a little bit stronger monk. The lack of shield proficiency means that it will be using a two handed weapon, and the frenzy+ weapon focus+ flurry mitigates the lack of full BAB. Compared to the monk it will have +2-3 to hit, and reduced MAD due to less emphasis on wisdom, and access to armor
Edit-its on the same tier as monk, and probably about on par with fighter over all. It also has iajitsu focus to help balance things out.

Its spell list means that it can be a bit of a team player fixing people up after fights wear restoration effects, not being screwed when its weapon gets sundered due to GMW. A +2-3 weapon is better than not.

To beef it up, expand the weapon focus line that it starts out with, so it gets weapon specialization at 3rd, greater weapon focus at 7th, melee weapon mastery at 10th, greater weapon specialization at 12th. At 15th give it either slashing flurry, driving attack, or crushing strike based on the weapon they chose to focus on, and weapon supremacy at 17th.
Because lets face it this class, samurai and soulknife have a hell of a lot more flavor for these feats than the fighter ever did.


Expand the frenzy ability so it increases when the barbarians rage inceases, and make the flurry it grants keep pace with the monks if it doesn't already.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-19, 05:49 PM
...that being the case, it's not a class feature worth writing home about. A 2HD animal that doesn't scale with your level is less useful than a Bag of Tricks.
Doesn't the Animal Friendship spell itself allow for larger animal companions?
IIRC, the class ability just ensures you start with one.
I'm pretty sure the Shaman's ability works the same way as the 3.0 Druid's.

Urpriest
2010-08-19, 06:03 PM
The Shaman was updated. AFB at the moment, but an issue of Dragon updated a lot of OA material. I'm pretty sure it gave the shaman a druid's animal companion progression, maybe delayed a few levels.

Lans
2010-08-19, 07:15 PM
No it didn't, but animal friendship kind of translates into the druids animal companion. At the very least it can duplicate having the higher level versions of the druids options. Its been a while, but it means it can have an animal companion with HD equal to his level?

Or it could just translate into the druids AC. ups and downs to both I suppose.

awa
2010-08-19, 08:11 PM
it starts with a 2 hit die animal companion after that it just use the animal friendship spell which gives it an animal companion with hit dice equal to his level (caster level ? not sure which)

Thurbane
2010-08-19, 08:18 PM
The Shaman was updated. AFB at the moment, but an issue of Dragon updated a lot of OA material. I'm pretty sure it gave the shaman a druid's animal companion progression, maybe delayed a few levels.
From the article index, it looks like issue 289. I'll have to see if I can track down a 2nd hand copy.

Sdonourg
2010-08-20, 12:11 AM
No, it's in Dragon Magazine 318.

Zaydos
2010-08-20, 01:42 AM
It's Dragon Magazine issue #318. Along with Pirates, Ninjas, and Dinosaurs.

Sohei is still weak-sauce, although frenzy actually improves with level up like Rage does. It might be good with a full BAB, or at least worth checking its spell list.

Shaman has an animal companion, has the Hero domain which is mostly similar to the Strength domain (although with a few choice spell swaps to make it slightly better). It has a worse spell list than cleric but by no means unusable. The main thing is that it doesn't get any support in splats, including the Spell Compendium (aka the Holy Book of Casting), although there is a paragraph in the Spell Compendium that has some advice on what spells the DM might should allow from the Spell Compendium which if your DM allows a lot of cleric/druid spells it could seriously boost your power (as a DM I allowed healing spells like Close Wounds and Revivify because the party needed a healer and being a heal-bot is probably the least broken thing a full caster can be doing). Honestly my guess is that they're either Tier 2 or Tier 3, but the only time I've seen one play it was 1) completely unoptimized to the extent of 2) being multiclassed with Ninja every other level so I can't say much from experience as to how powerful it can be (at that point a defensively optimized warlock was a better character).

Thurbane
2010-08-20, 01:59 AM
No, it's in Dragon Magazine 318.
Many thanks. :smallsmile:

The lack of SC support isn't a huge issue from my group, as I house-rule that casters who have access to their entire list (Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Ranger) only get to add 2 non-core spells per level anyway...

Greenish
2010-08-20, 05:41 AM
Many thanks. :smallsmile:

The lack of SC support isn't a huge issue from my group, as I house-rule that casters who have access to their entire list (Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Ranger) only get to add 2 non-core spells per level anyway...Ouch, why inflict that on paladins and rangers?

Zaydos
2010-08-20, 10:40 AM
Many thanks. :smallsmile:

The lack of SC support isn't a huge issue from my group, as I house-rule that casters who have access to their entire list (Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Ranger) only get to add 2 non-core spells per level anyway...

Ah but 2 spells can make a big difference, as long as they're the best two. But yeah that should level the playing field some. And Sohei? Just give it a full BAB.

true_shinken
2010-08-20, 11:47 AM
the Druid doesn't have much to gain by dumpster-diving through splatbooks (there aren't that many animals buried anywhere and there aren't that many diverse effects on the Druid spell list
WTF?! Fleshraker, Planar Sheperd and Ashbound Summoning say hi.
Also, about the spell list... seriously, just check the PHB. Seriously.

I like the Sohei. Nice concept, good for getting you into PrCs, you get wands and all that jazz.

Thurbane
2010-08-20, 06:39 PM
Ouch, why inflict that on paladins and rangers?
Mainly for simplicity sake - and also not to have to lug around too many armfuls of books to games. Our group isn't a particularly high-optimization bunch, and a lot of our games are more-or-less core only anyhow.

Sohei could be interesting used with some PrCs - Knight of the Raven springs to mind.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-20, 09:55 PM
WTF?! Fleshraker, Planar Sheperd and Ashbound Summoning say hi.
Also, about the spell list... seriously, just check the PHB. Seriously.
They can do nifty stuff, but I'm comparing them to the Archivist, Artificer, Cleric & StP Erudite, which can do anything that strikes their fancy from level 9 onward.

Planar Shepherd, I'll admit, puts the Druid into the same game as the other D&D bruisers.

Before then, I'm having trouble seeing what a Druid can do that a Sorcerer with the Planar Binding chain and Polymorph can't replicate. And I'm having trouble finding ways for the Druid to get deep access to Cleric/Wizard spell lists before level 17's Shapechange.

Fleshrakers, Venomfire, Ashbound, Rashemi, Blinding Spittle, &c. are all powerful. Probably broken even. But they don't amount to the numbers of options that other full casters have between comparable summons/bc/debuffs/buffs, illusions, dominates/possession, calling effects, fabricate/creations, rulebreakers [Assay Resistance laughing at SR, Invoke Magic ignoring AMFs, Spell Matrix/Timestop/Contingency/Imbue Familiar/Celerity/&c. breaking action economy rules to cast more spells].