Durkon...

[Ellye]

I liked him better when he was just a walking band-aid without personality (besides a funny fear of trees). Is it just me, or is he starting to get more annoying than Miko and Celia combined?

[hamishspence]

He had some pretty strong personality in Origin of PCs.

And his lawful traits have always been present, it's just that at the moment we are seeing them full force.

This was the first scene where his unusually strong lawfulness played a big part:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html

but there are others.

[Ancalagon]

Is it just me, or is he starting to get more annoying than Miko and Celia combined?

No. Durkon has a clue (at least usually) and is just honest. You can reason with Durkon, given a bit time.

Celia and Miko got annoying because they showed a big level of utter cluelessness. No matter what you said, you could not reason or argue with Celia and Miko.

[137beth]

Yea, Durkon is willing to tell misleading truths. Miko was not (she probably wouldn't have understood what that even meant).
Durkon's personality was seen in "I cannae tell a lie", when he tried to mislead Miko by saying that the FIVE of them never tried to escape.

[Dr.Epic]

I liked him better when he was just a walking band-aid without personality (besides a funny fear of trees). Is it just me, or is he starting to get more annoying than Miko and Celia combined?

Durkon is still awesome. The fact he doesn't lie, he treats others with respect, and doesn't think only of loot doesn't make him annoying. It makes him a character with traits and not a one dimensional "I'll kill you!" joke character (Belkar, Richard the Warlock, Black Mage).

[Poppy Appletree]

He had some pretty strong personality in Origin of PCs.

And his lawful traits have always been present, it's just that at the moment we are seeing them full force.

This was the first scene where his unusually strong lawfulness played a big part:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html

but there are others.

There's nothing unusual about his adherence to his Lawful alignment. He's just a dwarf. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

But other dwarves sometimes seem more relaxed than he does.

Like the dwarf assassin at the inn.

[ThePhantasm]

I like Durkon a lot. Just because he wants to obey the law does not make him a radical like Miko.

[Poppy Appletree]

But other dwarves sometimes seem more relaxed than he does.

Like the dwarf assassin at the inn.

The only other dwarves I can think of who have had any major screen time are the one you mentioned and Hilgya - neither of whom swim anywhere near the Lawful end of the alignment pool. Not the best examples of what being a dwarf means, but Durkon lays out dwarven values pretty clearly in his final exchange with Hilgya.

[Goosefarble]

The difference between Miko and Durkon is the difference between morality and fanaticism.

[Kish]

I liked him better when he was just a walking band-aid without personality (besides a funny fear of trees). Is it just me, or is he starting to get more annoying than Miko and Celia combined?
What this post seems not to realize is that "annoying" is a subjective judgment.

The law of averages dictates that you are probably not the only person who considers Durkon "more annoying than Miko and Celia combined." For that matter, while I don't find Durkon at all annoying, I probably consider Durkon "more annoying than Miko and Celia combined," if annoyance points get counted negatively (that is, if liking Celia means Miko and Celia combined are less annoying than Miko alone would be). If, on the other hand, you're hoping for something resembling a consensus that the trait Annoying is intrinsic to Durkon...well, you should prepare for disappointment.

[Swordpriest]

Nah, he's not that annoying. In fact, in the current scene, he's pretty much correct, even though he made a bad call on Roy and Belkar. They've got no way to sustain their half-baked lie for more than a couple of minutes, most likely, and coming clean and letting the dice fall where they may is probably the best policy.

After all, they've got most of their muscle on hand right now if things head south -- V and Durkon are the most powerful members of the party, and Haley is a decent fighter also. Roy's the most dispensable in game terms, belonging to a class famed for its total uselessness in D&D circles, although the lack of Belkar is a bit of a blow.

So, Durkon's being smart AND principled at the moment. Can't see anything particularly annoying in that. :smallsmile:

[Poppy Appletree]

After all, they've got most of their muscle on hand right now if things head south

Are we going back to Sandsedge? :smallbiggrin:


Roy's the most dispensable in game terms, belonging to a class famed for its total uselessness in D&D circles, although the lack of Belkar is a bit of a blow.

In game terms, sure, but you do recall the time between comics 443 and 665, right? :smalleek:

[pendell]

Well, I personally am upset with him because he chose to tell the truth about Haley despite the fact that the matter was still in dispute. Were I him, I would strive to keep Haley's secrets and give her the benefit of the doubt. She wants to keep some hidden cards, help her to do so. If you show her cards to someone she doesn't trust, she simply won't tell you anything anymore.

Not a good team dynamic.


If I were in Durkon's shoes, I'd have responded with rolling my eyes and saying "Already I feel like I've known this lass my entire life, but it's only been ..." then look at her, let her lie, then grumble and say "Well, it may have been a little longer than THAT. Crazy humans, eh?"

Find some way to steer the chancellor away from the matter of my acquaintance with Haley onto our common ground of being nonhumans amidst these crazy human people. It shouldn't be hard to do.

Of course, I think it's fair to say that, while I wouldn't be lying, I'd definitely be practicing deceit. But I'm not sure what else you can do in that situation without betraying either your principles or your friend's trust.

Memo to Durkon: Haley is a member of the OOTS and Malack is NOT. So don't betray team secrets to an outsider. I wouldn't blab Haley's secrets to Hinjo, whom I trust completely, much less an unknown like Malack.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Swordpriest]

In game terms, sure, but you do recall the time between comics 443 and 665, right? :smalleek:

Oh, definitely -- but one feat still isn't going to make a fighter of much use against someone who levitates out of reach and fireballs, disintegrates, and lightnings him out of existence, unless that feat is a literal "I win button". :smallwink:

[Ancalagon]

I think we are in the phase of "Durkon's Lawfulness makes things complicated and endagers the mission without any real need".

But in his defense: Note he really likes Malack and Malack is the only friend he found since he left the dwarfen homes that is not in the Order of the Stick.

You can argue Hilgya was some sort of friend but he sent her away after just a few hours. As friends go, he only has Roy and maybe a little bit Elan, but I assume that Durkon might find Elan a nice chap but that they are not really soulbrothers or anything. Elan is just too chaotic for being a "true friend" to Durkon.

Belkar surely is no friend, same Vaarsuvius after the Darth V arch and Haley is a chaotic thief.

So Durkon's True Friend's list consists of:
* (Very) Maybe Hilgya (but she's not here anyway)
* Roy
* Malack

Give the little bugger a break if he's getting a bit excited over meeting someone he likes. ;)

[Kish]

Oh, definitely -- but one feat still isn't going to make a fighter of much use against someone who levitates out of reach and fireballs, disintegrates, and lightnings him out of existence, unless that feat is a literal "I win button". :smallwink:
I'm guessing that Poppy's point is not about Roy's new feat, but about the rest of the Order falling apart without him.

[Nilan8888]

Well, I personally am upset with him because he chose to tell the truth about Haley despite the fact that the matter was still in dispute. Were I him, I would strive to keep Haley's secrets and give her the benefit of the doubt. She wants to keep some hidden cards, help her to do so. If you show her cards to someone she doesn't trust, she simply won't tell you anything anymore.

Ah, but hold on a second here...

First of all, Haley knows full well that Durkon is uncomfortable with lies and tries to get out of it any way he can. Part of the conflict here is that she is trying to tell Durkon what to do concerning something he feels strongly about.

With Miko there was more of a consensus. Most of the party really didn't like Miko, and Durkon was quite aware as to WHY she was not liked -- and while he didn't necessarily join in with the rest of them, it didn't seem to be that he really disagreed with thier assessment and was really understanding as to why they didn't like her. If Durkon did not dislike Miko, he certainly didn't really like her, either.

But Durkon has met Malack and likes the guy. It's a different situation, compounded by the point that they are all guests in the palace (whereas before they were taken in chains to Azure City). Even those members who are in the gladitorial arena landed themselves there through carelessness, even if the law's penalties are really disproportionate.

Were you Durkon, you say you would strive to keep Haley's secrets. But it's just as fair to turn it in the other direction and look at it from Durkon's POV and ask why doesn't Haley strive to keep Durkon's level of honesty. Why should Haley's opinion be the arbiter of what Durkon tells people? Who is she to give him orders if he doesn't agree with them?

You say the matter was still in dispute... but then even by that standpoint you've already given Haley the advantage here becuase she's gone ahead and lied while the matter was still in dispute as well.

[Crisis21]

Ah, but hold on a second here...

First of all, Haley knows full well that Durkon is uncomfortable with lies and tries to get out of it any way he can. Part of the conflict here is that she is trying to tell Durkon what to do concerning something he feels strongly about.

With Miko there was more of a consensus. Most of the party really didn't like Miko, and Durkon was quite aware as to WHY she was not liked -- and while he didn't necessarily join in with the rest of them, it didn't seem to be that he really disagreed with thier assessment and was really understanding as to why they didn't like her. If Durkon did not dislike Miko, he certainly didn't really like her, either.

But Durkon has met Malack and likes the guy. It's a different situation, compounded by the point that they are all guests in the palace (whereas before they were taken in chains to Azure City). Even those members who are in the gladitorial arena landed themselves there through carelessness, even if the law's penalties are really disproportionate.

Were you Durkon, you say you would strive to keep Haley's secrets. But it's just as fair to turn it in the other direction and look at it from Durkon's POV and ask why doesn't Haley strive to keep Durkon's level of honesty. Why should Haley's opinion be the arbiter of what Durkon tells people? Who is she to give him orders if he doesn't agree with them?

You say the matter was still in dispute... but then even by that standpoint you've already given Haley the advantage here becuase she's gone ahead and lied while the matter was still in dispute as well.

Part of the conflict is that Haley is a pathological liar. Keeping secrets is what she does. As she told Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html), she's just coming to grips with being honest with him, the man she loves. Right now, Durkon couldn't talk her into not being deceptive any more than Haley could talk Durkon into not fearing trees.

Durkon, being as Lawful as he is, follows Haley's lead since she is the second in command of the Order. He may not be happy with it, but he'll do his duty nonetheless.

[Valifor]

This thread reminds me of a certain argument in the new comic discussion thread...

[pendell]

Ah, but hold on a second here...

Were you Durkon, you say you would strive to keep Haley's secrets. But it's just as fair to turn it in the other direction and look at it from Durkon's POV and ask why doesn't Haley strive to keep Durkon's level of honesty. Why should Haley's opinion be the arbiter of what Durkon tells people? Who is she to give him orders if he doesn't agree with them?


Three reasons:

1) Haley is second in command of the order. As ranking officer on scene, she has the right to determine party policy WRT dealing with outsiders .


2) Because it's Haley's secret, not Durkon's. Especially when there's a high probability she's right!

Yes, Haley IS overly suspicious. But the nature of this regime as being lawful evil should be obvious to Durkon. And while he may like Malack, he hasn't even known him for a day yet.

There may be a lot we don't know about him yet, and Durkon shouldn't like his personal likes/dislikes interfere with his evaluation of the tactical situation: That they are inside the castle of a lawful evil empire. And what Malack knows, he can tell to Tarquin.

3) Speaking personally, Haley has earned my trust and respect both for her wisdom and for her tactical skill. If she says 'keep something secret', I'll damn well keep it secret. Especially if you're in an environment where infiltration/rogue skills may come in handy.

If the Order was in the temple of Thor, I'd expect Haley to shut up and follow Durkon's lead. In the middle of a stronghold surrounded by evil people, I'll follow the rogue's lead. She's got more expertise in this than Durkon did.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RndmNumGen]

I like Durkon. He gives a good example about how a character can be extremely Lawful without being completely oblivious to the world at large. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to lie to someone.

[Nilan8888]

1) Haley is second in command of the order. As ranking officer on scene, she has the right to determine party policy WRT dealing with outsiders .

The OOTS isn't a military outfit though: far from it. And Durkon has not been put in a place where he's ever vehemently disagreed from her decisions.

Durkon's allegiance, as I've read it -- mind you I've never read OOTPCs -- is that his allegiance as far as taking orders he doesn't like, is to Roy. If Durkon is told to follow what he feels is a Chaotic order, I don't think it violates his alignment at all to renig on that order if he thinks it's not made in the best interests of the situation.

He wouldn't do that to Roy. Roy, he'd disagree and then follow orders becuase he's very used to that. But he and Roy are also of the same alignment, though Durkon might be more lawful than Roy. I don't see any reason why Durkon would consider thier overall understandings as binding -- especially when Roy is alive and well and can be contacted. It's not like Haley can courtmarshall him, or would. In fact, Haley's doing this without any direction or approval from Roy, and Durkon knows this.



2) Because it's Haley's secret, not Durkon's. Especially when there's a high probability she's right!

It is NOT Haley's Secret -- not anymore than Durkon's at any rate. It's at least half his. In fact it's MORE his, becuase she's telling him he can't acknowledge any of the other order members either.

And of course Haley might be right... she more than probably IS right. But that's not the point. The point is why she should necessarily expect Durkon to follow her orders any more than he would V or Elan's when he really disagrees with them. I would think he'd still reserve that place for Roy.

He will absolutely follow Haley, I think, if he agrees with her or doesn't disagree a whole lot. But if he thinks she's being unwise? Why wouldn't he buck?



Yes, Haley IS overly suspicious. But the nature of this regime as being lawful evil should be obvious to Durkon. And while he may like Malack, he hasn't even known him for a day yet.

Yes but he DOES know Haley and does know her flaws. And these very flaws are at the heart of his disagreement with her. As for the lawful evil nature of the place being obvious to Durkon that may or may not be the case: he knows that Roy and Belkar have ended up in a bad place for an actual transgression. He knows that the rest of the Order are free to roam as guests of the Empress. He doesn't even seem to know there is slave labor in this place. It's obvious to us becuase we've read all the comics so far, but Durkon's only seen so much. He might in fact think this place is Lawful Neutral.



There may be a lot we don't know about him yet, and Durkon shouldn't like his personal likes/dislikes interfere with his evaluation of the tactical situation: That they are inside the castle of a lawful evil empire. And what Malack knows, he can tell to Tarquin.

It's not just his own personal likes/dislikes, it's what he knows of Haley's character as well. And even if he does think they're Lawful Evil, he might feel that keeping the secret will probably just more harm than good anyway. Haley's justification for bothering to keep the secret is for the sake of being secretive, not becuase she's presented Durkon with any actual plan: "we shouldn't show them all our cards" is not a plan. It feels like she hasn't actually thought of how the secret applied to thier situation -- she's doing it because that's her impulse.

There are probably a few good reasons why she should keep this a secret. There are probably a few others as to why she should not. But these arguments for or against doesn't seem to be in anything she presents to Durkon. "We shouldn't show them all our cards" is a non-answer. How does this make thier situation any better? How would it likely matter? In fact all it could do is make Tarquin less cordial if he ever found out they were lying to him. In fact he might already sense that they are, and could point out later that if they're going to lie, they might as well make it about something useful.



3) Speaking personally, Haley has earned my trust and respect both for her wisdom and for her tactical skill. If she says 'keep something secret', I'll damn well keep it secret. Especially if you're in an environment where infiltration/rogue skills may come in handy.

That's fine. You're not Durkon.



If the Order was in the temple of Thor, I'd expect Haley to shut up and follow Durkon's lead. In the middle of a stronghold surrounded by evil people, I'll follow the rogue's lead. She's got more expertise in this than Durkon did.

Uhhhh, huh? One would think logic would dictate that if they were on the mean streets of the city, you would follow the Rogue's Lead. In fact Durkon follows her lead, nominally, in battle as well.

Currently they're at a meal in high society with people Durkon may not be sure are evil, one of whom is a fellow Cleric. If anything, from Durkon's POV, he'd be just equipped as Haley in the situation, if not more. Saying the above pretty much says you're almost never going to follow Durkon's leave unless you're in a temple of Thor.

[Ladorak]

Durkon's probably right about Malack as well. If Haley was using her head a bit more she'd probably have sussed by now that the only person standing in Tarquin's way is... well, you know already. So Durkon is wrong, but only because he's misjudged someone he's only met for like... 5 seconds

[Nimrod's Son]

If I were in Durkon's shoes, I'd have responded with rolling my eyes and saying "Already I feel like I've known this lass my entire life, but it's only been ..." then look at her, let her lie, then grumble and say "Well, it may have been a little longer than THAT. Crazy humans, eh?"

Find some way to steer the chancellor away from the matter of my acquaintance with Haley onto our common ground of being nonhumans amidst these crazy human people. It shouldn't be hard to do.
...And supposing Malack replied with, "So, how long would you say you'd known her, then?"...?


He doesn't even seem to know there is slave labor in this place. It's obvious to us becuase we've read all the comics so far, but Durkon's only seen so much.
He's seen the guys serving drinks with irons clamped around their necks, if that counts for anything.

[Ellye]

I like Durkon. He gives a good example about how a character can be extremely Lawful without being completely oblivious to the world at large. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to lie to someone.If that's not being extremely oblivious and gullible, than I'm paranoid (which is, definitely, a possibility).

One thing is not wanting to lie. But sometimes our "wants" need to sit down and shut up for our "needs" to take priority.

[Swordpriest]

If that's not being extremely oblivious and gullible, than I'm paranoid (which is, definitely, a possibility).

One thing is not wanting to lie. But sometimes our "wants" need to sit down and shut up for our "needs" to take priority.

Except that to me, and perhaps to some others here as well, Haley's lies at the moment appear to be suicidally thin and impossible to keep up. A complex lie involving multiple people who are in the spotlight, and who have had literally no chance to rehearse the lie together beforehand and have no idea of what the others are planning to say, is a recipe for disaster. Swift, certain disaster.

Especially when you're being watched by two ruthless, cold, intelligent people who have moved in Machiavellian circles for most of their lives.

[Valifor]

Except that to me, and perhaps to some others here as well, Haley's lies at the moment appear to be suicidally thin and impossible to keep up. A complex lie involving multiple people who are in the spotlight, and who have had literally no chance to rehearse the lie together beforehand and have no idea of what the others are planning to say, is a recipe for disaster. Swift, certain disaster.

Especially when you're being watched by two ruthless, cold, intelligent people who have moved in Machiavellian circles for most of their lives.

This. Exactly this. given the situation, since the only one very adept at lying here is Haley, and they all have to think of new excuses and lies on the spot in front of two intelligent leaders of a LE nation, then lying is a very BAD idea if you want to avoid trouble. i think people keep forgetting that these aren't just other adventurers or random people. they control an entire NATION. piss them off enough, and they can have you KILLED! (examples being Gannji and Enor, of course.) and lying to their faces when there is NO GOOD REASON TO is a surefire way to piss at least one of them off.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

“We have never met before” isn’t a thin lie. It’s very plausible. The only possibly troublesome lie from having to think on their feet is the whole “Haley worships Thor” bit, which was only necessary because Durkon deliberately spoiled “We haven’t met.”


and lying to their faces when there is NO GOOD REASON TO is a surefire way to piss at least one of them off.
No good reason to play your cards close when dealing with the bloody evil slaving tyrants that are holding your teammates prisoner and forcing them to fight in the gladitorial arena?

Let me know what a good reason to keep secrets would be.

[Querzis]

No good reason to play your cards close when dealing with the bloody evil slaving tyrants that are holding your teammates prisoner and forcing them to fight in the gladitorial arena?

Let me know what a good reason to keep secrets would be.

Yes, no good reason at all because, once again, not only are they bound to discover its a lie and will probably be pretty pissed about it but mostly because it really doesnt change anything. Even if they dont know Durkon is their allies, so what? Hes still a cleric of Thor so Malack obviously wont do anything evil in front of him and not saying Durkon is their ally might even make thing worse because then he has no reason to hang around with the rest of the OOTS (and if he does despite having no reason to, once again, the lie will be quickly discovered.) So basically, all Haley little lie does even if it somehow work, is that Durkon will be calmly discussing theology with Malack when Tarquin decide to kill the rest of the team.

Bottom line is, I'm annoyed at Haley here, not Durkon. Her lie is bound to be discovered and really doesnt give them much of a tactical advantage against Tarquin and Malack if they betray them anyway. Lately, it seems to me that Haley has been lying mostly out of habit, Elan is not the only one you should tell the truth to you know!

[Nilan8888]

He's seen the guys serving drinks with irons clamped around their necks, if that counts for anything.

... point granted.


Except that to me, and perhaps to some others here as well, Haley's lies at the moment appear to be suicidally thin and impossible to keep up. A complex lie involving multiple people who are in the spotlight, and who have had literally no chance to rehearse the lie together beforehand and have no idea of what the others are planning to say, is a recipe for disaster. Swift, certain disaster.

Especially when you're being watched by two ruthless, cold, intelligent people who have moved in Machiavellian circles for most of their lives.

Exactly. It's now a forced charade they have to keep going for the sake of information that doesn't give them a clear advantage by concealing.

Maybe Tarquin might up and order Elan and all his friends be imprisoned, leaving Durkon free becuase he's not associated with them? Sure, MAYBE that might happen... but then it's just as likely that getting caught in this lie might land them all in jail when they would have otherwise been fine.

Tarquin might be the sort of guy who won't mind in any event and understand why they feel the impulse to lie. But what if he's not?



No good reason to play your cards close when dealing with the bloody evil slaving tyrants that are holding your teammates prisoner and forcing them to fight in the gladitorial arena?

Again, "playing your cards" is not a cause and effect diagram. It's at best just trying to keep certain doors open in the case certain scenarios arise in which concealing this information might be useful. And even if Tarquin were to turn on them, the liklihood that concealing Durkon's allegiance to the OOTS would be of use to them is STILL very thin. It presupposes a lot of things happening. Meanwhile it's just as likely, if not more, that going through all these hoops to keep those very doors open will land them in the sort of situation that they're trying to avoid.

You know what's worse than not playing your cards? Palming cards of questionable worth when playing with experienced card players. If you're going to do it, make certain the info is really important, like the quest for the Gates: that I can totally understand.

[pendell]

...And supposing Malack replied with, "So, how long would you say you'd known her, then?"...?


I would respond with "Clearly, not long enough."

Tolkien in the Hobbit had it exactly right when Bilbo spoke to the dragon. Riddling talk is the way to go when you don't want to tell the plain truth (very wise when speaking to a dragon) nor want to lie (which is also very wise).

Of course, it is possible that Malack will conversationally corner Durkon to the point where he will be forced to lie or tell the plain truth ... but this is a dinner party and small talk, not an interrogation. Durkon has demonstrated enough of a wisdom skill he should be able to deflect the questioning without overmuch concern.

Plus ... I get the distinct impression Malack is somewhat gullible, extending credibility to Durkon as a fellow priest even when it's not really due. See how Durkon got away from him to attempt to rescue Elan and Haley.

I don't really like being less than forthcoming with Malack, given his seeming-trusting nature. But I would like getting the party thrown into the arena by accident far less. "He who keeps his lips keepeth his life".

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Swordpriest]

Well, in this situation, they don't need to tell "the whole truth and nothing but the truth." In fact, they should be cautious. However, the best lies are the ones with a strong element of truth in them, since they are more believable and easier to keep straight. Haley's making stuff up whole cloth, not just concealing some matters but making a flamboyant, unnecessary, bizarrely-contrived story that's going to go down like a CR 1 monster as soon as any scrutiny is directed at it.

Heck, Tarquin is probably genre-savvy enough to know that Elan, a protagonist, is likely to be part of an adventuring party. Such a party typically has a rogue, a fighter, a healer (cleric or druid), a mage, and one or two other members.

So a bunch of foreigners who, together, would logically make up a D&D adventuring party all show up simultaneously, on the same day and in the same place. Is it really going to be that hard for him to put two and two together? :smallconfused:

[Nilan8888]

So a bunch of foreigners who, together, would logically make up a D&D adventuring party all show up simultaneously, on the same day and in the same place. Is it really going to be that hard for him to put two and two together?

Right -- saying that he'd esily his son as part of an adventuring party with all the requisite members being part of a list might be a bit of a stretch... I guess depending on if Rich wants to make that joke or not... but it's not much of a stretch for Tarquin to be observing all this and figuring out what the basic situation is. Adventuring party or not he should understand his son is much like his mother (V said as much right in front of him), is a protagonist (Tarquin has said as much in front of... himself) and a general good guy. Apparently he's got nothing against that which we've seen. Suddenly a Dwarf from the same continent shows up. That's going to look suspicious to him even if Durkon and Haley WEREN'T whispering to one another the entire time.

Malack probably doesn't notice it because his general interest in all these guests pretty much dropped off the map once he learned Elan really wasn't Nale. Beyond that he's interested in making small talk with Durkon but otherwise doesn't seem to care that Elan, Haley and V are in the palace at all. Tarquin, however, is interested because Elan is his son, and with his interest in the dramatic might be interested in the problems of other people just in the general sense (although seeing how he's LE, he's not necessarily interested in SOLVING any of those problems).

Depending on the writer's decision Tarquin is in a place where he could conceivably know a lot more than he's letting on since Elan showed up by just paying observing what's in front of him and paying attention to the paperwork coming through the palace (which he has been doing at a least a little bit since he's noticed Gannji was arrested). He at this point could already know Elan has six, rather than three, friends in town, and that Haley specifically does not trust him while Elan does.

He might incorrectly presume Haley is the leader of the OOTS though, since at best Roy's just a name on a piece of paper to him at the moment.

[Valifor]

“We have never met before” isn’t a thin lie. It’s very plausible. The only possibly troublesome lie from having to think on their feet is the whole “Haley worships Thor” bit, which was only necessary because Durkon deliberately spoiled “We haven’t met.”


No good reason to play your cards close when dealing with the bloody evil slaving tyrants that are holding your teammates prisoner and forcing them to fight in the gladitorial arena?

Let me know what a good reason to keep secrets would be.

except that while it's a very plausible lie, it's hard to keep up when you do know each other and havent practiced your story. Elan's slip up is a good example, he accidentally said Durkon was a cleric of Thor when he has absolutely no way of knowing that. Tarquin is probably only pretending to believe that anyways. things like that will keep happening, where somebody isn't going to be able to keep their story consistently straight (most likely Durkon or Elan, Haley's too good at lying for that) and they WILL be discovered. which will get those "bloody evil slaving tyrants" very pissed off at them. especially when you consider WHAT the secret that they're keeping is: that they know each other. if Malack and Tarquin knew that, that would not change a damn thing. If they were lying to them about the location of a gate, or Haley's father, or even her weakness against pickles, then i would understand. but this lie is completely unneeded, foolish, and just plain stupid. and it will cause way more trouble then it ever would have prevented.

[slayerx]

Three reasons:

1) Haley is second in command of the order. As ranking officer on scene, she has the right to determine party policy WRT dealing with outsiders .


Funny I seem to recall one time when Roy and Haley wanted to just beat up a paladin and leave... that resulted in them getting dragged away in chains as opposed to s nice easy ride. I also seem to recall a time when Roy and Haley tried to break out of prison and were nearly caught for doing so. All in all, the whole affair would have went A LOT smoother if they just followed DURKON'S lead

My point... Party Leaders DO NOT always make the best/right decisions


In this case, the fact that they are trying to carry on a lie alone is a dangerous game since getting caught in their lie will only serve to screw them over and insult their hosts. Hell in the first 5 panels, Elan is already managing obvious slip ups. I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin was already putting two and two together

One thing I would ask is what will happen when the Chancellar shows up... Didn't Durkon claim that he was hear to inquire about some prisoners? What exactly is he gonna ask him about? He may be able to follow suit on Roy and Belkar, but that would eventually mean getting to the point where he has to mention who EXACTLY he's talking about...

Really being truthful would make things much simpler, as he could say that he was here for Elan and thus they can let Roy and Belkar sit and wait with no one ever knowing their relation to the order. Frankly it makes me think Roy would be running things differently; While he would not trust Tarquin, he would likely think it impossible for all of them to maintain an lie and thus would rather tell the truth to maintain their ability to be good guests... Hell getting caught in their lie could ruin a chance to get info on Girard

Actually, one thing i'd also add is that not every person is a good liar and and come up with good lies on the spot... For someone who has spent his whole life telling the truth, Durkon is probably not someone who could easily come up with a CONVINCING lie even if he wanted to... he pulled off some good half-truths on Miko, but keeping this up for 3 days?

[Nilan8888]

In this case, the fact that they are trying to carry on a lie alone is a dangerous game since getting caught in their lie will only serve to screw them over and insult their hosts. Hell in the first 5 panels, Elan is already managing obvious slip ups. I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin was already putting two and two together

I suspect what might happen is that Tarquin actually won't mind so much. Malack may or may not care because he might blame Durkon for the lies and feel it as something of an insult. And Durkon might see fit to apologize.

But Tarquin may... sort of... get it. He may reserve the right to give Haley some rough treatment later about it (no, not THAT kind of treatment), but I suspect he's smart enough not to just know that they're lying but WHY they're lying: they don't trust him. And if he were in their shoes, would he trust himself after getting dragged in and almost fed to a Dragon and shoved off a balcony? Probably not.

Tarquin's been an adventurer, so he's been there.

But given he does have a streak of pettiness it might mean Haley might find herself in a situation where Tarquin's troops might say, save Elan, Durkon and V from a sticky situation and... forget to rescue Haley, that sort of thing.

[Valifor]

I suspect what might happen is that Tarquin actually won't mind so much. Malack may or may not care because he might blame Durkon for the lies and feel it as something of an insult. And Durkon might see fit to apologize.

But Tarquin may... sort of... get it. He may reserve the right to give Haley some rough treatment later about it (no, not THAT kind of treatment), but I suspect he's smart enough not to just know that they're lying but WHY they're lying: they don't trust him. And if he were in their shoes, would he trust himself after getting dragged in and almost fed to a Dragon and shoved off a balcony? Probably not.

Tarquin's been an adventurer, so he's been there.

But given he does have a streak of pettiness it might mean Haley might find herself in a situation where Tarquin's troops might say, save Elan, Durkon and V from a sticky situation and... forget to rescue Haley, that sort of thing.

just because he's been there and might understand doesn't mean he won't be pissed. especially since it's not just Haley lying. to him, he's hosting a banquet for his son, and Haley is outright insulting him by not trusting that he'd welcome his son's companions, which he ALREADY HAS. plus, what exactly could he do with the info that they knew each other? whatever the answer, the exact same things he could do knowing that V, Elan, and Haley know each other, since any evil action based on that info would involve Elan or Haley or whoever HAVING companions, not mattering who they are. in fact, it might help them, since Durkon seems to have gotten on Malack's good side, it'd make the whole party look better to the two dictators. in other words, the lies in question and the reasons for the lies have no actual point other than satisfying Haley's paranoia and need to hide everything from everybody.

[Trixie]

This lie is completely unneeded, foolish, and just plain stupid. and it will cause way more trouble then it ever would have prevented.

Really, pretty much any action of Haley can be called such. Even Belkar seems more useful at times (especially at big fights).


just because he's been there and might understand doesn't mean he won't be pissed. especially since it's not just Haley lying. to him, he's hosting a banquet for his son, and Haley is outright insulting him by not trusting that he'd welcome his son's companions, which he ALREADY HAS.

This. They're pissing away goodwill Tarqin was in no way expected to give them by spitting in his face. They're lying to authorities, probably breaking dozen laws, and for what? For a self-fulfilling, egoistical paranoia?

Gee, Haley, keep this up for a day and EoB will really want to get you.

As much as I dislike Durkon's stiffness, he was handling the situation well, much better than this farce that will only lead to a crash.

Remember her poisonous father and grandma incident? It was featured in comic for a reason.

[slayerx]

what exactly could he do with the info that they knew each other?
Well to be fair...
If tarquin believes that Durkon is unrelated to the group he is less likely to take action against him should he choose to try something against V, Elan, and Haley... The fact that Durkon is on friendly terms with Malack makes it even less likely. If tarquin were to try something Haley does like having the advantage of Durkon being able to take them by surprise if he is there at the time, or if he is not there, be free to mount a rescue... if they know that Durkon is part of their group, Tarquin will be sure to take care of him aswell. This also lends reason as to why they did not tell him about Roy and Belkar seeing as they are effectively already at his mercy.


Granted, Haley's cover up really doesn't help towards that... Making Durkon her priest does put him in a friendly enough position to warrant Tarquin's attention should he plan to do something. A better lie would have been trying to come with a random meeting like saying they met sometime ago in the last city they were in... but hey she had to come up with something on the spot (probably should have thought ahead)


So i would say that Haley's plan does have purpose and she does have enough reasons to be paranoid about Tarquin (hell Nale initially came off as friendly and inviting)... but her plan is built on poor execution of trying to maintain these lies which can prove to be disastrous whether she's right or wrong. Really, if anything, a better plan would have been for Durkon to remain separate from the group (like hanging out in the city)... no chance of slipping up and getting caught in their lie, and they wouldn't need to step all over Durkon's values

[Kish]

Well to be fair...
If tarquin believes that Durkon is unrelated to the group he is less likely to take action against him should he choose to try something against V, Elan, and Haley...

And more likely to take action against him should he decide that, while he doesn't want to harm any friend of his son's, the Empire won't miss one random cleric of Thor who just met said son.

Beyond that, Haley having reasoned beyond "we could tell the truth to Tarquin or lie to him" is an assumption. She was quite clear about her father having taught her to lie by default.

[Kranden]

If you notice the only people Durkon ever seems to get along with are lawful types, heck he sent Hilgya away when he discovered she shrugged off her lawful duties. If you look at the conversation between Durkon and Malack you can see him opening up to somebody who has things in common with him. Durkon has trouble finding links with people he does not share anything in common with but when he does he can relate to them. I mean he obviously has no love for Belkar but the only time I can remember them remotely enjoying each others company was the drinking countdown in Azure city.

[slayerx]

And more likely to take action against him should he decide that, while he doesn't want to harm any friend of his son's, the Empire won't miss one random cleric of Thor who just met said son.

Tarquin: "hey Malack you won't mind if I kill your new friend because he happened to meet my son at the party right? Y'know maybe I should just kill every person my son just happened to come in contact with since he arrived."



Beyond that, Haley having reasoned beyond "we could tell the truth to Tarquin or lie to him" is an assumption. She was quite clear about her father having taught her to lie by default.

I think Haley made it quite clear why she was lying to them... She has plenty of reason to think they are both evil (plus their past experience with Nale only proves that friendly behavior is not necessarily a good sign), and she wants to make sure that she still has a few aces up her sleeve and fewer exposed weaknesses when it comes time for Tarquin's sudden and inevitable betrayal.

IF she were dealing with people she thought were good, she might still hesitate to tell the truth, but she would not fight Durkon as had as she has been doing right now...

[Gray Mage]

Tarquin: "hey Malack you won't mind if I kill your new friend because he happened to meet my son at the party right? Y'know maybe I should just kill every person my son just happened to come in contact with since he arrived."


Yes, he's actually more likely to try and kill his sons friend than the guy he just met n the party.


I think Haley made it quite clear why she was lying to them... She has plenty of reason to think they are both evil (plus their past experience with Nale only proves that friendly behavior is not necessarily a good sign), and she wants to make sure that she still has a few aces up her sleeve and fewer exposed weaknesses when it comes time for Tarquin's sudden and inevitable betrayal.

IF she were dealing with people she thought were good, she might still hesitate to tell the truth, but she would not fight Durkon as had as she has been doing right now...

The thing is it's not really an ace in their sleeve, it's more like a nine or ten. Could be usefull, sure, but it's not really worth having to lie for that. It could just make Tarquin decide to do what Haley fears, be suspicious of them, which might lead the real card in the sleeve, the gates, to be found out and might lose a potential ally against T, Malack. Even in the case Tarquin really betrays them for some reason and Durkon isn't in prison/arena with them, it could be actually worse, as having a cleric with them is a smart move, beside the order will be even more separated, which might force Durkon to choose between which group to save.

[Bongos]

In my opinion Haley has turned a potential asset into a liability. Durkon who is now friends with Malack will soon be that lying little dwarf.

Poor decision making on Haley's part. Very poor.

[B. Dandelion]

I vehemently disagree with the OP. When even Belkar is getting character development, there's no excuse for Durkon to languish behind. I don't have to fall in love with his personality, I just have to find it believable.

That said I haven't had a problem with him lately. I understand his motives and I haven't found him to be particularly lawful stupid just for disagreeing with Haley, especially when the comic is humorously lampshading her over-the-top paranoia with comments about marsupials secretly packing heat.

[The Pink Ninja]

He has been extremely annoying since he started this whole obey the laws of evil governments nonsense.

I seem to recall in the 3rd edition players handbook it says a Law Good person won't do exactly that.

[Urist McDwarf]

He has been extremely annoying since he started this whole obey the laws of evil governments nonsense.

I seem to recall in the 3rd edition players handbook it says a Law Good person won't do exactly that.

It would be lawful stupid of him to go around fighting the evil government when his friends are it's guests and/or prisoners.

Also, I dissagree with the OP. It is completely rediculous to not want character development when even BELKAR gets it.

[slayerx]

The thing is it's not really an ace in their sleeve, it's more like a nine or ten. Could be usefull, sure, but it's not really worth having to lie for that. It could just make Tarquin decide to do what Haley fears, be suspicious of them, which might lead the real card in the sleeve, the gates, to be found out and might lose a potential ally against T, Malack. Even in the case Tarquin really betrays them for some reason and Durkon isn't in prison/arena with them, it could be actually worse, as having a cleric with them is a smart move, beside the order will be even more separated, which might force Durkon to choose between which group to save.
Which is why we can not expect Tarquin to keep them together. If he imprisons them he will likely be smart enough to keep them separated from the casters... not to mention that tarquin would be smart enough to take away Durkon's holy symbol. he might even place Elan and Haley in separate cells...

Wizards would be unlikely to put into an arena since that would mean giving them a chance to use their magic... If you want to keep a wizard imprisoned then your best option is too keep them tied up so they have access to very few of their spells... or to kill them right away ofcourse...

Hell, even if they are all killed, if Durkon is free he can find a way to recover their bodies and resurrect them

[Gray Mage]

Which is why we can not expect Tarquin to keep them together. If he imprisons them he will likely be smart enough to keep them separated from the casters... not to mention that tarquin would be smart enough to take away Durkon's holy symbol. he might even place Elan and Haley in separate cells...

Tarquin do not have a reason to imprison his son and his friends, but Haley might be giving him one. Besides, if Tarquin decides to imprison them, which is unlikely as of now, having the other power behind the throne is good for the order, and if Malack finds out that Durkon is lying, he could turn against them too.

[137beth]

I vehemently disagree with the OP. When even Belkar is getting character development, there's no excuse for Durkon to languish behind. I don't have to fall in love with his personality, I just have to find it believable.

That said I haven't had a problem with him lately. I understand his motives and I haven't found him to be particularly lawful stupid just for disagreeing with Haley, especially when the comic is humorously lampshading her over-the-top paranoia with comments about marsupials secretly packing heat.

Yes, Durkon really should get character development. But I do understand Haley's suspicion: Tarquin is lawful evil, and could betray them just as easily as Nale.

[Marnath]

In my opinion Haley has turned a potential asset into a liability. Durkon who is now friends with Malack will soon be that lying little dwarf.

Poor decision making on Haley's part. Very poor.

I disagree. She is keeping an asset hidden in case Tarquin turns on them. If they are betrayed and imprisoned Durkon can help them, he can't do that if he's arrested too just because the OoTS are too stupid and trusting to see the betrayal coming. I don't agree with the posters implying that she's just being needlessly paranoid either. Umm, hello? Look where they are, in the heart of an evil empire that would think nothing of enslaving and/or murdering them. Plus, name one time aside from when Nale impersonated Elan where her instincts failed the OoTS.

[B. Dandelion]

Yes, Durkon really should get character development. But I do understand Haley's suspicion: Tarquin is lawful evil, and could betray them just as easily as Nale.

Ideally I think we're supposed to understand both Haley's suspicion but also Durkon's reasoning against it, without reducing either of them to caricatures.

I think Haley's right to be suspicious, but I am skeptical as to what they really gain from this deception that makes it worth the risk. If Durkon thinks they should trust him entirely, I disagree, but I think he is just reacting to Haley's extremism in the other direction, which is to lie about absolutely EVERYTHING on pure reflex.