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WarKitty
2010-08-19, 10:37 AM
This is a rant, just FYI. I am not pretending to be super-logical right now.

My group plays 3.5. I admittedly am not the best roleplayer in the world. My problem, though, is every time I come up with a cool concept, I get told "you can't play that without a significant power cost." Want a druid that uses only natural materials? No decent armor for your companion unless you shell out all your starting gold, and you can forget about that spear you wanted because stone isn't an allowable material. Trying to build a rogue with an eastern flavor? You'll have to burn 2 or 3 feats on exotic weapon proficency. They're not in themselves lower-powered ideas, but there is no way to stat them without either constantly bugging the DM for exceptions or seriously nerfing your character.

So, basically, I have 3 options here:

(1) play a suboptimal character
(2) optimize a character and forget roleplaying
(3) build a character that fits one of the limited archetypes that D&D allows so I can have something roleplayable that doesn't suck.

awa
2010-08-19, 10:39 AM
that has nothing to do with storm wind.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 10:42 AM
that has nothing to do with storm wind.

The connection is that you get pushed into a situation where stormwind isn't a fallacy...you can either optimize or you can have a decent character concept. Or at least if you want a character that's both well conceptualized and optimized you're limited to a few archetypes.

Caphi
2010-08-19, 10:42 AM
Can't you just, like, be a rogue with an eastern flavor? Do you really need a sai to feel eastern enough?

Also this has nothing to do with Stormwind, as awa said.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 10:46 AM
Can't you just, like, be a rogue with an eastern flavor? Do you really need a sai to feel eastern enough?

Also this has nothing to do with Stormwind, as awa said.

Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons?

The druid one's my biggest pet peeve at the moment. You can't have any sort of BLADE with natural materials.

dsmiles
2010-08-19, 10:47 AM
This is where the rule of cool comes into play.

Personally, I'd allow the eastern rogue. Too easy, make WP substitutions for eastern weapons that have the same-ish damage and critical properties. Natural materials driud? Also easy, the 3.5 DMG lists pre-iron age materials (Bronze, stone, and I believe bone and wood).

To you I say, "They see you rollin'. They hatin'."

awa
2010-08-19, 10:48 AM
the storm wind fallacy is when some one says that a character who is optimized cant be well role played that's it.

hamishspence
2010-08-19, 10:48 AM
Arms & Equipment Guide does suggest that many weapons are similar in nature.

A wakihashi (sic) is basically, a short sword- a rogue with a short sword can simply be described as wielding the Eastern weapon.

Serpentine
2010-08-19, 10:48 AM
If you were "eastern" in my game, you'd be from a particular area. I'd rework the weapon types to make the "eastern" weapons nonexotic for you (already done it for America-style areas).
For your druid, for starters, how is stone not natural? :smallconfused: For seconds, there's plenty of other materials to use that're just as good. Maybe a bit more expensive, but that depends.

I dunno, I don't think your argument is fair. If you decide to do something a bit weird, it's probably gonna be a bit trickier to wrangle unless you negotiate with your DM *shrug*

Keld Denar
2010-08-19, 10:49 AM
Or...you could ask the playground? We are pretty good at optimizing a concept around a set of constraints like, a weapon, or a fighting style, or whatever...as long as you aren't too married to your class.

Also, all of the asian influence weapons suck, as stated. Kusiri-Gama is like, the only good one. Just take away the EWP reqs, or make them simple weapons, since a good portion of them are derived from common farming impliments.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 10:49 AM
This is where the rule of cool comes into play.

Personally, I'd allow the eastern rogue. Too easy, make WP substitutions for eastern weapons that have the same-ish damage and critical properties. Natural materials driud? Also easy, the 3.5 DMG lists pre-iron age materials (Bronze, stone, and I believe bone and wood).

To you I say, "They see you rollin'. They hatin'."

Where is this? I've read through the DMG and couldn't find anything like it.


Or...you could ask the playground? We are pretty good at optimizing a concept around a set of constraints like, a weapon, or a fighting style, or whatever...as long as you aren't too married to your class.

Also, all of the asian influence weapons suck, as stated. Kusiri-Gama is like, the only good one. Just take away the EWP reqs, or make them simple weapons, since a good portion of them are derived from common farming impliments.

The concept right now is your standard druid/animal companion hunting combo...armor on both druid and wolf companion, druid uses a spear or other throwing weapon. All natural materials, best companion armor I can afford. Starting budget of 700gp at level 3.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-19, 10:50 AM
This is a rant, just FYI.

My group plays 3.5. I admittedly am not the best roleplayer in the world. My problem, though, is every time I come up with a cool concept, I get told "you can't play that without a significant power cost." Want a druid that uses only natural materials? No decent armor for your companion unless you shell out all your starting gold, and you can forget about that spear you wanted because stone isn't an allowable material. Trying to build a rogue with an eastern flavor? You'll have to burn 2 or 3 feats on exotic weapon proficency. They're not in themselves lower-powered ideas, but there is no way to stat them without either constantly bugging the DM for exceptions or seriously nerfing your character.

So, basically, I have 3 options here:

(1) play a suboptimal character
(2) optimize a character and forget roleplaying
(3) build a character that fits one of the limited archetypes that D&D allows so I can have something roleplayable that doesn't suck.

I'm confused: Hide, Leather, Padded, etc are completely natural.
You can totally afford Leather barding till you gain a few levels.

Why do you need exotic weapons to be eastern?
You know what a Sai is? A dagger.
You know what a Kama is? A sickle.
The only thing that is eastern and can't be replicated? Shuriken.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-19, 10:51 AM
This is a rant, just FYI.

My group plays 3.5. I admittedly am not the best roleplayer in the world. My problem, though, is every time I come up with a cool concept, I get told "you can't play that without a significant power cost." Want a druid that uses only natural materials? No decent armor for your companion unless you shell out all your starting gold, and you can forget about that spear you wanted because stone isn't an allowable material. Trying to build a rogue with an eastern flavor? You'll have to burn 2 or 3 feats on exotic weapon proficency. They're not in themselves lower-powered ideas, but there is no way to stat them without either constantly bugging the DM for exceptions or seriously nerfing your character.

So, basically, I have 3 options here:

(1) play a suboptimal character
(2) optimize a character and forget roleplaying
(3) build a character that fits one of the limited archetypes that D&D allows so I can have something roleplayable that doesn't suck.

Counts-as is your ally. Say that your eastern weapons are mechanically identical to short bows, daggers, short swords etc.

Say that your spear is sharpened stone. Who cares? If your DM does, he's doing it wrong.

Edit:


The only thing that is eastern and can't be replicated? Shuriken.

Throwing knives?

awa
2010-08-19, 10:52 AM
I sorta agree for example two weapon fighting and sword and board are inferior to two handed power attacking by a substantial margin.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 10:54 AM
I'm confused: Hide, Leather, Padded, etc are completely natural.
You can totally afford Leather barding till you gain a few levels.

Why do you need exotic weapons to be eastern?
You know what a Sai is? A dagger.
You know what a Kama is? A sickle.
The only thing that is eastern and can't be replicated? Shuriken.

The annoyance is that I can ALSO afford scale or breastplate on my companion, and I don't want to give up more than 1 point of AC off what I can afford.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-19, 10:54 AM
Counts-as is your ally. Say that your eastern weapons are mechanically identical to short bows, daggers, short swords etc.

Say that your spear is sharpened stone. Who cares? If your DM does, he's doing it wrong.

Edit:



Throwing knives?

Throwing knives require Quick draw so a tiny bit feat intensive (although moast throwers trake the feat anyway so cie la ve).

LibraryOgre
2010-08-19, 10:55 AM
Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons?

Like a knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tant%C5%8D)?

Or a short sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja-to)?

Or, since most people don't view darts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dart_%28missile%29) as plumbata-types, and instead view them as "pub darts" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darts), call them "shuriken" and you're in business.

What is so terribly Eastern that you feel it can't be represented by the rogue weapon list?

awa
2010-08-19, 10:56 AM
those have armor check penalties and animal companions have no armor proficiencies

Caphi
2010-08-19, 10:57 AM
The annoyance is that I can ALSO afford scale or breastplate on my companion, and I don't want to give up more than 1 point of AC off what I can afford.

The companion has more than enough HP at first level and that along with his natural armor will only build as you level. I'm not sure why you're married to opening with ironwood or whatever your goal is. It's not going to put nearly as big a dent in your power or your concept as you seem to think.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 10:58 AM
Like a knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tant%C5%8D)?

Or a short sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja-to)?

Or, since most people don't view darts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dart_%28missile%29) as plumbata-types, and instead view them as "pub darts" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darts), call them "shuriken" and you're in business.

What is so terribly Eastern that you feel it can't be represented by the rogue weapon list?

Shuriken, mostly. Although I'm rather fond of the design on the sai, there's just no western equivalent.

dsmiles
2010-08-19, 10:58 AM
Where is this? I've read through the DMG and couldn't find anything like it.

Sorry, I'm AFB. But it's in the place where it talks about increasing and decreasing the technology level.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 11:00 AM
those have armor check penalties and animal companions have no armor proficiencies

Wartrained provides proficencies. And I can deal with armor check penalties. Why wouldn't I want as much AC on the companion as I can? I'm an optimizer who's trying to learn to roleplay, having to give up power means the game isn't as fun for me.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-19, 11:01 AM
Throwing knives require Quick draw so a tiny bit feat intensive (although moast throwers trake the feat anyway so cie la ve).

Probably worth it for the whole 'I'm totally unarmed FULL ATTACK THROWN SNEAK ATTACK LOL'

Daggers get a concealment bonus right?

DanReiv
2010-08-19, 11:02 AM
Play the Shaman from OA :smallbiggrin:

Can't be more eastern, also quite a little OP class.

dsmiles
2010-08-19, 11:11 AM
Wartrained provides proficencies. And I can deal with armor check penalties. Why wouldn't I want as much AC on the companion as I can? I'm an optimizer who's trying to learn to roleplay, having to give up power means the game isn't as fun for me.

Not mutually exclusive, and you don't have to pigeonhole your character to roleplay. If you want to roleplay, start by learning to write a backstory to explain why your character is what he/she is and does what he/she does. At first, they'll probably be a little cliched (the kobolds killed my mommy, etc.), but if you keep at it, they will get better with time and practice.
Then inject a little "future goals" into that backstory, and give your character some interesting plot points that the DM can exploit to "hook" you into adventures. Then give your character some personality. You don't have to sacrifice mechanical optimization to roleplay, and learning to roleplay takes time and practice.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 11:11 AM
Sorry, I'm AFB. But it's in the place where it talks about increasing and decreasing the technology level.

Found it. Same problem, decreasing the technology level ends up with a significant nerf. Obsidian is sharp enough that certain modern surgical blades are made from it.


Not mutually exclusive, and you don't have to pigeonhole your character to roleplay. If you want to roleplay, start by learning to write a backstory to explain why your character is what he/she is and does what he/she does. At first, they'll probably be a little cliched (the kobolds killed my mommy, etc.), but if you keep at it, they will get better with time and practice.
Then inject a little "future goals" into that backstory, and give your character some interesting plot points that the DM can exploit to "hook" you into adventures. Then give your character some personality. You don't have to sacrifice mechanical optimization to roleplay, and learning to roleplay takes time and practice.

It's a little different problem. I'm good at optimization. I'm good at story writing. Once I come up with a character concept I usually have a very detailed idea of their personality, what they'd be like, etc. - down to the specific style of fighting they'd prefer, their favorite food, and so on. But then I try to build the character and they just won't work in the system without giving up part of the character that I have. Changing the little details just feels too wrong and I lose the attachment to the character.

dsmiles
2010-08-19, 11:19 AM
I don't know what to tell you, then. I start with a basic idea (for instance Evil Dominator). It's not a race and a class, just a concept. Then I think about the story, and put it on paper. Then I work the mechanics around the story. If it doesn't come out "optimized" it's not a big deal for me. It's my character, and it's what I want to play. (By the way, the "evil dominator" came out to be an evil human psion: telepath with the old 3.0 Shadowmind prc, and the Thrallherd prc.)
Sorry I can't be of more help.

jiriku
2010-08-19, 11:20 AM
I feel where you're coming from, warkitty.

Thing is, your druid role-playing concept involves intentionally using inferior materials. Essentially, you're Stormwinding yourself by deciding that your character can't come up with a philosophical justification for using 'modern' armor.

When American Indian tribes were exposed to European settlers, they quickly adopted metal knives and hatchets, mounted combat from horses, the use of stirrups, and even rifles. They still wore hides and lives in tents and hunted and gathered, but they weren't at all averse to using the most advanced war materials available.

Your character, for whatever reason, is that one woman in her tribe who's still stubbornly chipping out stone knives when everyone else has traded furs and skins for the white man's steel blades. She's the one plaiting bark straps and building armor out of leather, wood, shell, and whatever else she can find when her fellow tribesman are marching down to the local trading post and exchanging their wampum for Spanish breastplates made from Damascus steel and bound with sturdy metal buckles.

If it's any consolation, barkskin can solve all your troubles, and that's a trick that no real-world primitive peoples had available.

Aroka
2010-08-19, 11:22 AM
Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons?

Like what, the short sword (wakizashi), scimitar (dao), dagger (tanto), rapier (jian), longsword (jian, katana), spear, club, axe...?

Most simple and martial weapons aren't western, they just have English names.

Also, spears can be made entirely from wood. And stone is natural. (Then again, everything ever is "natural" because "nature" effectively means "universe". Metals are found in nature, that's where you get them, and working them is not philosophically any different from working wood.)

I think your point is still valid, though. If you want to play a fighter - just a fighter, no special tricks, maybe going for a realistic feel rather than a fantasy heroic feel - you'll suck (especially if you want to play, say, a knight-type dude with a sword and shield, rather than some kind of chain-tripper). Or a ranger with spells, animal companion, and a bow - you'll be terrible.

Zyme86
2010-08-19, 11:22 AM
Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons?

The druid one's my biggest pet peeve at the moment. You can't have any sort of BLADE with natural materials.

Make a hashashin (middle-eastern assassin, and the derivation of the name) themed rogue. And yes they used western weapons and eastern weapons regularly,

LibraryOgre
2010-08-19, 11:25 AM
Shuriken, mostly. Although I'm rather fond of the design on the sai, there's just no western equivalent.

Main-gauche, or parrying dagger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger)

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 11:25 AM
I feel where you're coming from, warkitty.

Thing is, your druid role-playing concept involves intentionally using inferior materials. Essentially, you're Stormwinding yourself by deciding that your character can't come up with a philosophical justification for using 'modern' armor.

When American Indian tribes were exposed to European settlers, they quickly adopted metal knives and hatchets, mounted combat from horses, the use of stirrups, and even rifles. They still wore hides and lives in tents and hunted and gathered, but they weren't at all averse to using the most advanced war materials available.

Your character, for whatever reason, is that one woman in her tribe who's still stubbornly chipping out stone knives when everyone else has traded furs and skins for the white man's steel blades. She's the one plaiting bark straps and building armor out of leather, wood, shell, and whatever else she can find when her fellow tribesman are marching down to the local trading post and exchanging their wampum for Spanish breastplates made from Damascus steel and bound with sturdy metal buckles.

If it's any consolation, barkskin can solve all your troubles, and that's a trick that no real-world primitive peoples had available.

You have a point. Of course, part of my frustration as well is the "druids can't wear metal armor...but anything else is fine" just makes no sense to me.

kamikasei
2010-08-19, 11:25 AM
Then I work the mechanics around the story. If it doesn't come out "optimized" it's not a big deal for me. It's my character, and it's what I want to play.
What if what you want to play, what you've described in the backstory, is a character who's better and more capable at X, Y and Z than the character you can build within the system? If your character can't mechanically accomplish the things that the concept says she should, then you have a problem.

Shademan
2010-08-19, 11:30 AM
Shuriken, mostly. Although I'm rather fond of the design on the sai, there's just no western equivalent.

sure there is. parrying daggers! http://images.4chan.org/gif/src/1282230602867.gif

ninjad. or should I say "eastern rogued"?

dsmiles
2010-08-19, 11:31 AM
What if what you want to play, what you've described in the backstory, is a character who's better and more capable at X, Y and Z than the character you can build within the system? If your character can't mechanically accomplish the things that the concept says she should, then you have a problem.

In theory, yes, you have a problem.

Personally, I try my best to know the limits of the system I am working with before I do any character stories. My first few characters within the system will be pretty much "Bob the Ranger, whose parents were killed by kobolds," or "Jim the non-specialist wizard who likes doughnuts for dinner." It's a drawback to doing the story first, but I enjoy gaming more when I have a solid story before I have a character sheet. Personal preference.

Comet
2010-08-19, 11:31 AM
(1) play a suboptimal character
(2) optimize a character and forget roleplaying
(3) build a character that fits one of the limited archetypes that D&D allows so I can have something roleplayable that doesn't suck.

4) Change either the group or the system. Something around your gaming table is enforcing a mindset of wargaming, archetypes and focus on combat performance that is not fun for you.

So, yeah, talk to your group. Try to get them into the idea of playing characters that aren't optimized for killing stuff. You might want to try out different systems while you're at it, changing things around makes the hobby that much more fun on the long run.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 11:34 AM
sure there is. parrying daggers! http://images.4chan.org/gif/src/1282230602867.gif

ninjad. or should I say "eastern rogued"?

Ok, no western equivalent that we have stats for in any of the books I own. :smallwink:


4) Change either the group or the system. Something around your gaming table is enforcing a mindset of wargaming, archetypes and focus on combat performance that is not fun for you.

So, yeah, talk to your group. Try to get them into the idea of playing characters that aren't optimized for killing stuff. You might want to try out different systems while you're at it, changing things around makes the hobby that much more fun on the long run.

I LOVE combat, that's the problem. I want to build warriors. I don't want to play a character that's not optimized for combat. It's more that the rest of the group is very rp-minded, and I'm feeling left out because I frankly want to kill something. I do enjoy roleplaying, but not at the expense of having the ability to smash.

Telonius
2010-08-19, 11:34 AM
You really want to make that Eastern Rogue with a minimum of fuss?

Master of Masks, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3) and ask the DM to count "Perform: Kabuki" as "Perform: Act." Congratulations, you now can use whatever Asian-named weapon you want.

EDIT: If you have a specific Eastern weapon in mind, you can use the Weapon Group Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) variant. As a Rogue, you have two groups available besides basic. Take the normal and Exotic groups as necessary.

Comet
2010-08-19, 11:39 AM
I LOVE combat, that's the problem. I want to build warriors. I don't want to play a character that's not optimized for combat. It's more that the rest of the group is very rp-minded, and I'm feeling left out because I frankly want to kill something. I do enjoy roleplaying, but not at the expense of having the ability to smash.

Okay, sorry about the confusion.
Still, I'm going to keep my suggestion the same. Try out a different system or find some other way to make cool characters without feeling constrained by what is "best" or "the strongest". Mind, I'm not the biggest fan of 3.X D&D to begin with.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 11:42 AM
Okay, sorry about the confusion.
Still, I'm going to keep my suggestion the same. Try out a different system or find some other way to make cool characters without feeling constrained by what is "best" or "the strongest". Mind, I'm not the biggest fan of 3.X D&D to begin with.

Actually, I think in this case the problem is the "no metal armor" thing to begin with. How the heck do you roleplay a character that can't wear metal armor, but is perfectly free to wield metal weapons and have their linked companion wear metal armor?

Psyx
2010-08-19, 11:42 AM
"Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons?"

What: Like daggers, short swords, curved swords, kinda-normal swords, crossbows, axes...?

Oh: you mean EXOTIC ones? Those are exotic even in the East though. If you think every bandit east of Baghdad wields a spiky chain, then you're mistaken.
Name a western weapon, and we could probably name pretty much the same thing in Chinese/Japanese/Indonesian.

"The druid one's my biggest pet peeve at the moment. You can't have any sort of BLADE with natural materials."

Yes you can. Obsidian makes a wickedly sharp blade. There's a few trees and whatnot mentioned in D&D fluff as well that are suitable.



But essentially: Yeah... sometimes you have to compromise optimising every darned thing on your character sheet for roleplay reasons and flavour reasons. In fact: Most of the time you do. You can either roleplay the best set of numbers you can and be content to get your kicks out of being better at a game that's un-winnable than the people playing on the same team as you. Or compromise those numbers a bit in order to make other parts of the game more interesting for you.

The fact that you WANT to roleplay in more depth means that... you want to do it. Hopefully you want to do it enough to make yourself maybe 5% less effective! I'm sure the party can take up the slack... :smallcool:

jiriku
2010-08-19, 11:43 AM
You have a point. Of course, part of my frustration as well is the "druids can't wear metal armor...but anything else is fine" just makes no sense to me.

You might consider using spells to solve your problem. For example, a quarterstaff + either shillelagh, brambles, or spikes is better than any bladed weapon. Leather or hide armor + barkskin will protect you as well as breastplate, and if you ride your animal companion, you can share spells with it too.

Apart from that, well, if your concept calls for a nature-based spellcaster who can wear metal armor, you're probably better off playing an archivist, a shaman or a cleric with the animal and plant domains than a druid, and acquiring an animal companion through a feat. All of those classes can wear metal armor, and have a nice selection of nature-themed spells. If you play an archivist or cloistered cleric, you can even get a passal of skill points for use on various nature-themed skills. D&D really does have room for almost any character concept, but what you're running up against here is that building character with very specific capabilities is quite difficult, and requires access to many books and lots of time spent studying them.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 11:44 AM
"Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons?"

What: Like daggers, short swords, curved swords, kinda-normal swords, crossbows, axes...?

Oh: you mean EXOTIC ones? Those are exotic even in the East though. If you think every bandit east of Baghdad wields a spiky chain, then you're mistaken.
Name a western weapon, and we could probably name pretty much the same thing in Chinese/Japanese/Indonesian.

"The druid one's my biggest pet peeve at the moment. You can't have any sort of BLADE with natural materials."

Yes you can. Obsidian makes a wickedly sharp blade. There's a few trees and whatnot mentioned in D&D fluff as well that are suitable.



But essentially: Yeah... sometimes you have to compromise optimising every darned thing on your character sheet for roleplay reasons and flavour reasons. In fact: Most of the time you do. You can either roleplay the best set of numbers you can and be content to get your kicks out of being better at a game that's un-winnable than the people playing on the same team as you. Or compromise those numbers a bit in order to make other parts of the game more interesting for you.

The fact that you WANT to roleplay in more depth means that... you want to do it. Hopefully you want to do it enough to make yourself maybe 5% less effective! I'm sure the party can take up the slack... :smallcool:

Usually I end up being the one that takes up the slack for the rest of the party so they don't get killed because they suck at combat.

Psyx
2010-08-19, 11:44 AM
"I do enjoy roleplaying, but not at the expense of having the ability to smash."

Find another gaming group?

Or so what... you reduce your ability to smash by a tiny amount. You're still ahead of your RP-centric group. And GMs place threats in line with party capabilities anyway. You're actually making things easier for yourself, by bringing the threat level down for the whole group.

Comet
2010-08-19, 11:45 AM
Actually, I think in this case the problem is the "no metal armor" thing to begin with. How the heck do you roleplay a character that can't wear metal armor, but is perfectly free to wield metal weapons and have their linked companion wear metal armor?


It's stupid, yeah. I'd make a comment about how some other things in the game are stupid too, but I think I have made my point already :smalltongue:

Personally, I'd just ignore/rewrite any parts of the book that I don't like or that just don't make sense. Dunno how that would sit with your group, though.

Prime32
2010-08-19, 11:48 AM
There's Fochlucan Lyrist, or worshipping Mielikki... I apologise for any spelling errors in this post.

Greenish
2010-08-19, 11:57 AM
There are quite a few decent combos one can pull with sword'n'board, and some precision damage makes TWF worthwhile.

Telonius
2010-08-19, 11:58 AM
Regarding the Druid ...

As far as I know (I'm afb at the moment) there is no rule in 3.5 that says Druids are prohibited from using any kind of weapon (with some minor exceptions like a metal shield bash or armor spikes). They're not proficient in it, but there are no penalties to spellcasting by using manufactured weapons. The only restriction is using metal armor or shields. I believe the reason they gave for this was that so much metal so close to the body would make the magical energies function improperly. There's nothing in the druid vows preventing them from picking up a sword.

For your character concept, I honestly can't see a stone (rather than wood/metal) spear mattering too much. Wild Shape is almost always better for combat anyway, the minor damage you'll be losing for having an inferior material really won't count much in the long run. (And if you're not planning on being in Wildshape very much, you'd probably be better off as a Cleric of Obad-Hai or Ehlonna - no weird armor restrictions, and you're still very nature-themed).

Just take Brew Potion, and call yourself a druid. Nobody will know the difference.
http://library.thinkquest.org/19592/asterix/miraculi.gif

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 11:59 AM
Regarding the Druid ...

As far as I know (I'm afb at the moment) there is no rule in 3.5 that says Druids are prohibited from using any kind of weapon (with some minor exceptions like a metal shield bash or armor spikes). They're not proficient in it, but there are no penalties to spellcasting by using manufactured weapons. The only restriction is using metal armor or shields. I believe the reason they gave for this was that so much metal so close to the body would make the magical energies function improperly. There's nothing in the druid vows preventing them from picking up a sword.

For your character concept, I honestly can't see a stone (rather than wood/metal) spear mattering too much. Wild Shape is almost always better for combat anyway, the minor damage you'll be losing for having an inferior material really won't count much in the long run. (And if you're not planning on being in Wildshape very much, you'd probably be better off as a Cleric of Obad-Hai or Ehlonna - no weird armor restrictions, and you're still very nature-themed).

I know they're *not* prohibited from it. It just doesn't make much sense to me, especially where companion armor is concerned if they're supposed to have this mystical bond to their companion.

Tengu_temp
2010-08-19, 12:06 PM
Actually, I think in this case the problem is the "no metal armor" thing to begin with. How the heck do you roleplay a character that can't wear metal armor, but is perfectly free to wield metal weapons and have their linked companion wear metal armor?

Easy. Druids feel their connection with the natural world, which lets them cast their spells, through their whole body. Metal disrupts this connection, so putting on metal armor causes them to temporarily lose access to spells. Weapons don't cover your body, so they're fine.

I don't see any problems with a druid using only natural materials - this class is strong enough that you can use a subpar weapon anyway, and as someone mentioned previously your animal companion is not proficient with any armor, so giving it something heavier than leather actually nerfs it.

The rogue can be solved with either taking a dip in monk or ninja, or refluffing the weapons you're using to give them a more oriental flavour. If your DM disagrees... a DM who's so close-minded that he's against the sole idea of refluffing is not a very good DM, if you ask me.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 12:07 PM
Easy. Druids feel their connection with the natural world, which lets them cast their spells, through their whole body. Metal disrupts this connection, so putting on metal armor causes them to temporarily lose access to spells. Weapons don't cover your body, so they're fine.

I don't see any problems with a druid using only natural materials - this class is strong enough that you can use a subpar weapon anyway, and as someone mentioned previously your animal companion is not proficient with any armor, so giving it something heavier than leather actually nerfs it.

Animals gain armor proficency via war training, which is already a worthwhile investment in and of itself.

Keld Denar
2010-08-19, 12:10 PM
Lots of things in the D&D ruleset don't make sense. Its not perfect. Nobody EVER said it was perfect. Guess what, though? You have 3 options.

1) Adapt. Build around the funky rule. As others have stated, play a cleric or archivist or whatever.
2) Change the rule. Printed rules are only absolutely binding if the DM says they are. If its inhibiting your ability to have fun, talk to your DM and change the rule.
3) Change systems. If you can't do what you want to do with D&D, play a different game. Maybe GURPS or Rifts or Traveler, or Rogue Trader, or CoC, or Champions, or WoD, or one of dozens of other systems will better suit you.

You are NEVER restricted in a game that is essentially "pretend with rules". There are no Vegan Police that will take away your powers if they find out you are "doing it wrong". Do it the way you want.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-19, 12:13 PM
There are plenty of options out there. Cast Luminous Armor (BoED) on it, or have the party's arcane caster put Mage Armor on it. Take Exalted Companion (BoED) so your companion can take VoP. Get a Magebred (ECS) version of your desired companion, and use Handle Animal to give it the Warbeast (MM2) template, for an extra +1 HD, +4 natural armor, +7 Str, +2 Dex, and +5 Con, among other benefits. If you can't get a suitable spear, just use a quarterstaff or club, you can even cast Shillelagh and Brambles/Spikes on that.

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 12:14 PM
Lots of things in the D&D ruleset don't make sense. Its not perfect. Nobody EVER said it was perfect. Guess what, though? You have 3 options.

1) Adapt. Build around the funky rule. As others have stated, play a cleric or archivist or whatever.
2) Change the rule. Printed rules are only absolutely binding if the DM says they are. If its inhibiting your ability to have fun, talk to your DM and change the rule.
3) Change systems. If you can't do what you want to do with D&D, play a different game. Maybe GURPS or Rifts or Traveler, or Rogue Trader, or CoC, or Champions, or WoD, or one of dozens of other systems will better suit you.

You are NEVER restricted in a game that is essentially "pretend with rules". There are no Vegan Police that will take away your powers if they find out you are "doing it wrong". Do it the way you want.

I think part of the problem is I'm the odd one out in my group. I don't want to stop playing with this group, because they're my friends and I enjoy spending time with them. But D&D for me is a good part about combat. I don't know how to sit around in the tavern with other characters, partly because that's something I would absolutely hate doing in real life. And that kind of thing seems to be what the other players would like to do.

Tengu_temp
2010-08-19, 12:16 PM
Animals gain armor proficency via war training, which is already a worthwhile investment in and of itself.

Well, by Wizards' intention you're probably not supposed to give any armor to your animal companion, so giving it anything is very powerful, and using heavy armor is just overkill. Of course, by Wizards' intention clerics are healbots, so yeah.

Let me shill my favorite system and suggest Mutants and Masterminds. You can build pretty much every character concept in it, and it will be as powerful as you want it to be.

Aroka
2010-08-19, 12:16 PM
Easy. Druids feel their connection with the natural world, which lets them cast their spells, through their whole body. Metal disrupts this connection, so putting on metal armor causes them to temporarily lose access to spells. Weapons don't cover your body, so they're fine.

I don't see any problems with a druid using only natural materials - this class is strong enough that you can use a subpar weapon anyway, and as someone mentioned previously your animal companion is not proficient with any armor, so giving it something heavier than leather actually nerfs it.

Why does it disrupt the connection, and why is metal not a natural material? Wood and metal are both found in nature, and neither is found in spear form. Leather is the skin of dead animals, yet is more natural than metal?

Keld Denar
2010-08-19, 12:19 PM
Find another group to get your combat on with then? Try to find a more high-op hack n slash game to get your fix from, then chill out and enjoy hanging with your buddies in the bar.

Me personally? My group loves to sit around for hours and come up with an elaborate plan for assaulting the castle. They think of every contingency, every possibility, every reinforcement, and it drives me bonkers. I'm a bit more kick-the-door-down, and adapt on the fly. I'm not about to impinge on their fun, so I throw out a couple ideas and go make a pot of coffee. They have their fun planning, I get sweet sweet black joe, and in the end, we just kick the door down anyway. Just deal with it.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-19, 12:22 PM
Why does it disrupt the connection, and why is metal not a natural material? Wood and metal are both found in nature, and neither is found in spear form. Leather is the skin of dead animals, yet is more natural than metal?

It has nothing to do with material actually. Basically druids have a code of conduct: unlike Pal, they only have 1 thing on it. No metal armor.

Same way Paladins hasve no poison, yet poison isn't evil or unlawful.

Telonius
2010-08-19, 12:22 PM
Hold on a second, doesn't Warbeast give the base creature a bump in Level Adjustment? It would lose 2AC just from being behind the base creature in Animal Companion progression.

Tengu_temp
2010-08-19, 12:24 PM
Why does it disrupt the connection, and why is metal not a natural material? Wood and metal are both found in nature, and neither is found in spear form. Leather is the skin of dead animals, yet is more natural than metal?

It's a special property of all metals? Same reason why fae in folklore don't like iron, I guess.

Greenish
2010-08-19, 12:25 PM
Ok, no western equivalent that we have stats for in any of the books I own. :smallwink:Statistics for a sai: 1d4 bludgeoning x2, 10' range.

Statistics for a club: 1d6 bludgeoning x2, 10' range.

Okay, sai works better in the offhand when TWFing, but otherwise it doesn't matter if you call your club sai.

Caphi
2010-08-19, 12:28 PM
The basic problem with this topic is that certain concepts are genuinely less powerful, and it's not really reasonable to expect them to be balanced. If your concept is "fighter with a sap", expect to be the junior assistant to the fighter (or paladin, or warblade, or duskblade) with a greatsword. If your cleric doesn't wear armor, you generally want to have alternative ways to protect yourself. Either the restriction or the power is going to give, because the restriction is designed so that it limits the power by definition.

The thing here is that there are solutions to the OP's particular problems that don't hurt either of them much. The druid is a particularly easy one - lightly armor the companion! Serving the concept and not opening with dragonhide plate mail is technically a downgrade, but not a huge one. It doesn't utterly break the character's power. Besides, he's already a druid.

Likewise the rogue. Using a dagger instead of a sai, or a throwing knife instead of a kunai, may not be your ideal situation, but is it really that important to be able to write down "sai" and "kunai" on your sheet and have it match the exact chart in the book?

Yes, they're both sacrifices on one side or the other. But don't you think the slack you're giving yourself is a little too small?

Shademan
2010-08-19, 12:39 PM
Statistics for a sai: 1d4 bludgeoning x2, 10' range.

Statistics for a club: 1d6 bludgeoning x2, 10' range.

Okay, sai works better in the offhand when TWFing, but otherwise it doesn't matter if you call your club sai.

wouldnt a sai be abit more...stabby?
and give +2 to disarm?

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 12:39 PM
The basic problem with this topic is that certain concepts are genuinely less powerful, and it's not really reasonable to expect them to be balanced. If your concept is "fighter with a sap", expect to be the junior assistant to the fighter (or paladin, or warblade, or duskblade) with a greatsword. If your cleric doesn't wear armor, you generally want to have alternative ways to protect yourself. Either the restriction or the power is going to give, because the restriction is designed so that it limits the power by definition.

The thing here is that there are solutions to the OP's particular problems that don't hurt either of them much. The druid is a particularly easy one - lightly armor the companion! Serving the concept and not opening with dragonhide plate mail is technically a downgrade, but not a huge one. It doesn't utterly break the character's power. Besides, he's already a druid.

Likewise the rogue. Using a dagger instead of a sai, or a throwing knife instead of a kunai, may not be your ideal situation, but is it really that important to be able to write down "sai" and "kunai" on your sheet and have it match the exact chart in the book?

Yes, they're both sacrifices on one side or the other. But don't you think the slack you're giving yourself is a little too small?

Quite possibly. Although I think why the heck you can't make scale mail out of dragonhide is a pretty fair question.

kamikasei
2010-08-19, 12:45 PM
Personally, I try my best to know the limits of the system I am working with before I do any character stories.
This seems to muddy the waters more than a little. Instead of starting with the story, you're starting with a knowledge of what the system accommodates and hinders, and letting that influence the concepts you give time to. Which is perfectly sensible IMO - my character creation generally involves a lot of back and forth between the character and backstory and the mechanical representation thereof, and I think it's rather asking for trouble to try to do either in full before looking at the other - but it doesn't change the fact that if your concept is one the system doesn't accommodate then the answer to "how do I make this character?" is mostly "badly".

Greenish
2010-08-19, 12:45 PM
wouldnt a sai be abit more...stabby?Not enough to reflect in the mechanics.

and give +2 to disarm?Sai does give +4 to disarm, true, but it also has -4 to disarm for being a light weapon, so in the end a club is just as good.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-08-19, 12:52 PM
Alright WarKitty here's what you need to do for the Druid.

1. Make your weapons out of wood. I got the impression you wanted to use a spear. A spear has absoloutly nothing in the text that says it's got a metal point on it. Longstaff with a sharp pointy end IS A SPEAR. It's cheap its easy and it's really effing sharp. IF you want a bladed weapon make it out of wood! Then cast iron wood on it. woot your done.

2. Armor: pickup the arms and equipment guide. Your options are as follows: bark, bondleafwrap, bone, cord, leatherscale, moonivy, wicker, wood, lamellar, Shell, Coral, dendritic, dwarven stone. A few of these are rather pricy but most arent incredibly expensive.

If your problem is that you animal companion can wear metal armor and you cant consider the fact that ANIMAL COMPANIONS WERE NEVER MEANT TO WEAR ARMOR. When the book was written they didnt think about it. so it never occured to them to write in that animal companions cant wear metal armor either. Wizards isn't brilliant and it never occured to them that people would comb through the books and become uber rules lawyers taking failure to exempt as meaning its okay.

Your arguements are all about why you cant do something because of the restrictions of the class you are playing. The answer you seem to be looking for is "throw the no metal armor rule out so you can be more powerful" but wanting to throw out restrictions of a class so you can be more powerful isn't Optimizing, it's being a Munchkin. Druid is already one of the most powerful classes in the game it's flavor restriction dont even limit it that much. You dont NEED to make it stronger. Heck you need to nerf it more.

In DND you can just about play ANY character you design. Somtimes the character you design is a little higher level than you start out and it takes a while to get there, but you can do it. There are virtually NO character designs i can think of that you cant build in DND. All you need to do is be creative and look beyond the original flavor of a class. You want to play a ninja like character but dont like the Ninja as a class. Play a rogue and REFLAVOR IT. it's not that hard. you want to play a nature fighter with an animal companion who turns into animals and casts spells and overall owns everyone with their awsome natureness, then play a druid and dont use metal. You want to do that and use metal, play an urban druid instead their restriction is nothing more than a +4! or Play a cleric barbarian and go bear warrior with the Wild cohort feat.

Greenish
2010-08-19, 12:58 PM
2. Armor: pickup the arms and equipment guide.Races of Stone and Eberron Campaign Setting have a selection of "natural" armours too. (Who wouldn't want to use mammoth hide armour?)

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 01:01 PM
Alright WarKitty here's what you need to do for the Druid.

1. Make your weapons out of wood. I got the impression you wanted to use a spear. A spear has absoloutly nothing in the text that says it's got a metal point on it. Longstaff with a sharp pointy end IS A SPEAR. It's cheap its easy and it's really effing sharp. IF you want a bladed weapon make it out of wood! bamboo in particular makes a wicked awesome spear. Then cast iron wood on it. woot your done.

2. Armor: pickup the arms and equipment guide. Your options are as follows: bark, bondleafwrap, bone, cord, leatherscale, moonivy, wicker, wood, lamellar, Shell, Coral, dendritic, dwarven stone. A few of these are rather pricy but most arent incredibly expensive.

If your problem is that you animal companion can wear metal armor and you cant consider the fact that ANIMAL COMPANIONS WERE NEVER MEANT TO WEAR ARMOR. When the book was written they didnt think about it. so it never occured to them to write in that animal companions cant wear metal armor either. Wizards isn't brilliant and it never occured to them that people would comb through the books and become uber rules lawyers taking failure to exempt as meaning its okay.

Your arguements are all about why you cant do something because of the restrictions of the class you are playing. The answer you seem to be looking for is "throw the no metal armor rule out so you can be more powerful" but wanting to throw out restrictions of a class so you can be more powerful isn't Optimizing, it's being a Munchkin. Druid is already one of the most powerful classes in the game it's flavor restriction dont even limit it that much. You dont NEED to make it stronger. Heck you need to nerf it more.


(1) Ironwood is a 6th level spell. I'm nowhere near able to cast it.

(2) I don't own the arms and equipment guide, unfortunately, so you may have a point there. I was relying on crystalkeep's list. I don't really have money to spare on books right now.

(3) I never said I wanted to throw out the no metal armor rule. Actually I think it's a rather good restriction. I would like to see is the rule applied in a consistent manner. Also it would be nice if dragonhide could be applied to scale mail so I could use starting wealth on it, especially as our DM doesn't let us save up starting wealth.

(4) I'm playing pathfinder/3.5, so the druid isn't as powerful as you're thinking. Wild shape got nerfed significantly and concentration checks difficult enough that a caster in melee is almost impossible.

Also, I did warn you this was going to be a rant. :smalltongue: If you went in expecting a calm logical discussion I point you to the first line of my original post.

Ormagoden
2010-08-19, 01:07 PM
The only thing that is eastern and can't be replicated? Shuriken.

How about a rock.

Worira
2010-08-19, 01:07 PM
wouldnt a sai be abit more...stabby?
and give +2 to disarm?

Sai are blunt weapons, and clubs and sai are equally good at disarming.

Alternately, if you want to TWF, but don't care about throwing the sai, you can use a light mace.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-08-19, 01:13 PM
(1) Ironwood is a 6th level spell. I'm nowhere near able to cast it.

(2) I don't own the arms and equipment guide, unfortunately, so you may have a point there. I was relying on crystalkeep's list. I don't really have money to spare on books right now.

(3) I never said I wanted to throw out the no metal armor rule. Actually I think it's a rather good restriction. I would like to see is the rule applied in a consistent manner. Also it would be nice if dragonhide could be applied to scale mail so I could use starting wealth on it, especially as our DM doesn't let us save up starting wealth.

(4) I'm playing pathfinder/3.5, so the druid isn't as powerful as you're thinking. Wild shape got nerfed significantly and concentration checks difficult enough that a caster in melee is almost impossible.

Also, I did warn you this was going to be a rant. :smalltongue: If you went in expecting a calm logical discussion I point you to the first line of my original post.

1. buy a wand
2. you can find most of the stuff online you just have to search for it.
3. Leatherscale: 35GP. +3 armor bonus. +6 max dex, -2 armor check penalty
4. Pathfinder is a MUCH better option compared to how horribly broken standard 3.5 druid is.
5. rants are rants, they get rant responses:smallsmile:

Boci
2010-08-19, 01:17 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but this is what I have to say:

1. Three pages in I cannot be the first to say that druids can wield metal weapons.
2. Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons? Because he saw how easy they were to use and retrained his EWPs.

Worira
2010-08-19, 01:19 PM
"My god, this is incredible! It's like I've been trying to fight with farming tools until now!"

Tetrasodium
2010-08-19, 01:23 PM
2. Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons? Because he saw how easy they were to use and retrained his EWPs.

Because he can't make them himself and weaponsmith's don't know wtf this sai thing is but it sure sounds like a dagger with a fancy crossguard. Amusing and easily justifiable things can be fun for roleplay, just talk to your DM and see if he's willing to let weaponsmiths be blissfully ignorant and completely inaccurate whenever he asks for an "eastern" weapon to be made and describes it.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-19, 01:38 PM
wouldnt a sai be abit more...stabby?

Not in D&D. In D&D Sai's are blunt (weird I know).

Worira
2010-08-19, 01:40 PM
As they are in real life.

Prime32
2010-08-19, 01:42 PM
You don't wield a sai like a dagger. You put two fingers through each gap between the prongs and grip it that way. (http://fc07.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/285/d/d/Ninja_Turtle____Raphael_by_Red_J.jpg)

2. Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons? Because he saw how easy they were to use and retrained his EWPs.Eastern characters only use exotic weapons? Seriously? :smallconfused:

Shademan
2010-08-19, 01:58 PM
Not enough to reflect in the mechanics.Sai does give +4 to disarm, true, but it also has -4 to disarm for being a light weapon, so in the end a club is just as good.

No, imean. Sai is a KNIFE...why does it do BLUNT damage?:smallconfused:

Knaight
2010-08-19, 01:59 PM
Eastern characters only use exotic weapons? Seriously? :smallconfused:

Really, if you are using a Sai, nunchuks, or most of the other exotic eastern weapons that recieve attention in media, its probably because of serious consequences for having weapons that aren't slightly modified farming tools in your possession.

Asbestos
2010-08-19, 02:00 PM
No, imean. Sai is a KNIFE...why does it do BLUNT damage?:smallconfused:

Because it isn't a knife or even sharp?

The Rose Dragon
2010-08-19, 02:02 PM
No, imean. Sai is a KNIFE...why does it do BLUNT damage?:smallconfused:

Sai are not designed to pierce the skin.

Worira
2010-08-19, 02:04 PM
You don't wield a sai like a dagger. You put two fingers through each gap between the prongs and grip it that way. (http://fc07.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/285/d/d/Ninja_Turtle____Raphael_by_Red_J.jpg)


I think that picture makes it pretty clear that you put one giant finger through each gap between the prongs.

Shademan
2010-08-19, 02:41 PM
Because it isn't a knife or even sharp?

no but...pointy?

Emmerask
2010-08-19, 02:47 PM
This is a rant, just FYI. I am not pretending to be super-logical right now.

My group plays 3.5. I admittedly am not the best roleplayer in the world. My problem, though, is every time I come up with a cool concept, I get told "you can't play that without a significant power cost." Want a druid that uses only natural materials? No decent armor for your companion unless you shell out all your starting gold, and you can forget about that spear you wanted because stone isn't an allowable material. Trying to build a rogue with an eastern flavor? You'll have to burn 2 or 3 feats on exotic weapon proficency. They're not in themselves lower-powered ideas, but there is no way to stat them without either constantly bugging the DM for exceptions or seriously nerfing your character.

So, basically, I have 3 options here:

(1) play a suboptimal character
(2) optimize a character and forget roleplaying
(3) build a character that fits one of the limited archetypes that D&D allows so I can have something roleplayable that doesn't suck.


If you play a tier 1 or 2 character it does not really matter if you take some suboptimal choices (emphasis on suboptimal not stupid^^) you are still far better then any lower tier characters.
Of course if you are playing in a tier 1 optimizer group then it is different but most groups I have played with always consist of a mixed bag of tier 1 -5 characters even if I deliberately gimped my caster by losing 3 or more casterlevels I was still miles ahead in terms of utility and power.

So (1) for nearly any playstyle/gaming group except the superoptimizer group who only plays tier ones. It doesn´t really matter if you take suboptimal choices with the extremely more powerful character, you just reduce the amount of holding back you have to practice during gameplay :smallbiggrin:

If you play a lower tier then it becomes more problematic but most gms will have a soft spot for those poor classes and are more willing to grant them a boon here and there, at least in my experience.

Boci
2010-08-19, 03:00 PM
Eastern characters only use exotic weapons? Seriously? :smallconfused:

No, but the OP asked that question on page 1 so I thought I'd give them the first answer that came to mind.

Aroka
2010-08-19, 03:10 PM
You don't wield a sai like a dagger. You put two fingers through each gap between the prongs and grip it that way. (http://fc07.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/285/d/d/Ninja_Turtle____Raphael_by_Red_J.jpg)

Only when you're not trying to use its primary feature, i.e. as a sword-catcher. If you want to use it to catch a weapon, you have to use it like a dagger (or, rather, like the similar but one-pronged jitte). Both are used with an finger-over-the-guard grip (like many later western swords), but that's only when you're not using them to catch weapons.

To clarify, both sai and jitte are made of a thin, round, unsharpened metal "rod" with similarly unsharpened round prongs (one on the jitte, or two on the sai). TMNT lied to you, sorry.

Ravens_cry
2010-08-19, 03:11 PM
Eh, I have a character who doesn't use any magic items. Any. Yeah, I bet he's going to lag behind the rest of the group eventually. But it's part of their princibles, part of what makes them who they are. Besides, I am going to have a gun, and I am going to use rapid reload.
If I build things right, things won't get a CHANCE to hit me.

LibraryOgre
2010-08-19, 03:23 PM
no but...pointy?

I am sad to be the one to tell you this but... your ninja turtles lied to you. The sai is pretty much a funny metal club.


"My god, this is incredible! It's like I've been trying to fight with farming tools until now!"

How appropriate. You fight like a cow. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Island_%28series%29)

Shademan
2010-08-19, 03:29 PM
I am sad to be the one to tell you this but... your ninja turtles lied to you. The sai is pretty much a funny metal club.






RAPHAEL! WHYYYYYYYYYYY!!!?!?!?!??

TheThan
2010-08-19, 03:32 PM
Why would an eastern rogue use western weapons?

The druid one's my biggest pet peeve at the moment. You can't have any sort of BLADE with natural materials.

stupid considering druids are proficient with scimitars, which are swords, which are made out of metal.


edit

Iron [and its alloys (IE steal) to a lesser extent] is a natural material, heck it’s a natural element for crying out loud. So with that theory there is no reason why a druid couldn’t wear it, since they can wield steel swords. Heck same goes for bronze (copper +tin).

kamikasei
2010-08-19, 03:41 PM
The druid one's my biggest pet peeve at the moment. You can't have any sort of BLADE with natural materials.
Sharpen a dinosaur tooth. PrC in to Ashworm Dragoon.

Aroka
2010-08-19, 03:47 PM
Sharpen a dinosaur tooth. PrC in to Ashworm Dragoon.

I think you mean a worm tooth (http://www.yourprops.com/norm-42f363dd9529b-Dune+%28TV%29+%282000%29.jpeg)!

WarKitty
2010-08-19, 03:49 PM
1. buy a wand
2. you can find most of the stuff online you just have to search for it.
3. Leatherscale: 35GP. +3 armor bonus. +6 max dex, -2 armor check penalty
4. Pathfinder is a MUCH better option compared to how horribly broken standard 3.5 druid is.
5. rants are rants, they get rant responses:smallsmile:

1. If I had that kind of gold I'd have bought dragonhide full plate by now.
2. I did, apparently the purported complete list was not in fact complete.
3. Will look
4. Yes, yes it is.
5. Point taken.

Prime32
2010-08-19, 06:33 PM
RAPHAEL! WHYYYYYYYYYYY!!!?!?!?!??Because he was created as a parody of Wolverine?

thompur
2010-08-19, 08:39 PM
Actually, as the Great Frank Miller taught us in Daredevil and Elektra; a Sai can pierce cloth, skin, flesh, and bone, but it can't pierce the back of a victims shirt.(or the front, if your being stabbed from behind.

Daremonai
2010-08-20, 07:17 AM
RAPHAEL! WHYYYYYYYYYYY!!!?!?!?!??

In all fairness, if I was a freakish mutated turtle that was taught amazing martial-art skills and then told I could only have a miniaturised pitchfork while the other guy got a real weapon (Leonardo/swords) then I'd probably go out and sharpen my sai too, regardless of their traditional use. I'm not exactly going to convince anyone I'm a simple farmer carrying a harmless tool, am I?

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-08-20, 07:35 AM
In all fairness, if I was a freakish mutated turtle that was taught amazing martial-art skills and then told I could only have a miniaturised pitchfork while the other guy got a real weapon (Leonardo/swords) then I'd probably go out and sharpen my sai too, regardless of their traditional use. I'm not exactly going to convince anyone I'm a simple farmer carrying a harmless tool, am I?

Nobody tell Donatello that all he got was a stick! . . . "no man it's called a Bo staff. . . it's totally as good as a sword. "

Psyx
2010-08-20, 07:37 AM
Ok, no western equivalent that we have stats for in any of the books I own.

So... you're worried about compromising optimisation for roleplaying to the extent of a couple of points of AC until you find one of the many work-arounds to address the issue, and 1 point of damage per attack due to an 'inferior' weapon?

You're playing a DRUID! Talk about a drop in the ocean, dude. Does it actually matter? especially if the rest of the group aren't at all optimised.

Man, superman must hate the fact that he has to still go to the toilet. He should really petition his GM about that.




I don't know how to sit around in the tavern with other characters, partly because that's something I would absolutely hate doing in real life.

Does...not...compute.
Rebooting brain. Out of beer error.




In D&D Sai's are blunt (weird I know)

Weird like WoTC got something correct?

Greenish
2010-08-20, 07:52 AM
So... you're worried about compromising optimisation for roleplaying to the extent of a couple of points of AC until you find one of the many work-arounds to address the issue, and 1 point of damage per attack due to an 'inferior' weapon?You've misattributed your quote.

Weird like WoTC got something correct?That they would go with the actual thing instead of the popular perception is a bit weird. (Ref. such things as all shields having to be strapped on, or the whole Ninja class.)

Eldariel
2010-08-20, 09:11 AM
Nobody tell Donatello that all he got was a stick! . . . "no man it's called a Bo staff. . . it's totally as good as a sword. "

I think he's aware of that already (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxqQGmbAFCI)...

WarKitty
2010-08-20, 10:02 AM
So... you're worried about compromising optimisation for roleplaying to the extent of a couple of points of AC until you find one of the many work-arounds to address the issue, and 1 point of damage per attack due to an 'inferior' weapon?

You're playing a DRUID! Talk about a drop in the ocean, dude. Does it actually matter? especially if the rest of the group aren't at all optimised.


It just rubs me the wrong way. And this is a pathfinder druid, so I'm nowhere near as powerful as you're thinking, particularly since I'm still at pre-wildshape levels.

Caphi
2010-08-20, 10:19 AM
It just rubs me the wrong way. And this is a pathfinder druid, so I'm nowhere near as powerful as you're thinking, particularly since I'm still at pre-wildshape levels.

But he's right on the larger point, which is what I was trying to tell you earlier. It's a loss, but it's a pretty small one. All sacrifices aren't created equal, and optimization is about getting as high as you can. Remember the definition of min-maxing? Small trade-offs for comparatively big advantages? This is it. Your concept requests a miniscule short-term power sacrifice. Do it already!