Origin of PC Spoilers: Durkon's Exile Speculation

[Menarker]

Those who have read the Origin of PC book would know about the circumstances under which Durkon was expelled from his homeland. However, I'll put it briefly here.

A High Priest of Odin came to the High Priest of Thor with a warning of a prophecy that the one named Durkon Thundershield would bring death and destruction to all of Dwarf-land should he ever returns. Thus a well-meaning conspiracy between the High Priest and the temple's brew-master was made, sending Durkon to the human lands on the premise of learning about human cultures and passing on the word of Thor while explictively telling him that he must never return until he was called back home. They of course never intended to call him back.
The status quo has been kept because they assumed correctly that Durkon, being the utterly lawful type he is, would never break his word to stay put until called for. That and the only message inviting him back to Dwarfland from the new High Priest , who was ignorant of the details of the prophecy, was eaten by the MItD and thus Durkon still assumes he's not welcome back.

However, there may have been another unspoken reason/motive or at least a selfish yet convenient excuse as to why Durkon was exiled as opposed to being told the truth and trusting that he would stay put (aside from High Priest thinking that Durkon would accidently trigger the prophecy by getting groceries or visiting relatives).

Particular relevant details regarding the religion and afterlife of dwarves in this link. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)

Due to the emphasis of dwarves only receiving a full afterlife if they died "gloriously" in combat, confining Durkon to his home where he would almost certainly would never die to anything but old age (or heavy drinking at best) would effectively be equal to sentencing him to Hel as a dishonored Dwarf which is a rather cruel fate for someone as devout as he is, who values the afterlife and even the burial process as something precious in and of itself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html)

I'd imagine that if the truth was told to Durkon, he might have decided to impose the exile upon himself anyways (although he would have made plans so he would never be sent back to Dwarfland) so he could live a somewhat full life but still have the chance to die as a respectable dwarf capable of rejoining his honored ancestors in the afterlife while still fulfilling his perceived duties.

Any particular or additional notes to this line of thought?

[slayerx]

Dying of old age and sickness probably doesn't happen as often as you'd think

When it comes to sickness for instance, the drawf will usually go out and pick a fight with a tree in order to die in "battle" rather than sickness. And when it comes to old age, i don't know much about drinking, but i'd imagine that the older you get the higher the chance you have of suffering from liver failure... that's how durkon's gandfather died. And really when it comes down to it, in the world of OotS it is farfetched to believe that there are no random encounters in the dwarven lands... upon reaching old age or becoming sick, a dwarf could just wonder into the wilderness and just keep fighting monsters until he's killed...

[Menarker]

Dying of old age and sickness probably doesn't happen as often as you'd think

When it comes to sickness for instance, the drawf will usually go out and pick a fight with a tree in order to die in "battle" rather than sickness. And when it comes to old age, i don't know much about drinking, but i'd imagine that the older you get the higher the chance you have of suffering from liver failure... that's how durkon's gandfather died. And really when it comes down to it, in the world of OotS it is farfetched to believe that there are no random encounters in the dwarven lands... upon reaching old age or becoming sick, a dwarf could just wonder into the wilderness and just keep fighting monsters until he's killed...

Keep in mind, if he leaves the village at any time, especially to die in battle, his corpse probably wouldn't be allowed to come back, which would put a big damper on Durkon wanting to be buried next to his pappy and grandpappy and his great grandpappy. At least, that's what the theory on the board is, that even the dead form of Durkon being brought over to Dwarfland could spell tragedy. Plus, he'd need to organize his death in advance, lest he risks his body being lost to predators and such.

Drinking is pretty much the only way he could really died and keep the promise of a good burial and afterlife (although he'd be living a rather boring and somewhat useless life). He could go out in the wilderness and be killed in combat if he was willing to forgo the burial though and made sure that no one would bring his body back.

[Cybertoy00]

The brewer in Dwarven lands said its dangerous trying to screw with prophecy. And I agree. the prophecy said he would bring death and destruction down when he returns. The high priest of Thor thought he could get around this by sending the cleric on a virtual permanent exile. However, the Oracle made it clear that Durkon WOULD get home...only dead. It's possible that being whatever kills him might end up poisoning his body, so when he returns, the disease ends up running rampant, sorta like the black plague.
Or maybe, even worse, it's Belkar who brings him home, and then goes on a killing spree, until he's finally put down.
Just a thought, really.

[Ancalagon]

The brewer in Dwarven lands said its dangerous trying to screw with prophecy. And I agree. the prophecy said he would bring death and destruction down when he returns. The high priest of Thor thought he could get around this by sending the cleric on a virtual permanent exile. However, the Oracle made it clear that Durkon WOULD get home...only dead. It's possible that being whatever kills him might end up poisoning his body, so when he returns, the disease ends up running rampant, sorta like the black plague.
Or maybe, even worse, it's Belkar who brings him home, and then goes on a killing spree, until he's finally put down.
Just a thought, really.

Another common theory is that Durkon will die at the fourth gate, the order will then run to the fifth, which is north, which is where the dwarven lands are, carrying his body.
So the "death and destruction" that follow Durkon('s body) will be Xykon and Redcloak who also seek the last gate.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Yeah, to Durkon, bein’ a Dwarf is about doin’ your duty, especially if it makes you miserable. I’m quite certain they would have gotten a willing exile out of him if they told the truth. Even if it did mean not getting buried next to his family.

[Ancalagon]

Yeah, to Durkon, bein’ a Dwarf is about doin’ your duty, especially if it makes you miserable. I’m quite certain they would have gotten a willing exile out of him if they told the truth. Even if it did mean not getting buried next to his family.

They would have.

I find it strange they rely on his lawfulness to never come back, even when he does not know what is it all about. So far, so nice, but...

... would it not be a much safer bet to rely on him never leaving when he DOES know what it is about? They could have given him a position as "deep below the earth quartermaster" and that'd have been it. And even IF he ever left for some reason he then would know he could not come back.

[Nimrod's Son]

Meh. Once prophesied, it's gonna happen regardless. If Durkon had been fated to stay at home forever, there never would have been a prophesy about him in the first place.

[Ancalagon]

Meh. Once prophesied, it's gonna happen regardless.

You know that and I know that it works like that in stories. The Grand Clerics of the Dwarves apparently do not believe it is that much written in stone and fate.
They, apparently, think one can circumvent and avert prophecies. Or they would not have bothered at all in doing anything about it.

[Xapi]

Perhaps the prophecy was just a stunt from Thor to get his man out there on the field.

We've been shown very clearly that Thor goes to great lenghts to help this priest of his more than would normally be allowed to a cleric,(controlweathercontrolweather) so while we can think that it was just for the kicks, it's also a plausibe explanation that Tordek is, unknowingly, and agent of Thor in this game.

[Menarker]

Perhaps the prophecy was just a stunt from Thor to get his man out there on the field.

We've been shown very clearly that Thor goes to great lenghts to help this priest of his more than would normally be allowed to a cleric,(controlweathercontrolweather) so while we can think that it was just for the kicks, it's also a plausibe explanation that Tordek is, unknowingly, and agent of Thor in this game.

While Thor has shown particular care for Durkon, I should remind you the prophecy came from the head god of the Norse myths, Odin, who was particularly famous for his gift of foresight.

[137beth]

I think he will die and be reanimated by Xykon, who will send him along with an army to attack his homelands. Meaning that he will return posthumously and that would mean doom for his home:smallsmile:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

... would it not be a much safer bet to rely on him never leaving when he DOES know what it is about? They could have given him a position as "deep below the earth quartermaster" and that'd have been it. And even IF he ever left for some reason he then would know he could not come back.
The problem is that they weren’t sure what the scope of “home” is. Hence the worry of him triggering the prophecy just by going grocery shopping. If “home” turned out to be narrowly defined as “inside your primary dwelling,” all it would take would be for him to accidentally step out into the street, and he’d have to be exiled anyway. No, it’s better to make him a wandering exile without a home from the start.

Actually, in terms of scope, here’s another way the plot could go wrong (but not one that is likely to happen in the comic):

Durkon spends a decade or two learning about human lands. Eventually he decides that he should learn more about how humans live a settled life. He establishes a new domocile in a human settlement to better do just that. As more years go by, he can’t help but think of this new dwelling as his home. Eventually, he goes out grocery shopping or to visit a sick human friend, and then returns home, and somehow sets in motion a chain of events that leads to the destruction of his former home.

So, yeah: Keeping Durkon out of the loop is just a bad idea. That is if the prophecy were circumventable to begin with. As it is, it’s really just working out as one of those prophecies that are fulfilled only because someone tried to circumvent it.


While Thor has shown particular care for Durkon, I should remind you the prophecy came from the head god of the Norse myths, Odin, who was particularly famous for his gift of foresight.
Just because a priest of Odin receives a prophecy from a being claiming to be Odin, doesn’t mean the message actually came from Odin. But I don’t think OotS Thor is that canny for such trickery.

[Ancalagon]

The problem is that they weren’t sure what the scope of “home” is. Hence the worry of him triggering the prophecy just by going grocery shopping.

They surely did not expect Death & Destruction to follow from a evening at a bar and a grocery store...

[Shhalahr Windrider]

They surely did not expect Death & Destruction to follow from a evening at a bar and a grocery store...
Yes, they did.


“Nay, ye fool, I’ve saved us. He would have left home eventually to get food or visit his uncle.”

—High Priest Hurak

The prophecy never specified how the death and destruction would come about. It never even said his return would be a direct cause. It was just an indicator of “when”. All it really needs is something like how Sarah Connor brought death and destruction to that nightclub in Terminator when she next entered it.

[Ancalagon]

Yes, they did.


“Nay, ye fool, I’ve saved us. He would have left home eventually to get food or visit his uncle.”

—High Priest Hurak.

IF he knew he cannot leave "home" in the first place and he has a job "in the mines"?
Would he rather not write a letter to his uncle and let himself be the visited one?

We also do not know where his unclue lives but that it is a "big deal" that "makes him leave home" indicates his uncle does not live next to the grocery store.
And also note that Durkon was running around the "dwarven homes" for decades without triggering the prophecy. No, they knew that "coming home" has to mean more than just "took a walk around the corner".

[Shhalahr Windrider]

IF he knew he cannot leave "home" in the first place and he has a job "in the mines"?
Would he rather not write a letter to his uncle and let himself be the visited one?
As I mentioned before, confining him to a small area has its own problems.


We also do not know where his unclue lives but that it is a "big deal" that "makes him leave home" indicates his uncle does not live next to the grocery store.
Indeed. But I doubt him going out to get food would be that big a deal. That’s the focus here.


And also note that Durkon was running around the "dwarven homes" for decades without triggering the prophecy. No, they knew that "coming home" has to mean more than just "took a walk around the corner".
The prophecy wasn’t made before Durkon was born and saying, “Whenever Durkon Thundershield returns home…” The prophecy was “When Durkon Thundershield next returns home…” It doesn’t matter how many times he returned home before the prophecy was made.

[Darthteej]

The prophecy wasn’t made before Durkon was born and saying, “Whenever Durkon Thundershield returns home…” The prophecy was “When Durkon Thundershield next returns home…” It doesn’t matter how many times he returned home before the prophecy was made.[/QUOTE]

And that's why it's bad to try to outwit prophecy.

[Ancalagon]

As I mentioned before, confining him to a small area has its own problems.

More or less than the current "solution"?

Now they do not even have a pre-warning. Seems to be the worst case they created here.

Apart from that: What are you argueing for? That the current solution was the better or even ideal one?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

More or less than the current "solution"?
When you don’t know what scope “home” is so if something were to accidentally move Durkon outside of his home… yeah, it does. If “home” is absurdly narrow, then whatever the dwarven equivalent of stepping off the curb and into the street when checking your mail could be dangerous.


Apart from that: What are you argueing for? That the current solution was the better or even ideal one?
I’m not making any formal arguments here. This is all a tangent spawned by my comment on the scope of definition of the word “home”.

In any case, there is no “solution.” It’s shaping up that the prophecy is purely descriptive. Durkon is not causing the death and destruction to come to his homeland by returning home. He is just happening to return home at the same time the death and destruction reaches him.

[137beth]

Durkon spends a decade or two learning about human lands. Eventually he decides that he should learn more about how humans live a settled life. He establishes a new domocile in a human settlement to better do just that. As more years go by, he can’t help but think of this new dwelling as his home. Eventually, he goes out grocery shopping or to visit a sick human friend, and then returns home, and somehow sets in motion a chain of events that leads to the destruction of his former home.

Not likely, given that he constantly expresses desire to return to his original home.

[KoboldRevenge]

One way he could die in GLORIOUS!Battle, is he dies when in combat with the invading tree roots. though i don't how he might die unless the tree is especialy slivery.:smallwink:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Not likely, given that he constantly expresses desire to return to his original home.
Well, he hasn’t settled, so of course he doesn’t think of anyplace else as “home” yet.

Bouts of homesickness didn’t stop me from eventually thinking of my college dorm room as “home” for eight and a half months out of the year. When you have enough of your stuff and many friends all in one place, that place will become your home, and it doesn’t even require you to stop thinking of your previous home as home, either. Hence the phrase “home away from home.” Even if people don’t always mean it.

Oh, and lets throw in the possibility that Durkon’s attitude has nothing to do with it. If the prophecy simply considers home to be a place definable by latitude and longitude where you keep your stuff and sleep at night at least 80% of the time, then Durkon would create a new home by settling regardless of what he thought about it.

Ultimate point being is that if the prophecy could be circumvented (which it can’t), then you not only need to kick him out of dwarven homelands, but also make sure he never settles.

[SPoD]

More or less than the current "solution"?

Now they do not even have a pre-warning. Seems to be the worst case they created here.

Probability is not the only factor here. There's also compassion for Durkon himself. If they weren't worried about how Durkon's life would turn out, they could just kill him and bury his body elsewhere. But they clearly DO care, because they're not bad people.

What you're suggesting is essentially imprisonment, even if Durkon knows why it has to be done. With an exile, Durkon can still lead a rich full life (and is doing just that). The high priest of Thor is still Good; he can't condemn Durkon to lifelong incarceration if he can come up with a plausible alternative. And he did, so that's what he's trying.

Is it the most effective way to prevent the prophecy? Maybe. Maybe not. He doesn't know. But it is the only method that his conscience will allow.

[Ancalagon]

Look how happy he is with the current solution. Given it's Durkon and a proper Dwarf, he would be happy to be able to live in his dwarven city.

Imprisonment? But in a golden... hum... stony... cage. No. City. He'd be where he wants to be with friends and family (well, his uncle has to visit).

Sending him away is the cheap solution. They could have left Durkon where he was and inquired further what "home" means. They did not bother and went on drinking beer. Durkon now has to live in the human lands where he really, really does not want to be.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Look how happy he is with the current solution.
Yeah. Surrounded by friends and participating in their lives and community. Performing his duty to help save the world. Sure, it’s not his first choice, but he’s got enough going for him to make it almost worth putting up with with a psychopathic halfling.


Given it's Durkon and a proper Dwarf, he would be happy to be able to live in his dwarven city.

Imprisonment? But in a golden... hum... stony... cage. No. City. He'd be where he wants to be with friends and family (well, his uncle has to visit).
So his friends and family would be holding all their birthday parties and weddings and other events in his cage? Has it occurred to you that he wants to be home because that he can actually participate in the community? I can think of few things worse than having your community close by while you are restrained on the sidelines, forbidden from full participation. It’s the kind of thing that really makes a person bitter.


Sending him away is the cheap solution. They could have left Durkon where he was and inquired further what "home" means.
Assuming that’s even possible. Prophecies tend to be a bit more twitchy than that.


Durkon now has to live in the human lands where he really, really does not want to be.
If he were still so upset about being in the human lands, I’d expect him to still be the surly thing when Roy first met him. He’s found the human lands to be a lot better place since then. He might prefer to be in dwarven lands. But that doesn’t make the current situation the height of his misery.

[Ancalagon]

Yeah. Surrounded by friends and participating in their lives and community. Performing his duty to help save the world. Sure, it’s not his first choice, but he’s got enough going for him to make it almost worth putting up with with a psychopathic halfling.

Hum. You must be reading a different comic than me. Durkon HATES the world he lives in. He dislikes Belkar and the only real friend he has is Roy. You could argue he also likes Elan because everyone likes Elan. He surely is no real friend with Haley.


So his friends and family would be holding all their birthday parties and weddings and other events in his cage?

What "cage" are you and Spod keep talking about? His home is a dwarven city. Lots of people never leave their city in their lives and never notice there's a bigger world out there. Durkon wants stone around him, friends, family and good beer. That cage you imagine simply is no "cage".


Assuming that’s even possible. Prophecies tend to be a bit more twitchy than that.

That might be. It's even likely as this IS a story and it would not have been brought up if you could cheat it easily. But the High Clerics cannot know this is a story. The point is, they did not even bother to try.
Not once. Not short. And all concerns that were uttered were gone after two sentences and another beer. They did not care a lot. They went for the fast & quick solution to solve their current problem. Byebye, Durkon.


If he were still so upset about being in the human lands, I’d expect him to still be the surly thing when Roy first met him. He’s found the human lands to be a lot better place since then

Have I been imagining this or did he tell that dwarf chick he met a while ago he hates the lands where he is? He hates the beer. He writes a letter home as his BIG WISH and is utterly happy to learn he will be allowed back in (even if he is dead). All that does not seem like he likes the open world.
He also does not have many friends. If you look at the order, you see he's no friend with V (Darth V arch), he's suspicious of the chaotic thief, he surely does not like Belkar (who is a murderer), no idea on Elan... your "big group of good friends" simply does not exist.

[hamishspence]

What "cage" are you and Spod keep talking about? His home is a dwarven city. Lots of people never leave their city in their lives and never notice there's a bigger world out there. Durkon wants stone around him, friends, family and good beer. That cage you imagine simply is no "cage".

It can be interpreted, that "home" is his house- so even if he doesn't leave the city, he may bring disaster.

That said, I'm not sure if it was meant that way.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It can be interpreted, that "home" is his house- so even if he doesn't leave the city, he may bring disaster.

That said, I'm not sure if it was meant that way.
The high priest certainly isn’t going to take that chance. Hence the comment on returning home after getting food as well as not letting Durkon “go home and pack [his] stuff up.”

Alternatively, home can also be interpreted as where the heart is, so Durkon’s real home is in his chest. If that’s the case, he’d have to become Undead or something similar in order to leave home so he can return it.

[Ancalagon]

It can be interpreted, that "home" is his house- so even if he doesn't leave the city, he may bring disaster.

That said, I'm not sure if it was meant that way.

Me neither. And neither are the High Priests and everyone. It might very well be it is meant this way. The High Priests, and this is what Shhalahr is argueing, at least as I got it, did not take the chance and just threw him out without letting him pick up his stuff.

My point is they did not even bother to investigate what was meant. They did not even spare a week of "not letting him go home" to even TRY to found out what was meant.
Those prophecies (in stories) usually are NOT that mundane that they talk about "going from the bar to his house" about home, but more meaning "if he comes back to the country/city".

So it might very well be Durkon could have stayed in the city, fighting trees, drinking beer, doing dwarf-stuff. We don't know. Because no one cared enough to try to find out. They could have exiled him anyway.

And even THEN it would have been a smarter choice to tell him what all this was about as he would KNOW he's doing a sacrifice and whatnot (and maybe could warn Roy NOT to bring him home after his death; Durkon has enough duty in his bones to do that).

[Souhiro]

This has been discused even in the Wikipedia.

Just saying to Durkon the truth would be way more efective than the prank. I'm sure that he never would try to come back to dwarftown, and even would buy a Shrouds of Disintegration (a magic item that dissintegrates the dead body it envelopes) and wear it as a cloak, so when Durkon would die, he would die for good and never would come back.

But you know... prophecies are meant to be fulfilled by morons who try to be smart.


PD: Sorry for my awful grammar. I'm an evil spaniard from the vile Spain

[Darthteej]

PD: Sorry for my awful grammar. I'm an evil spaniard from the vile Spain

No... one, cares if you're a spaniard or not. At least not in the U.S. Midwest.

Personally, though, I agree that this is really, really stupid. All the clerics of Odin have done is be the self-fulfillment of a self-fulfilling prophecy.